Why I won't do random vet dungeons anymore, aka "when art design fails"

fred4

Here is an example from today: Frostvault. The rest of the group appears to be Russian, a language I don't speak, possibly off on Discord, but not experienced in this dungeon either. I once did it on normal, but I can't remember the mechanics or was unable to learn them on normal, as per usual. Those laser beams, is there any way to tell in advance which side they're going to break? If there is, it's subtle. We die lots of times, but eventually get through. In the next fight, text warns me that "the boss chills the air". What am I supposed to do with that information? There is no air defense skill I'm aware of in this game. Might Shuffle mitigate the AOE damage? Is this something that can kill you? I have no idea until I get CCd and one shot.

It's no fun when you seemingly die at random and you have no idea why. I'll be honest, I'm a farmer. I don't delight in new dungeons, I don't study them when they come out, I just want the sets, the Undaunted keys and the transmute crystals. Then I PvP again. At the same time normal is usually far too easy. It would be nice to do some of them on vet. Please don't tell me the solution to this dungeon, though. That's not the point. The point is that I can't / won't study up on every possible vet dungeon in advance of doing a random one. A minor point is the wide range of difficulty when you have all the DLC. My main gripe, however, is the hit and miss art design.

vMA was infamous for this, when it first came out. Everything was pretty logical up to and including the ice stage. Spinning blades on the floor? It's clear you have to avoid those. Electrified water? Same thing. Even the ice stage, it's logical that you might freeze to death and drown. Then comes the spider stage and nothing makes sense. Lights that drive spiderlings away? Even if there is some vague connection to creepy things in the dark, this arena is well lit nor is that how spiders necessarily behave when I turn the light on in my bathroom. Poison (from hoarvors) destroys spider webs? Err, no it doesn't. Not particularly. Mechanical action might destroy spider webs, but not some liquid. After that comes the Argonian behemoth, whose most deadly attack is that he screams. I kid you not. He screems and that is when you get one shot. There is admittedly precedent for this elsewhere in the game, but nowhere is it as deadly (so you don't notice) and as a piece of art design it is IMO a total fail.

ZOS subsequently added subtitles in the above vMA stages. Frostvault also has them. Were they there from the beginning? I don't know. ZOS have addressed this in some dungeons, such as Scalecaller, by having an NPC explain the mechanics. I quite like that. That and the subtitles shows they're clearly aware of these issues and are trying to come up with solutions. On the other hand, nothing IMO beats a solution where the art design and physics make sense in the first place. What do you think?

josiahva

The key to the laser fight is not to choose a direction until the 2nd laser shows you. IE: first laser passes by...then you stand and wait, and see which direction the 2nd laser dictates...then just follow that same direction for the rest of the lasers. In a pinch, you can roll dodge THROUGH the boss shield to get to the other side if you are desperate. As far as the goblin witch fight, the only thing that concerns the DPS is to interrupt the boss channel(will kill you quick if you dont) and block the freezing aoe(at least I think so...I always block it anyway). As far as learning DLC dungeon fights in general....there is no way to really learn them except by doing them more often...the more you do them the better you get and the more tricks you learn. Your best bet is to farm vet DLC dungeons when they drop and everyone is inexperienced so you learn as you go.

kargen27

" The point is that I can't / won't study up on every possible vet dungeon in advance of doing a random one. A minor point is the wide range of difficulty when you have all the DLC. My main gripe, however, is the hit and miss art design."

Meaning this isn't a game issue. Like when a PvE player goes to Cyrodiil and keeps getting killed but doesn't want to take the time to properly gear and learn some PvP tactics. Not the games fault.

For me and some guild mates going into new dungeons on vet mode and trying to figure them out is fun. We can usually after many deaths figure it out. The few times we are unable to figure out a mechanic we reluctantly look outside our group for the answer.
The problem some people have is they watch videos of groups that have the DPS to ignore most if not all the mechanics. They then try to replicate what they saw and fail without understanding why.

Kiralyn2000

Wouldn't this be "combat design", not "art design"? The combat messages & boss telegraphs (and death messages/combat log) aren't adequate to make the mechanics understandable?

