Question: Why do people have a problem with large groups in Cyrodiil?

Grandchamp1989

Isn't the whole idea to have big epic battles, take castles, make sieges and have a huge brawl?
That seems like the whole selling point of Cyrodiil... Not to go in 2 man and grab a ressource...

Or did I miss something?

rollingphoneseb17_ESO

U srs right? U cant survive 10 auto attacks no matter what. it's not the type of brawl you would expect.

VaranisArano

Might as well ask why people play solo, gank, 1vX, bomb, small scale or play in anything less than a full faction stack at all times.

Look, I prefer to raid with my PVP raid, but I don't pretend that's the only way to play in Cyrodiil. Lots of people enjoy playing in different ways. Which includes camping a resource as a pair of friends waiting to ambush the few players who trickle out to recapture it. Different strokes for different folks, you know?

Cyrodiil grants a lot of freedom to PVP how you want, supporting a much greater range of playstyles than either Battlegrounds or Imperial City. That's a good thing!

phairdon

Cyrodiil was designed for large scale battles. Performance is one of the reasons people do not want large groups. There are other reasons too. Mainly solo players or small groups wanting to dictate how everyone else plays.

On a personal basis, I loved the large battles at the bridges and for keeps.

Faded

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Isn't the whole idea to have big epic battles, take castles, make sieges and have a huge brawl?
That seems like the whole selling point of Cyrodiil... Not to go in 2 man and grab a ressource...

Or did I miss something?

The big fights have always been the most fun, I agree. What you missed is what's left of the PVP community being encouraged and willing to blame each other for the crappy performance many see at those fights. It's heals, it's groups, it's faction stacking aka other people coming to fight in the big fight, it's whatever that guy is doing I'm not doing.

Every time the devs restrict how we can play - preferably other people's way of playing, definitely never mine - the short-memoried attack whatever they restricted because it must be to blame and now everything will be fine.

It's never fine because how other people play isn't the problem, the problem is systemic. But the next thing will be restricted and it was the real problem all along, I heard it on Twitch.

BXR_Lonestar

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Isn't the whole idea to have big epic battles, take castles, make sieges and have a huge brawl?
That seems like the whole selling point of Cyrodiil... Not to go in 2 man and grab a ressource...

Or did I miss something?

Exactly my thoughts TBH. IMO, Cyrodil was built for large scale battles so people shouldn't be shocked to see big groups running together. If you want small-scale combat, go play battlegrounds - that is what BG's is for.

The only legitimate complaint about ball groups is the constant crashing you can experience during large-scale battles, but that is an issue for Zos to try to solve. The players "zerging" crash just as much as the players who are are fighting against it, so i guess, in that sense, it is still an even playing field.

Amarthiul

Lag. You can feel the ball groups coming before they appear on your screen.

On the rare occasions when it's not laggy, they're fun to fight against. When the game doesn't respond to your actions - whether it's hitting a skill, bar swapping, breaking free, not being able to do anything after roll-dodging, gap closers / teleports not working, potions not being consumed, ultimates not going off, ultimate points being consumed but no ultimate appears - it's frustrating. I have no doubt they know the effect they have, you can tell when someone you're fighting is struggling due to lag and it just sucks any enjoyment I have out of PvP.

Miszou

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Isn't the whole idea to have big epic battles, take castles, make sieges and have a huge brawl?
That seems like the whole selling point of Cyrodiil... Not to go in 2 man and grab a ressource...

Or did I miss something?

Because it makes people mad that they get steamrolled by superior numbers when they believe themselves to be so good that they ought to be able to 1 v X and still win.

TequilaFire

Spoils certain types You tube videos.

Athan1

I agree with OP. I don't get why some people want everything to be soloable in an *MMO*. Just team up to fully enjoy the game or do the abundance of soloable content.

