Should you be able to que for group arenas?

ZaroktheImmortal

You know since they're meant for groups and all.

Lady_Galadhiel

Yes

I think this should have been implemented in the game already
Sometimes it can be a pain to find people for DSA and BRP in guilds or zone chat.

oddbasket

Yes

Why not? They are simply more time consuming extended dungeons.

Mariusghost84

Yes

Absolutely yes. that would be wonderful.

allhailskippy

Yes

I'd be curious to hear the arguments against this. Because as far as I can tell, there's no downside to adding this feature.

Xuhora

No

only if everybody that signs in via group finder has to sign a contract never to complain or call for nerfs for the arenas in the forums

allhailskippy

Yes

Xuhora wrote: »

only if everybody that signs in via group finder has to sign a contract never to complain or call for nerfs for the arenas in the forums

If you limit the content they work on to things that nobody will complain about, they'd never work on anything again.

That is a very weak argument against.

Xuhora

No

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

only if everybody that signs in via group finder has to sign a contract never to complain or call for nerfs for the arenas in the forums

If you limit the content they work on to things that nobody will complain about, they'd never work on anything again.

That is a very weak argument against.

i think you dont get my point. history has proofen that raidfinders lead to the demise of raids. why?
because if you give the players the ability to queue for harder content with other people you have to guarantee a successrate, otherwise the users of said findertool are complaining.

as it is right now, a lot of people are creating threads about wanting to have a groupfinder
as it will be, even more people complaining that they cannot succeed while using the groupfinder
will lead to, ZOS nerfing existing trials and arenas, while creating new trials arenas easier from scratch, so that the complaints stop

did it happen before? Hell yeah, have you been arround as LFR function in WoW has been implemented and have you seen what happen to the raids that were created in the following expansions?

it is not a "very weak argument against" it is the strongest argument against, since i enjoy the difficulty of our arenas and trials (they could be a little harder, but in now way easier) so i will stand forever against this trial or arena finder

allhailskippy

Yes

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

only if everybody that signs in via group finder has to sign a contract never to complain or call for nerfs for the arenas in the forums

If you limit the content they work on to things that nobody will complain about, they'd never work on anything again.

That is a very weak argument against.

i think you dont get my point. history has proofen that raidfinders lead to the demise of raids. why?
because if you give the players the ability to queue for harder content with other people you have to guarantee a successrate, otherwise the users of said findertool are complaining.

as it is right now, a lot of people are creating threads about wanting to have a groupfinder
as it will be, even more people complaining that they cannot succeed while using the groupfinder
will lead to, ZOS nerfing existing trials and arenas, while creating new trials arenas easier from scratch, so that the complaints stop

did it happen before? Hell yeah, have you been arround as LFR function in WoW has been implemented and have you seen what happen to the raids that were created in the following expansions?

it is not a "very weak argument against" it is the strongest argument against, since i enjoy the difficulty of our arenas and trials (they could be a little harder, but in now way easier) so i will stand forever against this trial or arena finder

So you want to gate access to your hard content by keeping it more difficult for everyone to participate? Sounds like a pretty elitist attitude to me.

It also sounds like it goes against the general pattern of development in this game. They've nerfed lots of the current trials, and they don't have a group finder. So why do you think the arenas are safe?

I for one look forward to the new arena group finder. I also look forward to them nerfing them to the ground.

Xuhora

No

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

only if everybody that signs in via group finder has to sign a contract never to complain or call for nerfs for the arenas in the forums

If you limit the content they work on to things that nobody will complain about, they'd never work on anything again.

That is a very weak argument against.

i think you dont get my point. history has proofen that raidfinders lead to the demise of raids. why?
because if you give the players the ability to queue for harder content with other people you have to guarantee a successrate, otherwise the users of said findertool are complaining.

as it is right now, a lot of people are creating threads about wanting to have a groupfinder
as it will be, even more people complaining that they cannot succeed while using the groupfinder
will lead to, ZOS nerfing existing trials and arenas, while creating new trials arenas easier from scratch, so that the complaints stop

did it happen before? Hell yeah, have you been arround as LFR function in WoW has been implemented and have you seen what happen to the raids that were created in the following expansions?

it is not a "very weak argument against" it is the strongest argument against, since i enjoy the difficulty of our arenas and trials (they could be a little harder, but in now way easier) so i will stand forever against this trial or arena finder

So you want to gate access to your hard content by keeping it more difficult for everyone to participate? Sounds like a pretty elitist attitude to me.

It also sounds like it goes against the general pattern of development in this game. They've nerfed lots of the current trials, and they don't have a group finder. So why do you think the arenas are safe?

I for one look forward to the new arena group finder. I also look forward to them nerfing them to the ground.

okay, cool
then our discussion is hereby over, since we will not find common ground and by throwing arround names like "elitist" and such we will never have a discussion that is of worth for me. have a good one

allhailskippy

Yes

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

only if everybody that signs in via group finder has to sign a contract never to complain or call for nerfs for the arenas in the forums

If you limit the content they work on to things that nobody will complain about, they'd never work on anything again.

That is a very weak argument against.

i think you dont get my point. history has proofen that raidfinders lead to the demise of raids. why?
because if you give the players the ability to queue for harder content with other people you have to guarantee a successrate, otherwise the users of said findertool are complaining.

as it is right now, a lot of people are creating threads about wanting to have a groupfinder
as it will be, even more people complaining that they cannot succeed while using the groupfinder
will lead to, ZOS nerfing existing trials and arenas, while creating new trials arenas easier from scratch, so that the complaints stop

did it happen before? Hell yeah, have you been arround as LFR function in WoW has been implemented and have you seen what happen to the raids that were created in the following expansions?

it is not a "very weak argument against" it is the strongest argument against, since i enjoy the difficulty of our arenas and trials (they could be a little harder, but in now way easier) so i will stand forever against this trial or arena finder

So you want to gate access to your hard content by keeping it more difficult for everyone to participate? Sounds like a pretty elitist attitude to me.

