New CP is a bit of an illusion.. too many passive non-slottable bonuses. Driving away new players

Nerhesi

As per the title , and as several others have indicated, the passive bonuses for basically grinding your life out are way too powerful.

Looking at the warfare tree - high CPs allow you a net increase of 5-10%+ in almost all categories simply for having CPs. This is very... strange given the whole point of this CP redo was to finally move this game towards more "meaningful choices" - yet you just added free bonuses that are sometimes as good or better than the slottables... but behind even more CP. So basically, it's back to square one.

Couple of options:
Ideally, I think it would be better to have more powerful slottable CPs down the sub trees, rather than free passives.
OR
Make those high-CP passives way weaker. They should be giving you 1500+ pen or 5% more damage, healing, mitigation, etc.... they should be at 1 or 2% mark at most. It's nice accomplishment but since it's free, it's not a game changer.

stefj68

well actually i think their is not enough passives, and way to many slottables...
if you look for example at the craft tree u have like 16 you can slot but only like 4 passives

katorga

stefj68 wrote: »

well actually i think their is not enough passives, and way to many slottables...
if you look for example at the craft tree u have like 16 you can slot but only like 4 passives

Fishing hole runs out, move to the next one, oh wait there is a chest gotta change my active CP, or wait there's a resource node, gotta change again, now at the next fishing hole, gotta change again.

FrancisCrawford

Non-slottables need to consume many fewer CP than they do on the PTS, either through lower cost or diminishing returns.

stefj68

katorga wrote: »

stefj68 wrote: »

well actually i think their is not enough passives, and way to many slottables...
if you look for example at the craft tree u have like 16 you can slot but only like 4 passives

Fishing hole runs out, move to the next one, oh wait there is a chest gotta change my active CP, or wait there's a resource node, gotta change again, now at the next fishing hole, gotta change again.

hahaha

the swapping of slottable in the craft (constallation) is totally stupid :P already posted on that

Nyladreas

I feel like the always active passives are a major oversight... They stated in the livestream that you'll only need 1200 and that any point above will only contribute to your ability to change your skill bar on the go.

It all seems very contradictory to what the devs actually explained.

FrancisCrawford

Nyladreas wrote: »

I feel like the always active passives are a major oversight... They stated in the livestream that you'll only need 1200 and that any point above will only contribute to your ability to change your skill bar on the go.

It all seems very contradictory to what the devs actually explained.

That's massively false in the case of the blue tree.

Nerhesi

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Nyladreas wrote: »

I feel like the always active passives are a major oversight... They stated in the livestream that you'll only need 1200 and that any point above will only contribute to your ability to change your skill bar on the go.

It all seems very contradictory to what the devs actually explained.

That's massively false in the case of the blue tree.

That is exactly the problem.

Also, the annoyance of having to swap slottables to support fishing, gathering or crafting can be definitely considered much less of a burden to the game than massive passive bonuses.

Heck, I think at some point this game may finally realise the need to simply have ~6 total slottables that affect combat and let players make the choice between offense and defense completely. With the only passives being those that affect crafting or other non-combat interactions.

The game has to stop giving things for free and simply repeating the problems of the past (homogenous builds, lack of identity, powercreep, etc)

remosito

stefj68 wrote: »

well actually i think their is not enough passives, and way to many slottables...
if you look for example at the craft tree u have like 16 you can slot but only like 4 passives

Green tree is really bad that way. A lot of those slottable should be passives.

Troodon80

I agree with there not being enough slottable options. I went in to the two new dungeons on veteran hard mode with with some friends. I was tanking, as I do on Live. In the process of getting the template up to speed on day one, I worked on the CP for almost a day; I spent hours pouring over the tooltips, working out what each of our new CP options did. At the very end, I slotted the Steed's Blessing (50% movement speed) and called it a day.

Yes, you read that correctly. There are twelve available slots in total allowing you to spend four from each tree... and I slotted one from the green tree. Tanks get everything passively. The new system is, quite frankly, bizarre. It definitely does favour higher CP over lower CP and the people who will feel the most restricted and least powerful are the people with lower CP.

stefj68 wrote: »

well actually i think their is not enough passives, and way to many slottables...
if you look for example at the craft tree u have like 16 you can slot but only like 4 passives

I'm quite certain they are referring to the system as a whole and not just the green tree.

Elo106

As a new player you will be stuck grinding CP for a while. Imagine hitting level 50 thinking you are max level only to find out you need to get to CP 160 for max level gear, only to find out you need to grind some thousand CPs. The Grind never ends.

GrimTheReaper45

Would like to add that both the majority of players ive seen and myself have no problem with the slotted abilities. Its only the amount of passive abilities.

thedoodle_90

The easiest fix would simply be lower the cost of the passives. So people can cap them and move on to the slottables.

