please revert heals being group only in pvp (WE DID IT! its being rolled back!)

superbiquette

it's massively twelve player...

robertthebard

superbiquette wrote: »

it's massively twelve player...

So there's only ever one group in Cyro at a time, eh? Then I really don't see what we needed this thread for.

Greasytengu

robertthebard wrote: »

superbiquette wrote: »

it's massively twelve player...

So there's only ever one group in Cyro at a time, eh? Then I really don't see what we needed this thread for.

well if your healing then there is really only 12 people on your side and 150 potentially against you so...

Goregrinder

Greasytengu wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

superbiquette wrote: »

it's massively twelve player...

So there's only ever one group in Cyro at a time, eh? Then I really don't see what we needed this thread for.

well if your healing then there is really only 12 people on your side and 150 potentially against you so...

Not really, if you're healing and there is only 12 people on your side, then the enemy healers also only have 12 on their side...

Greasytengu

Goregrinder wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

superbiquette wrote: »

it's massively twelve player...

So there's only ever one group in Cyro at a time, eh? Then I really don't see what we needed this thread for.

well if your healing then there is really only 12 people on your side and 150 potentially against you so...

Not really, if you're healing and there is only 12 people on your side, then the enemy healers also only have 12 on their side...

Im not concerned about the enemy healers, its the 40 dps in the factionstack that concerns me because I have to heal or mitigate all the incoming damage.

Goregrinder

Greasytengu wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

superbiquette wrote: »

it's massively twelve player...

So there's only ever one group in Cyro at a time, eh? Then I really don't see what we needed this thread for.

well if your healing then there is really only 12 people on your side and 150 potentially against you so...

Not really, if you're healing and there is only 12 people on your side, then the enemy healers also only have 12 on their side...

Im not concerned about the enemy healers, its the 40 dps in the factionstack that concerns me because I have to heal or mitigate all the incoming damage.

Yep that is the challenge! With so much damage coming in, how do you keep them all alive? There is definitely a lot of effort you'll have to put into figuring that out, and a lot of time spent trying to get better and more efficient at it over a period of time. It's a puzzle, like a Rubik's cube...gotta learn all of the algorithms, then just memorize them and you'll eventually get faster and better at solving it.

I would say trying different builds and setups will probably help out, as well as more coordination with those you're trying to heal. I have found better communication with teammates can make or break a fight. So saying things on mic like "Don't get out of range, you're too far away from me.." or " Run to me I'm gonna ULTI right now..." work wonders.

Another thing that can help is pre planning before a big fight. Maybe communicating over mic to your team "Hey when we hit this keep, please make sure you stay near me if you want heals, otherwise you're gonna die...and if you need to be cleansed please walk into my AoE....". Pre-planning beforehand also goes a long way.

The culmination of all that can lead to improved success as a healer on the battlefield, and steps you can take to getting closer to overcoming this challenge being presented to you! You just have to believe in yourself and that you can do it, because I believe in you man!

robertthebard

Greasytengu wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

superbiquette wrote: »

it's massively twelve player...

So there's only ever one group in Cyro at a time, eh? Then I really don't see what we needed this thread for.

well if your healing then there is really only 12 people on your side and 150 potentially against you so...

Not really, if you're healing and there is only 12 people on your side, then the enemy healers also only have 12 on their side...

Im not concerned about the enemy healers, its the 40 dps in the factionstack that concerns me because I have to heal or mitigate all the incoming damage.

Isn't that the healer's job? So now we're getting closer to the actual issue? Pro Tip: It's not any easier to do that from outside of a group, but, and I guess here's the real rub, you don't have to hear all about how "it's your fault we all died", right?

VaranisArano

Goregrinder wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

roberthebard, Cyrodiil isn't a PVE dungeon where you can easily slap on a groupfinder.