(I'd say Art Design if it were something like "they gave the boss a nice red circle to telegraph his Super Nuke attack... but then the art team lit the room in red and covered the floor in red plants, so I can't see the damn thing!")




...but yeah, the whole "if you want to run dungeons, you should study up on the boss fights using guides" thing has always bugged me about MMOs. We're here to play a game, not do homework.

PizzaCat82

"Entering vet random dungeon"

Click New tab, google "Walkthrough Dungeon Name ESO"
Get mechanics for every boss and just skim through them as needed.

Try to convince 3 other people in group to follow mechanics.

Keep rotating group members until one is willing to follow mechanics.

Defeat bosses.

Jeremy

fred4 wrote: »

Here is an example from today: Frostvault. The rest of the group appears to be Russian, a language I don't speak, possibly off on Discord, but not experienced in this dungeon either. I once did it on normal, but I can't remember the mechanics or was unable to learn them on normal, as per usual. Those laser beams, is there any way to tell in advance which side they're going to break? If there is, it's subtle. We die lots of times, but eventually get through. In the next fight, text warns me that "the boss chills the air". What am I supposed to do with that information? There is no air defense skill I'm aware of in this game. Might Shuffle mitigate the AOE damage? Is this something that can kill you? I have no idea until I get CCd and one shot.

I totally agree with you. Frostvault is the epitome of horrid dungeon design.

Fennwitty

With the lasers yes, you can 'see' which side is the start and which the end. The beams come from small machines in the wall, the beam originates without a 'puffy' effect. Where the beam hits a wall, it has a puffy 'hitting something' look.

You have to look at one of the walls the beam's acting on. If it's the small emitter head, then you know it comes from that direction. If you see the little puff, you know it's coming from the other direction.

The example lasers right before you face the boss illustrate how they work pretty well. Many people don't stop to look at the beams and how they work, they just rush to get around them to the next boss.

zvavi

Fennwitty wrote: »

With the lasers yes, you can 'see' which side is the start and which the end. The beams come from small machines in the wall, the beam originates without a 'puffy' effect. Where the beam hits a wall, it has a puffy 'hitting something' look.

You have to look at one of the walls the beam's acting on. If it's the small emitter head, then you know it comes from that direction. If you see the little puff, you know it's coming from the other direction.

The example lasers right before you face the boss illustrate how they work pretty well. Many people don't stop to look at the beams and how they work, they just rush to get around them to the next boss.

It doesn't help that the game is so bugged that sometimes you can pass through them without dying, it made people believe it is possible to jump over them, and when they die trying they "just didn't jump right". Generally frostvault took the title of the most bugged dungeon in the game from wayrest sewers when it was released. They even removed the avalanche spawn animation because they broke the boss and couldn't fix it.

DT-ARR

One of the biggest problems of the game in regards to group content is accessibility. Simply telling people to join a better guild is nothing but a cop out.

Maybe its different on PC but finding an active guild on ps4 willing to carry less experienced players through vet content to learn mechanics... in my experience (and only speaking for myself) can be a challenge.

Couple that with 30+ minute long queues for random dungeons where people falsely apply for roles which they don’t qualify simply to get in faster...recipe for wasted time and nobody benefiting at all.

ZOS claims all the time the desire to raise the floor. If thats the case i vote to implement a solo “practice” mode with no loot drops if for no other reason than to familiarize newer players with the mechanics. It would result in less wasted effort for everyone in terms of carrying the inexperienced - those newer players could now get the exposure on their own time.

It would also probably embolden more people to attempt the content given an increased comfort level with knowing what to expect. And less fear of being kicked from groups / ridiculed by feckless elites / trolls.

Side note - fixing servers would help as well. Ish is a joke.

Grega

DT-ARR wrote: »

One of the biggest problems of the game in regards to group content is accessibility. Simply telling people to join a better guild is nothing but a cop out.

Maybe its different on PC but finding an active guild on ps4 willing to carry less experienced players through vet content to learn mechanics... in my experience (and only speaking for myself) can be a challenge.

Couple that with 30+ minute long queues for random dungeons where people falsely apply for roles which they don’t qualify simply to get in faster...recipe for wasted time and nobody benefiting at all.

