Pelinal's Aptitude: Does it need a buff?

merpins

With the release of a bunch of new sets that give bonuses to both Spell and Weapon Damage, hybrid builds seem more viable than ever. But the old (not so old) armor that made it so you could do hybrids for the longest time has been Pelinal's Aptitude, and even with these new sets, Pelinal's still seems to be decent when it comes to a choice for this kind of set up, but isn't it kinda... Weak in general?

I've been doing some testing on some niche builds, trying to get good dps out of a hybrid. So far my builds have been good for solo play, but it gets out parsed (by a lot) by a more optimal DPS. This comes as no surprise, but the discrepancy is night and day. ZOS seems to be pushing more hybrid type armors, but why was THE hybrid armor designed the way it was?
The capstone of Pelinal's is making it so your weapon and spell damage equal one another based on the higher value. That's fine. But crit rate becomes an issue unless you're playing an AOE or DOT heavy build that doesnt focus as much on crit. Magicka and Stamina isn't much of a problem due to the fact that you can just slot for stam and magic, so you can swap whenever one resource is running a bit low...
With that last statement in mind, Pelinal's gives you stamina recovery as the 3 set effect and magicka recovery as the 4 set effect, and health as the two set effect. But why? If you're playing hybrid, you really don't need as much recovery in general (750-1000 will do, which isn't difficult to achieve without an armor buff). Not only that, but ZOS has begun to embrace giving two types of stats to a single line. This set also doesn't give any spell or weapon attack, despite being a set that should help that. With all that in mind, I think it should be buffed a bit, something like this:

(At CP 160):
(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka and Stamina Recovery
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon and Spell Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 to your highest damage stat (weapon or spell damage)
(5 items) Adds 171 to your highest damage stat (weapon or spell damage), then
your Spell and Weapon Damage both become the highest of the two values.

The extra spell/weapon damage at 5 items might not be necessary, or it could be arguable that the 129 weapon/spell damage at 4 items should be replaced with max stam/magic or spell/phys penetration, but I think a buff like this would make hybrid builds more viable than they currently are as a meta option, rather than their current status as niche options for solo play and arena runs.

Thoughts?

StarOfElyon

People often recommend this set to me and I always tell them it's a bad set. The recoveries on the 2-4 piece are ok but the five piece bonus only copies your highest damage stat and applies it to the opposite. In my opinion, Shackle Breaker is superior. I think you'd be better off just combining two hybrid sets like New Moon Acolyte and Shackle Breaker (which is what my hybrids wear). Innate Axiom is another option. Whatever you pick, you need a magicka and stamina bonus on the 5th piece.

So if I were to buff Pelinals, I would change the 5-piece bonus to 300 weapon and spell damage. If you're wearing NMA, this would stack on top of that. Because a pure stamina or magicka build is wearing sets that stack damage on top of each other. In order to be viable, hybrids need to be able to stack damage sets the same way. As Pelinals is now, it is a bad hybrid set, in my opinion.

As for your proposed changes:

(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka and Stamina Recovery
(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon and Spell Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 to your highest damage stat (weapon or spell damage)
(5 items) Adds 171 to your highest damage stat (weapon or spell damage), then
your Spell and Weapon Damage both become the highest of the two values.

In my opinion, I think this is a little overtuned. Recoveries are usually put on separate lines so I think it will be more balanced if we made these changes to what already exists:

(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) Adds 300 Weapon Damage and Spell Damage.

Just that alone I think would make Pelinals worth strong consideration to go on one of my hybrids. I think it would be challenge to Shackle Breaker. Since it's 9 traits to craft, I would even suggest making the 5-piece bonus 400 weapon and spell damage. Because another thing that kills hybrids is a lack of big resource pools. Having higher damage would help make up for having a lower mag or stam pool.


P.S. I suggest keeping the health because that makes it different from the other sets and this can also be a more defensive option compared to Shackle Breaker.

Nagastani

It's not really a problem with the set as much as an issue with the hybrid concept itself in this game.

For example, a Light Armor user who might use Stam Weapons, gets no benefit towards those attacks from Light Armor passives. Therefore, hybrid is non applicable for light armor.

Ok next we have Medium Armor users, ie... Stam users. So then it would be nice to buff their spell damage from the medium armor weapon damage passive, however it's just not necessary. If I'm running Stamblade with a resto staff, maybe on a Dunmer or Orc perhaps, then... I have all the healing I need. Think about it. Especially if you can run Major Brutality, it's over the top to force your build to max out spell damage as well. You already have all the spell damage you will ever need to heal and function reasonably well with your magic abilities. Not to mention a desto staff gets no benefits from medium armor passives either.

