The Way I would Rebalance Racial Passives (How I spent my day off for some reason)

fathym1

Earlier today I when I was reading the patch notes, I couldn't help but realize that some races like Redguard, Argonian, and Khajiit really got kicked in the dirt with the patch changes, while higher tier races like the Orcs got absolute massive, completely unbalance buffs (After doing the math, I found that that single health proc passive is worth roughly the same as 3 full passive on other classes). So I decided it would be a fun waste of a half hour to sit down and do a redesign of the weaker class passives to hopefully rebalance them. Long story short, I ended up spending way longer than a half hour and essentially redesigned the entire passive system using a point system for balance. Would be interested to see other people's thoughts. I've taken some liberties with conversions that don't have a standard in the game but in all other situations vehemently stayed within the bounds of how stats are currently balanced on armor sets. All conversions are listed below.

-The entire point system is based off a 774 (3x258) point system. Where each class gets that many points total allotted to added combat stats.
-The baseline 258pt passive is 258 spell and weapon dmg.
-All passives that only increase stam or mag will be buffed to 2200 for standardization (1000 to 1100)
-All passives only increase max health will be buffed to 2400. (1000 to 1200)

from armor sets
-1487 armor or mr = 129 spell or wep dmg (11.527:1 ratio)
-1487 phys or mag pen = 129 spell or wep dmg (11.527:1 ratio)
-129 mag/stam/health recovery = 129 spell or wep dmg (1:1 ratio)
-1096mag/stam = 129 spell or wep dmg
-1206health = 129 spell or wep dmg
-687 critical strike = 129 spell or wep dmg

Full List of Changes


liberties I took for conversions
-for resistances I made the starting point 2974(1487x2)) armor and mag resist = 258 spell and wep dmg
-Increased the resistance value per passive pt by 50 as the restrictions increase. Ex: Nord rugged baseline, breton mag res 50% greater, bosmer/Argonian 100%>, nord frost and Dunmer flame
150%>
-for calculate resource(Altmer), spell cost decreases(Breton) and health procs (Orc), I started with the standard regen bonus but boosted it by 30% bc most people will have major regen on during fights and then a 30% again to make up for the fact that these procs do not regen anything outside of combat. For breton, I did my calculations base on an average 2800 resource cost.
calculation equation: 258(regen)/2(sec)*1.3(major regen)*1.3(offset)=resource/s
-For more class variety, I gave some classes passives with power 6% greater than 258pt passive cap but made them much more niche in usability.
- I didn't add Imperial b/c its still a p2w class.
Edit: The health proc is actually out of 258 point not 129. I just forgot to change it when redoing the calculations. With 872 an health proc coming out to 258pt you can see why making it 2125 seems insane to me.

Ratzkifal

I mostly agree (especially with the restoration of the stealth to the Woodelves), but I feel like there is still room for improvement here.

I also don't get why you nerfed Bretons when they look to be quite a bit weaker next patch due to the CP changes despite them getting numerically buffed. If everyone runs parse food because they don't need more health anymore due to the new CP, then additional sustain from racials won't be needed anymore. They are dropping into the same hole that Redguards and Bosmer are in right now on Live. Also I feel like their passive should now include the new Overcharged status effect too.

The change you made to Argonian's healing done passive is actually quite good to the point where I'd say it didn't go far enough. You could scrap the percentage modifier and give them more spell/weapon damage specifically for healing. But I feel the potion passive at the reduced value is still quite lackluster. Personally I feel it needs to be done away with as there are just too many issues with it. I'll repost my idea for an Argonian rework which I already put in another thread after this to keep it separate from this comment.

Edit: Forgot to talk about Orcs.
I think the reason they got this ridiculous buff to their healing is because of PvP. In PvP that healing is halved and it's not going to replace a healer in PvE, so unless you are doing solo content it's really not as big of a deal.

Ratzkifal

Reposting my comment from an Argonian thread:

Argonian Rework - just for fun

Historically Argonians always had the greatest bonus to Athletics out of all the races. Athletics determined how fast you run and swim but also allowed to regenerate Fatigue faster. They've had bonuses to spears and blades but also illusion and mysticism, giving them hybrid vibes. Skyrim gave them an ability to regenerate health, which reminds me of real-life amphibians, so I feel that is fitting and should be kept.

Argonians

1. Adds 2000 magicka and stamina
2. Adds 2310 Disease and Poison Resistance.
3. Adds 258 health and 129 magicka and stamina recovery. While in combat generate 2 ultimate every 5 seconds.

Not sure if those values are balanced for the whole set bonus calculation, but I tried going off of already existing values.

Obviously Argonians are hybrids since they are skilled at both magic and weapon of some kind. Max stat bonuses are important for damage calculation so giving them max stats will already increase their viability as damage dealers. Poison and disease resistance are a must for Argonians, so that one needs no further explanation.

The potion passive had the problem of being tied to the constant use of potions, which is quite limiting, especially if you don't have the funds to fuel that addiction, so in order to address this I felt like changing their potion bonus for tri-stat recovery akin to Amber Plasm but not quite as powerful in order to not outshine Bretons or Bosmer in their respective niche with a little bit of Champion of the Hist mixed in.

The base resource recovery values are lower than that of the old potion passive(the unnerfed one as on live) but Major Endurance/Intellect boost it to be very slightly above the old value with armor boni to recovery making it better than it was when specializing, at the cost of stamina recovery being put to 0 when blocking or sprinting. Since this would be a nerf to existing Argonian tanks, I feel like they needed compensation in the form of ultimate generation, which is one of the most desireable stats for tanks, but is also much appreciated by healers who want something else after the bonus to healing done was removed.

The ultimate value was chosen to be weaker than Nord's in order to not steal their niche but also doesn't require to be taking damage, which makes Argonians better as healers and damage dealers in that regard without having any other offensive boosts. In terms of strength, Nords get an additional use of Warhorn every 8minutes and 20seconds while Argonians get one every 10minutes and Imperials get theirs "6% faster", its strength depending on how fast they were getting it in the first place.

