Necromancer Gravelord Passive, over nerfed?

Drygon

stefj68 wrote: »

well so far zos always level things by lowering cealing and nerfing... instead of raising lowest class... well it might be a little too much but that was more easy to butcher necromancer, then boost 3-4 class to make them catch up!

Let us be real, we already skip mechanics due to high dps, no need to keep adjusting it higher and higher, also it will barely be any change for the necro taking into consideration that Elemental catalyst was buffed and that we have the new mythic Harpooner’s Wading Kilt.

Necro would have overperform if not for the nerf. (I'm saying this while I play necro)

Sangwyne

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Necromancer needed a nerf, it was the top DPS in trials and broken in PvP too. Still is.

You obviously don't understand how statistics work.

There built in execute is gone.

...And? DK is currently at the bottom of the DPS charts and doesn't even have an execute. Necro still has execute passives, broken skills (literally and figuratively), and will still be topping every tier list out there.

The class needs more nerfs. No more defending the most busted class in the game. Burn it all to the ground.

olsborg

Necromancer is just insanely strong in pvp, specially stamcro. They need a plethura of nerfs, but i would settle for mortal coil and spirit guardian nerfs. Specially the latter as 10% dmg mitigation and a great heal in one ability that lasts 16 seconds is just waow...

ghost_bg_ESO

good logic the class needs nerfs because it outperforms my favorite class... (good i have couple favorites).


i can speak about solo PvE: magcro has a good HoT with 2 skills combined literally can stay in most red except couple of one shots , most useful for solo if a person prefers less dynamic combat, also les dependent on lag because of this; and if hybrids ever become a thing can start to shine.

with magblade or magsorc with passive healing - they perform better in general... recently have fully reworked old messed NB to magblade from redguard to breton - have played a week with 10k(20k on magcro) health without see and was happily soloing dungeons to progress undaunted...

(and with all nerfs in PvE on magcro i start to hate stamcro too, despite i have one)

TheBonesXXX

The nerf is heavy handed.

TheBonesXXX

Sangwyne wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Necromancer needed a nerf, it was the top DPS in trials and broken in PvP too. Still is.

You obviously don't understand how statistics work.

There built in execute is gone.

...And? DK is currently at the bottom of the DPS charts and doesn't even have an execute. Necro still has execute passives, broken skills (literally and figuratively), and will still be topping every tier list out there.

The class needs more nerfs. No more defending the most busted class in the game. Burn it all to the ground.

If you're struggling as a DK in PvP... Then you're 100% built wrong. They're easy.

MrZeDark

Styxius wrote: »

Curious to see what people think regarding this change as this has been a common theme and function of Necromancer for a long time to help them compete with the execution that Nightblade provided in the past for example. Was this overnerfed? This was a 60% max which is rather high reduced to a 24% max assuming you slot every gravelord ability in the past only using 3-4 was common. What are your thoughts regarding this?

Yes I think it was over shot, with out providing more in another area. My build lost 18% crit front bar on execute. Which is truly a lot.. I mean we see builds dropping monster helms (dmg) for 2 crit helms - just to get ~2.x% more crit or for slime for ~3.x%% more crit (however you want to view the combo). So costing us 18+% crit in execute is a huge hit to DPS (at execute).

If you log on live and watch the DPS trend line, you'll notice that our massive DOT spec's get a little love from that execute crit. It however pales still to DMG gained by Executioner, NB's, reverse execute by sorc, even the VH Daggers bonus. If they are going to steal Crit from Necro (as an execute) they should at least give us an execute for Mag and Stam.

In the long fight, from 100-0% it never felt like a huge boost. But it certainly helped my necro's high numbers stay competitive at the end of the fight.

TheBonesXXX

MrZeDark wrote: »

Styxius wrote: »

Curious to see what people think regarding this change as this has been a common theme and function of Necromancer for a long time to help them compete with the execution that Nightblade provided in the past for example. Was this overnerfed? This was a 60% max which is rather high reduced to a 24% max assuming you slot every gravelord ability in the past only using 3-4 was common. What are your thoughts regarding this?

Yes I think it was over shot, with out providing more in another area. My build lost 18% crit front bar on execute. Which is truly a lot.. I mean we see builds dropping monster helms (dmg) for 2 crit helms - just to get ~2.x% more crit or for slime for ~3.x%% more crit (however you want to view the combo). So costing us 18+% crit in execute is a huge hit to DPS (at execute).