1. There's no "normal" mode you can pick when you want an easy run or figure you can carry your teammates.
2. There's no 15-minute timeout when you leave. There's a queue that's based on how many players are in Cyrodiil. Once the population locks, you can't join until others leave. At primetime, think half-hour to hour long waits to rejoin Cyrodiil.
3. You don't get ported into the same instanced dungeon with your team. In Cyrodiil, you have to transit to the nearest connected keep and then ride to join them. Better hope you don't get repeatedly ganked on the way.
4. There's no guidance on roles, so you might well not have a single healer on a 12-person team.
5. There's no vote kick feature. You stay in group at the sufferance of your Crown. If they drop you because you crashed, you were too slow, or you made too many mistakes, you get kicked instantly. (This is one reason there's no penalty for leaving group in Cyrodiil.)

Finally, how do we know that Cyrodiil groupfinder doesn't work?

We had one.
ZOS removed it when they did the Activity Finder rework because it was rarely used.


I suggest you take off the PVE lenses and look at Cyrodiil for what it is.

Here's the problem, I am. Hey, I could do a hell of a job solo PvPing in Aion, but I didn't show up for sieges solo. I joined the Alliance, or one of them, and did my job. What seems to be the real issue is that I'm not feeling sorry for a support class archetype complaining about not being able to solo. Maybe they're trying to keep them from breaking their arms trying to pat themselves on the back? Maybe they're trying to encourage group play in an MMO, as I said earlier, in regard to that, "the horror", right?

Make your own group? Join an existing group? Spam map chat looking for a group? Adjust your playstyle to continue solo PvP in a group setting? Just as I would recommend in a "PuGs suck thread" or a "dungeons should have a solo mode" thread. The irony of "group content should be group content, except where I don't want it to be", and that's what we're looking at now, since you have to be in a group to heal a group, isn't lost on me, and all the thrashing around looking for reasons that it shouldn't be that way doesn't convince me, it simply amuses me.

Yep. I think people want every aspect of the game split evenly down the middle into two categories: Solo version, and group version. So they see the group requirement for healing in Cryo as the devs "taking away" their playstyle from the game. That's up to them if they choose to see it that way.

But it is more like the devs correcting a part of the game that was not encouraging group play in an area that is supposed to encourage group play. This isn't SWTOR or CyberPunk 2077 after all....this is a Massively-Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

Yes you can do various tasks by yourself, and ESO is one of the MMORPG's that give you far more leeway in that regard. But people for some reason think that every single task in the game is supposed to have a solo counter part, but it's not....some thing are intended by the devs to be done in a group of other human beings. Now that ZOS is correcting a few of those things, certain people seem to be preparing for the sky to fall or doomsday or something lol.

Let me offer a few corrections.

"ZOS is correcting an area of the game that was not encouraging group play for healers that is supposed to be encouraging group play for healers."

"Some things like playing healers are intended by the devs to be done in a group of other human beings."

"Now that the Devs are correcting a few of things like the ability of healers to not play in a group, certain people seem to be preparing for the sky to fall or doomsday or something like the end of their playstyle lol."


Because as other healers and I stated multiple times in this thread, and you've acknowledged, this absolute requirement to join a group only impacts healers. Every other playstyle in PVP can adequately perform their role without grouping up. As you said earlier, "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!" You've already admitted this isn't a generic correction to encourage group play for everyone, but is targeted at healers, and that you like the results.

But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see you flip from understanding the situation to minimizing and mocking healer concerns. After all, to riff on Upton Sinclair, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary hope of lasting healing nerfs depends on his not understanding it.

Goregrinder

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

roberthebard, Cyrodiil isn't a PVE dungeon where you can easily slap on a groupfinder.

1. There's no "normal" mode you can pick when you want an easy run or figure you can carry your teammates.
2. There's no 15-minute timeout when you leave. There's a queue that's based on how many players are in Cyrodiil. Once the population locks, you can't join until others leave. At primetime, think half-hour to hour long waits to rejoin Cyrodiil.
3. You don't get ported into the same instanced dungeon with your team. In Cyrodiil, you have to transit to the nearest connected keep and then ride to join them. Better hope you don't get repeatedly ganked on the way.
4. There's no guidance on roles, so you might well not have a single healer on a 12-person team.
5. There's no vote kick feature. You stay in group at the sufferance of your Crown. If they drop you because you crashed, you were too slow, or you made too many mistakes, you get kicked instantly. (This is one reason there's no penalty for leaving group in Cyrodiil.)