The health recovery is stronger than the other values because no race in ESO so far has been specialized into having the biggest health recovery among them, which I feel Argonians could very well do. Khajiit are the only ones with a bonus to it right now, but it is rather small and at small values health recovery isn't all that useful. Thematically it also does not really fit the cats as well.

Something that may be bad about this suggestion is that it takes what some people wanted as a quality of life improvement for Nords and makes it an essential part of the Argonian identity instead, but I feel Nords have a much clearer identity than Argonians right now and are by no means in a bad spot in their niche even after the nerf. It's also possible that Bretons would be sidelined as healers despite their far superior sustain simply because ultimate generation is so good, but I doubt that would be the case since Nord healers haven't replaced them yet and even healers take damage regularly enough to proc the effect.

I think your approach of adding Spell/Weapon Damage to healing abilities could also be a good alternative to the ultimate generation I gave them. I just wanted to put my rework idea here because I feel we don't need to be tied to the use of potions on that passive and deal with PvP issues resulting from the burst heal or overheal causing loss of effectiveness. Also the math with the recovery was done before 6.3.2

munster1404

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I mostly agree (especially with the restoration of the stealth to the Woodelves), but I feel like there is still room for improvement here.

I also don't get why you nerfed Bretons when they look to be quite a bit weaker next patch due to the CP changes despite them getting numerically buffed. If everyone runs parse food because they don't need more health anymore due to the new CP, then additional sustain from racials won't be needed anymore. They are dropping into the same hole that Redguards and Bosmer are in right now on Live. Also I feel like their passive should now include the new Overcharged status effect too.

The change you made to Argonian's healing done passive is actually quite good to the point where I'd say it didn't go far enough. You could scrap the percentage modifier and give them more spell/weapon damage specifically for healing. But I feel the potion passive at the reduced value is still quite lackluster. Personally I feel it needs to be done away with as there are just too many issues with it. I'll repost my idea for an Argonian rework which I already put in another thread after this to keep it separate from this comment.

Edit: Forgot to talk about Orcs.
I think the reason they got this ridiculous buff to their healing is because of PvP. In PvP that healing is halved and it's not going to replace a healer in PvE, so unless you are doing solo content it's really not as big of a deal.

Tanks are not running parse food anytime soon.

fathym1

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I mostly agree (especially with the restoration of the stealth to the Woodelves), but I feel like there is still room for improvement here.

I also don't get why you nerfed Bretons when they look to be quite a bit weaker next patch due to the CP changes despite them getting numerically buffed. If everyone runs parse food because they don't need more health anymore due to the new CP, then additional sustain from racials won't be needed anymore. They are dropping into the same hole that Redguards and Bosmer are in right now on Live. Also I feel like their passive should now include the new Overcharged status effect too.

The change you made to Argonian's healing done passive is actually quite good to the point where I'd say it didn't go far enough. You could scrap the percentage modifier and give them more spell/weapon damage specifically for healing. But I feel the potion passive at the reduced value is still quite lackluster. Personally I feel it needs to be done away with as there are just too many issues with it. I'll repost my idea for an Argonian rework which I already put in another thread after this to keep it separate from this comment.

Edit: Forgot to talk about Orcs.
I think the reason they got this ridiculous buff to their healing is because of PvP. In PvP that healing is halved and it's not going to replace a healer in PvE, so unless you are doing solo content it's really not as big of a deal.

The reason why I nerfed Breton's slightly, is because, currently ZOS has shown through other passives in the game, that recovery has the same value as spell and weapon damage at roughly a 1:1 ratio. On of the major issues I struggled with when making this was that I'm fairly certain that recovery should not be at a 1:1 ratio with wep/spell damage. My gut feeling would put it at roughly a 1.2:1 ratio but I can't be certain without testing and, if that is the case, it would need to be change in ,not only these passives but every armor set and recovery glyph so I was hesitant to make change as drastic as that. Also, I did buff them by 1% for their Magicka mastery passive. Also just from a conceptual standpoint, the resistance value against all magic damage should be significantly lower than resistances verse 1 or 2 specific damage types. I chose a 50% increase as the resistance specificity increase which just turn out, through the math to be slightly inferior to how it was previously. The increase could be raised past 50% but then you run the risk of having idiotically high resistance values for nord and dunmer.

As for the Argonian potion passive, you may be right. Honestly I specifically didn't touch that one because I wasn't at all sure how to balance it appropriately. If you try to compare it with regen passives its actually overbudgeted, but it can only be used every 30 seconds, requires an activator and, as I said, I believe recovery is over costed.

Ratzkifal

munster1404 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I mostly agree (especially with the restoration of the stealth to the Woodelves), but I feel like there is still room for improvement here.

I also don't get why you nerfed Bretons when they look to be quite a bit weaker next patch due to the CP changes despite them getting numerically buffed. If everyone runs parse food because they don't need more health anymore due to the new CP, then additional sustain from racials won't be needed anymore. They are dropping into the same hole that Redguards and Bosmer are in right now on Live. Also I feel like their passive should now include the new Overcharged status effect too.

The change you made to Argonian's healing done passive is actually quite good to the point where I'd say it didn't go far enough. You could scrap the percentage modifier and give them more spell/weapon damage specifically for healing. But I feel the potion passive at the reduced value is still quite lackluster. Personally I feel it needs to be done away with as there are just too many issues with it. I'll repost my idea for an Argonian rework which I already put in another thread after this to keep it separate from this comment.

Edit: Forgot to talk about Orcs.
I think the reason they got this ridiculous buff to their healing is because of PvP. In PvP that healing is halved and it's not going to replace a healer in PvE, so unless you are doing solo content it's really not as big of a deal.

Tanks are not running parse food anytime soon.

Yes although my point about parse food was about Bretons which are more damage dealers and healers right now anyway. And they will run parse food next patch unless ZOS changes things again.

