Forgotten World / Game Design: Gold Coast and Hews Bane

Wing

Im disappointed that the whole thieving / assassinating and shift in level deign to accommodate it was just abandoned after its introduction. especially considering as its one of the iconic pillars of TES games.

and yet as time has gone on ZOS seems to have forgotten or abandoned alot of the more interesting free form content that gave us player agency in how to solve it, moving more in favor of straight combat playthrough one and done world design.

oh whats that? we have a new expansion?
-2 public dungeons with a quest that leads you through them, an optional boss for 1 skill point, a skyshard within, and some form of 10/10 collectable drop
-6 delves, with a single small quest attached, and a skyshard within
-6 world bosses
-some form of new (anchor, dragon, geyser, harrowstorm) world gimmick

/copy paste, change the paint.


and yet, thieves guild and dark brotherhood had very unique gameplay options introduced that were just abandoned/ gameplay design that if it had been refined and continually updated could have been one of the better gameplay options available in ESO, or at the very least would have added another slightly more interesting gameplay pillar.

_______________________________

heists and dark brotherhood contracts

these were INCREDIBLY boring and repetitive BUT had a an amazing gem of an idea behind them that was not taken to fruition.
the problems?:
-hyper narrow and overly punishing gameplay restrictions (timers, dont get seen, dont kill, only get seen a couple times, etc, etc.)
-the boring locations (generic caves using the same models and textures as every other cave in the game)

the latter is sad because the opening thieves guild mission takes place on a small island that is both interesting from an artistic and setting point of view as well as interesting game wise as you have quite a bit of area to creep around in and plan your moves.

the timers are bad because of the whole concept of a thief / assassin in the first place, why cant i spend an hour in here and be a ghost if i want? the timers were such a bad addition to them that it boggles the mind.

dont get seen / kill anyone, i get it, and thats an option that should be supported, another should have been to kill everyone to both support playstyles and harken back to several thieves guild members throughout mainline TES games that were all about killing everyone, quest progress should have read something like:

-kill target
-[optional] dont be detected *ghost*
-[optional] dont kill anyone *low chaos*
-[optional] kill everyone *high chaos*

*dishonored references*

this gives anyone doing these kinds of quests at any time agency over how they chose to complete the quest, that combined with better more free roam locations (see the first thieves guild mission were your sent to an island) gives us further agency in how we chose to move around the environment, you know, classic TES stuff.

_________________________________

Anvil and Kvatch castle (and to a lesser extent the cities themselves) as well as Hews Bane

man oh man, it was sad to see this design get gutted and tossed aside. if anyone has not been to the castles in a while go back and check em out.

the castles had pretty sprawling layouts, were full of NPC's, both guards and various staff, were full of containers to loot, had hidden passages and the "hide in here" containers. they are a blast to creep through and one of the only places in ESO that you can do some classic stealth and thieving / assassinating.

the towns themselves were also designed with this in mind, hews was a maze of sneaky assassins creed style roofs, alley ways, catwalks, main streets, etc. and all three of the main locations were packed with NPC's of various kinds, some walking around, guards on patrol, people milling about, beggars begging, other thieves creeping around. once again giving you agency in watching people move about and figuring out paths to steal / assassinate your way through the area.



^^^^
this design, would NEVER bee seen again in ESO, it was abandoned nearly completely.

it was some of the best conceptually and if innovated on and improved would not only be amazing to play but would also be something you cannot easily find in another MMO, ESO's thieves guild and dark brotherhood as well as the associated systems in general are pretty unique in the MMO space and often toted by reviewers that come from other games were being a thief or assassin is simply not possible.

its a tragedy these systems were not continued and improved upon.

@ZOS_RichLambert

Integral1900

I agree it was a shame that at least some lessons weren’t taken from that, on the other hand I can see why they didn’t. Seems a lot of players want the quick reward, the quick story. In and done until the next chapter.

