Input Seldom Followed

gariondavey

Hi Everyone,

New to posting (but not reading) the forums. Just want to express my frustration at the tons of input the last few weeks for the PTS notes that went almost completely ignored. I don't understand why so many well thought out comments, threads, and feedback can't seem to change things.

Please let me know if you were disappointed in the PTS notes the last 2 weeks.

BlueRaven

I can’t say that I was disappointed, because I can’t say I am that surprised at the outcome.
ESO devs have a strong reputation for ignoring these forums. Even the “class reps” seem closed off in their own bubble.

I have said it before but it seems like people have a greater chance of getting the eso dev team to read their post, if they actually write it out on the Blizzard forums.

We can debate, poll, plead as much as we want here. Little if any of it actually makes a difference.

Firstmep

I've already posted this before, but I don't think pts gets much dev focus after the first couple of weeks, apart from maybe some minor bug fixing.
It's likely that the focus is already on new content.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if Zos wanted to see how their changes would perform in a live environment.
While that kinda defeats the purpose of having a pts in the first place, I still think this may be the case.

And yes, when it comes to the new armor bonus/penalty system, I think they majorly missed the mark, and didnt really consider feedback.
The nerf to heavy armor mitigation while cc immune passive was a step in the right direction, but light armor is still in the gutters next patch in pvp.

I really wish they did this sort of stuff during an off cycle pts, like they did with light and heavy attacks.
It's likely that most of what little time they had on pts was spent on the cp rework.

MinnesotaKid

Sad to say, @BlueRaven is essentially correct. I gave up trying to actually give constructive feedback to the devs as it is almost universally ignored.

Not a fan of this approach btw, but it is what it is....

WrathOfInnos

I can understand that a lot of opinions on balance and change suggestions are ignored. This game would be terrible if every player idea was implemented. I just get frustrated when reported bugs are left in the game for years, even those that are seemingly a simple fix.

vgabor

Giving any feedback beyond the basic - like tooltip mistyped, ability working / not working at all - is pretty pointless, based on years of experiences just will be ignored fully. Maybe acted on 2 update later like the feedback on the major gallop if people still keep pestering them after it goes live, but whatever goes to pts that will go to live regardless of feedbacks for changes.

ealdwin

Firstmep wrote: »

I really wish they did this sort of stuff during an off cycle pts, like they did with light and heavy attacks.
It's likely that most of what little time they had on pts was spent on the cp rework.

If I'm being honest, I wish off-cycle pts was used more often. Imagine if several iterations of the new CP system had been tested between patches over the past few months rather than looped into one pts cycle with 2 new dungeons and the introduction of armor benefits and penalties. I know this is how the pts has been for a while now, but there's honestly a bit too much going into one cycle. Patches could come out with fewer bugs if people weren't busy testing out the new changes and systems and could focus on making sure the content works.

As far as feedback that seemed ignored goes... time to begin working on those threads for the Combat & Character Mechanics section.

tsaescishoeshiner

I wish today's notes had addressed player concerns like racial passive balance and the green CP tree, but I'm happy that we don't just see whatever changes the forums has been bandwagoning every week. The forums are barely a consensus nor the authority on what's right.

We got requested changes like CP 3600 templates and some bug fixes. Let's hope for good stuff next week.

Just curious, what is all the feedback that you feel is being ignored?

Evil_Rurouni

gariondavey wrote: »

Hi Everyone,

New to posting (but not reading) the forums. Just want to express my frustration at the tons of input the last few weeks for the PTS notes that went almost completely ignored. I don't understand why so many well thought out comments, threads, and feedback can't seem to change things.

Please let me know if you were disappointed in the PTS notes the last 2 weeks.

If ZoS had genuine intent to use feedback, the gap between PTS start and patch release would be measured in months, not weeks.
4 weeks is nowhere near enouth time to fix the bugs and still get certification on the final launch version.

[Edit to remove bashing]

weathersong

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

We got requested changes like CP 3600 templates and some bug fixes. Let's hope for good stuff next week.

And this feels pretty big, to me. I can not only spend to how much CP that I have on live, I can even do some future planning. Since there's a dearth of any CP 2.0 planners on the web, right now.

renne

They literally ignored all reports of the massive instability - and the light attack bug! - that was allowed to be pushed live for Markarth on all platforms. It's just how ZoS rolls, to be honest.

sabresandiego_ESO

Game design isn’t a democracy. They don’t look at what the masses “think” and then just do it. Believe it or not, the game designers actually understand the game far better than the vast majority of the player base. The devs consider all input, make tweaks, and adjust in future patches when they miss the mark. But they don’t simply bend to the whims and desires of the masses. Just because they didn’t make specific changes doesn’t mean they aren’t reading all input

They have many “things” on their radar and the game is constantly evolving

virtus753

weathersong wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

We got requested changes like CP 3600 templates and some bug fixes. Let's hope for good stuff next week.

