oh my god

Renegader

zero achnowledgement or statements from zos in this weeks pts notes. this is my fear, that the cp rework will launch as is now on pts (with a few minor tweaks),

ZOS YOU CANT MAKE PLAYERS GRIND OVER 2700 CP TO BE MIN MAXED IN THIS GAME.

THIS GOES AGAINST THE WHOLE STATEMENT THAT YOU WANTED CP TO BE MORE BEGINNER FRIENDLY

Postpone this joke rework and make it properly before launching. why wasnt this announced ahead? why didnt you guys post it before pts? so you might have gotten some nice feedback BEFORE A DEADLINE OF 5 WEEKS?

This is frustrating to say the least. im holding my tounge for some big changes on week 3, or at least achnowledgement that its unbalanced and need to change. please please for the love of this game dont make it go live. at least not as it is now.

FineFeathered

on top of the fact I don't even get what the stars are for? The bar on top? There's literally no documentation anywhere. Is this one of those things where you just throw everything at the wall and see what sticks?

And yueah, all of a sudden my 990 cp looks very inadequate.

redspecter23

Any feedback changes happen starting in week 3. Week 2 is usually just a few bug fixes which is what we saw today. Wait until next week and see what they do there.

MashmalloMan

It's always fun watching the forums blow up week to week with the same statements every PTS cycle.

tsaescishoeshiner

The second week of patch notes almost never adresses big week 1 changes. Week 1 ends a day before week 2 patch notes come out. It takes a while to gather data, see how things are working, and discuss and implement new changes.

There's always a post like this the second week of PTS. Thank you for the entertainment 👍

ThorianB

No one is making you grind to 3600 CP and they already made it clear that the internal testing team cleared all current content without CP or at the current CP level( can't remember which) under the new system which means there is absolutely no reason to grind up to 3600 CP other than just to get there.

Personally, i like having a goal to work towards again. I was starting to get bored with a lack of progression.

bluebird

CP 2.0 really needs to go back to the drawing board, NOT to Live. Some of the changes are just bizarre.
Many of the alleged benefits of CP 2.0 are false. And it creates further problems that they didn't even think about.

The one good thing that came from it was the reduction of overall power from CP (shifting of raw stats into levelups instead of CP-levelups, and capping stars at max 10% bonus instead of 25%) which was a major contributor to power curve imbalance that divided the playerbase for years. Every other change though just made it all worse, lol.

bluebird

ThorianB wrote: »

No one is making you grind to 3600 CP and they already made it clear that the internal testing team cleared all current content without CP or at the current CP level( can't remember which) under the new system which means there is absolutely no reason to grind up to 3600 CP other than just to get there.

Personally, i like having a goal to work towards again. I was starting to get bored with a lack of progression.

You may not understand how this impacts an MMO. When you do group content, you don't grind CP 'just to get there', you do it to keep up with everyone else.

Vertical progression in the new system continues up to around 2900cp (that's when you max out 4 slottables and unlock all passive bonuses), horizontal progression only starts after that (when you can start unlocking other slottable perks to switch around). When you PvP or try to get into a trial group, the grinding needed to be on par with 3600cp players will be insanely more than the grind needed to catch up to 810cp players.

Also, there is a difference between adding new goals to work towards, and taking away current accomplishments to make us re-grind the same bonuses but with less benefit. We lose the majority of passive perks that were always active in CP 1.0, only to re-earn the same perks with more CP spend needed (since they are linearly locked now) which only affect us if we use up 1 of our 4 perk slots for them. The relative benefit for regrinding CP is also less, as spending 150cp on Live got you 3960 Pen, 18,75% crit and 18.75% DoT damage, the same number of CP spent on the PTS gets you 1750 Pen, 10% crit, 10% DoT damage.

So CP 2.0 just devalues your CP, inflates the number of CP you need to grind, and restricts where you can spend them and how many you can even benefit from.

Sahidom

The new system does have many merits that are user friendly. There are several nodes that become available for any new player accounts to immediately gain benefits upon earning CP. Just like the current system, you balance item sets, skill choices and allocating CP to optimize your needs. This doesn't change under CP 2.0. As those new accounts progressively earning CP will have more options that are user-new-player friendly to customize their character.

Foto1

Where is the video of the HM Sunspire passage by the developers?

ThorianB wrote: »

No one is making you grind to 3600 CP and they already made it clear that the internal testing team cleared all current content without CP or at the current CP level( can't remember which) under the new system which means there is absolutely no reason to grind up to 3600 CP other than just to get there.

Personally, i like having a goal to work towards again. I was starting to get bored with a lack of progression.

Where is the video of the HM Sunspire passage by the developers?

katorga

Better start grinding.

ThorianB

bluebird wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

No one is making you grind to 3600 CP and they already made it clear that the internal testing team cleared all current content without CP or at the current CP level( can't remember which) under the new system which means there is absolutely no reason to grind up to 3600 CP other than just to get there.

Personally, i like having a goal to work towards again. I was starting to get bored with a lack of progression.

You may not understand how this impacts an MMO. When you do group content, you don't grind CP 'just to get there', you do it to keep up with everyone else.

Vertical progression in the new system continues up to around 2900cp (that's when you max out 4 slottables and unlock all passive bonuses), horizontal progression only starts after that (when you can start unlocking other slottable perks to switch around). When you PvP or try to get into a trial group, the grinding needed to be on par with 3600cp players will be insanely more than the grind needed to catch up to 810cp players.

Also, there is a difference between adding new goals to work towards, and taking away current accomplishments to make us re-grind the same bonuses but with less benefit. We lose the majority of passive perks that were always active in CP 1.0, only to re-earn the same perks with more CP spend needed (since they are linearly locked now) which only affect us if we use up 1 of our 4 perk slots for them. The relative benefit for regrinding CP is also less, as spending 150cp on Live got you 3960 Pen, 18,75% crit and 18.75% DoT damage, the same number of CP spent on the PTS gets you 1750 Pen, 10% crit, 10% DoT damage.

So CP 2.0 just devalues your CP, inflates the number of CP you need to grind, and restricts where you can spend them and how many you can even benefit from.

This is not my first MMO. Most players that play this game, from my experience, don't care about keeping up with the Joneses. There is also no reason in this game to grind up to CP XXXX. It was already made clear that an internal team cleared all content without needing the CP. They also took a lot of the bonuses from gaining a CP level and just worked them in pre CP, from my understanding of what was said.

