Ring of the Pale Order effect as core Vampire passive

Spectral_Force

The idea that I'd like to present is fairly simple: incorporate the Ring of the Pale Order (RotPO from now on) effect into the core Vampire toolkit; this effect being "Restore X% of the damage you deal as Health, up to a maximum of Y Health per attack. You cannot be healed by anyone but yourself." Actual numbers are up for debate, and are not important at this stage. This post will discuss the concept, not the final implementation of the idea; however, the original effect's 18% of the damage up to 2750 Health can be viewed as the baseline. This is not my first lengthy discussion; rather, in a continuous effort to improve the state of Vampires in ESO I approach various ideas that can realistically be implemented, and I explore them from many different angles so the ZOS development team can see the merit in at least some aspects of my suggestions.

Credit where credit is due, this post is inspired by user @Vevvev in this discussion, namely this comment:

Vevvev wrote: »

With the Ring of the Pale Order feeding heals you for the max instance of healing possible. Reason being is Blade of Woe and it's copy paste Feed do damage equal to 100% of the target's max health.

Anyone else feel like the Ring's effect should just be a byproduct of slotting the Blood Scion ultimate or a dedicated passive? It really is the catalyst to make the skill line feel vampiric and it's locked behind a pay wall.

While this is where the idea originated, I intend to elaborate on the possible ways of implementing it into the game, as well as the possible effects these changes will have on vampires and the RotPO itself. Some discussion of the idea also occurred there, and I may mention topics we went over in that discussion. I by no means intend to "steal ideas" with this suggestion, I merely wish to move the discussion which, alas, went off topic (as the original post talks about vampires healing when feeding on NPCs) to its own thread.

Without further ado, let's discuss the idea.

What does this suggestion actually give us? Without concerning ourselves with the finer details at this point, let's get the most obvious points out of the way:

• RoTPO is a very popular item in dedicated Vampire builds, mostly because it oh-so-flavourfully allows vampires to heal themselves while damaging the enemy, and because two of the six Vampire abilities use health as a resource (Blood for Blood and Blood Frenzy +morphs). At the same time, the ring's downside is not as severe since three of the vampire abilities already prevent healing by outside sources (Blood for Blood, Blood Frenzy +morphs, Mist Form +morphs). This, however, requires players to sacrifice an equipment slot to gain the ability some would call essential for an enjoyable Vampire experience.
• RoTPO is an antiquity. This means players who don't have ESO Plus or haven't purchased the Greymoor expansion, as well as players who are unwilling to engage with the Antiquities system are barred from using the Ring. If the suggestion was to make it into the game, Vampires will be able to receive the effect without having the ring. Conversely, becoming a vampire becomes an alternative way to receive the same benefit for people who are unable/unwilling to engage with the Antiquities system, though it is weighed down by other factors.
• In case of stacking the newly-native RotPO effect with the actual Ring, Vampires gain a doubled (or at least increased) Health gain effect, which means it remains relevant even for vampire players. At the same time, the two effects must be balanced accordingly.
• According to Vevvev, RotPO allows vampires to gain health from feeding, as the act of feeding deals damage to the NPC equal to their max Health; this often results in the max instance of healing the ring allows. Adding this effect to Vampirism will allow players to heal when feeding, which is a feature that's been requested several times across the forums and that will undoubtedly make playing at Stage 4 a much smoother experience.
• Without sugarcoating it, this change will make Vampires less desirable for group content. The extent of this will be based on how the effect is implemented (see below), but vampirism will become (or at least remain) a serious consideration if you desire to run in a group. Funnily enough, this will impact Healers the least, so the comparative incentive to be a Vampire Healer will rise.
• The reduction/prevention of receiving healing from other players is fairly consistent with Skyrim's Restoration system, where Undead can only be healed by specific spells; at the same time, a Vampire player character can heal themselves with with usual self-heal spells with the same efficiency as a mortal player character.
• Ironically, this change turns RotPO into a vampire version of Hircine's Ring flavour-wise, giving mortals a "taste of power" while Vampires can reap its benefits without suffering the drawbacks (as the same drawback is already native to them).