My point about the Argonian potion passive is a separate one that I could have made more clear I suppose.
The potion passive is weak in long fights. Imperials are sustaining better and after this most recent nerf, Khajiit probably sustain better than Argonians as well. The strength lies in the burst restore, but there lies also the problem. If you use a potion at the start of the fight for brutality, prophecy, sorcery or savagery then you are wasting resources. If one of your resources is at max but your health or the other resource is low and you need to drink a potion, you again waste your resources.
Recovery is never wasted. Recovery can be specialized in by wearing the right type of armor. The potion passive with 3 potion cooldown reduction enchants on infused jewelry restores less than 3 tristat recovery enchants on the same jewelry. So even when investing as much into potions as you possibly can you are still better off doing something else. At least that was the case when I did the math for that, so before 6.3.2, so I'll have to check back on that again. Buffing the potion passive to the point of usefulness in PvE isn't an option unless you want the Murkmire patch Argonians back oppressing everyone in PvP.

honey_badger82

I still think race passives should be player chosen. The first passive given free should be the race defining ones that will not have huge impact on performance combat wise. After that we should have choices to what we want under RSS, recovery, resistance and damage

JobooAGS

Funny thing with these changes bosmer will still be tankier and have more damage than redguard. 1.3k pen and the 200 extra stamina will easily trump the 258 wd from weapon abilities overall. Plus any resistances are better than what redguard has (which is 0). (With abilities like shuffle and rat existing and the passive being useless against roots, snare resistance is useless)

fathym1

JobooAGS wrote: »

Funny thing with these changes bosmer will still be tankier and have more damage than redguard. 1.3k pen and the 200 extra stamina will easily trump the 258 wd from weapon abilities overall. Plus any resistances are better than what redguard has (which is 0). (With abilities like shuffle and rat existing and the passive being useless against roots, snare resistance is useless)

Remember, I said at the beginning, all passives that give only stamina will be increased by 200. So Redguard will also be increased to 2200 stamina. They will also have much more significant sustain compared to bosmer as long as you are using a decent enough amount of weapon skills. They still get 6% of all wep abilities cost and keep their stam restore passive.

JobooAGS

fathym1 wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Funny thing with these changes bosmer will still be tankier and have more damage than redguard. 1.3k pen and the 200 extra stamina will easily trump the 258 wd from weapon abilities overall. Plus any resistances are better than what redguard has (which is 0). (With abilities like shuffle and rat existing and the passive being useless against roots, snare resistance is useless)

Remember, I said at the beginning, all passives that give only stamina will be increased by 200. So Redguard will also be increased to 2200 stamina. They will also have much more significant sustain compared to bosmer as long as you are using a decent enough amount of weapon skills. They still get 6% of all wep abilities cost and keep their stam restore passive.

Sorry about the 200 stamina, it wasn't on the table for redguard.

Though

That 6% to weapon skills won’t amount to much for 2 reasons.
1. Every cost reduction you add be it medium armor, class passives or even the literal weapon skill passives will decrease the effectiveness of it as they are multiplicative rather than additive (subtractive?)
2. Weapon skills are cheap already as they are, you are overestimating the power of the cost reduction.

Additionally bosmer’s sustain is affected by multipliers be it major and minor endurance, class passives, or other passives like continuous assault or battle rush. You can hit insane numbers with all of that

You nerfed redguard’s sustain but buffed its damage slightly while buffing bosmer’s damage and tankiness by a larger amount. By all accounts, bosmer is a much better race overall. I’d take the extra pen and resistances, the potential for more sustain as well as the ability to have more diversified skill bars any day of the week.



Though the 5% movement speed bonus isnt worth too much in pve, in pvp it means you can drop a swift for even more damage or defense or simply gain extra mobility for free.

fathym1

JobooAGS wrote: »

fathym1 wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Funny thing with these changes bosmer will still be tankier and have more damage than redguard. 1.3k pen and the 200 extra stamina will easily trump the 258 wd from weapon abilities overall. Plus any resistances are better than what redguard has (which is 0). (With abilities like shuffle and rat existing and the passive being useless against roots, snare resistance is useless)

Remember, I said at the beginning, all passives that give only stamina will be increased by 200. So Redguard will also be increased to 2200 stamina. They will also have much more significant sustain compared to bosmer as long as you are using a decent enough amount of weapon skills. They still get 6% of all wep abilities cost and keep their stam restore passive.

Sorry about the 200 stamina, it wasn't on the table for redguard.

Though

That 6% to weapon skills won’t amount to much for 2 reasons.
1. Every cost reduction you add be it medium armor, class passives or even the literal weapon skill passives will decrease the effectiveness of it as they are multiplicative rather than additive (subtractive?)
2. Weapon skills are cheap already as they are, you are overestimating the power of the cost reduction.

Additionally bosmer’s sustain is affected by multipliers be it major and minor endurance, class passives, or other passives like continuous assault or battle rush. You can hit insane numbers with all of that

You nerfed redguard’s sustain but buffed its damage slightly while buffing bosmer’s damage and tankiness by a larger amount. By all accounts, bosmer is a much better race overall. I’d take the extra pen and resistances, the potential for more sustain as well as the ability to have more diversified skill bars any day of the week.



Though the 5% movement speed bonus isnt worth too much in pve, in pvp it means you can drop a swift for even more damage or defense or simply gain extra mobility for free.

Hmmmm you're probably right, the Redguard bonus is the most limiting of all the passives and probably needs stronger compensation to make up for it. How about a flat 250 decrease to all weapon abilities instead? That comes out to about 8-10% cost reduction on abilities and gets around the scaling percentage problem.

Also, when calculating the bosmer passive, I counted 9 points towards the movement speed passive with 120 pts going towards the penetration passive. Now that I'm thinking about it though, 9 points probably isn't enough to account for the 5%ms. Maybe 20-25? My question is, how many pts of wep/spell dmg would you give up for a flat 5% movement increase?