ZOS claims all the time the desire to raise the floor. If thats the case i vote to implement a solo “practice” mode with no loot drops if for no other reason than to familiarize newer players with the mechanics. It would result in less wasted effort for everyone in terms of carrying the inexperienced - those newer players could now get the exposure on their own time.

It would also probably embolden more people to attempt the content given an increased comfort level with knowing what to expect. And less fear of being kicked from groups / ridiculed by feckless elites / trolls.

Side note - fixing servers would help as well. Ish is a joke.

You don’t have to be carried to learn. Carried is for those go just want it done for no work.


If you want to learn, you go in with other people who want to learn. You try and fail. Repeatedly. For hours, days or weeks. Eventually y’all get it done.

For many...that’s not fun. And they don’t want to play anymore cause it’s not fun. Then stay on normal and buy monster sets from vendor in cyro. Simple. 🤷‍♂️.

Random vet dungeons are like playing lottery. And I personally, don’t like playing lottery.

Tsar_Gekkou

I'll never torture myself with random vets. I already get Frostvault most of the time I queue for random normals. I'm not trying to do those on vet unless i'm with a friend or guildmate who also knows what they're doing.

Eedat

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Wouldn't this be "combat design", not "art design"? The combat messages & boss telegraphs (and death messages/combat log) aren't adequate to make the mechanics understandable?

(I'd say Art Design if it were something like "they gave the boss a nice red circle to telegraph his Super Nuke attack... but then the art team lit the room in red and covered the floor in red plants, so I can't see the damn thing!")




...but yeah, the whole "if you want to run dungeons, you should study up on the boss fights using guides" thing has always bugged me about MMOs. We're here to play a game, not do homework.

Then just do normal dungeons tbh. Vet dungeons are supposed to be a challenge. Not everything in a game should be able to be cleared no problem by just winging it. If you dont want to prepare for a challenge, you're going to have issues. I dont think I've played an MMO where it explains every mechanic to you because that would be boring af

MerguezMan

I came to the same conclusion by doing daily random normal dungeons.

Sometimes I'm dropped into an ongoing DLC dungeon that I did once or twice and don't remember mechanics, the group has already gone past the "learning" part of it ... at that point I just hope teammates know what to do...

NEMESIS_97

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Wouldn't this be "combat design", not "art design"? The combat messages & boss telegraphs (and death messages/combat log) aren't adequate to make the mechanics understandable?

(I'd say Art Design if it were something like "they gave the boss a nice red circle to telegraph his Super Nuke attack... but then the art team lit the room in red and covered the floor in red plants, so I can't see the damn thing!")




...but yeah, the whole "if you want to run dungeons, you should study up on the boss fights using guides" thing has always bugged me about MMOs. We're here to play a game, not do homework.

Its homework...you can play lego without homeworks

Veles

Very strange logic. I do not know mechanics, I don’t understand what’s going on, I launched content that I don’t understand, I didn’t understand and am not going to understand it, so the game is bad.

If you are not ready for veteran random in that list available to you, then do not start it.

According to the description, there is a suspicion that you are basically not ready for veteran content. I really want to see build you used, if you are a farmer. Respect for those guys from Frostvault who didn't kick you right away, but carried you like a ballast to the end of the dungeon.

And with all this, you go to the forum with your complaints. You will not find support here, only disapproval.

Yes, among available vet random there are dlc dungeons. This is not a normal difficulty, if you run vet random, then you should be ready for anything. Adequate people if they are not ready for something, then they do not go there, or at least prepare in advance.

LashanW

Only dungeon that comes to my mind as a visual design failure is Fang Lair (even then it's only the last boss).

Ghost walls in Fang Lair last boss fight is a visual design failure imo. The ghosts are highly transparent, have poorly telegraphed edges and most importantly, are light blue/green in color. Compare that to the floor, it's light grey but much brighter in the middle. Group is usually near the middle of the arena (so that they have time to react to random ghost walls) but it's very difficult to see the ghosts when they are in the middle.

This is bad design.

Compare Fang Lair ghost walls to Depths of Malatar auroran walls, pretty much same concept (one shotted if wall is touched). But Depths of Malatar is much better designed in terms of visuals. Floor is grey (even darker in execute stage) and the auroran walls are bright yellow. Good contrast. Auroran walls also have a very bright (full opaque) line indicating their presence.