As has been talked about in the original discussion, there are several potential ways of implementing the RotPO effect into the Vampire toolkit in a way that we know is possible given the limitations of the game's engine based on abilities already present in the game. They include:

• Adding this effect to the Feed passive, turning it into a baseline boon for all Vampires at all Stages. Both the %-heal and %-heal-from-outside-sources-reduction may scale based on your Stage and can potentially replace any or all current benefits and drawbacks of vampirism.
• Creating a new passive specifically for this effect, meaning players can opt into receiving its benefits and drawbacks, and it requires respeccing to opt out, making it expensive to keep switching it on and off. Depending on whether this effect is Stage-bound, it can be easier to opt in and out of using it while also making the Stage consideration more important.
• Adding the effect to one of the existing Vampire passives, changing players' perception of its utility in a variety of situations while also making the Stage consideration more important.
• Adding the effect to one of the Vampire abilities on activation; depending on whether it's an instant-cast ability, channelled ability, or toggled ability, this effect can either occur for X seconds after activation or become active while the parent ability remains on, changing the ability's utility in different situations. This is much easier to opt out of than previous methods as simply not using the ability will allow you to be healed again.
• Adding the effect to one of the Vampire abilities as a "while-slotted" effect; this is a more permanent solution than the previous suggestion, which can both be a blessing and a curse; however, it can also be more precisely controlled by swapping bars if the ability is only slotted on one bar. Unslotting the ability is how the RotPO effect can be opted out of in this case.

Let's break these down individually:

Adding this effect to the Feed passive turns the RotPO effect into another upside-downside dimension for Vampire players. This can either remain as a static effect for all Stages (for example, 18% of the damage will be returned as Health while blocking outside healing), or it can be made to scale with your Stage as we know is possible (for example, 5%/10%/15%/20% returned as Health while reducing healing received from other players by 25%/50%/75%/100% at Stage 1/2/3/4). These values can be tweaked for balance purposes, and can offset or even replace the existing drawbacks. For example, if the %-cost increase and reduction were to be removed, a Stage 4 Vampire will take increased Fire damage, will have their Health Recovery nullified and will be unable to receive healing from outside sources, but will in turn be receiving a large portion of the damage they deal as health; at the same time, a Stage 1 Vampire will feel a substantial decrease in healing received from other players (compared to being mortal) while still being able to leech some health from their enemies, making it impossible to completely bypass the downside of vampirism while offsetting the reduced healing from other players with native, damage-based self-heals. Depending on the numbers, Tanks will probably find this ability to be detrimental in group play, DPS players will either see an increase or decrease in survivability, and Healers will only benefit from the change.

Creating a new passive specifically for this effect will give players full control over whether or not they want to get the health leech and suffer the no-healing drawback. We know that this passive can be set up to only activate at a certain Stage, but there's no precedent for Vampire passives scaling with Stage. As such, there can only be two states - not active and fully active. However, this can be a multi-levelled passive which should allow players to control the intensity of benefits and drawbacks. For example, first level passive can return 9% of damage as health while reducing outside healing by 50%, and second level passive can return 18% of damage and reduce outside healing by 100%. It might be a good idea to place the RotPO passive at Stage 4, seeing as this is the intended stage for dedicated Vampire builds, and there's currently not enough incentive to actually go that far since the drawbacks far outweigh the benefits, but nevertheless the Stage is up for debate. Again, I'm pitching a concept here, not the fully realised and balanced idea.

Adding the effect to one of the existing Vampire passives will most likely be easier to implement than the previous option, but it will inevitably alter the balance of the parent passive, making it more or less desirable depending on the build you're aiming for. Out of all the Vampire passives, Undeath seems to be the most thematically fitting; mechanically, this is the only passive (excluding Feed) that directly impacts your Health, so it would make sense to place the RotPO effect here. Besides, seeing how Undeath only activates at Stage 3, this gives players who wish to remain at lower stages (whether to minimise the downsides or if Vampire was taken as a cosmetic/roleplay choice) the ability to bypass the no-healing drawback; at the same time, dedicated Vampire builds will be more incentivised to increase their Vampire Stage. It is nonetheless possible to attach this effect to any existing passive, from Dark Stalker to Unnatural Movement.

