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Germany passes new law for lootboxes in games - what does this mean for ESO and Crown Crates?
Seraphayel
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Germany passes new law which requires games with loot boxes to get the highest age rating
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/lyga0e/german_parliament_passes_new_youth_protection_law/
Taken from spiegel.de :
"With a reform of the Youth Protection Act, the government wants to ensure that children do not come into contact with incentives to buy in video games. The Bundestag passed the amendment on Friday. The Ministry of Family Affairs had initiated the reform of the almost 20-year-old law.
For video game developers, this could have far-reaching consequences. With the reform, so-called loot boxes, i.e. paid content in games that unlock virtual clothing, weapons and equipment, will be targeted by the youth protection authorities. The law speaks of "risks through gambling-like mechanisms". Accordingly, such purchase options could be classified as impairing the development of children and young people - and thus affect the age rating.
According to lawyer Julia Maris, the law will have an impact on age restrictions. "Online games or other applications that use lootboxes or similar in-game offers would probably be classified with an age rating of 18 or older," Maris tells SPIEGEL.
The reform would thus also affect games that were previously classified as harmless, such as "Fifa 21". The football simulation is currently approved without age restriction by the Prüfstelle Unterhaltungssoftware Selbstkontrolle. But since the collector's mode "Ultimate Team" offers card sets for purchase by default, this could change. In order for video games to receive an age rating for children, loot boxes would have to be deactivated by default.
Among other things, children should be protected from being ripped off with age-appropriate default settings, but also with warning pictograms before purchase. "We want clear symbols that point out risks such as depictions of violence or cost traps," said SPD Family Minister Franziska Giffey.
In a statement, the video game association Game says that it takes its responsibility for the protection of minors particularly seriously. According to Managing Director Felix Falk, it remains "a matter of course to offer and further develop modern and functioning solutions for the protection of minors".
The new law is to be adapted to the digital age and thus no longer differentiates, for example, whether videos and games are started on a console, mobile phone or PC. It also does not matter whether the data is downloaded from a DVD or from the internet. The previous version still referred to video cassettes, among other things.
@ZOS_GinaBruno Do you or does Zenimax / ZOS already have a statement on this topic?
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/lyga0e/german_parliament_passes_new_youth_protection_law/
Taken from spiegel.de :
"With a reform of the Youth Protection Act, the government wants to ensure that children do not come into contact with incentives to buy in video games. The Bundestag passed the amendment on Friday. The Ministry of Family Affairs had initiated the reform of the almost 20-year-old law.
For video game developers, this could have far-reaching consequences. With the reform, so-called loot boxes, i.e. paid content in games that unlock virtual clothing, weapons and equipment, will be targeted by the youth protection authorities. The law speaks of "risks through gambling-like mechanisms". Accordingly, such purchase options could be classified as impairing the development of children and young people - and thus affect the age rating.
According to lawyer Julia Maris, the law will have an impact on age restrictions. "Online games or other applications that use lootboxes or similar in-game offers would probably be classified with an age rating of 18 or older," Maris tells SPIEGEL.
The reform would thus also affect games that were previously classified as harmless, such as "Fifa 21". The football simulation is currently approved without age restriction by the Prüfstelle Unterhaltungssoftware Selbstkontrolle. But since the collector's mode "Ultimate Team" offers card sets for purchase by default, this could change. In order for video games to receive an age rating for children, loot boxes would have to be deactivated by default.
Among other things, children should be protected from being ripped off with age-appropriate default settings, but also with warning pictograms before purchase. "We want clear symbols that point out risks such as depictions of violence or cost traps," said SPD Family Minister Franziska Giffey.
In a statement, the video game association Game says that it takes its responsibility for the protection of minors particularly seriously. According to Managing Director Felix Falk, it remains "a matter of course to offer and further develop modern and functioning solutions for the protection of minors".
The new law is to be adapted to the digital age and thus no longer differentiates, for example, whether videos and games are started on a console, mobile phone or PC. It also does not matter whether the data is downloaded from a DVD or from the internet. The previous version still referred to video cassettes, among other things.
@ZOS_GinaBruno Do you or does Zenimax / ZOS already have a statement on this topic?
PS5
EU
Aldmeri Dominion
- Khajiit Arcanist -
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LadySinflower✭✭✭✭✭It's not outlawing loot boxes. It's just saying games with loot boxes have to be 18+. If ESO is already rated M this does nothing.Edited by LadySinflower on March 7, 2021 1:40PM5 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭More and more countries are working on lootboxes and gambling. So it would be wise for ZOS to come up with a secondary method for generating revenue.