Honestly, the power creep needed a nerf it was getting ridiculous. People are hitting 100k DPS. 40k use to be elite end game not to long ago and we had a big pause in even having CP level increases. It should get knocked back down around 50-60k.
They explained why they did it. The "social pressure" put on players to reach ever increasing high numbers was actually doing harm to the community at large( we all know it was creating a toxic environment). So they wanted to level the playing field a bit.

In fact a lot of what is being done that end game players have an issue with are being done because of a toxic environment of exclusion created by end game players. The nerfs to DPS and companions are actually results of that toxicity, exclusions, and "your not good enough to play with us" mentality that has become more common in the end game community. Casual players kept complaining about that hostile environment and wanting to play by themselves and since they make up a majority of the gamers, the game is naturally going to morph to the way they want consume the content.

Another thing i dont think is being consider is that companions will be here 3 months after this goes live and they will want to balance current changes and companions.I think it will be fine personally. I didn't notice any huge changes myself on PTS. I was able to solo the same bosses that i do on live with the same amount of difficulty roughly. I have just over 900 CP btw.

I do dislike some of the changes, but ive never like all the changes of any patch in any game. Overall, i think the new system is a positive or at least a step in the right direction. At least something is being done now. For the last year, i felt like the game was getting really stagnant outside of the consumption of new zone content which doesn't take all that long to consume.

bluebird

ThorianB wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

No one is making you grind to 3600 CP and they already made it clear that the internal testing team cleared all current content without CP or at the current CP level( can't remember which) under the new system which means there is absolutely no reason to grind up to 3600 CP other than just to get there.

Personally, i like having a goal to work towards again. I was starting to get bored with a lack of progression.

You may not understand how this impacts an MMO. When you do group content, you don't grind CP 'just to get there', you do it to keep up with everyone else.

Vertical progression in the new system continues up to around 2900cp (that's when you max out 4 slottables and unlock all passive bonuses), horizontal progression only starts after that (when you can start unlocking other slottable perks to switch around). When you PvP or try to get into a trial group, the grinding needed to be on par with 3600cp players will be insanely more than the grind needed to catch up to 810cp players.

Also, there is a difference between adding new goals to work towards, and taking away current accomplishments to make us re-grind the same bonuses but with less benefit. We lose the majority of passive perks that were always active in CP 1.0, only to re-earn the same perks with more CP spend needed (since they are linearly locked now) which only affect us if we use up 1 of our 4 perk slots for them. The relative benefit for regrinding CP is also less, as spending 150cp on Live got you 3960 Pen, 18,75% crit and 18.75% DoT damage, the same number of CP spent on the PTS gets you 1750 Pen, 10% crit, 10% DoT damage.

So CP 2.0 just devalues your CP, inflates the number of CP you need to grind, and restricts where you can spend them and how many you can even benefit from.

It was already made clear that an internal team cleared all content without needing the CP. They also took a lot of the bonuses from gaining a CP level and just worked them in pre CP, from my understanding of what was said.
[...]
Honestly, the power creep needed a nerf it was getting ridiculous. People are hitting 100k DPS. 40k use to be elite end game not to long ago and we had a big pause in even having CP level increases. It should get knocked back down around 50-60k.[...]
In fact a lot of what is being done that end game players have an issue with are being done because of a toxic environment of exclusion created by end game players. The nerfs to DPS and companions are actually results of that toxicity, exclusions, and "your not good enough to play with us" mentality that has become more common in the end game community.

'You can do the content' and 'you can do the content as you did before' is a huge difference. Remember the naked dungeon stream with Gina Jess and Mike Finnigan? Yeah. They were doing the content. Naked. Slowly. They would get kicked from any group with that performance, yet they were 'doing the content'.

Just because content is technically complete-able doesn't mean that they didn't nerf the whole system into oblivion (that it won't take much longer to complete things, and that it won't take months of grinding to get to the same place you were the night before the patch). You can't claim that you can still do the same things you did before, while wanting a 50-60k nerf, lol. Otherwise we can all have fun with leaderboards, where the records the night before the new patch will stay the unbeatable records forever. The switching of raw stats from CP-levelups to player-levelups had nothing to do with the CP 2.0 revamp and could have easily been done within the current CP 1.0 system.

So the fact that you're aware of the 'trickle-down' effect of elite players should highlight why 3600cp is a terrible change. I'm not an elitist by any means, but people who think that min-maxing and BiS mentality only happens up top are delusional. Recently WoW is a good example (because it has more public records than ESO which likes to keep things hush hush), and you can see that the best-performing classes, Covenants and Soulbinds have a trickle-down effect throughout the whole game, and don't impact just the top tier. With cp 3600 players running around, will a cp 300 player have higher chances to get invited to a group than they had with cp 810 players? And it's usually the noobs that don't have nor ever will have max cp, so 3600 just creates an almost impossible-to-catch-up divide without hardcore grinding.

virtus753

ThorianB wrote: »

Honestly, the power creep needed a nerf it was getting ridiculous. People are hitting 100k DPS. 40k use to be elite end game not to long ago and we had a big pause in even having CP level increases.

40k was elite on a 6mil dummy. 100k parses are being done on the trial (iron atro) dummy. They are not at all equivalent, and there is no mathematical way of converting one to the other without knowing every detail of the parse (nor would it be worth it to create the tool to do that). For what it's worth, 40k is still pretty elite on a 6mil, with truly elite players being able to crack 50k.

Has dps increased over time? Yes. Has it increased by a factor of 2.5 in recent memory, as these numbers suggest? Not at all.

ThorianB

bluebird wrote: »

'You can do the content' and 'you can do the content as you did before' is a huge difference. Remember the naked dungeon stream with Gina Jess and Mike Finnigan? Yeah. They were doing the content. Naked. Slowly. They would get kicked from any group with that performance, yet they were 'doing the content'.

Bolded the important parts here. As mentioned in my previous post, they said( Matt or Rich) they wanted to level the playing field a bit more because people were complaining about ever increasing social pressure to reach higher and higher numbers. Knocking the meta players down to a lower level is one way to accomplish that. No longer can a meta player say " You must be able to hit 70k DPS!" When they cant even hit 70k themselves. I am also not against end game players no longer being able to use DPS and a way to cheese themselves out of having to deal with mechanics. I have always been against cheesing my way out of mechanics as that is what adds flavor to boss fights rather than just a super HP mob that hits hard.

