6 simple changes to big improve PVP but PVE remains the same

HiImRex

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Hi everybody, title says it all. This is a list of small and simple changes I believe will drastically improve PVP next patch. AFAIK these changes will all be relatively simple, work very well together in terms of balancing all the most egregious mechanics at once rather than nerfing 1 while leaving the other intact, and will not affect PVE at all. I also included explanations so devs and players can consider the reasoning.

These changes are meant to work with and complement the changes already implemented in the PTS 6.3.1 Flames of Ambition patch, and will play nice with CP and no CP pvp.

(1) Malacath nerfed to +15% damage done (currently +25%)

The number can be adjusted but 15% is probably the lowest you can go without making this item useless.

Even at 15%, this one item will increase your damage more than the entire Stuhn's set bonuses combined. This is plenty strong and leaves open Malacath as a viable option to build around, without making it a no-brainer in pvp.

(2) Innate player impen value reduced to 675, or 10% crit resist (currently 1350, or 20% crit resist)

This change will effectively add a flat, ADDITIVE +10% modifier to all crit damage done in PVP only.

With crit chances being nerfed, the meta is going to be pushed even harder into Malacath. But if crit gets buffed too much, it becomes meta. If Malacath gets nerfed too hard, it becomes unusable.

The solution is a modest nerf to Malacath, and a small buff to crit, which this provides.

If this isn't enough of a buff to crit, then Battle Spirit can add a flat 5% crit chance to all players as well.

(3) 2 HP-based heals (Arctic Blast and Hircine's Fortitude) get a 10% cost increase

These two HP based heals are overperforming, and HP based heals will be stronger than ever next-patch, especially in no-CP pvp.

However, they are a somewhat unique mechanic that players can build around, and completely reworking how these abilities work would be a huge pain for the developers with little payoff since there's always the risk that they just become completely unusuable or broken in some new, unforeseen ways.

The nerf should be small, since Werewolf is already getting slightly nerfed next patch and in this fantasy world where ZOS implements these changes, Malacath will also be nerfed, furthering reducing the power of max HP-based builds.

The small cost increase should make max HP builds still viable on Wardens and Werewolves, make the ability still useful for those with lower max HP, and punishes excessively defensive Warden/WW play by more quickly draining their resources.

(4) Only 1 named proc set DoT can be applied to a player at a time

Multiple instances of the same proc set Damage-Over-Time effects should not stack infinitely. Currently, if a 4 man group of players are all running Unleashed Terror (https://eso-sets.com/set/unleashed-terror) and vMA 2h (https://eso-sets.com/set/perfected-merciless-charge), then they can apply 4 separate Unleashed Terror dots and 4 separate vMA dots which all stack to do insane damage.

Not only is this frustrating to play against, it kills group comp diversity because everyone in a pvp group (for instance, a BG team) will just stack the "best" proc sets.

Every player should only be affected by 1 named proc DoT effect at most. No more connecting 4 Vateshran Ele beams on 1 person, no more stacking 4 unleashed terrors on 1 person. This will also force larger groups to diversify their proc sets if they want to maximize their numbers advantage over smaller groups of opponents.

(5) Transformation Ultis should not give you a full heal (necro goliath and vampire scion)
(I know Goliath is not technically a full heal, but it might as well be at 30k restored + 30k max HP)

Currently, using Goliath of Vamp Scion transformation completely resets the fight, WHILE giving the transforming player a huge power spike for 20 seconds.

This has given rise to a playstyle which the hardcore PvP community has lovingly dubbed "clownform". No one likes being robbed of kills you worked super hard to earn. It's not fair and it's not fun.

The fix is simple. Vamp Scion should only restore a flat 10,000 HP upon transformation. A vampire player is at 2000 HP and about to die. He hits Scion. Currently, this effectively gives the player an instant 40,000 HP heal. After the fix, the player should transform and have 12,000 HP.

Goliath should restore 15,000 HP upon transformation to help them better make use of the 30,000 max HP, but in exchange the cost of the ultimate should go up to 300 to match Vamp Scion.

The transformations should be powerful, but it should not be an insane full reset button. This way, a player is encouraged to transform more aggressively, while still being able to be punished for bad play.