It also sounds like it goes against the general pattern of development in this game. They've nerfed lots of the current trials, and they don't have a group finder. So why do you think the arenas are safe?

I for one look forward to the new arena group finder. I also look forward to them nerfing them to the ground.

okay, cool
then our discussion is hereby over, since we will not find common ground and by throwing arround names like "elitist" and such we will never have a discussion that is of worth for me. have a good one

I can think of few other terms that describes wanting to have content that is accessible to only you, and your friends. While keeping it more difficult for others to access. Backed up by you ending the discussion as 'not being of worth to you'.

Also, I feel you're correct. We probably won't come to a middle ground on this issue.

I will grant that you did give an argument against though. It's just not one that I agree with.

MooseKnuckles88

I don't see the problem with allowing it to be a queue-able option honestly. What harm does it cause to anyone? How is it any different than running a 4 man dungeon or battleground with a pre-made team?

Xuhora

No

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

only if everybody that signs in via group finder has to sign a contract never to complain or call for nerfs for the arenas in the forums

If you limit the content they work on to things that nobody will complain about, they'd never work on anything again.

That is a very weak argument against.

i think you dont get my point. history has proofen that raidfinders lead to the demise of raids. why?
because if you give the players the ability to queue for harder content with other people you have to guarantee a successrate, otherwise the users of said findertool are complaining.

as it is right now, a lot of people are creating threads about wanting to have a groupfinder
as it will be, even more people complaining that they cannot succeed while using the groupfinder
will lead to, ZOS nerfing existing trials and arenas, while creating new trials arenas easier from scratch, so that the complaints stop

did it happen before? Hell yeah, have you been arround as LFR function in WoW has been implemented and have you seen what happen to the raids that were created in the following expansions?

it is not a "very weak argument against" it is the strongest argument against, since i enjoy the difficulty of our arenas and trials (they could be a little harder, but in now way easier) so i will stand forever against this trial or arena finder

So you want to gate access to your hard content by keeping it more difficult for everyone to participate? Sounds like a pretty elitist attitude to me.

It also sounds like it goes against the general pattern of development in this game. They've nerfed lots of the current trials, and they don't have a group finder. So why do you think the arenas are safe?

I for one look forward to the new arena group finder. I also look forward to them nerfing them to the ground.

okay, cool
then our discussion is hereby over, since we will not find common ground and by throwing arround names like "elitist" and such we will never have a discussion that is of worth for me. have a good one

I can think of few other terms that describes wanting to have content that is accessible to only you, and your friends. While keeping it more difficult for others to access. Backed up by you ending the discussion as 'not being of worth to you'.

Also, I feel you're correct. We probably won't come to a middle ground on this issue.

I will grant that you did give an argument against though. It's just not one that I agree with.

i just hate a discussion where one of the participants makes assumptions... its not the common way a discussion is held...
first: me and my friends, we are 5 so we still need 7 others. i regularly search for these 7 guys via /z in craglorn.
second: i hate the term "elitist" since it comes from the assumption that i run a progress trial guild with 500 members to pick and choose from while this is not true. Further i dont even know what "elitist" means exactly, it just feels like an insult the average forummember uses when someone likes hard content.

access to trials is not gated, it just comes with effort. you need to stand there, you need to type the same sentence tenfold, you need to talk to all the replies, you need to type whole explenations during the trial... a trial or arenafinder shortcuts this effort and puts together 12 people with so much variables that are unknown (skill, sets, mechanics, understanding of the role, understanding of the game) that it will lead to what i described in an earlier comment.

what would have been the correct way of a discussion is a counter argument to my point that is valid. i dont consider "gatekeeping" a valid point, since there is none. its just effort that has to be made, same goes for a completion of a vet trial or a vet arena. i mean imagine a group where the members dont want to put in some effort to find themself a group via /z, can you imagine what else they dont want to put effort into?

i propose you a "middlepoint" which would be okay for me: do you know the "premade group" finder of WoW? its a list where someone can put in name and type of activity and then list the group onto the groupfinder. everyone then can apply to the group and need to be accepted or declined.
I fear that is too "elitist" for you, but in practice there are so many groups in this finder which are "just for fun" "just for gear" "chill group" "no voice, be chill" etc. while there are the others that are high end groups.

VaranisArano

I can see a few considerations for why not.

Arenas were designed for premade groups, not groups of randoms.

1. Premade groups can typically handle higher difficulty content and mechanics that require some communication better than random groups. If ZOS officially adds a queue for random to join arenas, then they have to provide support for randoms to be able to complete future arenas, which probably means lower difficulty. Is that something that's desirable for the Arena-running community?

2. One of the reasons for the random dungeon queue is to backfill groups when someone leaves. How does the arena-running community feel about queueing for an arena and then getting stuck in a partially completed run?

3. The Dungeon groupfinder doesn't have any requirements beyond CP, and we all know that lots of people queue up for content they can't handle. A frequent piece of advice for players frustrated with that is "then make a premade group" because premade groups allow you to screen for players of a certain competency or playstyle. How does the arena-running community feel about being grouped with players of random ability and playstyles for content that's more time and more effort than your regular normal/vet dungeon?

Even if the answer is, "Well, it wouldn't bother me," I think it's worth considering the impact that an Arena trialfinder is likely to have on arena-running. There are a lot of pros: it's a lot easier to fond each other for runs without spamming zone chat, for one. There are also some potential cons that we can identify from how the Dungeon Groupfinder works that's worth thinking about.

allhailskippy

Yes

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

only if everybody that signs in via group finder has to sign a contract never to complain or call for nerfs for the arenas in the forums

If you limit the content they work on to things that nobody will complain about, they'd never work on anything again.