This is much better design.

maxetro

Frostvault is just trash dungeon with terrible game design. I tried laser boss many times, but with no success. Now if random gets me there, I just leave immediately or right after second boss.

thorwyn

"I tried it and failed. Must be bad design."

Gamers in 2020.

Nairinhe

Right, of course, vet with randoms is the most proper way to get familiar with mechanics of a DLC dungeon .
(No)

zaria

fred4 wrote: »

Here is an example from today: Frostvault. The rest of the group appears to be Russian, a language I don't speak, possibly off on Discord, but not experienced in this dungeon either. I once did it on normal, but I can't remember the mechanics or was unable to learn them on normal, as per usual. Those laser beams, is there any way to tell in advance which side they're going to break? If there is, it's subtle. We die lots of times, but eventually get through. In the next fight, text warns me that "the boss chills the air". What am I supposed to do with that information? There is no air defense skill I'm aware of in this game. Might Shuffle mitigate the AOE damage? Is this something that can kill you? I have no idea until I get CCd and one shot.

It's no fun when you seemingly die at random and you have no idea why. I'll be honest, I'm a farmer. I don't delight in new dungeons, I don't study them when they come out, I just want the sets, the Undaunted keys and the transmute crystals. Then I PvP again. At the same time normal is usually far too easy. It would be nice to do some of them on vet. Please don't tell me the solution to this dungeon, though. That's not the point. The point is that I can't / won't study up on every possible vet dungeon in advance of doing a random one. A minor point is the wide range of difficulty when you have all the DLC. My main gripe, however, is the hit and miss art design.

vMA was infamous for this, when it first came out. Everything was pretty logical up to and including the ice stage. Spinning blades on the floor? It's clear you have to avoid those. Electrified water? Same thing. Even the ice stage, it's logical that you might freeze to death and drown. Then comes the spider stage and nothing makes sense. Lights that drive spiderlings away? Even if there is some vague connection to creepy things in the dark, this arena is well lit nor is that how spiders necessarily behave when I turn the light on in my bathroom. Poison (from hoarvors) destroys spider webs? Err, no it doesn't. Not particularly. Mechanical action might destroy spider webs, but not some liquid. After that comes the Argonian behemoth, whose most deadly attack is that he screams. I kid you not. He screems and that is when you get one shot. There is admittedly precedent for this elsewhere in the game, but nowhere is it as deadly (so you don't notice) and as a piece of art design it is IMO a total fail.

ZOS subsequently added subtitles in the above vMA stages. Frostvault also has them. Were they there from the beginning? I don't know. ZOS have addressed this in some dungeons, such as Scalecaller, by having an NPC explain the mechanics. I quite like that. That and the subtitles shows they're clearly aware of these issues and are trying to come up with solutions. On the other hand, nothing IMO beats a solution where the art design and physics make sense in the first place. What do you think?

My main issue with the frost vault lasers is how hard it is to see who end is the laser and who is the beam hitting the wall.
Had the lasers been larger and not had an light around them like then the beam hit the wall it would be much easier.

It still be an very hard fight but you would not have to study the beam while trying to hide from another you figured out.
i say some other mechanics are harder to figure out.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

OP, I think your decision not to do any more random vet dungeons with a random group is the right one. I make the same choice, but for entirely different reasons. The skill, or lack of skill, from players in a random pick-up group in vet mode varies wildly. Most of the time you will have a hard time getting a group that will even have a chance at clearing a DLC dungeon. I can enjoy a random group, and a random vet, but asking for both at the same time is more trouble than fun.

mobicera

I like frostvault...
(Though I will admit it might be the buggiest dungeon out there)
I really enjoy going into 4 person vdlc content completely blind with 3 others also completely blind then activating hard mode and dying until we learn.
Progression and learning and overcoming challenges are fun to some.
However I wouldn't bother with group finder, that would just be a headache.
I will go in with people who also don't mind this as well as have the ability and build to fulfill their role and are comfortable running 3 dps 1 tank support.
Each to their own I suppose, however this isn't the games failure.
The bugs however are><

Mettaricana

This is the longest drawn out "get gud scrub" post ever...