Heavy Armor right? So many times when I wear Heavy Armor, the way it turns out in the end is Weapon damage is around 2.5k, possibly 3k and spell damage is around 2k or 1.8k. But again, there is no need to max out the spell damage because it's bad practice to use a Destro Staff in Heavy Armor. It can be done, yet it makes utterly no sense whatsoever as opposed to running DW or 2H in Heavy which are very reasonably paired.

In summation, hybrid gameplay is already part of the game and there is just no real value in taking that concept to the extent that Pelinal's Aptitude offers, therefore you can't really 'fix' the set without also considering changes to other things.

ccfeeling

Base on ESO setting , there is no good spot for hybrid in PVE , I think casual play is fine , but if you wanna play the game seriously with hybrid build , sad to say but it's impossible or you carried by other players .

Damage and Defense & Utility requirement :
Spell cri / Weapon cri
Mag pool / Stam pool
Spell penetration / Weapon penetration
CP allocation

Beside the great spell and weapon damage obtain from the set , you actually can't fulfill other conditions at the same time .

Pelinal's Aptitude
(2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) Your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage both become the highest of the two values.

With so many drawbacks , but this set 2 , 3 , 4 bonus are joking weak ...

Maybe ZOS could consider
(4 items) Your Weapon penetration and Spell penetration both become the highest of the two values.

StarOfElyon

ccfeeling wrote: »

Base on ESO setting , there is no good spot for hybrid in PVE , I think casual play is fine , but if you wanna play the game seriously with hybrid build , sad to say but it's impossible or you carried by other players .

Damage and Defense & Utility requirement :
Spell cri / Weapon cri
Mag pool / Stam pool
Spell penetration / Weapon penetration
CP allocation

Beside the great spell and weapon damage obtain from the set , you actually can't fulfill other conditions at the same time .

Pelinal's Aptitude
(2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) Your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage both become the highest of the two values.

With so many drawbacks , but this set 2 , 3 , 4 bonus are joking weak ...

Maybe ZOS could consider
(4 items) Your Weapon penetration and Spell penetration both become the highest of the two values.

I still wouldn't wear it because it doesn't add anything.

Solariken

It needs to equalize won/spell damage, crit, and penetration and some other bonus like, using a skill that costs stamina reduces your next magicka ability cost by 10% and vice versa.

The current version of this set is completely useless

Skullstachio

Here's my opinion:

• 2: Adds 129 Health Recovery.
• 3: Adds 129 Stamina Recovery.
• 4: Adds 129 Magicka Recovery.
• 5: Adds 603 Maximum Health.
• 5: Adds 548 Maximum Stamina.
• 5: Adds 548 Maximum Magicka.
• 5: Your Spell and Weapon Damage Both become the highest of the two Values.

The implication here: Replace the max health on the 2nd piece with health recovery to collate with the stamina/Magicka recovery on the 3rd and 4th pieces and Add a Tri Stat 5th piece to go with the Spell/Weapon damage equilibrium effect (both becoming the highest of the two values) and thus giving it a slightly needed touch up to make this craftable set more viable for beginners.

ccfeeling

Skullstachio wrote: »

Here's my opinion:

• 2: Adds 129 Health Recovery.
• 3: Adds 129 Stamina Recovery.
• 4: Adds 129 Magicka Recovery.
• 5: Adds 603 Maximum Health.
• 5: Adds 548 Maximum Stamina.
• 5: Adds 548 Maximum Magicka.
• 5: Your Spell and Weapon Damage Both become the highest of the two Values.

The implication here: Replace the max health on the 2nd piece with health recovery to collate with the stamina/Magicka recovery on the 3rd and 4th pieces and Add a Tri Stat 5th piece to go with the Spell/Weapon damage equilibrium effect (both becoming the highest of the two values) and thus giving it a slightly needed touch up to make this craftable set more viable for beginners.

It's 9 Traits set

How many hours we spent to become a 9 trait crafter WITHOUT PTW .

I hope DEV can add this set into observational list ... there are so many sets revamp last year , it's great .

Ratzkifal

Here is my take on Pelinal's Aptitude:

• (2 items) Crit chance
• (3 items) Crit chance
• (4 items) Offensive penetration
• (5 items) Your spell and weapon damage become X% of the sum of both values. Your heavy attacks restore whatever resource is at the current lower percent.