I first experienced this in ESO running normal Darkshade Caverns II for the first time when i was i was expected to just heal everyone through the end boss damage instead of us just doing the actual mechanics. I understand that would have been a little more work for everyone else than just DPSing it down but it is A LOT more work for me to keep them all alive while they do. So it didn't make it better it just offloaded all their work on to me. I have been against the use of high DPS to avoid mechanics ever since.

[Just because content is technically complete-able doesn't mean that they didn't nerf the whole system into oblivion (that it won't take much longer to complete things, and that it won't take months of grinding to get to the same place you were the night before the patch). You can't claim that you can still do the same things you did before, while wanting a 50-60k nerf, lol. Otherwise we can all have fun with leaderboards, where the records the night before the new patch will stay the unbeatable records forever. The switching of raw stats from CP-levelups to player-levelups had nothing to do with the CP 2.0 revamp and could have easily been done within the current CP 1.0 system.

I dont disagree that its a nerf, but that is the point to nerf as i mentioned above. Close that gap between casual players and elite players. I also find "getting back to where we was before" and "beating leaderboard" records to be irrelevant. Making the game enjoyable and playable for everyone is important. Leaderboard scores are just like a moving achievement. They are not important to the overall health of gameplay. Especially considering most of the player base doesn't even know the game has a leaderboard in the first place.

With cp 3600 players running around, will a cp 300 player have higher chances to get invited to a group than they had with cp 810 players? And it's usually the noobs that don't have nor ever will have max cp, so 3600 just creates an almost impossible-to-catch-up divide without hardcore grinding.

Don't know. Neither of us can predict what will happen under the new system. I do know that the end game players might want to start playing nice because as they keep excluding casuals from content, casuals are going to pressure the devs to create ways for the casuals to completely exclude the end gamers from their play and then its going to be the end gamers who feel excluded all the time.

I do not see this change as the crisis you do. You obviously put more emphasis on end game competitive play than i do. So all you see is that it is resetting your level so to speak and you have put in more work now to hit the level you already were at before. I see it as the beginning of righting a wrong. We have two totally different perspectives on it.

bluebird

ThorianB wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

'You can do the content' and 'you can do the content as you did before' is a huge difference. Remember the naked dungeon stream with Gina Jess and Mike Finnigan? Yeah. They were doing the content. Naked. Slowly. They would get kicked from any group with that performance, yet they were 'doing the content'.

Bolded the important parts here. As mentioned in my previous post, they said( Matt or Rich) they wanted to level the playing field a bit more because people were complaining about ever increasing social pressure to reach higher and higher numbers. Knocking the meta players down to a lower level is one way to accomplish that. No longer can a meta player say " You must be able to hit 70k DPS!" When they cant even hit 70k themselves. I am also not against end game players no longer being able to use DPS and a way to cheese themselves out of having to deal with mechanics. I have always been against cheesing my way out of mechanics as that is what adds flavor to boss fights rather than just a super HP mob that hits hard.

I first experienced this in ESO running normal Darkshade Caverns II for the first time when i was i was expected to just heal everyone through the end boss damage instead of us just doing the actual mechanics. I understand that would have been a little more work for everyone else than just DPSing it down but it is A LOT more work for me to keep them all alive while they do. So it didn't make it better it just offloaded all their work on to me. I have been against the use of high DPS to avoid mechanics ever since.

[Just because content is technically complete-able doesn't mean that they didn't nerf the whole system into oblivion (that it won't take much longer to complete things, and that it won't take months of grinding to get to the same place you were the night before the patch). You can't claim that you can still do the same things you did before, while wanting a 50-60k nerf, lol. Otherwise we can all have fun with leaderboards, where the records the night before the new patch will stay the unbeatable records forever. The switching of raw stats from CP-levelups to player-levelups had nothing to do with the CP 2.0 revamp and could have easily been done within the current CP 1.0 system.

I dont disagree that its a nerf, but that is the point to nerf as i mentioned above. Close that gap between casual players and elite players. I also find "getting back to where we was before" and "beating leaderboard" records to be irrelevant. Making the game enjoyable and playable for everyone is important. Leaderboard scores are just like a moving achievement. They are not important to the overall health of gameplay. Especially considering most of the player base doesn't even know the game has a leaderboard in the first place.

With cp 3600 players running around, will a cp 300 player have higher chances to get invited to a group than they had with cp 810 players? And it's usually the noobs that don't have nor ever will have max cp, so 3600 just creates an almost impossible-to-catch-up divide without hardcore grinding.

Don't know. Neither of us can predict what will happen under the new system. I do know that the end game players might want to start playing nice because as they keep excluding casuals from content, casuals are going to pressure the devs to create ways for the casuals to completely exclude the end gamers from their play and then its going to be the end gamers who feel excluded all the time.

I do not see this change as the crisis you do. You obviously put more emphasis on end game competitive play than i do. So all you see is that it is resetting your level so to speak and you have put in more work now to hit the level you already were at before. I see it as the beginning of righting a wrong. We have two totally different perspectives on it.

You missed the important bits. Like the fact that everything you're talking about (nerf dps, reduce difference between 0 cp and max CP players) has NOTHING to do with the CP 2.0 revamp. Literally nothing.

They could have adjusted values without changing the CP system entirely. Keep the same CP 810 system, but reduce maximum stats from 25% bonuses to max 10% bonuses. Keep CP at 810 maximum and shift raw stats from CP-levelups to player-levelups at 50. All of that reduces the power gap, and flattens the curve to get there. None of which needs the CP 2.0 system, which funnily enough took away diminishing returns so instead of large bonuses being earned earlier on, now bonuses are linear all the way. And while CP 1.0 stopped giving bonuses at 810, CP 2.0 will spread the same bonuses over 2900CP.

Even ignoring performance (as you don't seem to care about it), with the new system people will have to micromanage a 4-slot bar for all eternity, every time they talk to a merchant, or want to harvest/craft, or want to steal and pickpocket. Every time. Because the bonuses we had are being taken away, only to have to regrind them with much more CP requirement and have to manually enable bonuses 4 at one time. Your opinions about dps aside, the new system is objectively worse in every aspect, and the benefits are things that happened alongside it (so they could be implemented without it just as easily) not because of it.