JobooAGS

fathym1 wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

fathym1 wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Funny thing with these changes bosmer will still be tankier and have more damage than redguard. 1.3k pen and the 200 extra stamina will easily trump the 258 wd from weapon abilities overall. Plus any resistances are better than what redguard has (which is 0). (With abilities like shuffle and rat existing and the passive being useless against roots, snare resistance is useless)

Remember, I said at the beginning, all passives that give only stamina will be increased by 200. So Redguard will also be increased to 2200 stamina. They will also have much more significant sustain compared to bosmer as long as you are using a decent enough amount of weapon skills. They still get 6% of all wep abilities cost and keep their stam restore passive.

Sorry about the 200 stamina, it wasn't on the table for redguard.

Though

That 6% to weapon skills won’t amount to much for 2 reasons.
1. Every cost reduction you add be it medium armor, class passives or even the literal weapon skill passives will decrease the effectiveness of it as they are multiplicative rather than additive (subtractive?)
2. Weapon skills are cheap already as they are, you are overestimating the power of the cost reduction.

Additionally bosmer’s sustain is affected by multipliers be it major and minor endurance, class passives, or other passives like continuous assault or battle rush. You can hit insane numbers with all of that

You nerfed redguard’s sustain but buffed its damage slightly while buffing bosmer’s damage and tankiness by a larger amount. By all accounts, bosmer is a much better race overall. I’d take the extra pen and resistances, the potential for more sustain as well as the ability to have more diversified skill bars any day of the week.



Though the 5% movement speed bonus isnt worth too much in pve, in pvp it means you can drop a swift for even more damage or defense or simply gain extra mobility for free.

Hmmmm you're probably right, the Redguard bonus is the most limiting of all the passives and probably needs stronger compensation to make up for it. How about a flat 250 decrease to all weapon abilities instead? That comes out to about 8-10% cost reduction on abilities and gets around the scaling percentage problem.

Also, when calculating the bosmer passive, I counted 9 points towards the movement speed passive with 120 pts going towards the penetration passive. Now that I'm thinking about it though, 9 points probably isn't enough to account for the 5%ms. Maybe 20-25? My question is, how many pts of wep/spell dmg would you give up for a flat 5% movement increase?

Considering if swift wasnt as strong as it was, Id be running infused. So 88-104 wd for 6-7% speed increase. Additionally I would give up a mundus be it the lover (pen) or the warrior (wd) for the steed, which is 10% movement speed and 238 health regen.

fathym1

JobooAGS wrote: »

fathym1 wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

fathym1 wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Funny thing with these changes bosmer will still be tankier and have more damage than redguard. 1.3k pen and the 200 extra stamina will easily trump the 258 wd from weapon abilities overall. Plus any resistances are better than what redguard has (which is 0). (With abilities like shuffle and rat existing and the passive being useless against roots, snare resistance is useless)

Remember, I said at the beginning, all passives that give only stamina will be increased by 200. So Redguard will also be increased to 2200 stamina. They will also have much more significant sustain compared to bosmer as long as you are using a decent enough amount of weapon skills. They still get 6% of all wep abilities cost and keep their stam restore passive.

Sorry about the 200 stamina, it wasn't on the table for redguard.

Though

That 6% to weapon skills won’t amount to much for 2 reasons.
1. Every cost reduction you add be it medium armor, class passives or even the literal weapon skill passives will decrease the effectiveness of it as they are multiplicative rather than additive (subtractive?)
2. Weapon skills are cheap already as they are, you are overestimating the power of the cost reduction.

Additionally bosmer’s sustain is affected by multipliers be it major and minor endurance, class passives, or other passives like continuous assault or battle rush. You can hit insane numbers with all of that

You nerfed redguard’s sustain but buffed its damage slightly while buffing bosmer’s damage and tankiness by a larger amount. By all accounts, bosmer is a much better race overall. I’d take the extra pen and resistances, the potential for more sustain as well as the ability to have more diversified skill bars any day of the week.



Though the 5% movement speed bonus isnt worth too much in pve, in pvp it means you can drop a swift for even more damage or defense or simply gain extra mobility for free.

Hmmmm you're probably right, the Redguard bonus is the most limiting of all the passives and probably needs stronger compensation to make up for it. How about a flat 250 decrease to all weapon abilities instead? That comes out to about 8-10% cost reduction on abilities and gets around the scaling percentage problem.

Also, when calculating the bosmer passive, I counted 9 points towards the movement speed passive with 120 pts going towards the penetration passive. Now that I'm thinking about it though, 9 points probably isn't enough to account for the 5%ms. Maybe 20-25? My question is, how many pts of wep/spell dmg would you give up for a flat 5% movement increase?

Considering if swift wasnt as strong as it was, Id be running infused. So 88-104 wd for 6-7% speed increase. Additionally I would give up a mundus be it the lover (pen) or the warrior (wd) for the steed, which is 10% movement speed and 238 health regen.

Hmm this is where pvp and pve get in the way of each other. For pve, while the ms is nice, I dont think its ever worth more the 25 points. So the two options would be to balance it for pvp, so that bosmer are slightly under tuned in pve, or choose a midpoint number like 60. That way it would technically be slightly over tuned in pvp and slightly under tuned in pve but hopefully at a small enough level to not be too noticeable.

fathym1

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Reposting my comment from an Argonian thread:

Argonian Rework - just for fun

Historically Argonians always had the greatest bonus to Athletics out of all the races. Athletics determined how fast you run and swim but also allowed to regenerate Fatigue faster. They've had bonuses to spears and blades but also illusion and mysticism, giving them hybrid vibes. Skyrim gave them an ability to regenerate health, which reminds me of real-life amphibians, so I feel that is fitting and should be kept.

Argonians

1. Adds 2000 magicka and stamina
2. Adds 2310 Disease and Poison Resistance.
3. Adds 258 health and 129 magicka and stamina recovery. While in combat generate 2 ultimate every 5 seconds.