(6) Mistform should get a VERY SPECIFIC scaling cost increase

Mistform is a weird ability in terms of balance.

There's a few voices in the community that have never played or tested mistform builds in real PVP scenarios who are asking for all sorts of nerfs that will essentially destroy Vampire in pvp completely. But I totally understand why they feel this way, because in SPECIFIC scenarios, a build that has overinvested into Mistform can be extremely unfair and unfun to play against.

The problem is simple: the ability to remain in mistform forever.

The solution, however, requires a little bit of thought. Let me explain:

IF you revert mistform back to high-cost 4 second channel, I'm sorry to tell you that no one who actually understands this game will go vamp in PvP anymore. The old mistform was viable in the OLD meta, but it will not be viable in the current meta. IF mistform just gets reverted to a high cost 4 second ability, curing Vamp and building for block-mitigation with Race against Time will again be the ONLY option for slow mag classes who actually want to actually perform in PvP. And they will NEVER do it as effectively as stam classes. I won't waste paragraphs explaining why in this post, but if you are genuinely curious as to my reasoning, feel free to send me a private message and I'd be happy to explain, or maybe I'll explain in one of my reply posts.

The same is true for the following: disabling HP regen, turning off ALL magicka return while mistforming, or making it impossible to invest reduced spell cost glyphs into the ability. ALL 3 of these these changes will make mistform 100% unusable and again, if you're not sold, I will be happy to explain in DM or in a reply post.

But there is a fix that will allow slow magicka classes to make use of mistform in a skillful way while getting rid of the unfun, unfair ability to stay in mist for 10+ seconds with little consequence: scaling cost increase.

Dodge roll has it, Streak has it, and for the EXACT SAME REASON THEY HAVE IT, Mistform should have it.

The perfect mistform cost increase should apply this way:

(A) After channeling for 3 seconds, the cost of Mistform begins to increase every second (similar to how Blood for Blood HP cost increases every tick)

(B) The cost-increase should be a FLAT number, not a %, and DOUBLE every second you remain in Mistform (after the initial 3 seconds):

ASSUMING triple infused cost-reduction jewelry glyphs:

First tick: 400
Second tick: 400
Third tick: 400
Fourth tick: 400 + 150
Fifth tick: 400 + 300
Sixth tick: 400 + 600
Seventh tick: 400 + 1200
Eighth tick: 400 + 2400
Ninth tick: 400 + 4800
etc.

(C) The cost-increase should persist for 2 seconds after leaving Mistform. Recasting Mistform within that time refreshes the timer and continues to exponentially increase cost.

These changes accomplish two things:

First, it allows Mistform players to weave the ability into their PvP rotations to mitigate burst abilities, predictively guard against enemy CC, and retain mobility in CC heavy fights.

Second, it punishes Mistform players for overrelying on Mistform, while rewarding Mistform players for good management of the 3 second / 2 second windows. Meanwhile, Mistform players will still get the OPTION of using Mistform for prolonged periods of time... but they will have to pay a big cost in order to do so.

Put simply, it raises the Mistform skill ceiling, creates counterplay, puts a hard limit on how long somebody can stay in Mistform, while keeping Mistform as a viable alternative to the RaT/block-mitigation playtsyle.

----

The goal of these changes is not to create a wishlist of game-transforming overhauls. These are small, realistic changes that will hit the biggest issues that plague PvP today. They also address issues that the PTS patchnotes do NOT address. If you love ESO PVP please show your support on this thread, and even if it's not this patch cycle, maybe @ZOS_BrianWheeler will consider some of these issues for future patches.

Olupajmibanan

How will cost increase on Arctic Blast not affect PvE? It's the only reliable heal for warden tanks and it is already pretty costly. Don't ask for freaking PvE nerfs because of PvP, we are getting really mad at that.

Also don't forget that Battle Spirit 5k health bonus is being removed next monday.

WrathOfInnos

You make some good points, but I have to disagree with #4. Your gear set should never fail to work just because one of your allies happens to be wearing the same thing. Not every group is that coordinated. How would it even choose which DoT stayed and which got cleansed or prevented from applying? Could a random ally in Cyrodiil with 0 penetration or damage done buffs prevent an enemy from taking damage from someone with Malacath and high penetration?