Adding the effect to one of the Vampire abilities on activation will severely impact the way this ability is used. As mentioned above, the way this effect will work will depend on whether the parent ability is an Instant Cast, a Channel, or a Toggle. The RotPO effect can be introduced either to the base ability and both morphs, or only to a single morph. Let's break the abilities down one-by-one and explore how the RotPO effect will work with Vampire abilities:

• Eviscerate and morphs: Since this is an Instant Cast ability, the effect will last for X seconds upon activation. Blood for Blood already has the RotPO downside effect attached to it, so it's not much of a stretch to attach the Health leech effect to it as well. The Health returned value, as well as Damage and Cost of the ability, can be tweaked according to the new utility of the ability. Gameplay-wise, this ability will become similar to Swallow Soul - an ability that can be used as a spammable, while also making it possible to incorporate it into your rotation alongside other damage-dealing abilities, since the healing you receive will be based on total damage you do (unlike Swallow Soul, where the healing is based on damage done with the ability itself).
• Blood Frenzy and morphs: While I'll have a lot more to say about this ability in the next section, making the RotPO effect activate when you toggle the ability will be too confusing. You end up paying increasingly more Health for increased damage, while also being able to regenerate Health based on the damage you do. It's possible to attach the effect to this ability in this way, but there is a better way to go about it (more on this below).
• Vampiric Drain and morphs: As it stands right now, attaching the RotPO effect to Drain for the duration of the channel would be redundant - this ability already deals damage and heals you (the effectiveness of both are a whole different subject for another time). This leaves activating the effect for X seconds as the channel starts, and activating the effect for X seconds as the channel ends, very much like the stun that Vampiric Drain used to inflict in its two iterations before the reVamp. The first option will allow Stage 4 Vampires to heal themselves to full using Vampiric Drain thanks to the damage-based Heal (unless I'm mistaken, you're only able to heal yourself to 99% since the ability heals you based on missing Health), while higher-skill players will be able to cancel the channel to still gain the RotPO effect (again, similar to how Drain used to be used for stunning enemies). The second option will require more commitment and can be interrupted, meaning the beneficial effect will have to be scaled accordingly; this option also makes more sense mechanically since you will not be receiving two simultaneous instances of healing from the same ability like with the first version. Overall, this ability is a fine choice to attach the RotPO effect to, but at this stage the Vampire skill line may be getting oversaturated with abilities that block healing from outside sources.
• Mesmerize and morphs: A common complaint among the Vampire players is that Mesmerize is an underpowered ability because it doesn't do anything other than stun enemies (and also having inconsistent detection, but that's besides the point). Adding the RotPO effect for X seconds to Mesmerize may solve this problem, but thematically this decision simply doesn't make any sense. Besides, this will also start weighing the skill line down with heal preventing abilities.
• Mist Form and morphs: Attaching the effect to Mist Form and Elusive Mist doesn't make much sense, so Blood Mist remains the only option. Since the ability already has a very similar (in fact, better) effect at its core, it would only make sense to activate the RotPO effect for X seconds after you leave Blood Mist. This would allow players to weave Blood Mist into their rotation to make use of both the RotPO effect as well as the Strike from the Shadows passive.
• Blood Scion and morphs: since Scion already heals you for % of damage done, attaching the effect to the Ultimate would simply be a nerf to the ability. Unless the effect is activated for X seconds after the ability ends, this is not the way to do it. Much like with Frenzy, there is a better way to implement this suggestion for Blood Scion.

Adding the effect to one of the Vampire abilities as a "while-slotted" effect is similar to the above suggestion, except the effect will be more permanent, as well as being easier to control than timed effects since a simple bar swap is enough to end the effect. Going over the abilities again:

• Eviscerate and morphs: Since this is your spammable, it would make more sense to have the RotPO effect activate for X seconds after using the ability, as while-slotted effects are often reserved for situational skills that may not see use during an encounter, or for weaker, utility-oriented spammables. It's still a possible avenue to give the while-slotted effect to Blood for Blood, however, solidifying its choice as a solo player's spammable.
• Blood Frenzy and morphs: This is where it gets interesting. Adding a while-slotted RotPO effect to Frenzy and its morphs will introduce an interesting dynamic to the way the ability is used - when the ability is turned on, the health leech along with the increased damage will allow players to increase the uptime of the ability; and when the ability is turned off, the health leech will allow players to quickly recover the health they spent on using it. At the same time it can be kept on the skillbar just for the effect and never be used, similar to Inner Light. The two most common complaints with this ability are that Frenzy is an unimaginative, damage-increasing suicide button, and that it is distinctly un-vampiric (despite the reveal video claiming otherwise); adding RotPO as a while-slotted effect should solve, or at least alleviate, both problems, since it becomes more interesting mechanically and introduces a leech mechanic, redeeming it as a more conventionally vampiric skill. In my opinion, this is a very strong contender.
• Vampiric Drain and morphs: This will certainly make Drain more tempting to slot, though it will, again, become a fourth ability in the skill line that prevents others from being able to heal you. Besides, if this is how the effect should be implemented, it would be better to remove the health-based heal completely and turn Drain into a damage-dealing channel, with healing coming from the while-slotted effect. Perhaps a Radiant Glory-like execute? In any case, these fundamental changes to the ability will need to be discussed separately.
• Mesmerize and morphs: Again, this doesn't fit thematically, though the while-slotted effect will incentivise players to keep this ability slotted for more than just talking to vendors at Stage 4.
• Mist Form and morphs: Much like with the previous suggestion, the only ability that thematically makes sense to attach this effect to is Blood Mist. The implementation will be similar in its effects to the previous suggestion, so I don't have much to add. One effect worth mentioning is that the RotPO ability may at times conflict with Blood Mist itself, since against single targets players will most likely do a lot more damage, and therefore receive more healing, than in Blood Mist form. On the other hand, the 75% damage reduction in Mist Form may still keep it as a viable alternative.
• Blood Scion and morphs: This is another good option, partly because it mimics the Werewolf ultimate's while-slotted effect so well. The native percentage heal will need to be removed from Scion, since the RotPO effect supersedes it. The added utility of the ultimate as a passive buff will justify the abnormally-high cost of the ultimate, and will incentivise players to slot it over their class ultimates. This effect can also be attached just to the Perfect Scion ultimate, differentiating it from Swarming Scion even more and actually making it a viable alternative to its older, bat-loving brother.

As you can see, I've deliberately excluded concrete numbers from this post (aside from several examples) as trying to come up with balanced ideas for so many mutually-exclusive suggestions would just be a waste of time and effort. It is probably best to discuss the best way the RotPO effect can be integrated into core Vampirism, and indeed, whether it should be done at all, before numbers become relevant.

Congratulations on reaching the end of this wall of text! Please let me know what you think, as doing so will show ZOS your interest in the idea. Also because it will make me feel better about typing all of this up.

Mettaricana

Be the only thing zos can do to fix how bad vampire sucks...

validifyedneb18_ESO

The ring itself is basically a combination effect of the heal effect from Perfect Scion and the heal limiter of Blood Frenzy

Vevvev

My original thoughts were to make it only effect the vampire abilities and then remove the "you can't be healed by others" since that already exists on multiple vampire abilities.

And to make it so people don't sit at stage 1 all day make it start at 0% at stage 1 and scale up from there. My original values I had thought up was 0%/5%/10%/15% healing received based on damage done with vampire abilities. If ZOS also buffed Vampiric Drain's damage along with this passive being added I could easily see that ability being useful again.

Adding it to the Feed passive is a good idea to counter the health regeneration debuff that gets to 100% at stage 4. This would make vampires feel more Vampiric as they now have an efficient way to siphon life from their foes to fuel their abilities.

edit: Another reason I felt like having it only effect vampire abilities is because we want vampires using them and the Pale Order ring heals based on damage done with light/heavy/medium attacks, DoTs, and other non-vampire abilities and ultimates. Having an additional effect stack with that would be very powerful, especially when further combined with the Blood Scion ultimate that does just that. Swarming Scion + Pale Order Ring in Cyrodiil turns you into an almost unstoppable juggernaut. ((Unless you get zerged down.)) If it didn't effect only vampire abilities you would also see people "Only taking vampire for the passives" and we remember what happened last time...

DT-ARR

Normally agree with vevvev but id vote all abilities and stage 4 but with a lower % heal. Or make ring of the pale order vampire only. (Not that this last bit fixes the core issues with vamp)

Spectral_Force

Vevvev wrote: »

My original thoughts were to make it only effect the vampire abilities and then remove the "you can't be healed by others" since that already exists on multiple vampire abilities.