If you log on live and watch the DPS trend line, you'll notice that our massive DOT spec's get a little love from that execute crit. It however pales still to DMG gained by Executioner, NB's, reverse execute by sorc, even the VH Daggers bonus. If they are going to steal Crit from Necro (as an execute) they should at least give us an execute for Mag and Stam.

In the long fight, from 100-0% it never felt like a huge boost. But it certainly helped my necro's high numbers stay competitive at the end of the fight.

My builds are going to lose tons of crit.

There are better ways to tone down dps on necros.

YandereGirlfriend

As stated earlier in the thread, I would much rather lose the 3% from Mystic Siphon, the Penetration passive, AND the DoT passive than to have the class's signature passive ability dumpster'd in this fashion.

And again observe that is ZOS is crushing Critical Chance across the board... somehow Nightblades and their Assassination passives have escaped completely unharmed.

Of course, I would much prefer to see the Death Knell passive restored than to have a race to the bottom in class Critical Chance annihilation but, as they say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander....

Sangwyne

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

If you're struggling as a DK in PvP... Then you're 100% built wrong. They're easy.

Sure, buddy. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/568150/pvp-tierlist-for-flames-of-ambition/p1

Let's play a game called "Where's DK?". It's a lot like "Where's Waldo?" except DK is always in the same spot every time, at the bottom of literally every tier list. Even Templar is better now. Pull up esologs and find Stam DK. Spoiler alert, bottom. Pull up Alcast's tier list, Hack's, anyone you like. Guess what. Dead last. People are still stuck in 2015. DK is a meme. Necro and Warden players have been rampaging all across PvP, leaderboards and trials for months and the instant someone says "hey maybe Necro is too strong" Necro mains immediately go "bUt wHAt aBOuT dK?" But what? The class sucks. Find a better argument, one that actually justifies Necro being at the top of every tier list for months on end.

TheBonesXXX

Sangwyne wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

If you're struggling as a DK in PvP... Then you're 100% built wrong. They're easy.

Sure, buddy. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/568150/pvp-tierlist-for-flames-of-ambition/p1

Let's play a game called "Where's DK?". It's a lot like "Where's Waldo?" except DK is always in the same spot every time, at the bottom of literally every tier list. Even Templar is better now. Pull up esologs and find Stam DK. Spoiler alert, bottom. Pull up Alcast's tier list, Hack's, anyone you like. Guess what. Dead last. People are still stuck in 2015. DK is a meme. Necro and Warden players have been rampaging all across PvP, leaderboards and trials for months and the instant someone says "hey maybe Necro is too strong" Necro mains immediately go "bUt wHAt aBOuT dK?" But what? The class sucks. Find a better argument, one that actually justifies Necro being at the top of every tier list for months on end.

DK is easy, just because most of the players can't play worth a damn. Doesn't mean you nerf it into obscurity.

Sangwyne

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

DK is easy, just because most of the players can't play worth a damn. Doesn't mean you nerf it into obscurity.

And Necro is supposedly "really difficult" but it's at the top of every leaderboard, trial, and dominating PvP. Easy/=good. I can make Kraft Mac n' Cheese in like two minutes, but it'll still probably send you to the hospital with food poisoning. Nasty stuff.

TheBonesXXX

Sangwyne wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

DK is easy, just because most of the players can't play worth a damn. Doesn't mean you nerf it into obscurity.

And Necro is supposedly "really difficult" but it's at the top of every leaderboard, trial, and dominating PvP. Easy/=good. I can make Kraft Mac n' Cheese in like two minutes, but it'll still probably send you to the hospital with food poisoning. Nasty stuff.

You don't get food poisoning from mac and cheez.

Play one, well. Actually understand it. Then get back to these forums.

renne

olsborg wrote: »

Necromancer is just insanely strong in pvp, specially stamcro. They need a plethura of nerfs, but i would settle for mortal coil and spirit guardian nerfs. Specially the latter as 10% dmg mitigation and a great heal in one ability that lasts 16 seconds is just waow...

Stam needs the nerf more than classes.

Sephyr

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

The nerf is heavy handed.

Guess they have to kill the class and bring it back in order for it to be a necromancer again.