It also wouldn’t affect the coordinated groups much, they would still stack 4 set proc DoTs on an enemy, just would plan for it to be from 4 different sets. I agree that it sucks to die to stacking procs, and it’s slightly more annoying to see the same set multiple times in a death recap, but in reality if you’re outnumbered that badly it’s going to end in death regardless of which proc set is chosen.

SgtNuttzmeg

I like it. Maybe look at limiting purging/hots to compensate for the loss of dots.

Jayroo

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

How will cost increase on Arctic Blast not affect PvE? It's the only reliable heal for warden tanks and it is already pretty costly. Don't ask for freaking PvE nerfs because of PvP, we are getting really mad at that.

Also don't forget that Battle Spirit 5k health bonus is being removed next monday.

Seriously, I'm so sick of pvp problems leaking into pve. All I can imagine is Mr. Brian screeching "NO" and crossing his arms like an 8 year old who refuses to eat his spinach when the community asks for separate balancing

Olupajmibanan

Jayroo wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

How will cost increase on Arctic Blast not affect PvE? It's the only reliable heal for warden tanks and it is already pretty costly. Don't ask for freaking PvE nerfs because of PvP, we are getting really mad at that.

Also don't forget that Battle Spirit 5k health bonus is being removed next monday.

Seriously, I'm so sick of pvp problems leaking into pve. All I can imagine is Mr. Brian screeching "NO" and crossing his arms like an 8 year old who refuses to eat his spinach when the community asks for separate balancing

While the opportunity to balance PvP and PvE separately is huge now:
1. Remove CPs from PvP entirely.
2. Rework Battle Spirit.
3. Voila! You can balance PvE through CPs + ground AoEs such as Wall of Elements and PvP through Battle Spirit + single target spammables/dots.

OlumoGarbag

All of these changes would make pvp so much more enjoyable and the only thing that would affect pve a little bit would be artic blast nerf. But seriously which tank needs to constantly spam heals in pve?
And a 10% cost increase isnt much... it would make imperial is stronger tank choice.

dcmgti

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

All of these changes would make pvp so much more enjoyable and the only thing that would affect pve a little bit would be artic blast nerf. But seriously which tank needs to constantly spam heals in pve?
And a 10% cost increase isnt much... it would make imperial is stronger tank choice.

Its expensive on a tank and need to use it more often than one would think. Will that change next patch with supposed damage reduction? Can't say for sure.

soulferin

It will change literally nothing, after one week You will find another 6 solutions to save pvp.

Elo106

This would make PvP better on all points.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

How will cost increase on Arctic Blast not affect PvE? It's the only reliable heal for warden tanks and it is already pretty costly. Don't ask for freaking PvE nerfs because of PvP, we are getting really mad at that.

Wouldnt this be good since it would make a healer more important for group?

EirgarthEldjarns

They should just somehow utilize battle spirit in a different way... not a fan of comparing ESO to other games, but GW2 (which has it's own issues), but one thing that they do have, depending on game mode, skill damage and some utility change...

So maybe look at a way where if you have battle spirit, certain skills work (or scale) differently... I hate the fact that PvE seems to get hosed every so often because a skill/item is deemed OP for PvP... despite what a lot may think, but this is a PvE game that happens to have PvP zones...

I have run (yes you can laugh) a 2H/2H stamplar since early access... <bows are for cowards and elves!>... and I find that it either doesn't get necessary buffs in PvE (at least in my opinion), because of the burst damage it can do in PvP... it is much better now then it used to be, or when it does get something that is worthwhile, folks scream that X skill is too OP....

In the last couple of weeks, I have seen folks wanting to nerf some 2H skills (because of PvP), I saw one post that wanted Rally taken away from 2H and put into Fighter's Guild because they felt it was the only useful thing about 2H, which speaks volumes on how folks look at 2H in PvE...

Now I don't even know if that would be possible (to adjust Battle Spirit), but it is frustrating when PvE skills suffer because of PvP.