Not sure if those values are balanced for the whole set bonus calculation, but I tried going off of already existing values.

Obviously Argonians are hybrids since they are skilled at both magic and weapon of some kind. Max stat bonuses are important for damage calculation so giving them max stats will already increase their viability as damage dealers. Poison and disease resistance are a must for Argonians, so that one needs no further explanation.

The potion passive had the problem of being tied to the constant use of potions, which is quite limiting, especially if you don't have the funds to fuel that addiction, so in order to address this I felt like changing their potion bonus for tri-stat recovery akin to Amber Plasm but not quite as powerful in order to not outshine Bretons or Bosmer in their respective niche with a little bit of Champion of the Hist mixed in.

The base resource recovery values are lower than that of the old potion passive(the unnerfed one as on live) but Major Endurance/Intellect boost it to be very slightly above the old value with armor boni to recovery making it better than it was when specializing, at the cost of stamina recovery being put to 0 when blocking or sprinting. Since this would be a nerf to existing Argonian tanks, I feel like they needed compensation in the form of ultimate generation, which is one of the most desireable stats for tanks, but is also much appreciated by healers who want something else after the bonus to healing done was removed.

The ultimate value was chosen to be weaker than Nord's in order to not steal their niche but also doesn't require to be taking damage, which makes Argonians better as healers and damage dealers in that regard without having any other offensive boosts. In terms of strength, Nords get an additional use of Warhorn every 8minutes and 20seconds while Argonians get one every 10minutes and Imperials get theirs "6% faster", its strength depending on how fast they were getting it in the first place.

The health recovery is stronger than the other values because no race in ESO so far has been specialized into having the biggest health recovery among them, which I feel Argonians could very well do. Khajiit are the only ones with a bonus to it right now, but it is rather small and at small values health recovery isn't all that useful. Thematically it also does not really fit the cats as well.

Something that may be bad about this suggestion is that it takes what some people wanted as a quality of life improvement for Nords and makes it an essential part of the Argonian identity instead, but I feel Nords have a much clearer identity than Argonians right now and are by no means in a bad spot in their niche even after the nerf. It's also possible that Bretons would be sidelined as healers despite their far superior sustain simply because ultimate generation is so good, but I doubt that would be the case since Nord healers haven't replaced them yet and even healers take damage regularly enough to proc the effect.

I think your approach of adding Spell/Weapon Damage to healing abilities could also be a good alternative to the ultimate generation I gave them. I just wanted to put my rework idea here because I feel we don't need to be tied to the use of potions on that passive and deal with PvP issues resulting from the burst heal or overheal causing loss of effectiveness. Also the math with the recovery was done before 6.3.2

I've made updates putting taking your Argonian ideas into consideration. I want the classes to stay as unique as possible so didnt want to add something like ultimate gain. I really like you're Idea of making Argonians the king of resource recovery so I made changes that heavily lean in that direction. I also doubled the health proc for orc bc of what you said. Its still quite a bit lower than the patch version lol. This is the revised version. I also made some other changes based on stuff I missed and other suggestions. Id be interested to see your thoughts.

JobooAGS

fathym1 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Reposting my comment from an Argonian thread:

Argonian Rework - just for fun

Historically Argonians always had the greatest bonus to Athletics out of all the races. Athletics determined how fast you run and swim but also allowed to regenerate Fatigue faster. They've had bonuses to spears and blades but also illusion and mysticism, giving them hybrid vibes. Skyrim gave them an ability to regenerate health, which reminds me of real-life amphibians, so I feel that is fitting and should be kept.

Argonians

1. Adds 2000 magicka and stamina
2. Adds 2310 Disease and Poison Resistance.
3. Adds 258 health and 129 magicka and stamina recovery. While in combat generate 2 ultimate every 5 seconds.

Not sure if those values are balanced for the whole set bonus calculation, but I tried going off of already existing values.

Obviously Argonians are hybrids since they are skilled at both magic and weapon of some kind. Max stat bonuses are important for damage calculation so giving them max stats will already increase their viability as damage dealers. Poison and disease resistance are a must for Argonians, so that one needs no further explanation.

The potion passive had the problem of being tied to the constant use of potions, which is quite limiting, especially if you don't have the funds to fuel that addiction, so in order to address this I felt like changing their potion bonus for tri-stat recovery akin to Amber Plasm but not quite as powerful in order to not outshine Bretons or Bosmer in their respective niche with a little bit of Champion of the Hist mixed in.

The base resource recovery values are lower than that of the old potion passive(the unnerfed one as on live) but Major Endurance/Intellect boost it to be very slightly above the old value with armor boni to recovery making it better than it was when specializing, at the cost of stamina recovery being put to 0 when blocking or sprinting. Since this would be a nerf to existing Argonian tanks, I feel like they needed compensation in the form of ultimate generation, which is one of the most desireable stats for tanks, but is also much appreciated by healers who want something else after the bonus to healing done was removed.

The ultimate value was chosen to be weaker than Nord's in order to not steal their niche but also doesn't require to be taking damage, which makes Argonians better as healers and damage dealers in that regard without having any other offensive boosts. In terms of strength, Nords get an additional use of Warhorn every 8minutes and 20seconds while Argonians get one every 10minutes and Imperials get theirs "6% faster", its strength depending on how fast they were getting it in the first place.

The health recovery is stronger than the other values because no race in ESO so far has been specialized into having the biggest health recovery among them, which I feel Argonians could very well do. Khajiit are the only ones with a bonus to it right now, but it is rather small and at small values health recovery isn't all that useful. Thematically it also does not really fit the cats as well.

Something that may be bad about this suggestion is that it takes what some people wanted as a quality of life improvement for Nords and makes it an essential part of the Argonian identity instead, but I feel Nords have a much clearer identity than Argonians right now and are by no means in a bad spot in their niche even after the nerf. It's also possible that Bretons would be sidelined as healers despite their far superior sustain simply because ultimate generation is so good, but I doubt that would be the case since Nord healers haven't replaced them yet and even healers take damage regularly enough to proc the effect.