The dungeons are hard at times you either learn the mechanics via trial and error like everyone else or you pull up a guide and figure it out some of the most complex vet dungeons are stupid easy if you got half an idea what it wants you to do.

Jaimeh

fred4 wrote: »

It's no fun when you seemingly die at random and you have no idea why. I'll be honest, I'm a farmer. I don't delight in new dungeons, I don't study them when they come out, I just want the sets, the Undaunted keys and the transmute crystals.

The point is that I can't / won't study up on every possible vet dungeon in advance of doing a random one. A minor point is the wide range of difficulty when you have all the DLC. My main gripe, however, is the hit and miss art design.

There is admittedly precedent for this elsewhere in the game, but nowhere is it as deadly (so you don't notice) and as a piece of art design it is IMO a total fail.

On the other hand, nothing IMO beats a solution where the art design and physics make sense in the first place. What do you think?

If, like you say, you are not interested in learning the dungeons, but want the benefits from them, then you're essentially asking for a carry. And in this way, the rest of the group at least knows you're not experienced with the machanics or up to the task. The fact that you don't find some mechanics logical, or obvious in your view, doesn't mean the game is lacking in that regard, in fact vMA has some of the best and most challenging mechanics in the game. Part of the fun is figuring them out when a new content is released (and soon after there's plenty of guides available), and then of course how to do them. The lasers in Frostvault are the easiest to figure out, the game is literally showing you how they work before you enter the boss room, and when there's 4 of them, they will either go clockwise or counter, so when you see the second one you know automatically how to move, without even looking at the beam. ESO mechanics are the best thing about PvE, otherwise the fights might as well be parsing on dummies.

BXR_Lonestar

I won't pug vet DLC dungeons. They're too complicated to try to do with people who may or may not be inclined to try to communicate with you and they may or may not be properly equipped to take on that kind of challenge.

As a general rule, I only do randoms on normal unless I have a premade. If I want to que for a vet dungeon, I take a look at what I have in terms of pre-made group and decide what level of challenge we can take on, and I may que for a specific dungeon just to fill the rest of the group out.

josiahva

There is no need to watch videos....I have NEVER watched a video for a vet dungeon prior to running one. I also do not do them on normal first....its simple, you queue in group finder, then before you start a given boss fight you simply ask other group members for a quick rundown as it pertains to your role(IE, if you are a tank, you don't need to know the DPS have to interrupt the boss, if you are the DPS, you don't need to know that the tank has to stay in the circle of the ice atro, all you are looking for is what your job is in a certain fight)...after you have had enough practice you can start looking to see what the job of the other roles is in case you need to fill in for them if they die. The thing that most people don't understand is that the group finder is more a tool for practice than anything else...use your tools, if you refuse to practice, you will never be able to complete the content.

Nairinhe

josiahva wrote: »

There is no need to watch videos....I have NEVER watched a video for a vet dungeon prior to running one. I also do not do them on normal first....its simple, you queue in group finder, then before you start a given boss fight you simply ask other group members for a quick rundown as it pertains to your role(IE, if you are a tank, you don't need to know the DPS have to interrupt the boss, if you are the DPS, you don't need to know that the tank has to stay in the circle of the ice atro, all you are looking for is what your job is in a certain fight)...after you have had enough practice you can start looking to see what the job of the other roles is in case you need to fill in for them if they die. The thing that most people don't understand is that the group finder is more a tool for practice than anything else...use your tools, if you refuse to practice, you will never be able to complete the content.

I disagree.
Fist of all, your group can be just as clueless or there may be a language barrier as in OP.
Second, if you are a tank you may need to know when it's dd's task to interrupt and not yours.
Third, yes, group finder is a tool for practice. For practice, not for learning, unless you are learning how to run with pugs.

fred4

Jaimeh wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

It's no fun when you seemingly die at random and you have no idea why. I'll be honest, I'm a farmer. I don't delight in new dungeons, I don't study them when they come out, I just want the sets, the Undaunted keys and the transmute crystals.

The point is that I can't / won't study up on every possible vet dungeon in advance of doing a random one. A minor point is the wide range of difficulty when you have all the DLC. My main gripe, however, is the hit and miss art design.

There is admittedly precedent for this elsewhere in the game, but nowhere is it as deadly (so you don't notice) and as a piece of art design it is IMO a total fail.