Eir

dcmgti

I also think the goliath/vamp ults are fine. They are defensive ults and the AOE effect doesn't really do that much damage. Yes it resets the fight, but shouldn't an ultimate be able to do that? Unless they are running a gap closer its easy to stay away from them until they go back to normal. After that I don't have to watch for an ice comet, DB, colossus for a while. And if that is the ult they are choosing to use then I usually don't have to worry about it at all.

Mist itself is fine I think. It literally can do nothing except mitigate damage. If classes like magcro, magplar and magdk had good class mobility options then mist wouldn't be used much I don't think. Except for the ones that cheese it. But those people will find a way to cheese the next thing. Code mist to turn off any procs/beams and cost reduction glyphs can't affect it sure. Most people who use it purely as a kite/LOS tool will still use it.

ESO_Nightingale

Jayroo wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

How will cost increase on Arctic Blast not affect PvE? It's the only reliable heal for warden tanks and it is already pretty costly. Don't ask for freaking PvE nerfs because of PvP, we are getting really mad at that.

Also don't forget that Battle Spirit 5k health bonus is being removed next monday.

Seriously, I'm so sick of pvp problems leaking into pve. All I can imagine is Mr. Brian screeching "NO" and crossing his arms like an 8 year old who refuses to eat his spinach when the community asks for separate balancing

Increasing cost is a bad idea for the future of that skill imo. They really need to adjust health scaling healing as a whole. Specifically the healing portion. I'm a beliver that arctic blast shouldn't have a heal and should instead be a fully realised damage and stun skill that works with our existing kit. Polar wind should remain as is, but absolutely be tuned for the amount of healing it does in pvp. Then to compensate for this, living trellis needs it's burst heal increased by 55%. This puts it on par with blessing of restoration. Or slightly higher. That's how bad of a state the heal is in at the moment.

Ancalag

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

All of these changes would make pvp so much more enjoyable and the only thing that would affect pve a little bit would be artic blast nerf. But seriously which tank needs to constantly spam heals in pve?
And a 10% cost increase isnt much... it would make imperial is stronger tank choice.

I think you never did HM trials as a tank. You often need to perform alone without any healer (Cloudrest), or sometime it hits so hard that even with a healer you have to constant heal yourself (dragon breath in Sunspire). Same for DD btw.

LightYagami

I have some suggestions about the high health meta problem (in PvP):

1. Health based damage should be nerfed. Enough of those tanky DPS meta.

2. Set a hard ceiling to max health. 100k health stamcro tanks in Crimson are broken.

3. Health recovery should be nerfed. Those wardens with high health and high recovery, and can still deal high damage with health builds.

ccfeeling

If you bad at pvp, just leave it.

Narvuntien

I feel like you should be able to do some kind of analysis to compare Proc damage compared to ability damage and then compare it to the medium/light armor ability damage.

Groups spamming procs is little different to groups spamming abilities on you both will kill you.

Malacath 100% needs a nerf.

Maybe put a delay on the HP % heals, usually, once the Boss hits in PVE usually they don't hit you hard right after. If you have stepped heal or something to give time to execute and make define doubly effective.

Transform ultis can be super annoying although I have used them myself but often struggle with the lag to activate them in time. I kind of feel like they are balanced by the fact they are ultimate and are inherently limited. Even if it is annoying.

actosh

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

How will cost increase on Arctic Blast not affect PvE? It's the only reliable heal for warden tanks and it is already pretty costly. Don't ask for freaking PvE nerfs because of PvP, we are getting really mad at that.

Also don't forget that Battle Spirit 5k health bonus is being removed next monday.

Was this in the notes that the 5k get removed?

Don't get me wrong, rly would love this.

Olupajmibanan

actosh wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

How will cost increase on Arctic Blast not affect PvE? It's the only reliable heal for warden tanks and it is already pretty costly. Don't ask for freaking PvE nerfs because of PvP, we are getting really mad at that.

Also don't forget that Battle Spirit 5k health bonus is being removed next monday.

Was this in the notes that the 5k get removed?

Don't get me wrong, rly would love this.

Class reps announced this on discord and specifically emphasized that Zenimax told them to do so.