I think your approach of adding Spell/Weapon Damage to healing abilities could also be a good alternative to the ultimate generation I gave them. I just wanted to put my rework idea here because I feel we don't need to be tied to the use of potions on that passive and deal with PvP issues resulting from the burst heal or overheal causing loss of effectiveness. Also the math with the recovery was done before 6.3.2

I've made updates putting taking your Argonian ideas into consideration. I want the classes to stay as unique as possible so didnt want to add something like ultimate gain. I really like you're Idea of making Argonians the king of resource recovery so I made changes that heavily lean in that direction. I also doubled the health proc for orc bc of what you said. Its still quite a bit lower than the patch version lol. This is the revised version. I also made some other changes based on stuff I missed and other suggestions. Id be interested to see your thoughts.

Redguard on pts is now all damage not just direct damage now.

fathym1

JobooAGS wrote: »

fathym1 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Reposting my comment from an Argonian thread:

Argonian Rework - just for fun

Historically Argonians always had the greatest bonus to Athletics out of all the races. Athletics determined how fast you run and swim but also allowed to regenerate Fatigue faster. They've had bonuses to spears and blades but also illusion and mysticism, giving them hybrid vibes. Skyrim gave them an ability to regenerate health, which reminds me of real-life amphibians, so I feel that is fitting and should be kept.

Argonians

1. Adds 2000 magicka and stamina
2. Adds 2310 Disease and Poison Resistance.
3. Adds 258 health and 129 magicka and stamina recovery. While in combat generate 2 ultimate every 5 seconds.

Not sure if those values are balanced for the whole set bonus calculation, but I tried going off of already existing values.

Obviously Argonians are hybrids since they are skilled at both magic and weapon of some kind. Max stat bonuses are important for damage calculation so giving them max stats will already increase their viability as damage dealers. Poison and disease resistance are a must for Argonians, so that one needs no further explanation.

The potion passive had the problem of being tied to the constant use of potions, which is quite limiting, especially if you don't have the funds to fuel that addiction, so in order to address this I felt like changing their potion bonus for tri-stat recovery akin to Amber Plasm but not quite as powerful in order to not outshine Bretons or Bosmer in their respective niche with a little bit of Champion of the Hist mixed in.

The base resource recovery values are lower than that of the old potion passive(the unnerfed one as on live) but Major Endurance/Intellect boost it to be very slightly above the old value with armor boni to recovery making it better than it was when specializing, at the cost of stamina recovery being put to 0 when blocking or sprinting. Since this would be a nerf to existing Argonian tanks, I feel like they needed compensation in the form of ultimate generation, which is one of the most desireable stats for tanks, but is also much appreciated by healers who want something else after the bonus to healing done was removed.

The ultimate value was chosen to be weaker than Nord's in order to not steal their niche but also doesn't require to be taking damage, which makes Argonians better as healers and damage dealers in that regard without having any other offensive boosts. In terms of strength, Nords get an additional use of Warhorn every 8minutes and 20seconds while Argonians get one every 10minutes and Imperials get theirs "6% faster", its strength depending on how fast they were getting it in the first place.

The health recovery is stronger than the other values because no race in ESO so far has been specialized into having the biggest health recovery among them, which I feel Argonians could very well do. Khajiit are the only ones with a bonus to it right now, but it is rather small and at small values health recovery isn't all that useful. Thematically it also does not really fit the cats as well.

Something that may be bad about this suggestion is that it takes what some people wanted as a quality of life improvement for Nords and makes it an essential part of the Argonian identity instead, but I feel Nords have a much clearer identity than Argonians right now and are by no means in a bad spot in their niche even after the nerf. It's also possible that Bretons would be sidelined as healers despite their far superior sustain simply because ultimate generation is so good, but I doubt that would be the case since Nord healers haven't replaced them yet and even healers take damage regularly enough to proc the effect.

I think your approach of adding Spell/Weapon Damage to healing abilities could also be a good alternative to the ultimate generation I gave them. I just wanted to put my rework idea here because I feel we don't need to be tied to the use of potions on that passive and deal with PvP issues resulting from the burst heal or overheal causing loss of effectiveness. Also the math with the recovery was done before 6.3.2

I've made updates putting taking your Argonian ideas into consideration. I want the classes to stay as unique as possible so didnt want to add something like ultimate gain. I really like you're Idea of making Argonians the king of resource recovery so I made changes that heavily lean in that direction. I also doubled the health proc for orc bc of what you said. Its still quite a bit lower than the patch version lol. This is the revised version. I also made some other changes based on stuff I missed and other suggestions. Id be interested to see your thoughts.

Redguard on pts is now all damage not just direct damage now.

woops ty. I wish I could edit my original post to update the list but apparently I can only edit my comments.

Ratzkifal

fathym1 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Reposting my comment from an Argonian thread:

Argonian Rework - just for fun

Historically Argonians always had the greatest bonus to Athletics out of all the races. Athletics determined how fast you run and swim but also allowed to regenerate Fatigue faster. They've had bonuses to spears and blades but also illusion and mysticism, giving them hybrid vibes. Skyrim gave them an ability to regenerate health, which reminds me of real-life amphibians, so I feel that is fitting and should be kept.

Argonians

1. Adds 2000 magicka and stamina
2. Adds 2310 Disease and Poison Resistance.
3. Adds 258 health and 129 magicka and stamina recovery. While in combat generate 2 ultimate every 5 seconds.

Not sure if those values are balanced for the whole set bonus calculation, but I tried going off of already existing values.

Obviously Argonians are hybrids since they are skilled at both magic and weapon of some kind. Max stat bonuses are important for damage calculation so giving them max stats will already increase their viability as damage dealers. Poison and disease resistance are a must for Argonians, so that one needs no further explanation.