That said, ESO has one of the most fair lootbox mechanics there is. As we can target specific items in the boxes, even when we fail. This happens in the form of crowngems. So all ZOS would have to do is give radiant apex mounts a crowngem price. Which would 100% remove the gamling part of the lootboxes, as there would be a fallback method for everything in them.Edited by Sarannah on March 7, 2021 1:44PM3 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ESO is already rated M. So there is no change for them.
We‘re talking about Germany. In Germany it‘s rated 16, which is not the maximum age rating (18 is, the equivalent of adults only). I know this topic would make more sense in the German part of the forum, but I doubt it’ll get the recognition it deserves.Edited by Seraphayel on March 7, 2021 1:55PMPS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -6 -
etchedpixels✭✭✭✭✭
✭Does Germany also require that the age is verified. That's been the killer in many other fields. If you've got to prove someone is 18, and the payment was made by someone over 18, and the payment was classified as gambling (so has to be cash value at the time) compliance becomes hairy - especially as a credit card is not an acceptable age proof.
Too many toons not enough time2 -
Lugaldu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »I know this topic would make more sense in the German part of the forum, but I doubt it’ll get the recognition it deserves.
Indeed, the discussion is not very vivid...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/de/discussion/564116/ein-paar-news-zu-eso#latest0 -
LanteanPegasus✭✭✭✭✭The text includes a lot of "could", "might have", "probably would have to"...
So I guess the law leaves some wiggle room, like most laws do.
With the crown crates not being a direct ingame purchase for "real" money (you have to buy the crowns outside the game) they might get away with the pictogram solution or something similar. Maybe with an age check when creating the account, with the crates simply not being available on any account that's under 18.Among other things, children should be protected from being ripped off with age-appropriate default settings, but also with warning pictograms before purchase.
And if the law specifically targets loot boxes, but not ingame currency that is available for real money, they could move away from the crates and put things up for gems that you have to buy for crowns or real money...0 -
RedMuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seraphayel wrote: »ESO is already rated M. So there is no change for them.
We‘re talking about Germany. In Germany it‘s rated 16, which is not the maximum age rating (18 is, the equivalent of adults only). I know this topic would make more sense in the German part of the forum, but I doubt it’ll get the recognition it deserves.
That might but the TOS you agree to when first logging in to the game says that you agree that you're 18 years old and if below that you need to have your parents' permission to play, if under 18 but over 13. At most this will change things so you have to be over 18, which will only remove a small part of the player base from the game.2 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭More and more countries are working on lootboxes and gambling. So it would be wise for ZOS to come up with a secondary method for generating revenue.
That said, ESO has one of the most fair lootbox mechanics there is. As we can target specific items in the boxes, even when we fail. This happens in the form of crowngems. So all ZOS would have to do is give radiant apex mounts a crowngem price. Which would 100% remove the gamling part of the lootboxes, as there would be a fallback method for everything in them.
Secondary revenue, like selling dlcs, expansions and in game sub?
Oh wait..5 -
Danikat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »ESO is already rated M. So there is no change for them.
We‘re talking about Germany. In Germany it‘s rated 16, which is not the maximum age rating (18 is, the equivalent of adults only). I know this topic would make more sense in the German part of the forum, but I doubt it’ll get the recognition it deserves.
That's surprising, PEGI has been rating it 18+ since the Justice system was introduced (because it's possible to murder innocents for no reason) and I thought PEGI and USK ratings usually matched up.
But even if the age rating goes up slightly it's not a big deal. 18 rated games don't have the same reputation in Europe as Adults-Only, or even Mature games in America, they're still sold pretty much anywhere that sells games, you just might be asked to show ID if you look under 18.
The problem with the AO rating in America is that a lot of stores want to make a big show of being "family friendly" and so won't stock them at all (I'm not sure if this is still the case but it used to be the same with music with a 'parental advisory' sticker) which means sales suffer, but that doesn't tend to happen in Europe.PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
"Remember in this game we call life that no one said it's fair"3 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭More and more countries are working on lootboxes and gambling. So it would be wise for ZOS to come up with a secondary method for generating revenue.