WeerW3ir

It is the well decided "law" since wrothgar. that each chapter must have the same as the basic zones have. "adventure zone" they called it. obviously the name is also dropped as well some of the original zones.
6 dungeon, 6 boss, 10 ws atleast, 2-3 city even if that mean they have to make non existant one if there is more (see summerset. 2 city got shafted) 2 public and 6 local event and least 6 questhub with around 40 local quest.

about the quests. they want each zone to be unique on their own and soimehow indeed they missed lots of opportunities to place hiding shenenigans in the towns. hiding places and spots.
as you can see now they are solving it with 3 daily rotating quest in each zone. but that is not good enough. its nothing new. add new. add something special.
like if truly the end comes then add a resistance base. and help the resistance by doing quests. kill an enemy leader or something like that.

TelvanniWizard

Yoou are totally right! Also, in those two dlc´s we finally had the possibility of navigating some true cities, not the tiny hamlets that pass as capitals in the main zones.

Mythreindeer

Less appeal to the masses means less participation in that content means less opportunity for crown store sales.

Parasaurolophus

Many have complained that both of these DLC`s are only available for nightblade playthroughs. But this is far from the case. I went through both of these add-ons, as well as all the daily quests on my stamsorc, using invisibility potions and special sets.But it apparently turned out to be too difficult for most in this game to use potions, sets and proceed with caution. The content being sold, as we can see, should be completed without doing anything. Just run from marker to marker. But that's for another topic.

Daemons_Bane

BrownChicken wrote: »

Many have complained that both of these add-ons are only available for nightblade playthroughs. But this is far from the case. I went through both of these add-ons, as well as all the daily quests on my stamsorc, using invisibility potions and special sets.But it apparently turned out to be too difficult for most in this game to use potions, sets and proceed with caution. The content being sold, as we can see, should be completed without doing anything. Just run from marker to marker. But that's for another topic.

Confused me there for a moment, calling it addons

Starlock

Thanks for posting this, @Wing

The biggest disappointment for me when they announced adherence to yearlong story arcs was the recognition that we would probably never see something truly interesting like TG/DB again. Instead, the game was going to become even more formulaic and predictable. While that isn't necessarily a bad thing - doing what works is sensible - it also risks stagnation. The game has hit that point.

Zulera301

On the plus side though, the motifs from the dailies in Kvatch are worth a fortune now.

Another abandoned design though are the thief caches. Marked tiles, walls, even wooden posts could have them. without an add-on like HarvestMap you just had to have a really keen eye to even notice them.

Also, while it was incredibly frustrating at times (looking at you Bahraha's Gloom Skyshard), half the fun of HB/GC were the hidden locations that weren't shown on the map. It wasn't so bad with the DB Sacraments because the timer didn't start until you had made the kill, so I got to acquaint myself with most of the layout and poke around.

I do like that they add world events to smaller zones now, because not being able to reliably get jewelry for some sets (I doubt I need to name zones here even) is a pain in the butt because it comes down to RNG that cannot reliably be farmed.

That said, special shout-out to Craglorn as well for basically being one big "public dungeon" zone. I'd love to see more content like that where you can get some buddies and smash through it, or brave it on your own if you think you can solo the content.

But alas. At least with the predictable formulas I'll be able to know what I'll be doing and when. /Shrug

Daemons_Bane

Zulera301 wrote: »

Another abandoned design though are the thief caches. Marked tiles, walls, even wooden posts could have them. without an add-on like HarvestMap you just had to have a really keen eye to even notice them.

Keen eye??? They shine purple..

Mettaricana

I imagine similar once this year of dagon starts up i feel like scrykng and excavate will no longer see new leads or mythics and will just kinda fade into the background like brotherhood and theives save for a small passive we may or may not use woe, and lock cracking..

tsaescishoeshiner

Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood dailies also didn't have good repeatable rewards. Wrothgar dailies still have value, but those two don't. I actually loved some of the environments in the daily missions, especially the NPCs and hidden passages.