That is a very weak argument against.

i think you dont get my point. history has proofen that raidfinders lead to the demise of raids. why?
because if you give the players the ability to queue for harder content with other people you have to guarantee a successrate, otherwise the users of said findertool are complaining.

as it is right now, a lot of people are creating threads about wanting to have a groupfinder
as it will be, even more people complaining that they cannot succeed while using the groupfinder
will lead to, ZOS nerfing existing trials and arenas, while creating new trials arenas easier from scratch, so that the complaints stop

did it happen before? Hell yeah, have you been arround as LFR function in WoW has been implemented and have you seen what happen to the raids that were created in the following expansions?

it is not a "very weak argument against" it is the strongest argument against, since i enjoy the difficulty of our arenas and trials (they could be a little harder, but in now way easier) so i will stand forever against this trial or arena finder

So you want to gate access to your hard content by keeping it more difficult for everyone to participate? Sounds like a pretty elitist attitude to me.

It also sounds like it goes against the general pattern of development in this game. They've nerfed lots of the current trials, and they don't have a group finder. So why do you think the arenas are safe?

I for one look forward to the new arena group finder. I also look forward to them nerfing them to the ground.

okay, cool
then our discussion is hereby over, since we will not find common ground and by throwing arround names like "elitist" and such we will never have a discussion that is of worth for me. have a good one

I can think of few other terms that describes wanting to have content that is accessible to only you, and your friends. While keeping it more difficult for others to access. Backed up by you ending the discussion as 'not being of worth to you'.

Also, I feel you're correct. We probably won't come to a middle ground on this issue.

I will grant that you did give an argument against though. It's just not one that I agree with.

i just hate a discussion where one of the participants makes assumptions... its not the common way a discussion is held...
first: me and my friends, we are 5 so we still need 7 others. i regularly search for these 7 guys via /z in craglorn.
second: i hate the term "elitist" since it comes from the assumption that i run a progress trial guild with 500 members to pick and choose from while this is not true. Further i dont even know what "elitist" means exactly, it just feels like an insult the average forummember uses when someone likes hard content.

access to trials is not gated, it just comes with effort. you need to stand there, you need to type the same sentence tenfold, you need to talk to all the replies, you need to type whole explenations during the trial... a trial or arenafinder shortcuts this effort and puts together 12 people with so much variables that are unknown (skill, sets, mechanics, understanding of the role, understanding of the game) that it will lead to what i described in an earlier comment.

what would have been the correct way of a discussion is a counter argument to my point that is valid. i dont consider "gatekeeping" a valid point, since there is none. its just effort that has to be made, same goes for a completion of a vet trial or a vet arena. i mean imagine a group where the members dont want to put in some effort to find themself a group via /z, can you imagine what else they dont want to put effort into?

i propose you a "middlepoint" which would be okay for me: do you know the "premade group" finder of WoW? its a list where someone can put in name and type of activity and then list the group onto the groupfinder. everyone then can apply to the group and need to be accepted or declined.
I fear that is too "elitist" for you, but in practice there are so many groups in this finder which are "just for fun" "just for gear" "chill group" "no voice, be chill" etc. while there are the others that are high end groups.

Couple of points.

Elitist: "a person who believes that a society or system should be led by an elite."
Elite: "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society."

By saying that you don't want people to be able to group easily because you feel they won't be able to complete content is an elitist attitude. Maybe you don't feel that's the case. But that's how it comes off when you say these things.

Second point.

Arenas are not Trials

Arena's in ESO are 4 man content. There are 2 of them. Dragonstar Arena and Blackrose Prison. That is all.
They require the same group makeup as dungeons, however they are longer content than dungeons.

You seem to be talking about trials.

I do not expect we will ever have a group finder for trials. At least not in the foreseeable future. Not because they would grand access, but because I feel that it might be beyond the current dev teams capacity to make work correctly.

The groupfinder already has difficulty with groups of 4. So I don't expect they will be adding a 12 man version of it any time soon.

Xuhora wrote: »

access to trials is not gated, it just comes with effort. you need to stand there, you need to type the same sentence tenfold, you need to talk to all the replies, you need to type whole explenations during the trial... a trial or arenafinder shortcuts this effort and puts together 12 people with so much variables that are unknown

This is an argument FOR a groupfinder. That experience is awful, and you are still left with a PUG. Where there is no guarantee of success.

Third.

The idea of a group finder. Not elitist at all. Opens access to all types of groups. Sets expectations for that group. This sounds a lot like how guilds are currently being used. If these are essentially one and done type events, I can see them being very useful (and not elitist at all).

And speaking of mis-conceptions. You assume that I also don't like hard content. I absolutely do. I don't think that other people should be prevented from trying it though for fear that I won't have it anymore.

A perfect example of this is Frostvault. I enjoyed the challenge it gave. Last patch, they nerfed it to death.
Rather than be upset, I was glad. Because now it's more accessible to some of my other friends.

Will I miss the harder version? A bit. But there's good sides to both versions.

BXR_Lonestar

No

I voted no, but it is a qualified no. If we're talking normal? Sure, use the dungeon finder for that. Why not? I'm pretty sure me and my gf could 2 man NDSA with our petsorcs.

But if we're talking veteran, then the answer is a resounding no. Having done and failed several arenas on vet due to time constraints alone (my core team has 1 player in every US timezone), I can tell you that the arenas are just too long and way too mechanically complicated to think that a matchmaking system is going to work. 4 Random players not communicating are simply just going to quit out of frustration, and it is not going to lead to good results. Teams that are serious about trying to make a run to finish it simply aren't going to want to just pick up a random player for a random role for an arena run that is likely going to be a significant time investment in order to finish. In that situation, its better to try to do an LFG in guilds to make sure the player or 2 that you pick up are committed to taking some time to complete the content and that they have mics and are capable of communicating.

Overall, if they had dungeonfinder for vet arenas, I can see it going very poorly (i.e., I can already hear complaints about people not queing for it), and so I'd rather them just put their resources elsewhere. If it was strictly limited to normal so that players can actually learn about the arenas before trying to do them on vet? Absolutely no problem with that.