MrZeDark

[snip]

I rock DPS on my Necro, but I play with a STAM DK that also crushes and is competitive against my dps. The only thing that gets my necro the win, is the heavy AOE - so his Single Target beats me, but my total dmg beats him. I've seen a number of Stam DK crush it in End Game content... However if the context here is PvP, I have no comment - As I don't really have any feelings towards PvP other than the Transmutes it gives me.

[edited to remove quote]

katorga

Necro was nerfed because of several sets being added or changed.

Necro is my least favorite class to dps on due to the janky skills and rotation. If it becomes less desired and I don't have to play it, I'm good with that.

TequilaFire

Look on the bright side you could always be a Templar nerfed from day 1.

manny254

Speaking from a PVP perspective, this nerf feels like too much. It is hard to even get more than 3 of these skills slotted. In many cases 2 skills is more likely.

Personally I see two options that would still nerf the passive in PVE, but make it more viable in PVP.

1. Keep the passive at 10% per skill, but cap the max amount of crit the passive can give. I think 30% would be a fair cap.

2. Allow all necro skills to count for this passive, and possibly buff the% per skill by 1-2%.


As it stands on PTS, a class defining passive now feels like something I should never count on in PVP.

Rebiludo

10% -> 4% is really to Much!
10% -> 9% is...acceptable

MrZeDark

Rebiludo wrote: »

10% -> 4% is really to Much!
10% -> 9% is...acceptable

I could see 10 > 6% if it's an argument of too much. Balances happen and they clearly identified an issue, but 6% cut per ability isn't balance -- it's a nerf. Nerf usually occurs due to something being OP, but considering we have no execute in class option (and stam in PvE is dying/dead/buried/ashes/etc..) this is really a really huge hit.

TheBonesXXX

MrZeDark wrote: »

Rebiludo wrote: »

10% -> 4% is really to Much!
10% -> 9% is...acceptable

I could see 10 > 6% if it's an argument of too much. Balances happen and they clearly identified an issue, but 6% cut per ability isn't balance -- it's a nerf. Nerf usually occurs due to something being OP, but considering we have no execute in class option (and stam in PvE is dying/dead/buried/ashes/etc..) this is really a really huge hit.

That's the whole separate PvP and PvE and figure out later on that it doesn't work so well.

All the class nerfs are heavy handed tbh. Some minor tweaks would have been fine.

miguelcura

techprince wrote: »

Slimecraw + Iceheart + Medusa + Mothers Sorrow + Thief + Precise Staff = 80% crit chance
4 min skills on frontbar = 16% more crit chance so i will be sitting at 80%-96% crit chance.

Iceheart crit chance?

YandereGirlfriend

miguelcura wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Slimecraw + Iceheart + Medusa + Mothers Sorrow + Thief + Precise Staff = 80% crit chance
4 min skills on frontbar = 16% more crit chance so i will be sitting at 80%-96% crit chance.

Iceheart crit chance?

They're talking about using 2x one-piece bonuses instead of a full 2-piece monster set. It's unfortunate, but it's what monster sets have become in the era of scaling.

That said, I'm super dubious about the above setup. It may have high Critical Chance but its base damage will be absurdly low.

Lynxyn

Sangwyne wrote: »

Lynxyn wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Necromancer needed a nerf, it was the top DPS in trials and broken in PvP too. Still is.

[snip]

What's with people jumping on the Necromancer bandwagon and flaming anyone who disagrees? Necromancer is broken. Full stop. Both Mag and Stam Necro were top DPS in trials, to the point where you'd see a half dozen of them in the most competitive groups, they were busted in PvP and at the top of leaderboards everywhere, but dare say a word about it and people would shout you down. This is like trying to defend Malacath; you even admitted Magcro will still be at the top.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Not to be "that person" but Nightblades have completely escaped the nerf bat with their Assassination passives. Slotting two of those is the same effective Critical Chance boost as slotting 4 Grave Lord skills plus they have an actual class execute ability.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Non-Constructive Content]

Magblade, magsorc and magden are right there with them. The problem is that they nerfed them in a way that doesn't affect their dps so the class is still going to get salty people begging zos for nerfs every patch. Their execute was already trash compared to magblade so nerfing their only soft execute doesn't actually fix that top players stack them. If they wanted to stack something for execute they would of stacked magblade. It would be like if in pvp they want to nerf stamblades broken damage so they nerf it's sustainable damage into tanks. Doesn't change that they can kill anyone not wearing 5-7 heavy brass + impreg with full impen in .1 second out of stealth and then immediately go back into stealth.