Some of the limitations were frustrating (not being able to fully reset Dark Brotherhood dailies if you mess up), but some, like trying not to be seen, were totally the point

Abah's Landing was clearly made with thieves in mind—it's so fun to sneak around in and pickpocket. I know they do justice system passes on new cities, but other cities don't seem to have that same feel. I was really hoping Rimmen would

I wish they would make another Thieves Guild location so that they could add more maps to it and rework the rewards. I don't see them adding new maps without making new overall content. But people also want new endgame content, so they'd have to choose what to prioritize. I'd certainly 100% take it over new delves and public dungeons tbh

Zulera301

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Zulera301 wrote: »

Another abandoned design though are the thief caches. Marked tiles, walls, even wooden posts could have them. without an add-on like HarvestMap you just had to have a really keen eye to even notice them.

Keen eye??? They shine purple..

No, those are thieves troves. These "hidden caches" are items literally deposited right into floor tiles or the walls of buildings. I believe the only places to actually find them is Abah's Landing, Anvil, and Kvatch.

Moloch1514

Weren't these zones done by Konkle and the original team that left around the time the game went for easy $$$ on consoles and cash shops (which we were promised this game would never need by 2013 leadership)? Everything changed (remember OG Craglorn?) once the original team departed.

Daemons_Bane

Zulera301 wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Zulera301 wrote: »

Another abandoned design though are the thief caches. Marked tiles, walls, even wooden posts could have them. without an add-on like HarvestMap you just had to have a really keen eye to even notice them.

Keen eye??? They shine purple..

No, those are thieves troves. These "hidden caches" are items literally deposited right into floor tiles or the walls of buildings. I believe the only places to actually find them is Abah's Landing, Anvil, and Kvatch.

My bad

Starlock

Zulera301 wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Zulera301 wrote: »

Another abandoned design though are the thief caches. Marked tiles, walls, even wooden posts could have them. without an add-on like HarvestMap you just had to have a really keen eye to even notice them.

Keen eye??? They shine purple..

No, those are thieves troves. These "hidden caches" are items literally deposited right into floor tiles or the walls of buildings. I believe the only places to actually find them is Abah's Landing, Anvil, and Kvatch.

So... I've played this game a lot, and those DLCs a fair bit. I straight up had no idea this was a thing. That's how poorly-marked they are. And I tend to do my storytelling in first person, which provides a better perspective for noticing details.

James-Wayne

I'm hoping Oblivion chapter shakes things up a bit because I agree its been very copy and paste (although still loved the chapters) but it does need something different done.

WaywardArgonian

I think part of the issue is the year-long themes that dictate the game updates. Once people figure out where the next chapter will take place, there's no real mystery or surprise to any of it anymore, and it feels stale/formulaic even if some of that content ends up being fantastic.

That sense of surprise we had before added to the excitement, and it felt like a lot more things were possible. I suppose it is logical that ZOS used the first few years of ESO to experiment with different types of content to see what would stick. We've had 4-man adventure zones, time-gated quests, a PVP-themed DLC. Now it's just 4 dungeons, a chapter and a DLC zone, all with pretty much the same structure in terms of public dungeons and world group events. Again, some of that stuff ends up being great, but I'd still like to be surprised from time to time by fresh ideas. ZOS finally adding another solo trial to the game was a step in the right direction in that regard.

I'll also say that I hope that ZOS won't be perpetually tied to the city design of old games. Compare Abah's Landing to Solitude and it's obvious to see what ZOS can do when they allow themselves to design a city from scratch. I'd love to see that amount of creativity coming back going forward.

ThreeXB

I agree 100% , I have same issues with Morrowind expansion. TES 3 Morrowind was my all time favorite single player rpg and was hoping for so much more to the expansion....way more overland quests, joining a great house, etc. TES 3 was the most in depth game of series and everything after was dumbed down farther and farther... number of skill lines, spell crafting, flying and levitation, amount of gear equipped, ton of summons spells. Just graphics got better in my opinion as newer games came out.

LalMirchi

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

I think part of the issue is the year-long themes that dictate the game updates. Once people figure out where the next chapter will take place, there's no real mystery or surprise to any of it anymore, and it feels stale/formulaic even if some of that content ends up being fantastic.