Dracane

Yes to everything except Malacath nerfs. It's only strong because of proc sets and because crit is too hard to build for in pvp.
In pve, it is no serious alternative even with crit chances being reduced. Say again you do not want to touch pve with these changes. Reducing it, makes it useless.

HiImRex

Dracane wrote: »

Yes to everything except Malacath nerfs. It's only strong because of proc sets and because crit is too hard to build for in pvp.
In pve, it is no serious alternative even with crit chances being reduced. Say again you do not want to touch pve with these changes. Reducing it, makes it useless.

Nerfing malacath won't affect PVE for exactly the reason you just stated. It will not impact the PVE meta at all, because malacath doesn't exist in the pve meta. It's so far from meta that it probably won't even impact the 2% fringe off-meta PVErs.

Narvuntien wrote: »

Groups spamming procs is little different to groups spamming abilities on you both will kill you.

Malacath 100% needs a nerf.

There's a huge difference between dying to ability spam and dying to proc spam.

The difference is this, DOT procs apply once and continues to tick with very limited mitigation options. Proc conditions are tied to things you would do naturally anyway and require very little setup or forethought. Failing to apply a proc, especially of the DoT variety (many burst procs can be dodged/blocked and have a fairly long CD) has almost no consequence to the proc user.

Abilities cost resources and can be blocked and/or dodged (usually both) to be mitigated, as well as taking up a global CD. Good use of defense can gas out your opponents who are trying to spam abilities on you. Procs break this basic game mechanic.

How it's supposed to work is 3 people light attack / spammable you together. You dodge roll, and you trade the cost of 1 dodgeroll for the cost of 3 spammables from the enemy. This is a winning trade and you are rewarded for making the right decision.

How it works today with procs is, 3 people light attack spam you with syvarra's scale. You absolutely must respond by investing resources or you will be melted. Enemy invests close to nothing and they will continually force you to respond by spamming light attack. This is a losing trade, even if you respond perfectly and the enemy does nothing but spam light attacks.

dcmgti wrote: »

Code mist to turn off any procs/beams and cost reduction glyphs can't affect it sure. Most people who use it purely as a kite/LOS tool will still use it.

As I said before, mistform will be absolutely useless if you can't reduce its cost to 300-400 per second, and if you make mistform useless, then the entire vampire skill-line becomes dead in PVP (from what I understand it's already dead in PVE aside from super top % vet trial DD setups).

Baseline mistform is one of the worst abilities in the game, tied to one of the worst set of passives in the game for PvP (Vampire passives). It costs too much and does too little. Everything it potentially offers you can be done better with more build diversity and options by choosing to build around block mitigation and RaT. "But how can this be? OLD mistform with 4k cost and 4 sec channel was good!" Yes in a meta that was so utterly different from today that it might as well have been a different game.

If you use mistform right now in PvP without reduced cost AND some hp regen, you're intentionally choosing to build ineffeciently for flavor or because you don't really understand how to build efficiently. (There's a small niche exception for PvP healers, but mistform is not BiS for pvp healers either). Everyone is welcome to build and play how they like, but balancing a game around inefficient build choices is not the way.

StaticWave

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

How will cost increase on Arctic Blast not affect PvE? It's the only reliable heal for warden tanks and it is already pretty costly. Don't ask for freaking PvE nerfs because of PvP, we are getting really mad at that.

Also don't forget that Battle Spirit 5k health bonus is being removed next monday.

Was this in the notes that the 5k get removed?

Don't get me wrong, rly would love this.

Class reps announced this on discord and specifically emphasized that Zenimax told them to do so.

Class reps? That program died 2 years ago and was a joke. Until ZOS publicly announces this info, why should we believe you?

Olupajmibanan

StaticWave wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

How will cost increase on Arctic Blast not affect PvE? It's the only reliable heal for warden tanks and it is already pretty costly. Don't ask for freaking PvE nerfs because of PvP, we are getting really mad at that.

Also don't forget that Battle Spirit 5k health bonus is being removed next monday.

Was this in the notes that the 5k get removed?

Don't get me wrong, rly would love this.

Class reps announced this on discord and specifically emphasized that Zenimax told them to do so.