And this feels pretty big, to me. I can not only spend to how much CP that I have on live, I can even do some future planning. Since there's a dearth of any CP 2.0 planners on the web, right now.

UESP’s Build Editor is getting there. There are some bugs being ironed out and updates being made, but you can input and save your CP in the new system.

deleted221106-002999

They set pts agenda with their own feedback threads. Anything that doesn't address those very narrow areas will be and historically have been, pretty much ignored.

Unless it's something like a 50-page 'don't add cast time to sorc shields' or, just once, a cogent rebuttal regarding switching light/heavy attack mechanics, forget it.

renne

Actually, my favourite thing about ZoS ignoring input is this is the last patch before the update is released and they've only just got 3600 templates up. When there's literally no point testing anymore because they're not going to change anything anyway.

Gilvoth

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I can understand that a lot of opinions on balance and change suggestions are ignored. This game would be terrible if every player idea was implemented.

this ^ (above comment) is the correct Answer.
even though you, or a group of people, or even the entire forum viewers and posters think something "should" be implemented or done a certain way, it might destroy a game or even might not be possible for many reasons, the end product comes down to what the developers agree on.
for example:
the devs were working on making a 2 seated mount, that idea was changed and did not happen, it does not mean we did something wrong nor that the idea was bad or stupid. it just means the developers decided it was not good for the game. and i agree with them, we all should, its their game, and they are directing it in the way it should go to keep it running smooth and good.

BlueRaven

Gilvoth wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I can understand that a lot of opinions on balance and change suggestions are ignored. This game would be terrible if every player idea was implemented.

this ^ (above comment) is the correct Answer.
even though you, or a group of people, or even the entire forum viewers and posters think something "should" be implemented or done a certain way, it might destroy a game or even might not be possible for many reasons, the end product comes down to what the developers agree on.
for example:
the devs were working on making a 2 seated mount, that idea was changed and did not happen, it does not mean we did something wrong nor that the idea was bad or stupid. it just means the developers decided it was not good for the game. and i agree with them, we all should, its their game, and they are directing it in the way it should go to keep it running smooth and good.

Then what is the point of the pts forums?

No, it’s not a democracy. But it is a business. And at some point they need to start listening and understanding what their customers want.

There was a time not too long ago that these forums were humming. The forums had such fast turn over that new posts could disappear to the next page quite quickly.
And now it’s easy to see there is less and less activity here. The pure pointlessness of these forums are taking its toll.

Sanguinor2

Thats something you will have to get used to. Zos is very good at ignoring valid feedback and push horrible changes live only to revert them one or 2 patches later. Changes like Glyphgate, Dots getting overbuffed only to get overnerfed one patch later etc. all went live despite people showing evidence that those were dumb changes on the PTS.
Imo best shown during the dot patch. People told Zos on PTS that if they let those changes go live dots will be way too strong. Changes go live, everyone just stacks dots since using direct damage was inferior to just stacking as many dots as you could manage. One patch later, Zos nerfs dots so hard that slotting a fighters guild ability for the weapon damage becomes more valuable than some dots. People tell Zos on PTS that this is the case. Zos ignores it and lets it go live. Some time later Zos rebuffes some dots because no one used them. If they had considered the detailed feedback that actually included numbers they couldve saved themselves 2 patches worth of dot balancing to get where they are now but they didnt.

virtus753

Gilvoth wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I can understand that a lot of opinions on balance and change suggestions are ignored. This game would be terrible if every player idea was implemented.

this ^ (above comment) is the correct Answer.
even though you, or a group of people, or even the entire forum viewers and posters think something "should" be implemented or done a certain way, it might destroy a game or even might not be possible for many reasons, the end product comes down to what the developers agree on.
for example:
the devs were working on making a 2 seated mount, that idea was changed and did not happen, it does not mean we did something wrong nor that the idea was bad or stupid. it just means the developers decided it was not good for the game. and i agree with them, we all should, its their game, and they are directing it in the way it should go to keep it running smooth and good.

They made a 2-seater mount. It made it to the PTS, where (iirc) it caused anyone in the passenger's seat to be banned by the cheat detection.

That was a technical problem they don't appear to have solved (but may yet in the future), not a fully voluntary decision to go in a different direction.

stefj68

no feedback for what we discuss, no answer on our reports/bugs, no communication, we have to soak it up

Jaraal

gariondavey wrote: »

Hi Everyone,

New to posting (but not reading) the forums. Just want to express my frustration at the tons of input the last few weeks for the PTS notes that went almost completely ignored. I don't understand why so many well thought out comments, threads, and feedback can't seem to change things.