Ekzorka

IntenseRenegader wrote: »

ZOS YOU CANT MAKE PLAYERS GRIND OVER 2700 CP TO BE MIN MAXED IN THIS GAME.

THIS GOES AGAINST THE WHOLE STATEMENT THAT YOU WANTED CP TO BE MORE BEGINNER FRIENDLY

Beginner friendly? I'm almost 4 years in this game and only 1338 CP...

Nairinhe

IntenseRenegader wrote: »

ZOS YOU CANT MAKE PLAYERS GRIND OVER 2700 CP TO BE MIN MAXED IN THIS GAME.

THIS GOES AGAINST THE WHOLE STATEMENT THAT YOU WANTED CP TO BE MORE BEGINNER FRIENDLY

This is ridiculous. Minmaxing is NOT beginner's business. If you want to complain, at least get some reasonable arguments.

Edit: also, stop panicking like it went live yesterday. Only half a week passed.

ThorianB

bluebird wrote: »

You missed the important bits. Like the fact that everything you're talking about (nerf dps, reduce difference between 0 cp and max CP players) has NOTHING to do with the CP 2.0 revamp. Literally nothing.

I am going to say this for a third time because you keep missing it. From Matt's ( or Rich's) mouth to my ears via twitch , they( the devs) wanted to close the gap between casual players and elite players. This is one way they are doing it by knocking back the power creep that has been occurring in the game. Another way they are addressing this issue is through the companion system. It is not the only purpose of these systems but it is one of issues they had in mind when developing them.

They could have adjusted values without changing the CP system entirely. Keep the same CP 810 system,

People hated the old CP system and it wasn't a good system from any point of view. It did what they needed it to do with the tech they had at the time. But everyone wanted a new system. Most people were/are against anything you could call a CP 2.0 as people didn't enjoy the first version generally speaking.

Even ignoring performance (as you don't seem to care about it),

You might want watch some of the videos from the dev team. The old CP system required 30-40 checks every time you performed all but basic movement actions. The new system requires 12 checks. That reduces server load from these checks to a third of what they are now. That will greatly improve performance. I am not ignoring performance, it just isn't relevant because the new CP system improves performance.

the new system people will have to micromanage a 4-slot bar for all eternity, every time they talk to a merchant, or want to harvest/craft, or want to steal and pickpocket.

Ive played with the new system on PTS you know. That isn't true at all. Only a min/maxer who is obsessed with having max bonuses all the time for every action would constantly need to micromanage their bars. A majority of players will fit their bar for what they generally plan on doing. I wouldn't be against having some preloaded bar swaps though. Maybe a future add to the system.

Because the bonuses we had are being taken away, only to have to regrind them with much more CP requirement and have to manually enable bonuses 4 at one time.

Nah, you don't. All current content can be completed as you are now. No need to grind a bunch of CP in order to complete the same content.

the new system is objectively worse in every aspect,

I disagree. The new system:

• Knocks back power creep
• Improves performance by reducing server load
• Gets rid of a lot of "stars" in the old tree that were not used,rarely used, etc.
• New stars are better at providing diversity and in general the new stars are more useful
• The entire layout is better than the old tree and makes a lot more sense than the old tree did.
• The new tree is easily( their words not mine) expandable, so they can add more stuff to it later.

I see a lot of positives.

bluebird

ThorianB wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

You missed the important bits. Like the fact that everything you're talking about (nerf dps, reduce difference between 0 cp and max CP players) has NOTHING to do with the CP 2.0 revamp. Literally nothing.

I am going to say this for a third time because you keep missing it. From Matt's ( or Rich's) mouth to my ears via twitch , they( the devs) wanted to close the gap between casual players and elite players. This is one way they are doing it by knocking back the power creep that has been occurring in the game. Another way they are addressing this issue is through the companion system. It is not the only purpose of these systems but it is one of issues they had in mind when developing them.

Lol Unbelievable. I'm going to repeat it for the third time then because you keep missing it.

That has nothing to do with CP 2.0. Closing the gap between casuals is about 2 things: shift raw stat gain from CP-levelups to player-levelups, and reduce the stats that CP gives you. Neither of those things has anything to do with CP 2.0. Inflating CP to 3600, switching around the usefulness of blue/green/red points, adding linear locks, taking away QoL passives people had, is a SEPARATE change, and not necessary for the balancing change.

If I give you 10 bucks every time I slap you, you can't go around telling people that getting slapped is a great thing.The benefits you're (and they're) talking about is a balancing change of adjusting stats happened ALONGSIDE the other changes but does not require a CP 2.0 revamp, and so it's not a result or a benefit of that revamp.

You might want watch some of the videos from the dev team. The old CP system required 30-40 checks every time you performed all but basic movement actions.

'You might want to' read what I wrote, because obviously we were talking about combat performance and the effect CP has on players, not game performance.

That isn't true at all. Only a min/maxer who is obsessed with having max bonuses all the time for every action would constantly need to micromanage their bars. A majority of players will fit their bar for what they generally plan on doing. I wouldn't be against having some preloaded bar swaps though.

Every evidence points to you being wrong. What exactly do you base the assumption on that 'regular' players won't need to switch their slotted perks? Do you think 'regular' players don't use merchants? They don't Pickpocket? They don't loot Treasure Chests and don't craft? Because in the current system we had these passives always enabled; but the new system takes those away so we can only have 4 at a time. The green tree in particular shows how ridiculous this is - taking away progress we already had, to make us re-earn the same progress but never really enabled. What you call min-maxing is actually pretty common amongst gamers. It's called 'not wanting to be gimped'.

Also, fyi, if min-maxing is something that high-end players do, it will be yet another thing that widens the gap between noobs and good players.If you think the majority of ESO players will keep their crafting bonus and defensive perks slotted in their green and blue champion bar, instead of switching to the movement speed and damage buff perks, then they will be far more stigmatized in group content than now (because now, crafting and other combat-useless perks were passives unlocked at NO CP, and CP itself was spent into a mix of dps, sustain and defense slots due to the even distribution of the colours).

Nah, you don't. All current content can be completed as you are now. No need to grind a bunch of CP in order to complete the same content.

Again, proof needed please. CP 2.0 didnt even apply its bonuses properly last PTS patch (very reassuring about a system they are planning to release in weeks), so what do you base these claims on exactly? The devs telling you that they could still complete the same content doesn't mean you can complete the same content in the same time with the same ease. Adding 10 minutes extra to every trial and dungeon run for example is not the same.