I'm not sure how much sense it would make to only make it affect Vampire abilities - out of six abilities we have, only Eviscerate, Drain and Blood Mist are capable of dealing damage, and Eviscerate is the only ability that doesn't heal you in the process. Perhaps then it's better to simply add a life drain effect to Eviscerate at that stage, and rebalance the other abilities accordingly. I suppose it could make sense to rework all abilities to not have any healing to instead rely on the RotPO passive to provide you with health. Naturally, they'll need to be balanced around the smaller health return, so they'll need to be buffed in terms of damage to provide more healing. Even if the effect doesn't apply to non-Vampire abilities, I'd still like to see it at least work with Light and Heavy Attacks, as that will considerably increase your self-healing and will add more incentive for Stamina characters to pick up Vampirism (because God knows Stampires need every little bonus they can get).

Also, unless the no-healing restriction is applied to the base skill line, it wouldn't be a good idea to remove this restriction from other abilities. If that were the case, people could simply unslot/not use the RotPO ability (or not spend the perk point on the passive or stay at a lower stage) which will allow others to heal them through Frenzy or Blood Mist, which I imagine would be problematic for balance.

Vevvev wrote: »

And to make it so people don't sit at stage 1 all day make it start at 0% at stage 1 and scale up from there. My original values I had thought up was 0%/5%/10%/15% healing received based on damage done with vampire abilities. If ZOS also buffed Vampiric Drain's damage along with this passive being added I could easily see that ability being useful again.

Starting at 0% definitely makes a lot of sense if we treat Stage 1 as the "opt-out" stage, receiving minimal bonuses and drawbacks. I can get behind that, as long as you still receive 100% healing from outside sources. This is also why we can't simply remove the drawback from the other abilities, as others will be able to heal you right through Frenzy if you stay at Stage 1.

Vevvev wrote: »

Adding it to the Feed passive is a good idea to counter the health regeneration debuff that gets to 100% at stage 4. This would make vampires feel more Vampiric as they now have an efficient way to siphon life from their foes to fuel their abilities.

Exactly what I was thinking - it's a very flavourful dynamic. Progressing through Stages reduces your body's ability to regenerate, so you have to fight in order to sustain yourself. And yes, adding a life siphon to your abilities makes it more alluring to use abilities that cost Health.

Vevvev wrote: »

Another reason I felt like having it only effect vampire abilities is because we want vampires using them and the Pale Order ring heals based on damage done with light/heavy/medium attacks, DoTs, and other non-vampire abilities and ultimates. Having an additional effect stack with that would be very powerful, especially when further combined with the Blood Scion ultimate that does just that. Swarming Scion + Pale Order Ring in Cyrodiil turns you into an almost unstoppable juggernaut. ((Unless you get zerged down.)) If it didn't effect only vampire abilities you would also see people "Only taking vampire for the passives" and we remember what happened last time...

All valid points worthy of consideration. To get the easiest one out of the way, the Scion heal can be removed outright now that your passive is doing the very same thing. The end result is the same, you're just getting the heals from a different source.

I think it would be okay to allow the RotPO effect to work on non-Vampire abilities, as long as the effect is barred behind a high enough Stage, like Stage 3 or 4, or if it only ramps into "useful" amounts at higher stages. In my opinion staying at higher stages already constitutes engagement with the Vampire playstyle, as you have to go out and bite some NPCs (or chug a Corrupting Mara) to reach that stage, as well as having to deal with the relatively high drawbacks of higher stages (+12% regular ability cost is no joke). At that point you will be really tempted to slot at least one or two Vampire abilities, which is already more engagement than pre-reVamp vampirism received.

As for stacking RotPO with the Vampire RotPO effect (VRotPOE?), I can think of several solutions. First, it can flat-out not work on Vampires. Not the most elegant solution, but it gets the job done, I suppose. It can also provide a reduced benefit to Vampire players, for example provide half the healing it normally does, which should keep the Ring's viability on mortal characters while still giving some benefit to Vampire characters. Finally, since we know that Set Bonuses can track your Vampire stage (thanks to the Vampire Lord set), the Ring can have an additional effect that further increases the penalties of Vampirism. Say, +6%/+9%/+12%/+15% Flame Damage taken and +1%/2%/4%/6% increased Regular Ability cost at Stage 1/2/3/4, meaning that while you become really good at sustaining yourself, your regular abilities rise in cost even more, and Flame Damage becomes truly deadly to you. The actual numbers can vary, but this would be the gist of it. These drawbacks wouldn't activate on mortal characters, so for them the Ring will function as it currently does.