That said, ESO has one of the most fair lootbox mechanics there is. As we can target specific items in the boxes, even when we fail. This happens in the form of crowngems. So all ZOS would have to do is give radiant apex mounts a crowngem price. Which would 100% remove the gamling part of the lootboxes, as there would be a fallback method for everything in them.
Really? To me, ESO’s loot boxes are the worst I’ve encountered so far because ALL rewards are account bound. In SWTOR and GW2, some items could be sold. Now I will say this is ESO’s favor, that consumables can be turned into gems; GW2 does not have any such option. But I don’t recall any items in either SWTOR or GW2 being hard-locked behind loot crates (as in items only obtainable that way and players could not sell them) and I really dislike that about ESO’s loot box system.1 -
StormWylf✭✭✭✭Ok assume they have to rate the game 18+, 21+ or whatever the age of majority is in Germany. So what? It will change nothing.
As an aside as long as Free to Play is a thing, ALL of the game makers will continue with these products to survive. Well that's just IMHO. Feel free to disagree.1 -
gatekeeper13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I was missing some crown gems and bought 8 Crown Crates with ingame gold, which is around 3k Crowns. (buying crowns with in-game gold is legal and accepted by zos)
Thank God, I managed to gather 100 gems and buy the DroM'Athra Senche before offer expired. As for the loot.... Jesus....
8 crates and got nothing of use.
ZOS should remove crown crates and let us buy stuff we want with crowns directly. Not gems. Crowns.2 -
Iarao✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »ESO is already rated M. So there is no change for them.
We‘re talking about Germany. In Germany it‘s rated 16, which is not the maximum age rating (18 is, the equivalent of adults only). I know this topic would make more sense in the German part of the forum, but I doubt it’ll get the recognition it deserves.
That might but the TOS you agree to when first logging in to the game says that you agree that you're 18 years old and if below that you need to have your parents' permission to play, if under 18 but over 13. At most this will change things so you have to be over 18, which will only remove a small part of the player base from the game.
very few read the tos.0 -
Iarao✭✭✭✭gatekeeper13 wrote: »I was missing some crown gems and bought 8 Crown Crates with ingame gold, which is around 3k Crowns. (buying crowns with in-game gold is legal and accepted by zos)
Thank God, I managed to gather 100 gems and buy the DroM'Athra Senche before offer expired. As for the loot.... Jesus....
8 crates and got nothing of use.
ZOS should remove crown crates and let us buy stuff we want with crowns directly. Not gems. Crowns.
this would decrease revenue. that's why those crates are like gambling. you pay and pay and pay until rng decided that you can have what you want. so not for me.1 -
PizzaCat82✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zos has the ability to remove boxes from countries that have banned them. They simply aren't offered in the store for that country zone. Which means those player wont be buying them from ZOS. There still might be a way for them to get them, but I'm not sure because I've not dealt with it.0 -
Arrodisia✭✭✭✭✭etchedpixels wrote: »Does Germany also require that the age is verified. That's been the killer in many other fields. If you've got to prove someone is 18, and the payment was made by someone over 18, and the payment was classified as gambling (so has to be cash value at the time) compliance becomes hairy - especially as a credit card is not an acceptable age proof.
When I lived there they required age verification for all games, DLC's,...with content for 18+. Many times I had to show ID for purchases.Edited by Arrodisia on March 7, 2021 5:00PM0 -
Alinhbo_Tyaka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think changing the game to restrict access to Crown Crates based on age is pretty straight forward. The real bugaboo is how will ZOS or other game makers verify age and what is their liability if a minor obtains access to the restricted items. As has been mentioned a credit card is not proof of age so are the companies expected to verify a photo id? Will they need to use some type of age verification service? How do you detect and handle straw purchases? This change won't be a problem coding wise but has real implications on the process and liability side of the house.1 -
Ingenon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Curious to hear how this plays out. I expect ZOS will make any changes required to stay in compliance in Germany. I don't expect this will impact how Crown Crates are provided outside of Germany.0 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »Ever play TERA online? you think ESO is bad, yal haven't seen anything lol
And I've seen even worse games than TERA.