Class reps? That program died 2 years ago and was a joke. Until ZOS publicly announces this info, why should we believe you?

Well, nothing stops you from looking at the class reps discord yourself. But to not say that I am lazy, I found this from an earlier discussion regarding 5K battle spirit bonus.

CyberOnEso wrote: »

frankwchenzo wrote: »

nah, just time to remove the extra 5k health from battle spirit.

I believe this is happening. From a class rep:

Qbiken

Best solution I've seen/read to the mistform problem is to have the damage mitigation it provides scale with your vampire stage.

Stage 1: 15% damage mitigation
Stage 2: 30% damage mitigation
Stage 3: 50% damage mitigation
Stage 4: 75% damage mitigation

This also adress the problem of players who sit at stage 1 with high HP recovery builds since they'll sit at 15% damage mitigation instead of the current 75%, which makes them alot more killable. And if they decide to go stage 3-4 for the extra mitigation, their HP recovery will be reduced to almost nothing. And stage 3-4 comes with it's own drawbacks if anything...

Touching the cost or disable X or Y while in mistform will just kill the skill completely, but having the damage mitigation scale with your stage solves many issues while keeping the usefulness of the skill intact.

Jaxaxo

Qbiken wrote: »

Best solution I've seen/read to the mistform problem is to have the damage mitigation it provides scale with your vampire stage.

Stage 1: 15% damage mitigation
Stage 2: 30% damage mitigation
Stage 3: 50% damage mitigation
Stage 4: 75% damage mitigation

This also adress the problem of players who sit at stage 1 with high HP recovery builds since they'll sit at 15% damage mitigation instead of the current 75%, which makes them alot more killable. And if they decide to go stage 3-4 for the extra mitigation, their HP recovery will be reduced to almost nothing. And stage 3-4 comes with it's own drawbacks if anything...

Touching the cost or disable X or Y while in mistform will just kill the skill completely, but having the damage mitigation scale with your stage solves many issues while keeping the usefulness of the skill intact.

Really like this idea. Current hp rec/mist form builds with procs are just so brainless...

Dracane

Health from battle spirit really gets removed? A delight most unexpected.

DonGodJoe

The impen nerf idea of yours again just hurts light armor players more

milllaurie

Actually you touched and interesting topic here. Proc set stacking. I have no idea what that would do balance-wise but sure as heck that would make sense if you look at any other ESO mechanics.
We all know major buffs/debuffs don't stack. They do with minor versions but you can not double major breach someone.
You can also not get double clever alchemist proc even if you equip the set twice. It also does not stack if you use proc sets outside minor/major such as Powerful assault. Two people running it WILL NOT increase the overall damage.
It would only make sense if named buffs/debuffs/procs would not stack.
It would NOT solve the underlying problem though. Proc sets started to act like the main source of damage instead of addition to damage. Compare the hunter's venom with viper - two sets from different eras of the game. And absolutely different power. Funny how they both meet "ThE nEw ZoS pOwEr StAnDaRdS".
Also if proc stacking would be disabled noone forbids one person to run unleashed+maelstrom, another pillar of nirn+venomous smite, you get the idea. Proc stacking can still be a thing even when the same procs cannot stack.
But it sure would make sense and zos balance standarda team should take a look at it.

dcmgti

Another very nice change would be for arena weapons to affect proc sets like Unleashed Terror. Unleashed Terror + vMA 2h + Malacath is absolute cancer, all from someone with 40-45k hp and all heavy. And that's just one example. I would love to see changes like that

Qbiken wrote: »

Best solution I've seen/read to the mistform problem is to have the damage mitigation it provides scale with your vampire stage.

Stage 1: 15% damage mitigation
Stage 2: 30% damage mitigation
Stage 3: 50% damage mitigation
Stage 4: 75% damage mitigation

This also adress the problem of players who sit at stage 1 with high HP recovery builds since they'll sit at 15% damage mitigation instead of the current 75%, which makes them alot more killable. And if they decide to go stage 3-4 for the extra mitigation, their HP recovery will be reduced to almost nothing. And stage 3-4 comes with it's own drawbacks if anything...