Also, this made me think about the Vampire Lord set. If the RotPO effect is attached to the Feed passive, this set can also increase the amount of Health you receive from attacks while at the same time reducing the amount of healing you receive from other players. Something like +0%/+1%/+3%/+5% more healing received from attacks, and reduce healing received from other players by 5%/10%/15%/0% (since it's already -100% at stage 4), which would probably make it more lucrative for Vampire players. Combined with the last suggestion I had for the actual Ring of the Pale Order above, you could stack Stage 4 Vampirism with Ring of the Pale Order and Vampire Lord to get some insane self-heal at the cost of prohibitively high regular ability costs and a serious weakness to Flame Damage. That'd be a fun build, that's for sure.

Josira

The ring is more Vampiric then Blood Frenzy will ever be
No im not over it. Im not over what was said about Blood Frenzy ticking boxes. sobs

Vevvev

Spectral_Force wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

My original thoughts were to make it only effect the vampire abilities and then remove the "you can't be healed by others" since that already exists on multiple vampire abilities.

I'm not sure how much sense it would make to only make it affect Vampire abilities - out of six abilities we have, only Eviscerate, Drain and Blood Mist are capable of dealing damage, and Eviscerate is the only ability that doesn't heal you in the process.

Precisely why I said what I did. For a vampire Eviscerate absolutely should heal you, but you're also forgetting Swarming Scion and Feed which would also benefit from the passive. If you ask for little changes that are not incredibly game changing that'll improve quality of life by a lot you'll have an easier time convincing the developers to add it in than massive sweeping changes that nobody has tested.

Same could be said for adding minor expedition to stage 4's passive for instance. A small change that'd mean a lot.

Kardrik

My main concern with leaving it entirely out of Stage 1 is it leaves Stage 1 as a strict weakness, like it is now.
Increase flame damage taken, no upside to compensate
Increased ability cost, no upside to compensate
("reduced vampire ability cost", reduced from what? That doesn't count if the abilities are unavailable without the "reduction")

Stage 1 needs to have *some* passive benefit to it, and it needs to be just as subtle as the slight increase to flame damage taken and slight addition to regular ability cost.
I still want stage 1 to feel slightly vampiric, so maybe like 3%? So it would go 3%/8%/13%/19% (I say 19% because thats what RotPO is right now)

I get not wanting people to take vamp just for the passives, but the answer to that is not to make Stage 1 strictly a penalty
It has penalties attached already, so its already not going to be "mandatory" for all builds like old Vampire was.
Stage 1 should be allowed to have some passive benefits in addition to its downsides, making stage 1 penalty-only is lame

But overall I like the idea of reducing the outside healing taken as the main downside to being a vampire. It affects group content, but doesn't affect solo.
Stage 1, outside healing reduction taken reduced, increased flame damage, but regenerates health upon dealing damage, all 3 effects are barely noticeable.
Stage 2, previous effects are a bit more noticeable, but not gamechanging, and vampiric abilites are looking a little more tempting
Stage 3, the outside healing taken make you hard to heal, but not impossible to save in dire situations
Stage 4- This one I am a little uncertain about. Do we want it at like 90% or 100%? Do we want to say "Stage 4 makes you completely unusable in any kind of serious group content", or do we want to say "Stage 4 just makes you really, really tough to manage and you better be putting out damage at all times"?

I also think Stage 4 should not last as long as previous stages, that way they have to feed constantly to keep that up
So say Stage 4 lasts like 1 or 2 hours, and 90% less healing taken from outside so its still somewhat useable in group content (with the healing of course), that way to stay Stage 4 and get all those benefits you actually have to be *dedicated* to playing like a Vampire, which is what we're gunning for.
If we can make it so it takes dedication to playing like a Vampire, we can make Stage 4 actually feel strong and vampiric, without completely gimping it for group content, right?
With outside healing reduced by 90%, and taking 18 or 19% of damage given back as health (with the cap), but that lasting only one or two hours so I have to feed all the time, and fire/fighters guild abilities threaten to drop me like a rock... I think I would feel very vampiric indeed.
Also make stage 3 last 3 hours instead of four, so its a gradual effect

I'm also going to add that adding a passive health regen penalty was really lame, where in the same expac Gwendis (She's like stage 1 o r two ) talks to you about getting injured by Talfyg, and she's (just waiting a minute for her bones to mend), when the player Vampire is (Unless stage 3 or 4 and at 35% health or less) *more* vulnerable and easier to hurt than their mortal counterparts, and heals slower to boot!
If we can find a reason to try to get the devs to get rid of this penalty, which doesn't even follow vampire lore in game, pls lets do so. I hate it, with a passion.