That sense of surprise we had before added to the excitement, and it felt like a lot more things were possible. I suppose it is logical that ZOS used the first few years of ESO to experiment with different types of content to see what would stick. We've had 4-man adventure zones, time-gated quests, a PVP-themed DLC. Now it's just 4 dungeons, a chapter and a DLC zone, all with pretty much the same structure in terms of public dungeons and world group events. Again, some of that stuff ends up being great, but I'd still like to be surprised from time to time by fresh ideas. ZOS finally adding another solo trial to the game was a step in the right direction in that regard.

I'll also say that I hope that ZOS won't be perpetually tied to the city design of old games. Compare Abah's Landing to Solitude and it's obvious to see what ZOS can do when they allow themselves to design a city from scratch. I'd love to see that amount of creativity coming back going forward.

Excellent analysis, I think the the Thieves Guild questline was really refreshing and would hope for a few more innovative questlines like this.

phantasmalD

It'd be cool if new chapter-specific heists/sacraments were added to new chapters that you could pick up in the Thieves' Hideout if you had the TG/DB DLC. Even if it's not a repetable daily, just a one-time deal.

All the old guilds could use new content tbh, like the Fighter's and Mage's Guild as well. I mean what's the point of placing these guilds in every new chapter if they never offer anything new and their content is tied to the base game?

Faulgor

That's because those updates were developed when the game was still P2P.
With the change to B2P, the development was downsized, requiring a shift to formulaic content and an increased focus on the Cash Shop instead.

Finedaible

Yeah it is a shame, they really should have elaborated on Heists and Sacraments. I don't mind the existing challenges but the locations are so few and bland compared to the glorious maps they created for the questline, and the rewards are not... rewarding. If the Heists/Sacraments were more interesting, they could have thrown some leads for Antiquities into them too but being the derelicts they are now I wouldn't be interested in going back to farm that.

Daemons_Bane

ThreeXB wrote: »

I agree 100% , I have same issues with Morrowind expansion. TES 3 Morrowind was my all time favorite single player rpg and was hoping for so much more to the expansion....way more overland quests, joining a great house, etc. TES 3 was the most in depth game of series and everything after was dumbed down farther and farther... number of skill lines, spell crafting, flying and levitation, amount of gear equipped, ton of summons spells. Just graphics got better in my opinion as newer games came out.

You can never get the same depth from a mmo, as you can from a single player game

Wing

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

You can never get the same depth from a mmo, as you can from a single player game

agreed.

however the thing morrowind had that i believe made it the best was in fact player agency everything aside, same with new vegas when you really think about it.

"With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created."

this boils down to a few points:
-player agency in action, being able to play an old wise caster, an orc berserker, or a stealthy assassin. being able to approach an objective from that point of view and not have the quest force the orc berserker to be a stealthy assassin or fail.

-tasks supporting multiple completion states in respect of player choice, we had a tiny hint of this in the persuasion and intimidate skills. this is actually not that hard. (i will post an example below.)

-the world and future tasks acknowledging our chosen completion method or state. a choice for the sake of choice means nothing if nothing changes and the world does not reflect or acknowledge it. ( ESO was actually built to do this with instanced areas changing without load screens *Silsailen as an example*)


an example quest:

Rugda the orc is a trader and has a problem with Hurst the established local trader, hes gouging him on prices. he wants us to "deal with him"

we can
-kill him. (classic ESO combat OR blade of woe)
-intimidate him, or if we had previously saved town had an option to bring that up tell him to knock it off. (dialogue option)
-rob a chest in his store of the contents and give it to Rugda. (thieving / legerdemain)
-etc

any of these solve the quest.

now, importantly, later on we get an unrelated quest in another area. we need a particular item that a local merchant was known to have, it was Hurst, but:

-we killed him, Rugda knows of no such item and suggests looking in his home.
-we talked Hurst down, he has the item and will only part with it for a tidy sum of gold, still mad we got in his business.
-we previously robbed him, we can search his home and steal it, or ask him about it and pay him for it at neutral dispostion.


etc.
etc.

its just doing constant small / large things like this that reflect player choice make all the difference and dont require THAT much work, options to bring up various things like or ranks in guilds to bypass quest requirements as well go a long way into making everything feel connected and rewarding.

the options i listed all use built in mechanics within ESO to just give outcome options and multiple completion states, and adding options in other quest based on previous completion states is also not hard, but VERY rewarding when encountered.