Ratzkifal

The problem isn't huge groups during keep sieges as much as it is huge groups breaking into your keep and then taking the flag, but not actually killing every enemy inside to give them the opportunity to retake the flag only so that the huge group can repeat the process and get another AP tick from the same keep. And while they are doing that they are just running in circles in your own keep, instantly killing anyone dumb enough to try and fight them just by constantly having AOE damage on while their healers use AOE healing to keep the entire group floating.
That's not fun and shouldn't be so rewarding for the people doing it either. You can't blame people for playing the most effective way after all.

And then there is the issue that this behavior causes lag.

Faulgor

Miszou wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Isn't the whole idea to have big epic battles, take castles, make sieges and have a huge brawl?
That seems like the whole selling point of Cyrodiil... Not to go in 2 man and grab a ressource...

Or did I miss something?

Because it makes people mad that they get steamrolled by superior numbers when they believe themselves to be so good that they ought to be able to 1 v X and still win.

I will say it's kind of strange when people call you a coward or dishonorable when you don't want to 1 on 1 them.

Deciding when to engange and when not to is probably the most important decision I make in PvP - that includes looking for an advantage in numbers.

I mean, premade / small scale groups coordinate their attacks on specific targets all the time, but I'm not allowed to wait for an ally to take you on? It's what I'd do in a real situation.

Not to mention 90% of what these high skill players do is run away and LOS until they see an opportunity. Talk about cowardice! /s

terrannova

Because whenever there is a zerg in the server u can feel the server struggling to keep up. Also the lag is tremendous. This doesnt happen with casual pub groups, even if they were at a maximum of 25.
So now people just generalize that big groups are bad

Anyron

I love fighting 100v100 solo players in huge battles.

I just dont like ballgroups. They like to cheesing everything possible. There is no counterplay to them (no, bombing isnt thing because you are dead before you are near them -spamming aoes) and they lag your game to point of unplayable.

I dont mind zergs. You can stil chew players of it as soloer, but you can't do anything about ballgroups. Only "counter" is go away and thats not playing pvp.

My best pvp memories are about "defending enemy scrolls in our keep" when its faction vs 2 factions

wolfbone

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Isn't the whole idea to have big epic battles, take castles, make sieges and have a huge brawl?
That seems like the whole selling point of Cyrodiil... Not to go in 2 man and grab a ressource...

Or did I miss something?

people do pvp in diffrent ways. I used to know a highly skilled night blade who'd take down small groups of 3/5 players on their own. I didnt like bigger groups as they felt it effected how well they could do their job

Pauwer

When i'm solo, it's ok to do small scale, take resources and towns like. But i think solo stinks for anything bigger. Like yesterday we were taking a keep, there was 4-6 of us, i suspect all solo. We get to inner and defending players show up, all tanks. And all of a sudden i realize all friendly players have stopped sieging and have disappered chasing tanks in all directions. Then we just die one by one, epic fail. Like it just doesn't work. Better to play in groups to be successful and have more fun really.

Crom_CCCXVI

The main reason now is because you can't break them up.. or hold them off anymore

CC's, Stuns and Immobilizes have all been taken out of the game for the most part..... where as two years ago, a small group could kick the crap out of giant zerg... but now they just roll into a keep and it is a numbers game.

Don't get me wrong, most of the "elite players" whining in here don't even own seige and probably haven't defended a keep in 2 years--- but that is real reason, imo

Asardes

You can defeat ball groups if all of those Sorcerers who are running around would slot goddamned Negate Magic instead of spamming useless skills. Also dropping other hard hitting AoE ultimate skills on them, such as Shifting Standard, Meteor, Elemental Rage while they're stunned & silenced melts them quite fast. Before the start of the test I was testing an AoE stamina build with Perfected Titanic Cleave, Azureblight and lots of AoE DoTs on a stamina DK (works on any stamina build really). It made quite a dent on the HP of the ball group but they were able to heal back up and purge the DoTs, because I was solo and people didn't want to use that negate.

caperb

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The problem isn't huge groups during keep sieges as much as it is huge groups breaking into your keep and then taking the flag, but not actually killing every enemy inside to give them the opportunity to retake the flag only so that the huge group can repeat the process and get another AP tick from the same keep. And while they are doing that they are just running in circles in your own keep, instantly killing anyone dumb enough to try and fight them just by constantly having AOE damage on while their healers use AOE healing to keep the entire group floating.
That's not fun and shouldn't be so rewarding for the people doing it either. You can't blame people for playing the most effective way after all.