I think with the outside healing taken being reduced to eliminated, we can argue that the penalty to passive health regen is unecessary, and not at all very vampiric.
If it was, why do Vampires in the game regenerate faster than mortals, but we have to regenerate slower?

Spectral_Force

Vevvev wrote: »

Precisely why I said what I did. For a vampire Eviscerate absolutely should heal you, but you're also forgetting Swarming Scion and Feed which would also benefit from the passive. If you ask for little changes that are not incredibly game changing that'll improve quality of life by a lot you'll have an easier time convincing the developers to add it in than massive sweeping changes that nobody has tested.

Same could be said for adding minor expedition to stage 4's passive for instance. A small change that'd mean a lot.

Perhaps I misread you. Yes, I can agree on smaller changes being easier to push through, but at the same time larger changes can be more effective for solving the problem at hand while also yielding more elegant results. After all, a single instance of RotPO in your passives will be much cleaner than each of your abilities healing you for a different amount. Granted, you'd need to rebalance Drain's and Blood Mist's damage so they heal you more (or change their function entirely - Vampiric Drain execute when). Perhaps Blood Mist can use only a small bump to damage, as the heals it provides while standing in a group of adds will still be adequate.

I totally dig Minor Expedition for Stage 4, by the way.

Kardrik wrote: »

My main concern with leaving it entirely out of Stage 1 is it leaves Stage 1 as a strict weakness, like it is now.
Increase flame damage taken, no upside to compensate
Increased ability cost, no upside to compensate
("reduced vampire ability cost", reduced from what? That doesn't count if the abilities are unavailable without the "reduction")

Stage 1 needs to have *some* passive benefit to it, and it needs to be just as subtle as the slight increase to flame damage taken and slight addition to regular ability cost.
I still want stage 1 to feel slightly vampiric, so maybe like 3%? So it would go 3%/8%/13%/19% (I say 19% because thats what RotPO is right now)

I get not wanting people to take vamp just for the passives, but the answer to that is not to make Stage 1 strictly a penalty
It has penalties attached already, so its already not going to be "mandatory" for all builds like old Vampire was.
Stage 1 should be allowed to have some passive benefits in addition to its downsides, making stage 1 penalty-only is lame

I think the "upside" at Stage 1 is the opportunity to use Vampire abilities. If the health leech is present at Stage 1, it will essentially become a way for everyone to get 3% of their DPS as health in exchange for 3% less sustain (and other "negligible" drawbacks), and I'm certain many people will end up taking Vampire "just for the passives". Unless of course the health leech only applies to Vampire abilities, which could make it work.

Kardrik wrote: »

Stage 4- This one I am a little uncertain about. Do we want it at like 90% or 100%? Do we want to say "Stage 4 makes you completely unusable in any kind of serious group content", or do we want to say "Stage 4 just makes you really, really tough to manage and you better be putting out damage at all times"?

I'd much rather have it be 100% than 90%. Only receiving 10% of heals is a very tiny amount, and I'd rather Stage 4 vampires were just excluded from the heal auto-targeting entirely.

Kardrik wrote: »

I also think Stage 4 should not last as long as previous stages, that way they have to feed constantly to keep that up
So say Stage 4 lasts like 1 or 2 hours, and 90% less healing taken from outside so its still somewhat useable in group content (with the healing of course), that way to stay Stage 4 and get all those benefits you actually have to be *dedicated* to playing like a Vampire, which is what we're gunning for.
If we can make it so it takes dedication to playing like a Vampire, we can make Stage 4 actually feel strong and vampiric, without completely gimping it for group content, right?
With outside healing reduced by 90%, and taking 18 or 19% of damage given back as health (with the cap), but that lasting only one or two hours so I have to feed all the time, and fire/fighters guild abilities threaten to drop me like a rock... I think I would feel very vampiric indeed.
Also make stage 3 last 3 hours instead of four, so its a gradual effect

I think I suggested progressively shorter stages at some point before, but I can firmly get behind the idea. Remaining at a higher stage will force you to bite necks often, which is always a plus for a Vampire character, and if you somehow "accidentally" reach a higher stage than you need (and you don't have Maras on you or if you don't want to buy the suscpiciously convenient Crown Store vampire fountain), this will shorten your waiting time by a couple of hours.