(like, I made the mistake of trying a terrible f2p game by Aeria a few years ago. It had multiple levels of $3-5 loot boxes, it had 'temporary' inventory & bank increases, it had crazy expensive costumes, it had cash boosts for enchanting your gear, it had open-world pvp... and they had monthly "contests" where, as you spent more money total in that month, you earned prizes. And the spending scale reached up to $1000+. For a month. And the top prizes included things like "ask a favor of a GM". This is why I laugh when people call ESO "pay to win". ) 6 -
B0SSzombie✭✭✭✭✭
✭While this ruling doesn't actually affect ESO's Crown Crates (It's already an 18+ rated game) the solution ZOS has come up with for the one or two countries that don't allow Crown Crates was to simply not sell them in that Crown Store.
...But you can still play with players from other countries with the items exclusive to Crown Crates, and if you really want them, there are ways of circumventing your System's registered location.
Basically, nothing will EVER really happen until a universal, global ban on the concept of Crown Crates occurs. And that is VERY unlikely. If even one country is fine with them, the practice will live on.1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The big emphasis here is "freiwillige Selbstkontrolle", meaning "voluntary self-control". Nobody is enforcing that other than physical stores, which doesn't always happen, and the part where you are asked your birthdate when making an account for online purchase, which nobody has ever lied about ever. The system isn't exactly waterproof and parents need to decide for themselves if they will ignore that rating or not when buying these games for their children. This has pretty much no impact on ESO as it is already rated for ages 16 and up in Germany and giving it the FSK18 rating won't change much.
The biggest impact will be on games like Fifa which look absolutely harmless at first glance and previously had a rating of 0, 6 or 12. Parents will be very confused if that football game is rated 18 and will actually look at the back of the case and read up on why this game is rated the way it is and then discover that it "contains gambling".
What really needs to happen is that the Verbraucherschutz (consumer protection office) looks into the whole lootbox thing, especially games which are gamble-to-win, but don't appear to be like that at first, are deceptive and underhanded, which isn't something that the consumer protection office tolerates.
If it contains gambling then it must warn you about the risks of gambling addiction, disclose the odds of winning and overtly draw attention to the fact that it is actually gambling (aka a game of chance). The laws for that already exist, but games haven't really been looked into yet and aren't recognized as gambling so the existing standards don't apply to them yet.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
Everstorm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The problem with the AO rating in America is that a lot of stores want to make a big show of being "family friendly" and so won't stock them at all (I'm not sure if this is still the case but it used to be the same with music with a 'parental advisory' sticker) which means sales suffer, but that doesn't tend to happen in Europe.
I can't remember the last time I bought a game in an actual store...
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Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭B0SSzombie wrote: »While this ruling doesn't actually affect ESO's Crown Crates (It's already an 18+ rated game) the solution ZOS has come up with for the one or two countries that don't allow Crown Crates was to simply not sell them in that Crown Store.
In Germany it is not, it’s 16+. That’s why I made this topic.
Germany doesn’t use the PEGI rating, it uses its own USK rating. ESO is PEGI 18 in Europe but USK 16 in Germany. PEGI ratings don’t apply to German products.Edited by Seraphayel on March 7, 2021 6:03PMPS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -1 -
B0SSzombie✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seraphayel wrote: »B0SSzombie wrote: »While this ruling doesn't actually affect ESO's Crown Crates (It's already an 18+ rated game) the solution ZOS has come up with for the one or two countries that don't allow Crown Crates was to simply not sell them in that Crown Store.
In Germany it is not, it’s 16+. That’s why I made this topic.
Germany doesn’t use the PEGI rating, it uses its own USK rating. ESO is PEGI 18 in Europe but USK 16 in Germany. PEGI ratings don’t apply to German products.
That's neat and all, but it doesn't really change the argument. You can still buy Crown Crates in Germany. People have been lying about their age in games since rating systems were invented.0 -
etchedpixels✭✭✭✭✭
✭Curious to hear how this plays out. I expect ZOS will make any changes required to stay in compliance in Germany. I don't expect this will impact how Crown Crates are provided outside of Germany.
The EU is looking at it, the UK is looking at it - government is catching up with the fact there is a problem.
I actually think it'll improve the game if they stick to freebie boxes from twitch and in game currency ones like the undaunted shoulders. Just put all the crown crate stuff on the crown store at prices equivalent to the odds and be done with it. No more gambling problems and the 1% can still spend thousands on gimmicks, houses and toys to fund the game for the rest of us.
Edited by etchedpixels on March 7, 2021 6:31PMToo many toons not enough time2 -
Mizael✭✭✭✭LadySinflower wrote: »It's not outlawing loot boxes. It's just saying games with loot boxes have to be 18+. If ESO is already rated M this does nothing.
This0