And then there is the issue that this behavior causes lag.

I hope you realise that whenever a ball group enters a keep all solo players scatter to all corners, making it basically impossible to clear the keep unless a friendly zerg comes in.

VaranisArano

Asardes wrote: »

You can defeat ball groups if all of those Sorcerers who are running around would slot goddamned Negate Magic instead of spamming useless skills. Also dropping other hard hitting AoE ultimate skills on them, such as Shifting Standard, Meteor, Elemental Rage while they're stunned & silenced melts them quite fast. Before the start of the test I was testing an AoE stamina build with Perfected Titanic Cleave, Azureblight and lots of AoE DoTs on a stamina DK (works on any stamina build really). It made quite a dent on the HP of the ball group but they were able to heal back up and purge the DoTs, because I was solo and people didn't want to use that negate.

I've been on the other end with my DK when solo zergsurfing, dropping Standard in choke points and flags where other players should have theoretically targeted the ball group, only to watch them move on through or take only my standard damage, which they can heal through.

The problem is that you and I were solo and no one who would have used that Negate or other burst damage knew when we were going to hit the ball group.

Ball groups use the ulti drop as an effective tactic because they can call it out in voice comms and everyone knows when to save and when to use their ultimate. Uncoordinated players use their ultimate whenever seems best to them, so the effect is more like popcorn. The PUG and solo players who do have the skills/ultimates to kill ball groups in combination aren't coordinated. Since ball groups heal up fast, its hard for uncoordinated players to take advantage of someone else's burst damage. If I'm planning to use Standard as a long lasting DOT on the back flag/stairs choke point, but you already burst them on the door, our damage wasn't coordinated and the ball group probably heals through both separately.

In other words, if you want a sorc who drops Negate on your command or any player to drop their ultimate on your target at a moment's notice for that matter, you can't be playing solo. You need a group at the very least and probably voice comms so you can coordinate your burst and ulti drops...and we're starting to sound like organized small scale here, aren't we? Maybe that's not your scene, but unless you coordinate, there's no point in griping that your ungrouped allies didn't read your mind and use their ultimate exactly when/where you wanted them to.

Ratzkifal

caperb wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The problem isn't huge groups during keep sieges as much as it is huge groups breaking into your keep and then taking the flag, but not actually killing every enemy inside to give them the opportunity to retake the flag only so that the huge group can repeat the process and get another AP tick from the same keep. And while they are doing that they are just running in circles in your own keep, instantly killing anyone dumb enough to try and fight them just by constantly having AOE damage on while their healers use AOE healing to keep the entire group floating.
That's not fun and shouldn't be so rewarding for the people doing it either. You can't blame people for playing the most effective way after all.

And then there is the issue that this behavior causes lag.

I hope you realise that whenever a ball group enters a keep all solo players scatter to all corners, making it basically impossible to clear the keep unless a friendly zerg comes in.

Lol, it's not impossible at all. If a ballgroup can't clear it, why would a zerg be able to? If the ballgroup flips a keep and then actually defends the flags, the scattering solo players have no chance of retaking that keep or winning that fight and will eventually leave or die, especially since those friendly zergs will be able to teleport to the keep in question via the transitus network.

I am not talking about just an organised group taking keeps, that's perfectly fine and legit. I am talking about an organised group intentionally letting the enemies retake the keep they just conquered while they are still inside, so they can come walking down the stairs five minutes later to flip it again and repeat the process. They are allowing all the dead solo players to respawn at the keep they are fighting at so the cycle can continue.