The reason why it's not straight the sum of the two is because a lot of buffs already grant both weapon and spell damage and would then double dip. Major Brutality and Sorcery would otherwise grant 40% more hybrid damage while Major Courage would grant 800 hybrid damage which would be insanity. This way they still grant more, but not too much, only compensating for the fact that you don't technically have a second 5piece bonus. The value for X needs to be higher than 50% (which would just be old Pelinal's again) and lower than 100%, although some tests with my calculator showed that it probably shouldn't be more than 60% already. 55% was a promising value but I didn't have the time yet to go through all the possible buffs to figure out if that was balanced or not.
Drawbacks are that your max resources, which contribute to damage, are split, that you are splitting your armor more evenly across the weights and that you need more CP to reach your maximum potential, which I feel is fair considering that a lot of buffs still double dip on you and your gains from your base stats alone is already higher than normal. The value for X needs to be chosen with these drawbacks in mind.
You are also technically running two frontbar sets, so fitting in vMA bow/destro might not be possible, but if the value for X takes that into account too, then you don't even need them.

Here is how I would build a character if Pelinal worked like that.
New Moon Acolyte, 1 hybrid monster set piece (Slimecraw, Balorgh or Molag Kena), Torc of Tonal Constancy, Pelinal's

NMA provides 400 weapon and spell damage, double dipping and partially compensating for the lack of a 5th piece as intended.
You have between 3 and 4 crit chance boni applying to both weapon and spell crit.
You have two offensive penetration boni, making up for the fact that you have less spell penetration from running less light armor pieces but also providing you with high-in-demand physical penetration, thus allowing you to forego using the Lover Mundus for the Shadow.
Torc and the second component of pelinal's together with the sustain buffs from both medium and light armor fix your sustain, making up for the 5% NMA drawback.
I'd then pick either a hybrid max stat food, tri-stat food or a hybrid sustain drink.

I'd slot either Magelight or Expert Hunter and get the other named crit bonus from potions together with both stamina and magicka restore. Major Sorcery and Brutality I would get from a class skill, so I get two in one. In the case of a Templar I would slot a sustaint skill (Repentence or either morph of Rune Focus) and use a potion granting Brutality and Sorcery and whatever resource the sustain skill doesn't provide. New Ingredients need to be added to make that possible, I think.
On a Necromancer I would run Degeneration or Momentum/Hidden Blade, depending on whether I am using Magelight or Expert Hunter, together with a matching sustain skill, and use the same potion regular damage dealers of the other spec are running right now (Brutality,Savagery, Stamina or Sorcery, Prophecy, Magicka).

I think this set would already solve a lot of issues and remove the need to further homogenize boni and skills to make everything hybrid friendly at the cost of uniqueness of single-stat builds.

Red_Feather

This would be fun.

Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) Your Spell and Weapon Damage both become the highest of the two values. Your Stamina and Magicka become equal to half your health.

remosito

Equate the sta/mag pools to the higher instead of dmg might be interesting.

Chilly-McFreeze

StarOfElyon wrote: »

(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) Adds 300 Weapon Damage and Spell Damage.

At this point you really could just slot NMA and Shacklebreaker instead. The idea behind pelinal's is that you have to do less splitting.
You simply stack e.g weapon damage like an ordinary build. No reason to shove major sorcery in there and all your jewelry glyphs work on both stats.

I see Pelinal's more as an 5p that adds X amount of spell damage than anything else.


Also, I do think the recovery is important. If you'd take it into PvP you soon realize that resource management isn't done with just use a different spam if you run low on mag or stam.

With PvP in mind I'm also torn on adding crit chance. Malacath's Band adds a lot more to hybrids than a 3% crit chance could ever do. For PvE on the other hand it might be good.

So I'd settle for something simple and universal useful


This would be fun.

Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina & magicka Recovery
(4 items) Adds 1478 offensive penetration
(5 items) Adds 100 weapon & spell damage + Your weapon & spell damage both become the highest of the two values


Or, as alternative change max health for crit chance.

Red_Feather wrote: »

This would be fun.

Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(4 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(5 items) Your Spell and Weapon Damage both become the highest of the two values. Your Stamina and Magicka become equal to half your health.

I will bite. That's a questionable suggestion. It promotes the toxic heatlh stacking for free damage we already see with proc sets. Plus I'd need 55-60k health to reach stam/ mag values I'm able to archieve now. Imagine what it would be like fighting a 7k dmg/ 60k health hybrid in pvp. Imperial Physique says hello.