Wing

also i think considering the fact that we tend to get a couple small towns or settlements in these expansions that essentially amount to a quest location and dont have further impact, that based on our choices having it be a normal friendly town, or to the extreme of being burnt down and abandoned would be fun and acceptable.
having it acknowledged later:
"oh this town was destroyed so during this mission there are a bunch of hostiles and no friendly NPC's because that town does not exist to send support"
would be a nice throwback.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

That would certainly explain why Hew's Bane despite being what the second DLC? still seems to be higher quality then the recent ones.

Daemons_Bane

Wing wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

You can never get the same depth from a mmo, as you can from a single player game

agreed.

however the thing morrowind had that i believe made it the best was in fact player agency everything aside, same with new vegas when you really think about it.

"With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created."

this boils down to a few points:
-player agency in action, being able to play an old wise caster, an orc berserker, or a stealthy assassin. being able to approach an objective from that point of view and not have the quest force the orc berserker to be a stealthy assassin or fail.

-tasks supporting multiple completion states in respect of player choice, we had a tiny hint of this in the persuasion and intimidate skills. this is actually not that hard. (i will post an example below.)

-the world and future tasks acknowledging our chosen completion method or state. a choice for the sake of choice means nothing if nothing changes and the world does not reflect or acknowledge it. ( ESO was actually built to do this with instanced areas changing without load screens *Silsailen as an example*)


an example quest:

Rugda the orc is a trader and has a problem with Hurst the established local trader, hes gouging him on prices. he wants us to "deal with him"

we can
-kill him. (classic ESO combat OR blade of woe)
-intimidate him, or if we had previously saved town had an option to bring that up tell him to knock it off. (dialogue option)
-rob a chest in his store of the contents and give it to Rugda. (thieving / legerdemain)
-etc

any of these solve the quest.

now, importantly, later on we get an unrelated quest in another area. we need a particular item that a local merchant was known to have, it was Hurst, but:

-we killed him, Rugda knows of no such item and suggests looking in his home.
-we talked Hurst down, he has the item and will only part with it for a tidy sum of gold, still mad we got in his business.
-we previously robbed him, we can search his home and steal it, or ask him about it and pay him for it at neutral dispostion.


etc.
etc.

its just doing constant small / large things like this that reflect player choice make all the difference and dont require THAT much work, options to bring up various things like or ranks in guilds to bypass quest requirements as well go a long way into making everything feel connected and rewarding.

the options i listed all use built in mechanics within ESO to just give outcome options and multiple completion states, and adding options in other quest based on previous completion states is also not hard, but VERY rewarding when encountered.

Once again, it's the same answer.. that level of involvement, is not made for mmos.. yes, we would love to be whomever we want, but that would be much too big a thing to make, when there are thousands of players involved

Wing

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

That would certainly explain why Hew's Bane despite being what the second DLC? still seems to be higher quality then the recent ones.

i think they had more time too, for instance, Wrothgar as a zone and in content nears expansion level, but is just a DLC. this was the first "DLC" they worked on post upper crag and came out just after IC.

in fact i think IC would have been better received if it had come out AFTER Wrothgar, they came out like a month apart after a 6 month content drought due to console launch. so the first DLC was PvE'rs getting eaten alive by PvP'rs and had much harsher Tel'Var stone loss at the time (80-90 %iirc)

the drought, and Harsh PvP focus led to IC being hated (and now free) and also led to it being the first and last pvp based DLC EVER in ESO.

kind of sad in hindsight.

volkeswagon

Hated the timers too

YandereGirlfriend

I have never even done the TG/DB in ESO but I still very much agree with you!

The design of Hew's Bane is the best in the game and it isn't even close. I would easily trade having only one city created per year if it meant that they would be at that level of quality.