Touching the cost or disable X or Y while in mistform will just kill the skill completely, but having the damage mitigation scale with your stage solves many issues while keeping the usefulness of the skill intact.

That will kill the skill and most of vamp. They could make procs turn off and cancel recoveries while in mist. The people that don't cheese it and simply use it for a tool to kite/LOS will continue to do so. 15% damage reduction is worth running vamp at all for the majority of players. Things like this will only continue to push players into stacking health in heavy armor even more. As I've said before, people are asking for a nerf to something that a minority of people troll with and cheese it. Which in the end hurts the majority that don't troll with it.

wheem_ESO

HiImRex wrote: »

(4) Only 1 named proc set DoT can be applied to a player at a time

Multiple instances of the same proc set Damage-Over-Time effects should not stack infinitely. Currently, if a 4 man group of players are all running Unleashed Terror (https://eso-sets.com/set/unleashed-terror) and vMA 2h (https://eso-sets.com/set/perfected-merciless-charge), then they can apply 4 separate Unleashed Terror dots and 4 separate vMA dots which all stack to do insane damage.

Not only is this frustrating to play against, it kills group comp diversity because everyone in a pvp group (for instance, a BG team) will just stack the "best" proc sets.

Every player should only be affected by 1 named proc DoT effect at most. No more connecting 4 Vateshran Ele beams on 1 person, no more stacking 4 unleashed terrors on 1 person. This will also force larger groups to diversify their proc sets if they want to maximize their numbers advantage over smaller groups of opponents.

While I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment, I can't support this change. I (Bastiat/Talorcan) have 3 different offensive builds that I switch between in Battlegrounds, and two of them would be crippled to the point of being unusable if this were to go live. My Winterborn/Torug's Pact setup would still work, though the back bar BRP or Vateshran Destruction Staff might be rendered useless outside of 1v1 situations. Magicka Necromancer is pretty limited on viable offensive sets right now, and this would completely destroy most of them.

I have one build that's basically the same thing that @Urvoth typically uses; Oblivion's Foe, Syvarra's Scales, and BRP Destruction Staff (at least I think he's using BRP?) If we were to ever be on the same team, and I didn't carry around numerous extra gear sets to switch between (RIP inventory space), we might as well only have 3 players.

To make matters worse, we could be going up against opponents with multiple Stamina characters running burst builds with the Vateshran 2h, or Caluurion's gankers, etc...and nothing would change for them. Their effectiveness would stack just like it does now, with no downsides at all. And if they were trying to blow one of us up, the other wouldn't even be able to help counterpressure to try and take some of the heat off.

Then there's the situation that would arise if I were on Team#1 and Urvoth was on Team#2 - it would be a huge benefit for Team#3, since we would be repeatedly countering each other's offense, reducing their incoming damage. Being caught in a bad position would certainly be less punishing than it is now.

And what about entering games where I don't know the other players, or what build(s) they're using at any given time? Am I supposed to ask all 11 people what sets they're running, and hope that all of them both speak English and respond to me honestly?

Or I could just bypass all of these drastic limitations on my offensive potential by switching to Stam and running Eternal Vigor, Way of Fire, 7th Legion, Stuhn's, Unfathomable Darkness, Red Mountain, the Vateshran 2h, etc...And I think that's what would really happen if this change were to be implemented. Some coordinated small groups in Cyrodiil would still run DOT procs, but most everyone in BGs would switch to either burst procs, stat-based Stam builds, or stat-based Mag Sorc builds.

HiImRex wrote: »

(5) Transformation Ultis should not give you a full heal (necro goliath and vampire scion)
(I know Goliath is not technically a full heal, but it might as well be at 30k restored + 30k max HP)

Currently, using Goliath of Vamp Scion transformation completely resets the fight, WHILE giving the transforming player a huge power spike for 20 seconds.

This has given rise to a playstyle which the hardcore PvP community has lovingly dubbed "clownform". No one likes being robbed of kills you worked super hard to earn. It's not fair and it's not fun.

The fix is simple. Vamp Scion should only restore a flat 10,000 HP upon transformation. A vampire player is at 2000 HP and about to die. He hits Scion. Currently, this effectively gives the player an instant 40,000 HP heal. After the fix, the player should transform and have 12,000 HP.