Xuhora

No

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

only if everybody that signs in via group finder has to sign a contract never to complain or call for nerfs for the arenas in the forums

If you limit the content they work on to things that nobody will complain about, they'd never work on anything again.

That is a very weak argument against.

i think you dont get my point. history has proofen that raidfinders lead to the demise of raids. why?
because if you give the players the ability to queue for harder content with other people you have to guarantee a successrate, otherwise the users of said findertool are complaining.

as it is right now, a lot of people are creating threads about wanting to have a groupfinder
as it will be, even more people complaining that they cannot succeed while using the groupfinder
will lead to, ZOS nerfing existing trials and arenas, while creating new trials arenas easier from scratch, so that the complaints stop

did it happen before? Hell yeah, have you been arround as LFR function in WoW has been implemented and have you seen what happen to the raids that were created in the following expansions?

it is not a "very weak argument against" it is the strongest argument against, since i enjoy the difficulty of our arenas and trials (they could be a little harder, but in now way easier) so i will stand forever against this trial or arena finder

So you want to gate access to your hard content by keeping it more difficult for everyone to participate? Sounds like a pretty elitist attitude to me.

It also sounds like it goes against the general pattern of development in this game. They've nerfed lots of the current trials, and they don't have a group finder. So why do you think the arenas are safe?

I for one look forward to the new arena group finder. I also look forward to them nerfing them to the ground.

okay, cool
then our discussion is hereby over, since we will not find common ground and by throwing arround names like "elitist" and such we will never have a discussion that is of worth for me. have a good one

I can think of few other terms that describes wanting to have content that is accessible to only you, and your friends. While keeping it more difficult for others to access. Backed up by you ending the discussion as 'not being of worth to you'.

Also, I feel you're correct. We probably won't come to a middle ground on this issue.

I will grant that you did give an argument against though. It's just not one that I agree with.

i just hate a discussion where one of the participants makes assumptions... its not the common way a discussion is held...
first: me and my friends, we are 5 so we still need 7 others. i regularly search for these 7 guys via /z in craglorn.
second: i hate the term "elitist" since it comes from the assumption that i run a progress trial guild with 500 members to pick and choose from while this is not true. Further i dont even know what "elitist" means exactly, it just feels like an insult the average forummember uses when someone likes hard content.

access to trials is not gated, it just comes with effort. you need to stand there, you need to type the same sentence tenfold, you need to talk to all the replies, you need to type whole explenations during the trial... a trial or arenafinder shortcuts this effort and puts together 12 people with so much variables that are unknown (skill, sets, mechanics, understanding of the role, understanding of the game) that it will lead to what i described in an earlier comment.

what would have been the correct way of a discussion is a counter argument to my point that is valid. i dont consider "gatekeeping" a valid point, since there is none. its just effort that has to be made, same goes for a completion of a vet trial or a vet arena. i mean imagine a group where the members dont want to put in some effort to find themself a group via /z, can you imagine what else they dont want to put effort into?

i propose you a "middlepoint" which would be okay for me: do you know the "premade group" finder of WoW? its a list where someone can put in name and type of activity and then list the group onto the groupfinder. everyone then can apply to the group and need to be accepted or declined.
I fear that is too "elitist" for you, but in practice there are so many groups in this finder which are "just for fun" "just for gear" "chill group" "no voice, be chill" etc. while there are the others that are high end groups.

Couple of points.

Elitist: "a person who believes that a society or system should be led by an elite."
Elite: "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society."

By saying that you don't want people to be able to group easily because you feel they won't be able to complete content is an elitist attitude. Maybe you don't feel that's the case. But that's how it comes off when you say these things.

Second point.

Arenas are not Trials

Arena's in ESO are 4 man content. There are 2 of them. Dragonstar Arena and Blackrose Prison. That is all.
They require the same group makeup as dungeons, however they are longer content than dungeons.

You seem to be talking about trials.

I do not expect we will ever have a group finder for trials. At least not in the foreseeable future. Not because they would grand access, but because I feel that it might be beyond the current dev teams capacity to make work correctly.

The groupfinder already has difficulty with groups of 4. So I don't expect they will be adding a 12 man version of it any time soon.

Xuhora wrote: »

access to trials is not gated, it just comes with effort. you need to stand there, you need to type the same sentence tenfold, you need to talk to all the replies, you need to type whole explenations during the trial... a trial or arenafinder shortcuts this effort and puts together 12 people with so much variables that are unknown

This is an argument FOR a groupfinder. That experience is awful, and you are still left with a PUG. Where there is no guarantee of success.

Third.

The idea of a group finder. Not elitist at all. Opens access to all types of groups. Sets expectations for that group. This sounds a lot like how guilds are currently being used. If these are essentially one and done type events, I can see them being very useful (and not elitist at all).

And speaking of mis-conceptions. You assume that I also don't like hard content. I absolutely do. I don't think that other people should be prevented from trying it though for fear that I won't have it anymore.

A perfect example of this is Frostvault. I enjoyed the challenge it gave. Last patch, they nerfed it to death.
Rather than be upset, I was glad. Because now it's more accessible to some of my other friends.

Will I miss the harder version? A bit. But there's good sides to both versions.

oh come one... a society or system led by an elite, a group that is superios in ferms of qualities? we all have the same ground here, we all have to search via /z or in guilds. i would understand your "elitism" claim about me when i had some advantages in searching for a group and not allowing everyone to use that advantage. that is not the case, so stop using the word....

does not matter if arena or trial if we are talking vet they are both hard and long (huehuehue) and would need adjustment to guarantee a certain success rate with the finder system that we have now

"i like hard content" followed by "i was glad (that they nerfed frostvault)" bravo! i missed your follow-up of that sentence, i have to correct my statement.
i would be happier if i could train with my friends to beat something on a set difficulty than i would be that my friends can now complete it without me because its easier

allhailskippy

Yes

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

only if everybody that signs in via group finder has to sign a contract never to complain or call for nerfs for the arenas in the forums

If you limit the content they work on to things that nobody will complain about, they'd never work on anything again.