SeaUnicorn

Keep in mind that reducing the strength of passive CP may result in some end game content that was designed around old CP character strength unclearable. I would much rather see lower cost on passive CP, so they all add up to about 800 CP and higher cost on slottables as 100 each, so that with more CP you actually unlock more slottables for convenience, not forced to grind 2400 CP just to be able to compete with other high CP players.

Camb0Sl1ce

@SeaUnicorn like that idea makes alot more sense.

Xebov

Nerhesi wrote: »

As per the title , and as several others have indicated, the passive bonuses for basically grinding your life out are way too powerful.

That part realy depends on how fats you can progress through CP. Looking at the current progression it would be problematic, but if CP would be collected with 3 or 4 times the speed it would be a different story.

stefj68 wrote: »

well actually i think their is not enough passives, and way to many slottables...
if you look for example at the craft tree u have like 16 you can slot but only like 4 passives

The craft tree is a big negative example because it contains alot of misc and QoL things that you would have to constantly change around for efficiency while the other 2 go more into build dependant directions.

Cuddler

All stars that impact combat should be made slottable. This would limit vertical progression to the first 200-300 points in each tree. All points beyond that would simply let us avoid paying for respecs.

The slottable stars would include some 'green' stars such as movement speed, armour repair costs, food duration etc.

All stars that do not impact combat should be made passive and open irrespective of points spent in other stars. I see no reason why "Increases quality of items found in treasure chests" should be gated behind "Reduces the time it takes to harvest", and why either should be slottable.

thedoodle_90

Also why is inspiration boost a gating passive since once you arte lvl 50 crafts you don't even need it?!

Nerhesi

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Keep in mind that reducing the strength of passive CP may result in some end game content that was designed around old CP character strength unclearable. I would much rather see lower cost on passive CP, so they all add up to about 800 CP and higher cost on slottables as 100 each, so that with more CP you actually unlock more slottables for convenience, not forced to grind 2400 CP just to be able to compete with other high CP players.

Theoretically you are correct - but functionally it may be a non issue given:

a) The massive free stats we're now getting
b) The fact that you will still get bonsues through actives
c) The lack of difficulty associated with end game content

So yes we are losing damage from old school passives. But we're getting actives and a ton of free stats to combat end game pve that really couldn't have been considered soooo challenging.

If there is a nice scenario in an an end game, then that can be tailored a lot more easily than trying to balance for a much more variable playerbase.

Nerhesi

thedoodle_90 wrote: »

The easiest fix would simply be lower the cost of the passives. So people can cap them and move on to the slottables.

But then, by that logic ( and I agree with this logic) - give all the passive away for free?

Why gate them behind a grind? Give us better actives that even combine the passives. Then I may actually feel like I'm playing different toons!

Tannus15

The devs and the community are thinking about the blue tree completely differently.

It's clear that they consider it to have 3 distinct categories, damage, mitigation and healing. You're only intended to have 1 set of these passives and 4 slottables.

The community is not seeing that at all and is considering all passives to be equal. Unless they gate the passives in some way to make it a choice that is not a sure CP number requirement we'll continue to think of this way.

Make the purple constellations exclusive, so you can only have one, and this "problem" is fixed.

Xebov

Tannus15 wrote: »

Make the purple constellations exclusive, so you can only have one, and this "problem" is fixed.

It would just turn Tanks on the short end of the stick again. Tanks would have to skill defense and would have little option to spec as DDs easily. If you want them to be mutual exclusive just make them a slotable and have players to choose one at a time with both being available.

Tannus15

Xebov wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Make the purple constellations exclusive, so you can only have one, and this "problem" is fixed.

It would just turn Tanks on the short end of the stick again. Tanks would have to skill defense and would have little option to spec as DDs easily. If you want them to be mutual exclusive just make them a slotable and have players to choose one at a time with both being available.

Yes. If you put mitigation, healing and damage all in the same tree this is going to be an issue, no matter what you do. Let's be realistic, most people aren't going to have enough CP to fill out mitigations passives and damage passives and have 4 tanking slotables and 4 damage slotables so they can hot swap between DD and tanking.

Also, can people stop saying stuff like this Driving away new players
It's such a huge assumption. New players won't even know about CP until they hit level 50, getting 160 cp takes hardly any time after that. In fact from what I've seen new players get to around CP 300 / 400 without really thinking about it.

Xebov

Tannus15 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Make the purple constellations exclusive, so you can only have one, and this "problem" is fixed.

It would just turn Tanks on the short end of the stick again. Tanks would have to skill defense and would have little option to spec as DDs easily. If you want them to be mutual exclusive just make them a slotable and have players to choose one at a time with both being available.