Please let me know if you were disappointed in the PTS notes the last 2 weeks.

98% of the player feedback has historically been ignored, and the majority of the bugs that make it to the live server were at some point reported, but ignored on the Public Test Server.

Most of us who have been around for a while understand this, and simply view the test server as a place to preview upcoming content before it gets pushed to live.

gariondavey

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I wish today's notes had addressed player concerns like racial passive balance and the green CP tree, but I'm happy that we don't just see whatever changes the forums has been bandwagoning every week. The forums are barely a consensus nor the authority on what's right.

We got requested changes like CP 3600 templates and some bug fixes. Let's hope for good stuff next week.

Just curious, what is all the feedback that you feel is being ignored?

Racial changes, cp scaling, more cp passives in green tree instead of so many slotted, class changes (templar), proc sets, malacath, hp based heals, the list goes on. I understand what you are saying, and I agree mainly.

gariondavey

Gilvoth wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I can understand that a lot of opinions on balance and change suggestions are ignored. This game would be terrible if every player idea was implemented.

this ^ (above comment) is the correct Answer.
even though you, or a group of people, or even the entire forum viewers and posters think something "should" be implemented or done a certain way, it might destroy a game or even might not be possible for many reasons, the end product comes down to what the developers agree on.
for example:
the devs were working on making a 2 seated mount, that idea was changed and did not happen, it does not mean we did something wrong nor that the idea was bad or stupid. it just means the developers decided it was not good for the game. and i agree with them, we all should, its their game, and they are directing it in the way it should go to keep it running smooth and good.

I agree to an extent, but at the same time, many of the changes they make have been driving veteran players away. Most of the time the changes that drive people away have been spoken out against strongly.

Ryuvain

Used to it by now. So many game companies just ignore everyone now. Makes the few that actually listen seem like saints.

YandereGirlfriend

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I can understand that a lot of opinions on balance and change suggestions are ignored. This game would be terrible if every player idea was implemented. I just get frustrated when reported bugs are left in the game for years, even those that are seemingly a simple fix.

While I agree with what you say, I also believe that there are some here (such as yourself, Mashmallo, etc.) that have a demonstrably better apprehension of the game's overall design and balance than the designers themselves do.

So while I would not want the developers bowing to every outlandish nerf/buff thread that is posted here, I would very much like to see them heed the warnings and advice of certain well-informed members. The game's overall design and balance would be much better for it.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

BlueRaven wrote: »

I can’t say that I was disappointed, because I can’t say I am that surprised at the outcome.
ESO devs have a strong reputation for ignoring these forums. Even the “class reps” seem closed off in their own bubble.

I have said it before but it seems like people have a greater chance of getting the eso dev team to read their post, if they actually write it out on the Blizzard forums.

We can debate, poll, plead as much as we want here. Little if any of it actually makes a difference.

This Above is the Main reason I don't go into the PTS anymore and give feedback.

gariondavey

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I can understand that a lot of opinions on balance and change suggestions are ignored. This game would be terrible if every player idea was implemented. I just get frustrated when reported bugs are left in the game for years, even those that are seemingly a simple fix.

While I agree with what you say, I also believe that there are some here (such as yourself, Mashmallo, etc.) that have a demonstrably better apprehension of the game's overall design and balance than the designers themselves do.

So while I would not want the developers bowing to every outlandish nerf/buff thread that is posted here, I would very much like to see them heed the warnings and advice of certain well-informed members. The game's overall design and balance would be much better for it.

Exactly this. I have been reading the forums a long time, and people like you 3 definitely have stuck out in my mind as to understanding issues and having solutions.

rootkitronin

And here I am just wanting them to fix the steps of Kushalit Sanctuary =/

newtinmpls

Jaraal wrote: »

98% of the player feedback has historically been ignored, and the majority of the bugs that make it to the live server were at some point reported, but ignored on the Public Test Server.

Most of us who have been around for a while understand this, and simply view the test server as a place to preview upcoming content before it gets pushed to live.

Well said.

stefj68

im pretty sure if 90% of us says that cp 2.0 need to be postponed to june and redesign, that won't change a think... still feel bad that 1/3 of my cp now goes for crafting... i like the perks but i think that should have been a separate things for those bonuses...

Dracane

They should not have done Champion Point Overhaul and armor changes in one patch.
The armor changes needed a lot of balancing and reconsideration, but only 1 change was made in all the weeks. Instead, all focus was on the Champion Point system.

It's clear that this was their only intention during the pts. Getting bug testers for their new dungeons and the CP system. And now we are stuck with these poorly thought out armor penalties for another 4 months at least.