That is a very weak argument against.

i think you dont get my point. history has proofen that raidfinders lead to the demise of raids. why?
because if you give the players the ability to queue for harder content with other people you have to guarantee a successrate, otherwise the users of said findertool are complaining.

as it is right now, a lot of people are creating threads about wanting to have a groupfinder
as it will be, even more people complaining that they cannot succeed while using the groupfinder
will lead to, ZOS nerfing existing trials and arenas, while creating new trials arenas easier from scratch, so that the complaints stop

did it happen before? Hell yeah, have you been arround as LFR function in WoW has been implemented and have you seen what happen to the raids that were created in the following expansions?

it is not a "very weak argument against" it is the strongest argument against, since i enjoy the difficulty of our arenas and trials (they could be a little harder, but in now way easier) so i will stand forever against this trial or arena finder

So you want to gate access to your hard content by keeping it more difficult for everyone to participate? Sounds like a pretty elitist attitude to me.

It also sounds like it goes against the general pattern of development in this game. They've nerfed lots of the current trials, and they don't have a group finder. So why do you think the arenas are safe?

I for one look forward to the new arena group finder. I also look forward to them nerfing them to the ground.

okay, cool
then our discussion is hereby over, since we will not find common ground and by throwing arround names like "elitist" and such we will never have a discussion that is of worth for me. have a good one

I can think of few other terms that describes wanting to have content that is accessible to only you, and your friends. While keeping it more difficult for others to access. Backed up by you ending the discussion as 'not being of worth to you'.

Also, I feel you're correct. We probably won't come to a middle ground on this issue.

I will grant that you did give an argument against though. It's just not one that I agree with.

i just hate a discussion where one of the participants makes assumptions... its not the common way a discussion is held...
first: me and my friends, we are 5 so we still need 7 others. i regularly search for these 7 guys via /z in craglorn.
second: i hate the term "elitist" since it comes from the assumption that i run a progress trial guild with 500 members to pick and choose from while this is not true. Further i dont even know what "elitist" means exactly, it just feels like an insult the average forummember uses when someone likes hard content.

access to trials is not gated, it just comes with effort. you need to stand there, you need to type the same sentence tenfold, you need to talk to all the replies, you need to type whole explenations during the trial... a trial or arenafinder shortcuts this effort and puts together 12 people with so much variables that are unknown (skill, sets, mechanics, understanding of the role, understanding of the game) that it will lead to what i described in an earlier comment.

what would have been the correct way of a discussion is a counter argument to my point that is valid. i dont consider "gatekeeping" a valid point, since there is none. its just effort that has to be made, same goes for a completion of a vet trial or a vet arena. i mean imagine a group where the members dont want to put in some effort to find themself a group via /z, can you imagine what else they dont want to put effort into?

i propose you a "middlepoint" which would be okay for me: do you know the "premade group" finder of WoW? its a list where someone can put in name and type of activity and then list the group onto the groupfinder. everyone then can apply to the group and need to be accepted or declined.
I fear that is too "elitist" for you, but in practice there are so many groups in this finder which are "just for fun" "just for gear" "chill group" "no voice, be chill" etc. while there are the others that are high end groups.

Couple of points.

Elitist: "a person who believes that a society or system should be led by an elite."
Elite: "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society."

By saying that you don't want people to be able to group easily because you feel they won't be able to complete content is an elitist attitude. Maybe you don't feel that's the case. But that's how it comes off when you say these things.

Second point.

Arenas are not Trials

Arena's in ESO are 4 man content. There are 2 of them. Dragonstar Arena and Blackrose Prison. That is all.
They require the same group makeup as dungeons, however they are longer content than dungeons.

You seem to be talking about trials.

I do not expect we will ever have a group finder for trials. At least not in the foreseeable future. Not because they would grand access, but because I feel that it might be beyond the current dev teams capacity to make work correctly.

The groupfinder already has difficulty with groups of 4. So I don't expect they will be adding a 12 man version of it any time soon.

Xuhora wrote: »

access to trials is not gated, it just comes with effort. you need to stand there, you need to type the same sentence tenfold, you need to talk to all the replies, you need to type whole explenations during the trial... a trial or arenafinder shortcuts this effort and puts together 12 people with so much variables that are unknown

This is an argument FOR a groupfinder. That experience is awful, and you are still left with a PUG. Where there is no guarantee of success.

Third.

The idea of a group finder. Not elitist at all. Opens access to all types of groups. Sets expectations for that group. This sounds a lot like how guilds are currently being used. If these are essentially one and done type events, I can see them being very useful (and not elitist at all).

And speaking of mis-conceptions. You assume that I also don't like hard content. I absolutely do. I don't think that other people should be prevented from trying it though for fear that I won't have it anymore.

A perfect example of this is Frostvault. I enjoyed the challenge it gave. Last patch, they nerfed it to death.
Rather than be upset, I was glad. Because now it's more accessible to some of my other friends.

Will I miss the harder version? A bit. But there's good sides to both versions.

oh come one... a society or system led by an elite, a group that is superios in ferms of qualities? we all have the same ground here, we all have to search via /z or in guilds. i would understand your "elitism" claim about me when i had some advantages in searching for a group and not allowing everyone to use that advantage. that is not the case, so stop using the word....

does not matter if arena or trial if we are talking vet they are both hard and long (huehuehue) and would need adjustment to guarantee a certain success rate with the finder system that we have now

"i like hard content" followed by "i was glad (that they nerfed frostvault) bravo!

It's an attitude, not access. Can we all use zone and guild chat? Yes. Is it effective? Not really.

You say that you are worried that if there are more people attempting the content, that they will nerf it.

Why would they nerf it?

Because you assume that people won't be able to complete it. But you can. Therefore, you are saying you are superior to the average player.