Yes. If you put mitigation, healing and damage all in the same tree this is going to be an issue, no matter what you do. Let's be realistic, most people aren't going to have enough CP to fill out mitigations passives and damage passives and have 4 tanking slotables and 4 damage slotables so they can hot swap between DD and tanking.

Which would still not be an argument against having a better mututal exclusive way.

Tannus15

Xebov wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Make the purple constellations exclusive, so you can only have one, and this "problem" is fixed.

It would just turn Tanks on the short end of the stick again. Tanks would have to skill defense and would have little option to spec as DDs easily. If you want them to be mutual exclusive just make them a slotable and have players to choose one at a time with both being available.

Yes. If you put mitigation, healing and damage all in the same tree this is going to be an issue, no matter what you do. Let's be realistic, most people aren't going to have enough CP to fill out mitigations passives and damage passives and have 4 tanking slotables and 4 damage slotables so they can hot swap between DD and tanking.

Which would still not be an argument against having a better mututal exclusive way.

I agree, I'm just pointing out that the argument that tanks wouldn't be able to hot swap is a bit of a straw man since tanks wouldn't be able to anyway without 3000+ CP.

What we need for the "option to spec as DDs easily" is to be able to create build CP templates and be able to swap them over. Preferably for free, though 3k gold isn't that big of an issue, but definitely much easier than we currently do.

Nairinhe

Doesn't not having enough CP to have all the passives do exactly that - makes them mutually exclusive? But still gives you freedom to take a bit of this and a bit of that if you want to or put everything into optimized build? And when you get more you can spend some on your side bi... build?

And I don't think new players would have any problem, unless they ask here for advice and get smacked in the face with end-game builds and lighting fast I-haven't-actually-played-the-game leveling.

codierussell

@Tannus15 The devs may think that but it is wrong thinking on their part. Although I agree with you and the devs that having all the passive nodes maxed out is probably not needed, but at the same time having 810CP on live is not needed to do all the content.

The problem that people like myself and other end game players are pointing out is the fact that vertical progression does not stop at 1200 CP, and everyone who thinks it does is not familiar how much a few percent here and there will make in end game PVE and PVP. Vertical progression stops when you have all the blue tree passives 100% maxed out and your 4 active stars maxed out, which has been pointed out is about 3200 CP. Whether you need this CP to complete is irrelevant because it gives you an edge. As a DD 10% extra mitigation is huge, 10% healing taken is huge.

What the devs missed is that even though the CP isn't needed low CP players are going to be left out just as much due to the CP requirements that players ask for goes up. I would not be surprised for end game trial guilds to ask from 1600+ CP when the patch drops.

Tannus15

@codierussell 10% healing taken is nice, 10% extra mitigation is nice, but it's not huge. even score pushers groups are only going to care about raw dps + trial log performance.

That mitigation and incoming healing only matters IF you're dying a lot AND that CP will stop you from dying a lot. I promise you if you can get into TTT or IR groups now, these CP changes are not going to change that. If you can't get into them because your dps is too low then getting 1600cp isn't going to change that.

codierussell

@Tannus15 10% mitigation makes a huge difference with how aggressively you can push in certain scenarios. For example, 10% mitigation for VAS can 100% be the difference of you dying to cone or surviving. Sure at the top level it doesn't effect them much but you know how many groups are able to do that stuff currently, not a lot. So when you have VAS getting progressively harder the less dps your group has, that 10% mitigation is extremely useful on top of all the extra dps passives they can get.

In my opinion this raises the gap because sure the top end players won't care and can make it through, but the average player needs all the help they can get. You can go on Youtube and see the best players clear trials with no CP, yet people in the game can't even beat the trials and therefore require everyone to be high CP. At the end of the day you are at a disadvantage if you don't have the 3200 CP or whatever is needed to max out the passives. Even top groups I bet you see grind to a certain extent if they are not already at whatever they deem the minimal amount to be effective.

Troodon80

Tannus15 wrote: »

10% healing taken is nice, 10% extra mitigation is nice, but it's not huge. even score pushers groups are only going to care about raw dps + trial log performance.

That mitigation and incoming healing only matters IF you're dying a lot AND that CP will stop you from dying a lot. I promise you if you can get into TTT or IR groups now, these CP changes are not going to change that. If you can't get into them because your dps is too low then getting 1600cp isn't going to change that.

An edge is still an edge, no matter what way you slice it. For example, more mitigation allows you to play riskier, potentially meaning that your DPS goes up when you don't have to worry as much about incoming damage. Rather than, for example, the first Dawnbringer runs where people went full Iceheart.

spacefracking

The real problem is that players with more champion points will be able to take on extra skills. With the current system of diminishing returns, a CP 500 player isn't that much different than 810.

This new system is broken.