The potion passive had the problem of being tied to the constant use of potions, which is quite limiting, especially if you don't have the funds to fuel that addiction, so in order to address this I felt like changing their potion bonus for tri-stat recovery akin to Amber Plasm but not quite as powerful in order to not outshine Bretons or Bosmer in their respective niche with a little bit of Champion of the Hist mixed in.

The base resource recovery values are lower than that of the old potion passive(the unnerfed one as on live) but Major Endurance/Intellect boost it to be very slightly above the old value with armor boni to recovery making it better than it was when specializing, at the cost of stamina recovery being put to 0 when blocking or sprinting. Since this would be a nerf to existing Argonian tanks, I feel like they needed compensation in the form of ultimate generation, which is one of the most desireable stats for tanks, but is also much appreciated by healers who want something else after the bonus to healing done was removed.

The ultimate value was chosen to be weaker than Nord's in order to not steal their niche but also doesn't require to be taking damage, which makes Argonians better as healers and damage dealers in that regard without having any other offensive boosts. In terms of strength, Nords get an additional use of Warhorn every 8minutes and 20seconds while Argonians get one every 10minutes and Imperials get theirs "6% faster", its strength depending on how fast they were getting it in the first place.

The health recovery is stronger than the other values because no race in ESO so far has been specialized into having the biggest health recovery among them, which I feel Argonians could very well do. Khajiit are the only ones with a bonus to it right now, but it is rather small and at small values health recovery isn't all that useful. Thematically it also does not really fit the cats as well.

Something that may be bad about this suggestion is that it takes what some people wanted as a quality of life improvement for Nords and makes it an essential part of the Argonian identity instead, but I feel Nords have a much clearer identity than Argonians right now and are by no means in a bad spot in their niche even after the nerf. It's also possible that Bretons would be sidelined as healers despite their far superior sustain simply because ultimate generation is so good, but I doubt that would be the case since Nord healers haven't replaced them yet and even healers take damage regularly enough to proc the effect.

I think your approach of adding Spell/Weapon Damage to healing abilities could also be a good alternative to the ultimate generation I gave them. I just wanted to put my rework idea here because I feel we don't need to be tied to the use of potions on that passive and deal with PvP issues resulting from the burst heal or overheal causing loss of effectiveness. Also the math with the recovery was done before 6.3.2

I've made updates putting taking your Argonian ideas into consideration. I want the classes to stay as unique as possible so didnt want to add something like ultimate gain. I really like you're Idea of making Argonians the king of resource recovery so I made changes that heavily lean in that direction. I also doubled the health proc for orc bc of what you said. Its still quite a bit lower than the patch version lol. This is the revised version. I also made some other changes based on stuff I missed and other suggestions. Id be interested to see your thoughts.

Those Argonian passives are looking juicy! The percentage increase might be a bit overkill though, that adds up a little bit too quickly if you ask me. The rest looks good.

fathym1

Ratzkifal wrote: »

fathym1 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Reposting my comment from an Argonian thread:

Argonian Rework - just for fun

Historically Argonians always had the greatest bonus to Athletics out of all the races. Athletics determined how fast you run and swim but also allowed to regenerate Fatigue faster. They've had bonuses to spears and blades but also illusion and mysticism, giving them hybrid vibes. Skyrim gave them an ability to regenerate health, which reminds me of real-life amphibians, so I feel that is fitting and should be kept.

Argonians

1. Adds 2000 magicka and stamina
2. Adds 2310 Disease and Poison Resistance.
3. Adds 258 health and 129 magicka and stamina recovery. While in combat generate 2 ultimate every 5 seconds.

Not sure if those values are balanced for the whole set bonus calculation, but I tried going off of already existing values.

Obviously Argonians are hybrids since they are skilled at both magic and weapon of some kind. Max stat bonuses are important for damage calculation so giving them max stats will already increase their viability as damage dealers. Poison and disease resistance are a must for Argonians, so that one needs no further explanation.

The potion passive had the problem of being tied to the constant use of potions, which is quite limiting, especially if you don't have the funds to fuel that addiction, so in order to address this I felt like changing their potion bonus for tri-stat recovery akin to Amber Plasm but not quite as powerful in order to not outshine Bretons or Bosmer in their respective niche with a little bit of Champion of the Hist mixed in.

The base resource recovery values are lower than that of the old potion passive(the unnerfed one as on live) but Major Endurance/Intellect boost it to be very slightly above the old value with armor boni to recovery making it better than it was when specializing, at the cost of stamina recovery being put to 0 when blocking or sprinting. Since this would be a nerf to existing Argonian tanks, I feel like they needed compensation in the form of ultimate generation, which is one of the most desireable stats for tanks, but is also much appreciated by healers who want something else after the bonus to healing done was removed.

The ultimate value was chosen to be weaker than Nord's in order to not steal their niche but also doesn't require to be taking damage, which makes Argonians better as healers and damage dealers in that regard without having any other offensive boosts. In terms of strength, Nords get an additional use of Warhorn every 8minutes and 20seconds while Argonians get one every 10minutes and Imperials get theirs "6% faster", its strength depending on how fast they were getting it in the first place.

The health recovery is stronger than the other values because no race in ESO so far has been specialized into having the biggest health recovery among them, which I feel Argonians could very well do. Khajiit are the only ones with a bonus to it right now, but it is rather small and at small values health recovery isn't all that useful. Thematically it also does not really fit the cats as well.

Something that may be bad about this suggestion is that it takes what some people wanted as a quality of life improvement for Nords and makes it an essential part of the Argonian identity instead, but I feel Nords have a much clearer identity than Argonians right now and are by no means in a bad spot in their niche even after the nerf. It's also possible that Bretons would be sidelined as healers despite their far superior sustain simply because ultimate generation is so good, but I doubt that would be the case since Nord healers haven't replaced them yet and even healers take damage regularly enough to proc the effect.