That is elitism.

When you use this argument to prevent easier access to content (via a group finder). This is what make you sound like an elitist.

Xuhora

No

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

only if everybody that signs in via group finder has to sign a contract never to complain or call for nerfs for the arenas in the forums

If you limit the content they work on to things that nobody will complain about, they'd never work on anything again.

That is a very weak argument against.

i think you dont get my point. history has proofen that raidfinders lead to the demise of raids. why?
because if you give the players the ability to queue for harder content with other people you have to guarantee a successrate, otherwise the users of said findertool are complaining.

as it is right now, a lot of people are creating threads about wanting to have a groupfinder
as it will be, even more people complaining that they cannot succeed while using the groupfinder
will lead to, ZOS nerfing existing trials and arenas, while creating new trials arenas easier from scratch, so that the complaints stop

did it happen before? Hell yeah, have you been arround as LFR function in WoW has been implemented and have you seen what happen to the raids that were created in the following expansions?

it is not a "very weak argument against" it is the strongest argument against, since i enjoy the difficulty of our arenas and trials (they could be a little harder, but in now way easier) so i will stand forever against this trial or arena finder

So you want to gate access to your hard content by keeping it more difficult for everyone to participate? Sounds like a pretty elitist attitude to me.

It also sounds like it goes against the general pattern of development in this game. They've nerfed lots of the current trials, and they don't have a group finder. So why do you think the arenas are safe?

I for one look forward to the new arena group finder. I also look forward to them nerfing them to the ground.

okay, cool
then our discussion is hereby over, since we will not find common ground and by throwing arround names like "elitist" and such we will never have a discussion that is of worth for me. have a good one

I can think of few other terms that describes wanting to have content that is accessible to only you, and your friends. While keeping it more difficult for others to access. Backed up by you ending the discussion as 'not being of worth to you'.

Also, I feel you're correct. We probably won't come to a middle ground on this issue.

I will grant that you did give an argument against though. It's just not one that I agree with.

i just hate a discussion where one of the participants makes assumptions... its not the common way a discussion is held...
first: me and my friends, we are 5 so we still need 7 others. i regularly search for these 7 guys via /z in craglorn.
second: i hate the term "elitist" since it comes from the assumption that i run a progress trial guild with 500 members to pick and choose from while this is not true. Further i dont even know what "elitist" means exactly, it just feels like an insult the average forummember uses when someone likes hard content.

access to trials is not gated, it just comes with effort. you need to stand there, you need to type the same sentence tenfold, you need to talk to all the replies, you need to type whole explenations during the trial... a trial or arenafinder shortcuts this effort and puts together 12 people with so much variables that are unknown (skill, sets, mechanics, understanding of the role, understanding of the game) that it will lead to what i described in an earlier comment.

what would have been the correct way of a discussion is a counter argument to my point that is valid. i dont consider "gatekeeping" a valid point, since there is none. its just effort that has to be made, same goes for a completion of a vet trial or a vet arena. i mean imagine a group where the members dont want to put in some effort to find themself a group via /z, can you imagine what else they dont want to put effort into?

i propose you a "middlepoint" which would be okay for me: do you know the "premade group" finder of WoW? its a list where someone can put in name and type of activity and then list the group onto the groupfinder. everyone then can apply to the group and need to be accepted or declined.
I fear that is too "elitist" for you, but in practice there are so many groups in this finder which are "just for fun" "just for gear" "chill group" "no voice, be chill" etc. while there are the others that are high end groups.

Couple of points.

Elitist: "a person who believes that a society or system should be led by an elite."
Elite: "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society."

By saying that you don't want people to be able to group easily because you feel they won't be able to complete content is an elitist attitude. Maybe you don't feel that's the case. But that's how it comes off when you say these things.

Second point.

Arenas are not Trials

Arena's in ESO are 4 man content. There are 2 of them. Dragonstar Arena and Blackrose Prison. That is all.
They require the same group makeup as dungeons, however they are longer content than dungeons.

You seem to be talking about trials.

I do not expect we will ever have a group finder for trials. At least not in the foreseeable future. Not because they would grand access, but because I feel that it might be beyond the current dev teams capacity to make work correctly.

The groupfinder already has difficulty with groups of 4. So I don't expect they will be adding a 12 man version of it any time soon.

Xuhora wrote: »

access to trials is not gated, it just comes with effort. you need to stand there, you need to type the same sentence tenfold, you need to talk to all the replies, you need to type whole explenations during the trial... a trial or arenafinder shortcuts this effort and puts together 12 people with so much variables that are unknown

This is an argument FOR a groupfinder. That experience is awful, and you are still left with a PUG. Where there is no guarantee of success.

Third.

The idea of a group finder. Not elitist at all. Opens access to all types of groups. Sets expectations for that group. This sounds a lot like how guilds are currently being used. If these are essentially one and done type events, I can see them being very useful (and not elitist at all).

And speaking of mis-conceptions. You assume that I also don't like hard content. I absolutely do. I don't think that other people should be prevented from trying it though for fear that I won't have it anymore.

A perfect example of this is Frostvault. I enjoyed the challenge it gave. Last patch, they nerfed it to death.
Rather than be upset, I was glad. Because now it's more accessible to some of my other friends.

Will I miss the harder version? A bit. But there's good sides to both versions.

oh come one... a society or system led by an elite, a group that is superios in ferms of qualities? we all have the same ground here, we all have to search via /z or in guilds. i would understand your "elitism" claim about me when i had some advantages in searching for a group and not allowing everyone to use that advantage. that is not the case, so stop using the word....

does not matter if arena or trial if we are talking vet they are both hard and long (huehuehue) and would need adjustment to guarantee a certain success rate with the finder system that we have now

"i like hard content" followed by "i was glad (that they nerfed frostvault) bravo!

It's an attitude, not access. Can we all use zone and guild chat? Yes. Is it effective? Not really.