Btw yea they're good in pvp, but stamblade magsorc and stamden are the absolute kings of this meta. Without procs magcro specifically is nothing but a beefy sustain bot with bug riddled abilities that don't work half the time and only gets worse with lag.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

katorga wrote: »

Necro was nerfed because of several sets being added or changed.

Necro is my least favorite class to dps on due to the janky skills and rotation. If it becomes less desired and I don't have to play it, I'm good with that.

Honestly, same. As much as I'm all for raising up other classes instead of nerfing, this is the one class I'm not sad to see nerfed. I can't stand playing my necromancer (it's the only class I don't like playing), and the absurdly out of proportion demand for them makes them even more unappealing.

katorga

Necro had the crit passive because it did not have an execute.

My other classes can have 75-85% crit rate WITH an execute.

So yeah, over nerfed.

ResidentContrarian

Disagree, not overnerfed.

When ZOS is reigning in crit for every class in the game and one class has a passive that lets you build for crit damage and damage while still enjoying the benefits of crit, then it's the outlier and going to be nerfed. It's not that hard to believe or unexpected.

Fact of the matter is, as I said a trillion times by now on these forums, low investment + stat dense options always = imbalance. The passive was an example of it and was complained about when Necros first appeared with it.

No one likes a nerf, but when one class is able to outdo every other one because of a single passive, then has other benefits that 4/6 classes don't have access to, it's a problem for balance.

katorga wrote: »

Necro had the crit passive because it did not have an execute.

My other classes can have 75-85% crit rate WITH an execute.

So yeah, over nerfed.

And to do that, they have to actually build for it where a necro isn't really doing so. Not your following logic here. There's a reason why necros are so prevalent and it's not because people like the theme. You know there is only one reason why something becomes prominent at end-game over every other option.

ajkb78

Grandma wrote: »

with how much more crit damage we'll have this patch i think it'll even out fine for necros. just means you need to slot a few more skills on your front bar. if you have all 6 that's 24% crit in execute. next patch ppl will just take thief and now they'll sit at 80-90% in execute. not the end of the world honestly. it was always a bit excessively overpowered. 10% crit just for slotting an ability? eh.

Not really. That's only 10% crit chance for 25% of the fight, or 2.5% overall. Compare that with Warden's 2% buff to all damage done per animal companions ability slotted. Given the buffs to crit damage coming from the adjustment to elemental catalyst and what is likely to be the universal use of the harpooner's wading kilt the nerf is probably necessary to prevent necros overperforming in endgame PVE, but not everyone spends their time doing endgame PVE: it's unfortunate that an entire class gets a nerf based on one likely meta for one facet of the game.

Having said that, from an endgame PVE perspective the weakening of necros looks about right (and I say that as a necro player): necros are guaranteed places in a trial lineup because they're needed for major vulnerability, so they shouldn't also have the strongest individual dps. NBs don't provide any group damage buffs so it's good to see them being able to justify their place in a group based on their dps again, last patch was rough for NBs, certainly I didn't see many in my trial groups. And it's nice that sorcs and wardens will be more in-demand for dps again. This time it looks like it'll be DKs' turn to get a raw deal, and still no love for templar dps.

katorga

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Disagree, not overnerfed.

When ZOS is reigning in crit for every class in the game and one class has a passive that lets you build for crit damage and damage while still enjoying the benefits of crit, then it's the outlier and going to be nerfed. It's not that hard to believe or unexpected.

Fact of the matter is, as I said a trillion times by now on these forums, low investment + stat dense options always = imbalance. The passive was an example of it and was complained about when Necros first appeared with it.

No one likes a nerf, but when one class is able to outdo every other one because of a single passive, then has other benefits that 4/6 classes don't have access to, it's a problem for balance.

katorga wrote: »

Necro had the crit passive because it did not have an execute.

My other classes can have 75-85% crit rate WITH an execute.

So yeah, over nerfed.

And to do that, they have to actually build for it where a necro isn't really doing so. Not your following logic here. There's a reason why necros are so prevalent and it's not because people like the theme. You know there is only one reason why something becomes prominent at end-game over every other option.

I don't know about "building for it", I'm running the same old, same old, every dps wears....MS/Siroria. I guess building for it is limited to choosing precise over some other trait and choosing between Thief and Shadow mundus.