I think your approach of adding Spell/Weapon Damage to healing abilities could also be a good alternative to the ultimate generation I gave them. I just wanted to put my rework idea here because I feel we don't need to be tied to the use of potions on that passive and deal with PvP issues resulting from the burst heal or overheal causing loss of effectiveness. Also the math with the recovery was done before 6.3.2

I've made updates putting taking your Argonian ideas into consideration. I want the classes to stay as unique as possible so didnt want to add something like ultimate gain. I really like you're Idea of making Argonians the king of resource recovery so I made changes that heavily lean in that direction. I also doubled the health proc for orc bc of what you said. Its still quite a bit lower than the patch version lol. This is the revised version. I also made some other changes based on stuff I missed and other suggestions. Id be interested to see your thoughts.

Those Argonian passives are looking juicy! The percentage increase might be a bit overkill though, that adds up a little bit too quickly if you ask me. The rest looks good.

after doing the math, you're right the percentage is over tuned for a 65 pt passive. Ill lower it 8% that way, at 800 recovery you get bonus 64 recovery so you break even on the passive. If you have more recovery than 800 you will get a bonus but I think that is fine since your are building pretty heavily for it at that point. It would be quite interesting actually because, with the percent recovery passive, the 6% healing done passive and a set like eternal vigor, Argonians would really good healing based tanks, on the same level as Nords. However, the one very important caveat with a passive like this, is that it absolutely has to stack additively with major and minor recovery buffs.

Changed

Fuzzybrick

Isn't the whole point of racial passives, to be unbalanced?

"rock paper scissors"

Luckylancer

Good job. But I want to point out redguard is still abysmaly bad. They may get a good damage boost at high stamina and magicka resource. This way they will get damage boost in high regen meta (pre morrowind) and higher regen during low regen meta (morrowind meta).

Fuzzybrick wrote: »

Isn't the whole point of racial passives, to be unbalanced?

"rock paper scissors"

No

selig_fay

What is considered a healing ability? For example, a necromancer has an ability that both heals and deals damage. Does it count?

Ladislao

fathym1 wrote: »

Changed

Redguards: Why did you remove the cost reduction of weapon ultimates? Is it insignificant for you?

ApoAlaia

Ladislao wrote: »

fathym1 wrote: »

Changed

Redguards: Why did you remove the cost reduction of weapon ultimates? Is it insignificant for you?

Not to put words on OP's mouth but... does anyone use weapon ultimates?

JobooAGS

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

fathym1 wrote: »

Changed

Redguards: Why did you remove the cost reduction of weapon ultimates? Is it insignificant for you?

Not to put words on OP's mouth but... does anyone use weapon ultimates?

Ballista is used in pve for classes that don't have incap or collossus. for bow builds it is used there too. snb ult is used extensively in pve (when horn is not required) and pvp. Destro ult and resto ult are quite popular in pvp and pve too. (less so resto ult in pve). I can't remember the last time I seen the dw ult ever, however the 2h ult I seen on select gank builds and burst orietned stam sorc builds (though it is rare)

ApoAlaia

JobooAGS wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

fathym1 wrote: »

Changed

Redguards: Why did you remove the cost reduction of weapon ultimates? Is it insignificant for you?

Not to put words on OP's mouth but... does anyone use weapon ultimates?

Ballista is used in pve for classes that don't have incap or collossus. for bow builds it is used there too. snb ult is used extensively in pve (when horn is not required) and pvp. Destro ult and resto ult are quite popular in pvp and pve too. (less so resto ult in pve). I can't remember the last time I seen the dw ult ever, however the 2h ult I seen on select gank builds and burst orietned stam sorc builds (though it is rare)

That was very informative, thanks!

Ratzkifal

selig_fay wrote: »

What is considered a healing ability? For example, a necromancer has an ability that both heals and deals damage. Does it count?

The way I interpret it, any ability with a healing component gets a boost from this.

Ratzkifal

JobooAGS wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

fathym1 wrote: »

Changed

Redguards: Why did you remove the cost reduction of weapon ultimates? Is it insignificant for you?

Not to put words on OP's mouth but... does anyone use weapon ultimates?

Ballista is used in pve for classes that don't have incap or collossus. for bow builds it is used there too. snb ult is used extensively in pve (when horn is not required) and pvp. Destro ult and resto ult are quite popular in pvp and pve too. (less so resto ult in pve). I can't remember the last time I seen the dw ult ever, however the 2h ult I seen on select gank builds and burst orietned stam sorc builds (though it is rare)

Adding to that, the 2h ultimate is good against Werewolves.

fathym1

selig_fay wrote: »

What is considered a healing ability? For example, a necromancer has an ability that both heals and deals damage. Does it count?

Any ability with a healing component that scales off of spell or weapon damage will be affected by the 258 spell/wep dmg. It would not affect spells that scale purely off of maximum health or spells that heal based on damage dealt.

Ladislao wrote: »

fathym1 wrote: »

Changed

Redguards: Why did you remove the cost reduction of weapon ultimates? Is it insignificant for you?

Luckylancer wrote: »

Good job. But I want to point out redguard is still abysmaly bad. They may get a good damage boost at high stamina and magicka resource. This way they will get damage boost in high regen meta (pre morrowind) and higher regen during low regen meta (morrowind meta).

Fuzzybrick wrote: »

Isn't the whole point of racial passives, to be unbalanced?

"rock paper scissors"

No

Removing the ultimate discount was an oversite when I made the change. After seeing the feedback, I've decided that trying to balance with the discount passive is too difficult and a waste of time considering the best option is to just drop it and increase the weapon damage to a sufficient level. To determine the weapon damage amount, I looked to Hundings and Sword Dancer. hundings is 300 wep dmg. 86% of that is 258. sword dancer is 600. 86% of that is 516. (258+516)/2=387spell/wep dmg. When balancing gets too hard just fall back on the simple maths.

New changes