We will see once the system actually works whether the numbers add up properly and how that compares in regards to combat (and once we have data from 3600 cp maxed templates to compare to 0 cp and 810cp). In regards to non-combat however, we can obviously see that more is lost than gained. Nobody who took a look at the green tree can claim otherewise.

I disagree. The new system:

• Knocks back power creep
• Improves performance by reducing server load
• Gets rid of a lot of "stars" in the old tree that were not used,rarely used, etc.
• New stars are better at providing diversity and in general the new stars are more useful
• The entire layout is better than the old tree and makes a lot more sense than the old tree did.
• The new tree is easily( their words not mine) expandable, so they can add more stuff to it later.

I see a lot of positives.

Most of those are wrong. So not much to see there. Here, I'll point them out the arguments and assumptions:

• Knocks back power creep - This is due to stat balancing, doesn't need a new CP system.
• Improves performance by reducing server load
• Gets rid of a lot of "stars" in the old tree that were not used,rarely used, etc. Adds even more stars that will never be used, since there is a 4-slot limit on them now, and because the linear requirements force some stars to be taken to get to other stars, even if people don't want those stars and can't even benefit from them because they'd have to be slotted.
• New stars are better at providing diversity and in general the new stars are more useful The stars are less useful because they give less for the same points. Linear requirements enforce people on the same cookie-cutter paths rather than encouraging diversity.
• The entire layout is better than the old tree and makes a lot more sense than the old tree did. You have subconstellations within 3 constellations now, rather than separate thematic constellations - so certainly not more sensible. Why are dps, healing and defensive stars all in blue - but some dps stars and some defensive stars are sunken into subconstellations. But other dps and defensive stars aren't. Why specifically those? How does that make sense? It doesn't.
• The new tree is easily( their words not mine) expandable, so they can add more stuff to it later. The current CP system could be expanded by adding new stars into the constellations, alongside the individual free stars we already have. The new CP system will have to create a subconstellation UI within a constellation, and fit new perks into linear and point requirements. Easier? Yeah, no.

You seemed to focus a lot on 'in their words' and 'devs have said' and 'listen to the devs'. If you actually took a step back and evaluated whether the new system benefits those things, you'd see that their reasoning is wrong.

They introduced linear gating path requirements when CP 1.0 didn't have them - how on earth would that introduce more choice for example? And how would a system that needs sub-constellations and linear connections and requirements be easier expandable than a system that simply can add individual stars that people can just take any time without any elaborate line-shape?

Integral1900

From what I have seen so far playing in the way I enjoy is probably not going to be practical anymore anywhere short of about 2700 points. 🧐

If that is the case on live then I will just do easier content and be done with it, I refuse to grind another 1900 levels. That’s not a game, that’s a job.🤔

We are going to get the same three role bottleneck we have now only with a lot more stats doing a lot less damage, this system does little for those of us throughly bored of the current tank, dps, healer yawn fest. 😴

Also I have to agree that the stars that need to be slotted and are dedicated to fencing stolen items are for the most part useless. Unless you’re going on a thieving rampage then at most you’re going to be fencing a few hundred gold and quite frankly dumping that many champion points serves no purpose whatsoever. Unless they are managing it with an add-on who in their right mind is going to want to swap the stars in the champion bar simply to squeeze another 30 gold 😆

Also, why in the name of sanity is there an option to dump 100 points into getting better results from wood but none of the other materials! In the name of sanity, who has so many champion points spare that they want to get slightly more resins out of wood! 🤨

Merlin13KAGL

The 'required' number keeps going up.

You don't have to have all the points to max your character. You have four slotable passive options only at any given time. You will still have the option to respec CP's @ 3k a pop to achieve other results.

The CP's beyond that are for the convenience of no longer have to respec via gold only.

It does not take 2k to get the typical passives, slotable and otherwise.

bluebird

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

The 'required' number keeps going up.

You don't have to have all the points to max your character. You have four slotable passive options only at any given time. You will still have the option to respec CP's @ 3k a pop to achieve other results.

270 red points (810 cp)
- 1400 Max HP (slotted)
- 15% longer CC-immunity (slotted)
- 10% dmg reduction while immune to CC (slotted)
- 1 free Break Free every 21 seconds (slotted)
480 Stam reduction for Roll Dodge
110 Stam reduction of Break Free

790 red points (2370 cp) includes all of the above PLUS passive:
+ 400 Stam reduction of Break Free (40)
+ 25% reduction of Elemental effects on you (50)
+ 1400 HP (50)
+ 3 meter Stealth detection (30)
+ 10% faster Sprint (50)
+ 100 Stam reduction of Sprint (50)
+ 100 Stam reduction of Block (50)
+ 600 bonus damage to Bash (100)
+ 20% more damage Blocked (100)

In the blue tree, they can continue gaining power-relevant no-slot-requiring bonuses such as 15% increase to healing and 5% dmg taken reduction, increased penetration etc. all the way up to 2900 cp-ish on top of the flat damage buffs that 810cp players will have. And that's not even counting the fact that higher-cp players will have all useful slottable perks maxed out and ready to go, so they can switch from their AoE setup to their ST setup on the fly, without any restriction like CP respec costs. This will only make good players more BiS and noobs less good (CP 1.0. required them to pick perks once; CP 2.0 would require them to pick perks, and keep changing them appropriately).

So yeah. Sure nothing is technically 'required' - people aren't required to play, you aren't required to win, casuals aren't required to not get kicked in group content - but there are several relevant, competitive passives way beyond cp810 or cp1200 or whatever. If they wanted a system where choice matters, they should have taken an example from WoW's and other games' 'choose 1 per row' exlcusive system, and made it so that almost all perks required slotting and a commitment. (e.g. Conduits and Soulbinds).

virtus753

Integral1900 wrote: »

Also, why in the name of sanity is there an option to dump 100 points into getting better results from wood but none of the other materials! In the name of sanity, who has so many champion points spare that they want to get slightly more resins out of wood! 🤨

Yesterday’s patch updated that node to include the other non-consumable crafts. The better question is: “why would anyone pay 100 CP to prevent themselves from getting any tempers in the other crafts besides woodworking?” Because that seems to be the only thing it’s accomplishing on the PTS right now.