Tommy_The_Gun

Pelinal's Aptitude is a very niche set. So niche, that almost no one uses it. Even for a hybrid build there are way better options. Since many unpopular sets were buffed at some point and received additional effect on its 5pc bonus, Pelinal's Aptitude should also receive such bonus. I was thinking of for example crit chance:

(5 items) Your Spell and Weapon Damage and critical rating both become the highest of the two values.

Also, the other old and forgotten set that could receive similar buff is Twice-Born Star. There are far better options, but just like Pelinal's Aptitude which offers something unique, TBS allows to pick 2 mundus stones. But in itself it is too weak. It should also have built-in divine trait. So it would be something like this:

(5 items) You can have two Mundus Stone boons at the same time. Increases Mundus Stone effects by 15%.

Integral1900

A bit of a preamble is probably needed but if you want the quick version just get to the last three paragraphs, But given how emotive and personal this place style can be I feel this first half is necessary to set the scene.

As a former meta addict I used to run veteran dungeons and trials on a regular basis, eventually however I became jaded with the whole business. It just became a build bottleneck full of angry people and it still is. No one ever complained at me for my performance, I’ve had plenty of compliments and even requests for build advice. However, I’m not a forceful personality and so I would spend a lot of my time waiting for people to finish bickering and squabbling. Then plod forward playing builds I had increasingly little interest in.

When I first got into playing computer games back in the 1980s your basic play a character could one-shot pretty much anything in the world and vice versa, I think this is why I have a deep aversion to glass cannons.

I stopped playing my dps characters and puttered around with my tanks, but I came across the issue of how do you do PVE questing with a charecter that doesn’t do any damage, which is what takes up most of my playtime these days.

I found that by adding DPS sets to my tank I could complete open world quests as well as deal with most world bosses, with the exception of one or two of the most stupid ones from the DLC’s. You know, the ones that get ignored by place for days on end. These days difficulty doesn’t really appeal to me, quite the opposite, difficulty bores me to death. It was during this messing around looking for a new way to play that I fell in love with hybrids.

Hybrid builds are to me the quintessential fantasy character. I love stories of evil sorcerer is in great suits of baroque armour with over the tops staves casting spells of devastation, or wielding mighty blades and incinerating hapless heroes, that just gets my inner geek to sit up and pay attention.

This set has its place, for example classes such as the Templar and the Necromancer are a pain in the backside to get the major damage buffs for both sides of the equation. Whereas for the Dragon Knight it’s relatively simple. This set is far more useful for those first two, especially the Templar as you can stack in to spell damage and then transfer that over to weapon damage. I find the building hybrids as big beefy, battle armoured brawlers works well, basically tanks with an attitude problem. It also makes it easier to turn them back into tanks if the need arises

Could I take my beloved hybrids into veteran dungeons and trials? No. But then again I don’t play that content anymore. The build is it requires just do not interest me. It takes me enough time to work up the enthusiasm to want to do normal versions given how impossibly difficult it’s proven to find groups willing to hang around while I have a natter with the characters, the number of groups I’ve gone through trying to find just the sort of things is enormous.

The set is not essential to building hybrids, for example, I find that Dragon Knights work best by just slapping on new moon acolyte and then another damage set, Elf Bane works well, on a good day I can get up above 45k DPS, not bad for a slow old chap with stiff fingers in heavy armour playing a hybrid 😂.

Pelinals works fine for what it is, but it is by no means the only option for building a hybrid. If your class can give you major brutality and major sorcery as well as the two criticals, preferably in no more than two skills, then there’s no point in using this set. But if your class buffs are as messy and patchy as Templar’s and Necromancers, then it remains a solid option for the job at hand.

Chilly-McFreeze

Integral1900 wrote: »

Pelinals works fine for what it is, but it is by no means the only option for building a hybrid. If your class can give you major brutality and major sorcery as well as the two criticals, preferably in no more than two skills, then there’s no point in using this set. But if your class buffs are as messy and patchy as Templar’s and Necromancers, then it remains a solid option for the job at hand.

I agree to most of what you wrote.
But this paragraph effectively narrows it down to DKs. No other class has maj. brut + sorcery AND major prophecy + savagery in 2 skills.
Which is one of the reasions hybrids work best on them. Ironically they also have the easiest access to minor brutality so they could transfer the most weapon dmg over to spell dmg via Pelinal's.