On the other hand, nothing IMO beats a solution where the art design and physics make sense in the first place. What do you think?

If, like you say, you are not interested in learning the dungeons, but want the benefits from them, then you're essentially asking for a carry. And in this way, the rest of the group at least knows you're not experienced with the machanics or up to the task. The fact that you don't find some mechanics logical, or obvious in your view, doesn't mean the game is lacking in that regard, in fact vMA has some of the best and most challenging mechanics in the game. Part of the fun is figuring them out when a new content is released (and soon after there's plenty of guides available), and then of course how to do them. The lasers in Frostvault are the easiest to figure out, the game is literally showing you how they work before you enter the boss room, and when there's 4 of them, they will either go clockwise or counter, so when you see the second one you know automatically how to move, without even looking at the beam. ESO mechanics are the best thing about PvE, otherwise the fights might as well be parsing on dummies.

The clockwise / counterclockwise thing is not at all obvious. It's something I have only learnt since someone else brought it up in this thread.

I am not looking for a carry. Far from it. I am at a point where I'm looking for more of a challenge than normal and where my general proficiency and DPS may even carry a group rather than the other way around. That's why I actually have less of a problem with getting a bad group than, perhaps, some. I have no PvE friends and I generally don't make appointments to play. That's why I join random groups. I don't mind the challenge of executing a mechanic or my rotation properly. I do mind when mechanics are obscure and it's unclear why you died and what you were supposed to do. Back in the day the aforementioned rounds of vMA also broke my immersion, particularly the Argonian behemoth. I know it's a fantasy game, but when something doesn't make any sense at all, yet it kills you, I must admit to feeling resentment.

spartaxoxo

I actually have seldom used a guide or needed a rundown to figure out some fight worked. Usually it just takes a few wipes and looking at your death recap to get the idea.

For trials I'll get the rundown anyway, but vet dlc dungeons I'll do when they first release and my group will just figure it out using trial and error without needing a guide. Only a couple of items have I went in with my group, wiped a few times, and not been able to figure out what's going by paying closer attention to the fight. Last time that happened was the HM of MoonHunter Keep.

josiahva

Nairinhe wrote: »

I disagree.
Fist of all, your group can be just as clueless or there may be a language barrier as in OP.
Second, if you are a tank you may need to know when it's dd's task to interrupt and not yours.
Third, yes, group finder is a tool for practice. For practice, not for learning, unless you are learning how to run with pugs.

I am not saying that this method works with every single group that can exist out there, just that it works with the vast majority of groups...if you get a group that is clueless themselves, then the method is trial and error until you find out(alternatively you could try again with other groups till someone in one of them does know)...when running vCT on the night it dropped, none of us had run the dungeon before or watched any videos....but we were able to figure out the fights one at a time and found the best way to get past each one(Gargoyle fight, tank pulls imps into the pit to be AoE down, Talfyg fight, he always wakes the closest gargoyle, so tank leads him to ranged gargoyles first, etc etc)

If you can't communicate with your group...there isn't much you can do about that if you don't know the fights, you simply need a new group...or use google translate or something.

Group finder most certainly IS a tool for learning. The fact is, if you queue up for group finder actually expecting to finish the run, your expectations are too high. You can and WILL get grouped with people unable for finish the dungeon for whatever reason, whether its because they don't do enough damage, cant hold aggro, can't keep people alive, can't do the mechs, don't listen to other group members, whatever, it doesn't matter. Dungeons are NOT some type of special content, and using group finder, you MUST accept that there will be new people in there, or bad players, or offensive ones, if you want to run with people that know the content....don't use group finder. If you want to learn and practice...THAT is the best use of group finder. You rarely get an optimal group in a random pug...and that is ok, learning to play around different group compositions is one of the best ways to increase your skill....unless all you want to do is stand still and parse with all the buffs...in which case I suggest a trial dummy.

DarkShadowFax

The point is that I can't / won't study up on every possible vet dungeon in advance of doing a random one.

I think this is the most important part really. If you can't be bothered reading up on a dungeon that's been out for well over a year already then you shouldn't risk exposing yourself to potential vet DLC dungeons, nor should you expect easy rewards.