ThorianB

bluebird wrote: »

That has nothing to do with CP 2.0. Closing the gap between casuals is about 2 things: shift raw stat gain from CP-levelups to player-levelups, and reduce the stats that CP gives you. Neither of those things has anything to do with CP 2.0. Inflating CP to 3600, switching around the usefulness of blue/green/red points, adding linear locks, taking away QoL passives people had, is a SEPARATE change, and not necessary for the balancing change.

Two birds, one stone. But i disagree with this anyway. A lot of the power creep is a result of the old champion system.

You might want to' read what I wrote, because obviously we were talking about combat performance and the effect CP has on players, not game performance.

I addressed that as well, twice. It is still possible to do all content with the same amount of CP. The power creep issue has been, hopefully, fixed.

Every evidence points to you being wrong. What exactly do you base the assumption on that 'regular' players won't need to switch their slotted perks? Do you think 'regular' players don't use merchants? They don't Pickpocket? They don't loot Treasure Chests and don't craft?

I don't find this to be near as big of an issue as you do. I wouldn't switch to my treasure perk every time i did a chest for example, only if i knew opening chests was going to be something i did often.

What you call min-maxing is actually pretty common amongst gamers. It's called 'not wanting to be gimped'.

I didn't call it min-maxing, i was talking about min-maxers. It also doesn't gimp you. It is called a perk for a reason.

Again, proof needed please. CP 2.0 didnt even apply its bonuses properly last PTS patch (very reassuring about a system they are planning to release in weeks), so what do you base these claims on exactly?

There is a reason why it is called a TEST server. It's not so you can test out changes for your builds. It so you can help find bugs and issues. The devs said, as i have said twice now, that an internal team could do all content without the new tree. I don't remember if they did a no CP run or if it was with current CP, but i know extra CP wasnt needed. If you want proof head over to twitch and watch the videos. Im not going to hunt it up for you. Its buried in hours of them talking about various things. It seems to me your complaint about this is not that you are afraid its not doable but you are afraid the game might be a little harder. I find that odd considering vet/elite players constantly are on every forum related to ESO complaining about it being to easy and not having enough challenging content.

I also said i was able to do the same content, solo, that i can do solo on live. I haven't tried everything yet. But i did a few world bosses that i have been farming recently on live and i ran FG1 and BC1 to see if i could still do those without to much effort. I didn't find any content to be noticeably harder to solo, so i dont consider the impact to be near as drastic as you do.

In regards to non-combat however, we can obviously see that more is lost than gained. Nobody who took a look at the green tree can claim otherewise.

I disagree. More was gained because there are far more options for any specific task. I just have to slot them now. So i get more bonuses for a task but i have to slot them instead of getting them added for spending X points. More benefit for more work. It is a tradeoff.

Knocks back power creep - This is due to stat balancing, doesn't need a new CP system.

I disagree there are stars in the current tree that i can continuously pump points into to do more damage. That is power creep.

Adds even more stars that will never be used, since there is a 4-slot limit on them now, and because the linear requirements force some stars to be taken to get to other stars,

Those stars provide options to tailor the character for how you want to play it. Except instead of needing to do a remap of your points every time you want to change something for something you could just change a few stars out of the slots. Also gives even less reason to get to 3600CP and why there isnt going to be the huge difference between 0,810,3600 CP you think their is at end game. The new system is about making good choices, the old system was about just grind to max and wait for cap to be raised.

The stars are less useful because they give less for the same points.

if you nit pick it you could argue that but overall the stars are more useful. There are far more useful stars in these trees than the one on live.

You have subconstellations within 3 constellations now, rather than separate thematic constellations

So a constellation all based around a single theme is NOT more sensible to you? I don't even know what to say to that.

The current CP system could be expanded by adding new stars into the constellations, alongside the individual free stars we already have.

From the impressions i got from the devs, the old CP system was not expandable at least not easily. And expanding it would have meant adding more checks.

You seemed to focus a lot on 'in their words' and 'devs have said' and 'listen to the devs'.

Well generally when i am evaluating something, i do it based off the information i get. It isn't a blind taste test we are doing. Why is this system better than the other one? It is not always obvious by looking at it because as players we don't have access to that info. I, think the system is better. It is not how i would have solved those problems but it is an improvement nonetheless.

I think the system is better based on what they have said and on my experience with it on PTS. I also agree with the general direction they want to take leveling from here out where there are more choices and less everyone picks the same few things( metaplay). You might not like the changes and that is fine. Not everyone will. Some people hate change period regardless of if it is good or bad. So far, from what i can tell, a majority of players are supportive of these changes.

FinrodMacBeorn

ThorianB wrote: »

You seemed to focus a lot on 'in their words' and 'devs have said' and 'listen to the devs'.

Well generally when i am evaluating something, i do it based off the information i get. It isn't a blind taste test we are doing. Why is this system better than the other one? It is not always obvious by looking at it because as players we don't have access to that info. I, think the system is better. It is not how i would have solved those problems but it is an improvement nonetheless.

I think the system is better based on what they have said and on my experience with it on PTS.

As dummies are bugged and - as they are not striking back - only of limited value anyhow, there are only few statements about real pve tests.

One healer stated that (with about 1200 cp) healing was ok in vCR, but he was so squishy that he even died from a glance of a lowly add - knowing vCR, that looks like a severe nerf which would hinder people to clear that content who now can do it without too much trouble. On the other hand, another person with about 1400 cp stated that, for him, vMSA was similar on pts and on life.

Therefore, could you please elaborate which content you have tested on PTS? I would really be interested in getting some first hand experience as I'll only jump onto pts once the EU copies are active.

ThorianB

FinrodMacBeorn wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

You seemed to focus a lot on 'in their words' and 'devs have said' and 'listen to the devs'.

Well generally when i am evaluating something, i do it based off the information i get. It isn't a blind taste test we are doing. Why is this system better than the other one? It is not always obvious by looking at it because as players we don't have access to that info. I, think the system is better. It is not how i would have solved those problems but it is an improvement nonetheless.

I think the system is better based on what they have said and on my experience with it on PTS.

As dummies are bugged and - as they are not striking back - only of limited value anyhow, there are only few statements about real pve tests.

One healer stated that (with about 1200 cp) healing was ok in vCR, but he was so squishy that he even died from a glance of a lowly add - knowing vCR, that looks like a severe nerf which would hinder people to clear that content who now can do it without too much trouble. On the other hand, another person with about 1400 cp stated that, for him, vMSA was similar on pts and on life.