At the same time, I think you're overvaluing Stage 4 in terms of how many benefits it can viably provide. After all, if Stage 4 becomes too strong, people will end up chugging Corrupted Maras instead of actually biting NPCs. It's a very delicate balance.

Kardrik wrote: »

I'm also going to add that adding a passive health regen penalty was really lame, where in the same expac Gwendis (She's like stage 1 o r two ) talks to you about getting injured by Talfyg, and she's (just waiting a minute for her bones to mend), when the player Vampire is (Unless stage 3 or 4 and at 35% health or less) *more* vulnerable and easier to hurt than their mortal counterparts, and heals slower to boot!
If we can find a reason to try to get the devs to get rid of this penalty, which doesn't even follow vampire lore in game, pls lets do so. I hate it, with a passion.

I think with the outside healing taken being reduced to eliminated, we can argue that the penalty to passive health regen is unecessary, and not at all very vampiric.
If it was, why do Vampires in the game regenerate faster than mortals, but we have to regenerate slower?

I feel ya, vampires are very inconsistent in terms of how they function, and the "different strain" apologia is just a band-aid solution for a glaring problem. Though I must say I got quite used to the reduced health regen, aside from the -100% at Stage 4 which is still quite annoying. I think it makes sense that Vampires have a reduced regeneration ability, as long as they are able to heal faster than mortals by damaging their enemies. Since we don't have a Blood bar like in VtMB/Vampyr/half the Vampire mods for mainline games and can't get a "Bloodheal" ability of any kind, the RotPO effect will have to suffice.

Kardrik

Spectral_Force wrote: »

Kardrik wrote: »

My main concern with leaving it entirely out of Stage 1 is it leaves Stage 1 as a strict weakness, like it is now.
Increase flame damage taken, no upside to compensate
Increased ability cost, no upside to compensate
("reduced vampire ability cost", reduced from what? That doesn't count if the abilities are unavailable without the "reduction")

Stage 1 needs to have *some* passive benefit to it, and it needs to be just as subtle as the slight increase to flame damage taken and slight addition to regular ability cost.
I still want stage 1 to feel slightly vampiric, so maybe like 3%? So it would go 3%/8%/13%/19% (I say 19% because thats what RotPO is right now)

I get not wanting people to take vamp just for the passives, but the answer to that is not to make Stage 1 strictly a penalty
It has penalties attached already, so its already not going to be "mandatory" for all builds like old Vampire was.
Stage 1 should be allowed to have some passive benefits in addition to its downsides, making stage 1 penalty-only is lame

I think the "upside" at Stage 1 is the opportunity to use Vampire abilities. If the health leech is present at Stage 1, it will essentially become a way for everyone to get 3% of their DPS as health in exchange for 3% less sustain (and other "negligible" drawbacks), and I'm certain many people will end up taking Vampire "just for the passives". Unless of course the health leech only applies to Vampire abilities, which could make it work.

Lame upside when all the vampire abilities are trash.

I don't see why "people taking it for the passives" is a problem so much if its not, like last time, where almost all were taking it for the passives.
A passive increase to sustain is a very, very attractive option for people that play all sorts of content.
A passive self heal is not, since its only really useful when you don't have a good healer around. And if you're sacrificing sustain for something your healer can already do for you? That's gonna make the Vet Trials ppl you're running with unhappy with you.
Especially with an outside healing received reduction as well.

A lot fewer people will take it "just for the passives" if its a self heal, esp with the downsides it comes with. It won't be anywhere near the numbers before the rework.

I think "Many people" taking vampire for passives is acceptable, but "most" is not.
More vamps in PVP mean more targets for my FG and fire abilities

I despise the idea that you need to be stage 2+ to get *any* sort of benefit from Vampirism