You say that you are worried that if there are more people attempting the content, that they will nerf it.

Why would they nerf it?

Because you assume that people won't be able to complete it. But you can. Therefore, you are saying you are superior to the average player.

That is elitism.

When you use this argument to prevent easier access to content (via a group finder). This is what make you sound like an elitist.

sigh... im out, a second time. this time i will stay out

Oreyn_Bearclaw

No

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

only if everybody that signs in via group finder has to sign a contract never to complain or call for nerfs for the arenas in the forums

If you limit the content they work on to things that nobody will complain about, they'd never work on anything again.

That is a very weak argument against.

i think you dont get my point. history has proofen that raidfinders lead to the demise of raids. why?
because if you give the players the ability to queue for harder content with other people you have to guarantee a successrate, otherwise the users of said findertool are complaining.

as it is right now, a lot of people are creating threads about wanting to have a groupfinder
as it will be, even more people complaining that they cannot succeed while using the groupfinder
will lead to, ZOS nerfing existing trials and arenas, while creating new trials arenas easier from scratch, so that the complaints stop

did it happen before? Hell yeah, have you been arround as LFR function in WoW has been implemented and have you seen what happen to the raids that were created in the following expansions?

it is not a "very weak argument against" it is the strongest argument against, since i enjoy the difficulty of our arenas and trials (they could be a little harder, but in now way easier) so i will stand forever against this trial or arena finder

So you want to gate access to your hard content by keeping it more difficult for everyone to participate? Sounds like a pretty elitist attitude to me.

It also sounds like it goes against the general pattern of development in this game. They've nerfed lots of the current trials, and they don't have a group finder. So why do you think the arenas are safe?

I for one look forward to the new arena group finder. I also look forward to them nerfing them to the ground.

okay, cool
then our discussion is hereby over, since we will not find common ground and by throwing arround names like "elitist" and such we will never have a discussion that is of worth for me. have a good one

I can think of few other terms that describes wanting to have content that is accessible to only you, and your friends. While keeping it more difficult for others to access. Backed up by you ending the discussion as 'not being of worth to you'.

Also, I feel you're correct. We probably won't come to a middle ground on this issue.

I will grant that you did give an argument against though. It's just not one that I agree with.

i just hate a discussion where one of the participants makes assumptions... its not the common way a discussion is held...
first: me and my friends, we are 5 so we still need 7 others. i regularly search for these 7 guys via /z in craglorn.
second: i hate the term "elitist" since it comes from the assumption that i run a progress trial guild with 500 members to pick and choose from while this is not true. Further i dont even know what "elitist" means exactly, it just feels like an insult the average forummember uses when someone likes hard content.

access to trials is not gated, it just comes with effort. you need to stand there, you need to type the same sentence tenfold, you need to talk to all the replies, you need to type whole explenations during the trial... a trial or arenafinder shortcuts this effort and puts together 12 people with so much variables that are unknown (skill, sets, mechanics, understanding of the role, understanding of the game) that it will lead to what i described in an earlier comment.

what would have been the correct way of a discussion is a counter argument to my point that is valid. i dont consider "gatekeeping" a valid point, since there is none. its just effort that has to be made, same goes for a completion of a vet trial or a vet arena. i mean imagine a group where the members dont want to put in some effort to find themself a group via /z, can you imagine what else they dont want to put effort into?

i propose you a "middlepoint" which would be okay for me: do you know the "premade group" finder of WoW? its a list where someone can put in name and type of activity and then list the group onto the groupfinder. everyone then can apply to the group and need to be accepted or declined.
I fear that is too "elitist" for you, but in practice there are so many groups in this finder which are "just for fun" "just for gear" "chill group" "no voice, be chill" etc. while there are the others that are high end groups.

Couple of points.

Elitist: "a person who believes that a society or system should be led by an elite."
Elite: "a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society."

By saying that you don't want people to be able to group easily because you feel they won't be able to complete content is an elitist attitude. Maybe you don't feel that's the case. But that's how it comes off when you say these things.

Second point.

Arenas are not Trials

Arena's in ESO are 4 man content. There are 2 of them. Dragonstar Arena and Blackrose Prison. That is all.
They require the same group makeup as dungeons, however they are longer content than dungeons.

You seem to be talking about trials.

I do not expect we will ever have a group finder for trials. At least not in the foreseeable future. Not because they would grand access, but because I feel that it might be beyond the current dev teams capacity to make work correctly.

The groupfinder already has difficulty with groups of 4. So I don't expect they will be adding a 12 man version of it any time soon.

Xuhora wrote: »

access to trials is not gated, it just comes with effort. you need to stand there, you need to type the same sentence tenfold, you need to talk to all the replies, you need to type whole explenations during the trial... a trial or arenafinder shortcuts this effort and puts together 12 people with so much variables that are unknown

This is an argument FOR a groupfinder. That experience is awful, and you are still left with a PUG. Where there is no guarantee of success.

Third.

The idea of a group finder. Not elitist at all. Opens access to all types of groups. Sets expectations for that group. This sounds a lot like how guilds are currently being used. If these are essentially one and done type events, I can see them being very useful (and not elitist at all).

And speaking of mis-conceptions. You assume that I also don't like hard content. I absolutely do. I don't think that other people should be prevented from trying it though for fear that I won't have it anymore.

A perfect example of this is Frostvault. I enjoyed the challenge it gave. Last patch, they nerfed it to death.
Rather than be upset, I was glad. Because now it's more accessible to some of my other friends.

Will I miss the harder version? A bit. But there's good sides to both versions.

oh come one... a society or system led by an elite, a group that is superios in ferms of qualities? we all have the same ground here, we all have to search via /z or in guilds. i would understand your "elitism" claim about me when i had some advantages in searching for a group and not allowing everyone to use that advantage. that is not the case, so stop using the word....

does not matter if arena or trial if we are talking vet they are both hard and long (huehuehue) and would need adjustment to guarantee a certain success rate with the finder system that we have now

"i like hard content" followed by "i was glad (that they nerfed frostvault) bravo!