Therefore, could you please elaborate which content you have tested on PTS? I would really be interested in getting some first hand experience as I'll only jump onto pts once the EU copies are active.

I thought i had. Ive done several world bosses( i am about CP 900). Specifically the ones for leads for pale order and wild hunt rings( greenshade world bosses) and several in Deshaan and Rivenspire( set farming). I farm all these solo on both servers.
I also soloed nFG1 and nBC1 which i have both soloed recently on live. I have specifically picked things i have done recently on live so i can get a feel of the difference. I have not noticed a significant difference.

I should also note i am not a number cruncher, min/maxer, meta player, etc. I dont hit end game DPS numbers so your experience may vary depending on all that. The important take away, for me, is content i could solo before i can still solo now.

Edit: I also want to point out i have not done any group content, as a group, on PTS as it is typically late when i play on there and the population is very tiny even at peak.

tmbrinks

virtus753 wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Honestly, the power creep needed a nerf it was getting ridiculous. People are hitting 100k DPS. 40k use to be elite end game not to long ago and we had a big pause in even having CP level increases.

40k was elite on a 6mil dummy. 100k parses are being done on the trial (iron atro) dummy. They are not at all equivalent, and there is no mathematical way of converting one to the other without knowing every detail of the parse (nor would it be worth it to create the tool to do that). For what it's worth, 40k is still pretty elite on a 6mil, with truly elite players being able to crack 50k.

Has dps increased over time? Yes. Has it increased by a factor of 2.5 in recent memory, as these numbers suggest? Not at all.

How about Rakkhat Parses? Is that a fair comparison?

Because when vMoL came out about 30k was good on the dummy and 35-40k on Rakkhat was "elite" when you added in the buff sets and full group.

Now people are getting 100k+ easily on Rakkhat. So yes, I'd argue that DPS is up by a factor of 2.5 in that time.

Yes, dummy parses haven't gone up that much.

But what has increased are the massive numbers of "buff" sets that are available to groups.

I remember as a healer I would wear Mending/SPC back in the vMoL days. One set for a buff (major courage) the other to buffing my heals. Other healer might be in Worm/something else (I remember doing Worm/Imperium in my group). Now, healers don't wear any sets to buff their heals in end-game content. It's all group buffs.

(SPC/Olo) for major courage, Z'en's for 5% more damage, MK for 8% more damage (5/8ths of the time), RO/Jorvulds for huge Major Slayer uptimes, Elemental catalyst on a dps for more damage, ice staves for more minor brittle.

All of these have increased DPS massively as well.

100k dps parses are ridiculous and have destroyed and made a joke of much of the old content. Frankly, we were due for a "correction" in dps. There are also too many buff sets and that will have to be looked at eventually.

bluebird

ThorianB wrote: »

Knocks back power creep - This is due to stat balancing, doesn't need a new CP system.

I disagree there are stars in the current tree that i can continuously pump points into to do more damage. That is power creep.

Erm... no. You were able to spend up to 100 points in any star max, and the stats had diminishing returns so every subsequent point gave you less value. You could also only spend 810 cp in total. Compared to CP 2.0 which has NO diminishing returns, and scales up to 2900cp (you can keep dumping points into passive, no-need-to-slot perks).

Those stars provide options to tailor the character for how you want to play it. Except instead of needing to do a remap of your points every time you want to change something for something you could just change a few stars out of the slots. Also gives even less reason to get to 3600CP and why there isnt going to be the huge difference between 0,810,3600 CP you think their is at end game. The new system is about making good choices, the old system was about just grind to max and wait for cap to be raised.

You didn't need to remap your points every time you wanted to do something, because you picked up many bonuses at no extra CP cost, and didn't need to play around with slotting / unslotting them. Now the same bonuses will need CP spent on them to unlock (not to mention CP spent on other stuff in the line just to get to them), and you'll have to slot them to even do anything. There is no 'choice', there will be a BiS setup in every scenario - or, if you're arguing that the slotting of perks is the choice people need to make, that just supports my argument that this turns the game into a min-max micromanage minigame (or essentially having to use Loadout Addons) that noobs won't be able to do, so it just widens the skill gap.

If you honestly think this is about making good choices (linear gating and predetermined paths say hi, choices, bye choices ), please go play some other games and see how people actually prevent power creep and how they manage actually impactful and useful choices. CP 2.0 isn't it.

You have subconstellations within 3 constellations now, rather than separate thematic constellations

So a constellation all based around a single theme is NOT more sensible to you? I don't even know what to say to that.

... Read what I said maybe? A constellation based around a single theme WOULD be more sensible. But CP 2.0 is the opposite. Skyrim had linear perks (which is clearly the inspiration behind CP 2.0) but these were themed around the same thing. Even in CP 1.0 I had way more freedom to choose what I wanted if I wanted a theme.


In CP 2.0, the blue tree is healing, dps, and defense at the same time (greatly overvaluing one color of CP over the other two, extending how long it takes for new players to catch up to the performance of old players). It has 2 subconstellations, one for dps perks, one for defensive perks... but there are many dps perks and defensive perks outside of those subconstellations too. So the divisions are arbitrary; they make no sense. There is a Weapon and Spell damage perk in the main constellation, and a weapon and spell damage perk inside the subconstellation. Reduced damage taken from DoTs is in the main tree, reduces damage taken from Magical and Physical attacks is in the subconstellation. Healing perks don't have a subconstellation at all. Increases healing taken is in a subconstellation, but increases healing done is allowed to remain in the main tree. Just bizarre.

If you want a sensible division, check out Skyrim or this table I made:

So far, from what i can tell, a majority of players are supportive of these changes.

Again, citation needed Also, I don't care if you like the system. Just don't base that argument on fake claims, or on a false dichotomy as if it's only CP 2.0 or the old system with no other possibly better alternative - no, many games have solved the issues that you talk about in different ways, and ESO also had the potential to change for the better without introducing the slew of issues that CP 2.0 adds alongside the unrelated benefits.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

ThorianB wrote: »

FinrodMacBeorn wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

You seemed to focus a lot on 'in their words' and 'devs have said' and 'listen to the devs'.

Well generally when i am evaluating something, i do it based off the information i get. It isn't a blind taste test we are doing. Why is this system better than the other one? It is not always obvious by looking at it because as players we don't have access to that info. I, think the system is better. It is not how i would have solved those problems but it is an improvement nonetheless.