Goliath should restore 15,000 HP upon transformation to help them better make use of the 30,000 max HP, but in exchange the cost of the ultimate should go up to 300 to match Vamp Scion.

The transformations should be powerful, but it should not be an insane full reset button. This way, a player is encouraged to transform more aggressively, while still being able to be punished for bad play.

I don't have too much of a problem with these ultimates resetting the fight, since some other classes can repeatedly reset fights without having to burn an expensive ult do so. If I were to suggest a nerf for the so-called "Clown Forms," I'd actually take a look at the amount of damage that can be achieved by them. It's a bit tougher for Magicka Necromancer to utilize it fully, since we don't have any gap closers, but if you ever are able to stay on top of someone well enough, the damage can get extremely high.

I'm going to break the Mist Form section up a bit, in order to more easily address individual points:

HiImRex wrote: »

The same is true for the following: disabling HP regen, turning off ALL magicka return while mistforming, or making it impossible to invest reduced spell cost glyphs into the ability. ALL 3 of these these changes will make mistform 100% unusable and again, if you're not sold, I will be happy to explain in DM or in a reply post.

I've been running Stage 3 Vampirism with extremely low HP regen lately, and it doesn't make Mist Form unusable. It can't be used to "troll" people, of course, but if used in relatively short bursts while popping out to heal/CC/counterpressure, it's by no means bad. The main problem is how expensive it is when not using cost reduction enchants, and how cheap it is when you stack them.

HiImRex wrote: »

The perfect mistform cost increase should apply this way:

(A) After channeling for 3 seconds, the cost of Mistform begins to increase every second (similar to how Blood for Blood HP cost increases every tick)

(B) The cost-increase should be a FLAT number, not a %, and DOUBLE every second you remain in Mistform (after the initial 3 seconds):

ASSUMING triple infused cost-reduction jewelry glyphs:

First tick: 400
Second tick: 400
Third tick: 400
Fourth tick: 400 + 150
Fifth tick: 400 + 300
Sixth tick: 400 + 600
Seventh tick: 400 + 1200
Eighth tick: 400 + 2400
Ninth tick: 400 + 4800
etc.

(C) The cost-increase should persist for 2 seconds after leaving Mistform. Recasting Mistform within that time refreshes the timer and continues to exponentially increase cost.

The problem with this is that you're assuming the usage of 3x infused jewelry with cost reduction enchants. What happens when/if the proc meta completely goes away, and the opportunity cost of running 3x reduce cost enchants skyrockets? That's a lot of spell damage, stats, movement speed, etc...to give up, and makes Race Against Time + ditching Vampirism all together that much more attractive.

That's why I have suggested changing the interaction between cost reduction enchants and Mist Form, while simultaneously lowering the baseline cost of the ability. It seems like everyone ignores just how expensive it can be when not running any cost reduction, especially on a class that doesn't have access to Magicka regeneration from within Mist Form.

I wouldn't be completely against the idea presented here, so long as the enchants and baseline ability cost were also tweaked. Using Vampirism and Mist Form shouldn't require specific traits and enchants on your jewelry just to be functional.

UntouchableHunter

Will be only one instance for Dzswing and Executioner also? And about Whirling Blades.

I have a suggestion:

Lets put a player limit.

Must be 50% magic classe and 50% stamina classe in Cyrodill.

Because I see in this forum a lot of stamina players crying about proc sets, mist form, malacath and everybody knows that the only viable magic class without this stuff is sorcerer.

Procs are strong, malacath is strong but they are not strong enough to make players go magnecro, magden o magdk.

The problem is not proc and malacath because proc and malacath don't make this classes strong enough to fight a stamina base status.

You guys care about only yours stamina classes with Dzswing and Executioner AND EVERYBODY IS RUNNING IT.

Before nerf procs and malacath ZOS must BUFF Magicka classes because this classes are horrible with procs and worst without them.

If you are a stamina player base status and lost 1v1 against a magnecro or magdk with crimson and malacath something is wrong with your play style it is impossible one good stamina player base status lost a fight for a magnecro or magdk with this set. IMPOSSIBLE.