It's an attitude, not access. Can we all use zone and guild chat? Yes. Is it effective? Not really.

You say that you are worried that if there are more people attempting the content, that they will nerf it.

Why would they nerf it?

Because you assume that people won't be able to complete it. But you can. Therefore, you are saying you are superior to the average player.

That is elitism.

When you use this argument to prevent easier access to content (via a group finder). This is what make you sound like an elitist.

ZOS keeps a lot of data on success/failure rates in Groupfinder. More than once, they have used this as a context for a nerf to specific content. Now, I have no idea how a VDSA failure rate in groupfinder would compare to say, VSCP or VMOS, but my instinct is that it would be particularly high. Both Arenas, BRP and VDSA, if nothing else, have mechanic heavy final bosses that can cause problems for people without voice communication. Arenas in particular are highly reliant on a very competent tank, something that has always plagued group finder.

I dont think it's elitist to suggest that opening up the arenas to GF could lead to nerfs, because again, my guess is that the failure rate on veteran would be VERY high. The other layer is that these arenas take longer than a lot of dungeons. Combined with the difficulty, I see other problems including excess vote kicking, difficulty in finding replacements, resulting in groups just throwing in the towel. It is certainly fair to suggest that this might not be healthy for the game.

Some content is just better suited to pre-made groups. If you want to put normal versions in the queue? Knock yourself out, but I think adding vet arenas to group finder would cause more trouble than its worth.

Also, if you find your self defining Elitist to other people very often, maybe stop and look inward for a few minutes.

To the OP: Not on Veteran Mode

MooseKnuckles88

Just because someone can queue for something doesn't mean they'll clear it, that's the case for a lot of newer players in vet DLC dungeons already. Also, I highly doubt any end game vetted tank would ever queue for vBRP expecting a quick clear (or maybe a clear at all). There are no guarantees for completion just as there are no guarantees for first or second place in battlegrounds or vet DLC dungeons, I really don't see why anyone would want to oppose someone wanting to gamble and try their luck in a queue-able arena. No one is forcing another to use this hypothetical tool, just like no one forces others to use any other existing group finders.

vivisectvib16_ESO

Yes

Yes, but I think only folks who have cleared the normal version should be allowed to queue for the vet version. They're way too mech heavy to have some random player going into business for themselves, or queuing as a fake tank/healer.

Kel

Yes

MooseKnuckles88 wrote: »

Just because someone can queue for something doesn't mean they'll clear it

Just because you're in a pre-made groups also doesn't mean you'll clear it.

I've tried joining groups asking randomly in chat, as per the usual way these groups are formed and with players I know as well.
Much like a group finder, these groups are hit and miss. Also running vDSA with guildies has been hit or miss. Assuming runs won't be completed because of some random nature goes with every run.

Options aren't a bad thing, and if you're already someone running in pre-made groups, this hurts you zero. Why not give the option to those who want it.
It's literally no skin off your nose 🤷‍♂️

allhailskippy

Yes

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Also, if you find your self defining Elitist to other people very often, maybe stop and look inward for a few minutes.

Xuhora wrote: »

Further i dont even know what "elitist" means exactly

In this case, It felt appropriate.

jssriot

Just thinking about how long it takes to complete these arenas with groups that are learning the mechanics and wondering why you people would want that hell brought down on you in PUG form. People bail on dungeon PUGs if people wipe more than once on a boss. You really think people will stick around for 2-3 hours of wiping? LOL.

allhailskippy

Yes

jssriot wrote: »

Just thinking about how long it takes to complete these arenas with groups that are learning the mechanics and wondering why you people would want that hell brought down on you in PUG form. People bail on dungeon PUGs if people wipe more than once on a boss. You really think people will stick around for 2-3 hours of wiping? LOL.

I think this is a fair point. There is a length component that may be accounted for. I'd say that there could be some text explaining that this is longer content, but I also know that a lot of people don't read the help text.. so I dunno.

That being said, I've been in groups in vet dungeons that took that hours too. Just the nature of PUG life.

Pulling people from Craglorn doesn't guarantee success either.

Amottica

No

allhailskippy wrote: »

Xuhora wrote: »

only if everybody that signs in via group finder has to sign a contract never to complain or call for nerfs for the arenas in the forums

If you limit the content they work on to things that nobody will complain about, they'd never work on anything again.

That is a very weak argument against.

Judging by threads I have seen for dungeons I would expect they are talking more about the poorly prepared players they would find in the GF and with that complain that the content is too difficult for a GF group to clear it. That seems to be a theme for dungeons.

xaraan

No

I'd actually say yes if population supports it, but if it's just going to create a bunch of angry people upset about sitting in an endless queue, then no.

VDoom1

Yes

Yes, this is a good idea.

I've never been able to do either DSA or BRP. There just doesn't seem to be much interest to do either when one asks in zone chat or in guilds.

Anonx31st

Yes

I believe you should, as long as a certain CP requirement is added for it. For a modern MMO, this feature should be baseline.

kargen27

Yes

I voted yes but I doubt it would get much use. I can see three people using it to grab a 4th on normal. Players might try using the queue a couple of times for vet but I share the opinion of others that it most of the time will not go well at all.

I would not use it. I use the dungeon finder some for specific pledges but the harder content I stick with guild mates. I like running with inexperienced/new players in some content and don't mind if we struggle and/or fail but I like to have at least the hope of finishing.
Even though I wouldn't use it I have no problem at all having a queue added to the game for people willing to try.

Trials I don't think will ever happen mainly because there is no set group dynamic. Sometimes you want two tanks and two healers. Other times one healer is fine. It varies even on the same trial.

What I would like to see (and I know why we will probably never get it) is a chat option for people looking for a trial group that can be seen in any zone. Would be nice if we didn't have to hang out in Craglorn while looking to run a trial.