I think the system is better based on what they have said and on my experience with it on PTS.

As dummies are bugged and - as they are not striking back - only of limited value anyhow, there are only few statements about real pve tests.

One healer stated that (with about 1200 cp) healing was ok in vCR, but he was so squishy that he even died from a glance of a lowly add - knowing vCR, that looks like a severe nerf which would hinder people to clear that content who now can do it without too much trouble. On the other hand, another person with about 1400 cp stated that, for him, vMSA was similar on pts and on life.

Therefore, could you please elaborate which content you have tested on PTS? I would really be interested in getting some first hand experience as I'll only jump onto pts once the EU copies are active.

I thought i had. Ive done several world bosses( i am about CP 900). Specifically the ones for leads for pale order and wild hunt rings( greenshade world bosses) and several in Deshaan and Rivenspire( set farming). I farm all these solo on both servers.
I also soloed nFG1 and nBC1 which i have both soloed recently on live. I have specifically picked things i have done recently on live so i can get a feel of the difference. I have not noticed a significant difference.

I should also note i am not a number cruncher, min/maxer, meta player, etc. I dont hit end game DPS numbers so your experience may vary depending on all that. The important take away, for me, is content i could solo before i can still solo now.

Edit: I also want to point out i have not done any group content, as a group, on PTS as it is typically late when i play on there and the population is very tiny even at peak.

You just listed probably the two easiest dungeons to solo on normal difficulty. Of course you can still do that with the new CP system. You should be able to solo those without any CP TBH.

This is not about power creep, it is about moving the end line of where you need to be at for a min/maxed combat experience. Some people don't min/max or care about min/maxing at all, and that is perfectly fine. But if you push trial score, or play CP PVP at a high level, they just moved the end line by a massive amount all at once. Because some players will grind the CP to whatever it takes, that means anyone wanting to compete has to as well. They are putting the competitive end game community on a massive grind wheel, which is going to cause veteran players to revaluate whether they continue in ESO. That is not a good thing.

I don't hate the new system, and in many ways I see it as an improvement over the old system (especially when it comes to server calculations), but there are some very obvious flaws that need looked at.

First, the cap is moving too far all at once. I am all for being able to use CP past 810, but they need to introduce new caps in reasonable intervals to allow people to stay near the cap with reasonable playtime from patch to patch.

Second, they need to bring back diminishing returns, which don't exist in the new model. They have stated they want vertical progression to end at a reasonable level to not be so daunting for beginners. This is literally the exact opposite of that (especially when combined with point 3).

Third, They need to give more freedom in spending points, and/or rework the green tree. We basically have one tree that is useless for combat, but still requires slotting passives for certain things? This will boil down to nothing but a headache for players, and because you still have to spend points in green, just pushes the cap for vertical progression to a higher level.


I could go on, but those things would be a heck of start.

ThorianB

bluebird wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Knocks back power creep - This is due to stat balancing, doesn't need a new CP system.

I disagree there are stars in the current tree that i can continuously pump points into to do more damage. That is power creep.

Erm... no. You were able to spend up to 100 points in any star max, and the stats had diminishing returns so every subsequent point gave you less value. You could also only spend 810 cp in total. Compared to CP 2.0 which has NO diminishing returns, and scales up to 2900cp (you can keep dumping points into passive, no-need-to-slot perks).

Those stars provide options to tailor the character for how you want to play it. Except instead of needing to do a remap of your points every time you want to change something for something you could just change a few stars out of the slots. Also gives even less reason to get to 3600CP and why there isnt going to be the huge difference between 0,810,3600 CP you think their is at end game. The new system is about making good choices, the old system was about just grind to max and wait for cap to be raised.

You didn't need to remap your points every time you wanted to do something, because you picked up many bonuses at no extra CP cost, and didn't need to play around with slotting / unslotting them. Now the same bonuses will need CP spent on them to unlock (not to mention CP spent on other stuff in the line just to get to them), and you'll have to slot them to even do anything. There is no 'choice', there will be a BiS setup in every scenario - or, if you're arguing that the slotting of perks is the choice people need to make, that just supports my argument that this turns the game into a min-max micromanage minigame (or essentially having to use Loadout Addons) that noobs won't be able to do, so it just widens the skill gap.

If you honestly think this is about making good choices (linear gating and predetermined paths say hi, choices, bye choices ), please go play some other games and see how people actually prevent power creep and how they manage actually impactful and useful choices. CP 2.0 isn't it.

You have subconstellations within 3 constellations now, rather than separate thematic constellations

So a constellation all based around a single theme is NOT more sensible to you? I don't even know what to say to that.

... Read what I said maybe? A constellation based around a single theme WOULD be more sensible. But CP 2.0 is the opposite. Skyrim had linear perks (which is clearly the inspiration behind CP 2.0) but these were themed around the same thing. Even in CP 1.0 I had way more freedom to choose what I wanted if I wanted a theme.


In CP 2.0, the blue tree is healing, dps, and defense at the same time (greatly overvaluing one color of CP over the other two, extending how long it takes for new players to catch up to the performance of old players). It has 2 subconstellations, one for dps perks, one for defensive perks... but there are many dps perks and defensive perks outside of those subconstellations too. So the divisions are arbitrary; they make no sense. There is a Weapon and Spell damage perk in the main constellation, and a weapon and spell damage perk inside the subconstellation. Reduced damage taken from DoTs is in the main tree, reduces damage taken from Magical and Physical attacks is in the subconstellation. Healing perks don't have a subconstellation at all. Increases healing taken is in a subconstellation, but increases healing done is allowed to remain in the main tree. Just bizarre.

If you want a sensible division, check out Skyrim or this table I made:

So far, from what i can tell, a majority of players are supportive of these changes.

Again, citation needed Also, I don't care if you like the system. Just don't base that argument on fake claims, or on a false dichotomy as if it's only CP 2.0 or the old system with no other possibly better alternative - no, many games have solved the issues that you talk about in different ways, and ESO also had the potential to change for the better without introducing the slew of issues that CP 2.0 adds alongside the unrelated benefits.

There is no point in continuing this debate with you. We are never going to agree. You obviously see things very different than me and that is ok. I like the new system, a lot of people like the new system and think it is better than what we had. So we will just agree to disagree and move on because this debate is becoming stagnantly boring now.