Finally, how do we know that Cyrodiil groupfinder doesn't work?

We had one.
ZOS removed it when they did the Activity Finder rework because it was rarely used.


I suggest you take off the PVE lenses and look at Cyrodiil for what it is.

Here's the problem, I am. Hey, I could do a hell of a job solo PvPing in Aion, but I didn't show up for sieges solo. I joined the Alliance, or one of them, and did my job. What seems to be the real issue is that I'm not feeling sorry for a support class archetype complaining about not being able to solo. Maybe they're trying to keep them from breaking their arms trying to pat themselves on the back? Maybe they're trying to encourage group play in an MMO, as I said earlier, in regard to that, "the horror", right?

Make your own group? Join an existing group? Spam map chat looking for a group? Adjust your playstyle to continue solo PvP in a group setting? Just as I would recommend in a "PuGs suck thread" or a "dungeons should have a solo mode" thread. The irony of "group content should be group content, except where I don't want it to be", and that's what we're looking at now, since you have to be in a group to heal a group, isn't lost on me, and all the thrashing around looking for reasons that it shouldn't be that way doesn't convince me, it simply amuses me.

Yep. I think people want every aspect of the game split evenly down the middle into two categories: Solo version, and group version. So they see the group requirement for healing in Cryo as the devs "taking away" their playstyle from the game. That's up to them if they choose to see it that way.

But it is more like the devs correcting a part of the game that was not encouraging group play in an area that is supposed to encourage group play. This isn't SWTOR or CyberPunk 2077 after all....this is a Massively-Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

Yes you can do various tasks by yourself, and ESO is one of the MMORPG's that give you far more leeway in that regard. But people for some reason think that every single task in the game is supposed to have a solo counter part, but it's not....some thing are intended by the devs to be done in a group of other human beings. Now that ZOS is correcting a few of those things, certain people seem to be preparing for the sky to fall or doomsday or something lol.

Let me offer a few corrections.

"ZOS is correcting an area of the game that was not encouraging group play for healers that is supposed to be encouraging group play for healers."

"Some things like playing healers are intended by the devs to be done in a group of other human beings."

"Now that the Devs are correcting a few of things like the ability of healers to not play in a group, certain people seem to be preparing for the sky to fall or doomsday or something like the end of their playstyle lol."


Because as other healers and I stated multiple times in this thread, and you've acknowledged, this absolute requirement to join a group only impacts healers. Every other playstyle in PVP can adequately perform their role without grouping up. As you said earlier, "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!" You've already admitted this isn't a generic correction to encourage group play for everyone, but is targeted at healers, and that you like the results.

But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see you flip from understanding the situation to minimizing and mocking healer concerns. After all, to riff on Upton Sinclair, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary hope of lasting healing nerfs depends on his not understanding it.

Yes, changes to healing only impact healers....that is 100% accurate.

VaranisArano

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

roberthebard, Cyrodiil isn't a PVE dungeon where you can easily slap on a groupfinder.

1. There's no "normal" mode you can pick when you want an easy run or figure you can carry your teammates.
2. There's no 15-minute timeout when you leave. There's a queue that's based on how many players are in Cyrodiil. Once the population locks, you can't join until others leave. At primetime, think half-hour to hour long waits to rejoin Cyrodiil.
3. You don't get ported into the same instanced dungeon with your team. In Cyrodiil, you have to transit to the nearest connected keep and then ride to join them. Better hope you don't get repeatedly ganked on the way.
4. There's no guidance on roles, so you might well not have a single healer on a 12-person team.
5. There's no vote kick feature. You stay in group at the sufferance of your Crown. If they drop you because you crashed, you were too slow, or you made too many mistakes, you get kicked instantly. (This is one reason there's no penalty for leaving group in Cyrodiil.)

Finally, how do we know that Cyrodiil groupfinder doesn't work?

We had one.
ZOS removed it when they did the Activity Finder rework because it was rarely used.


I suggest you take off the PVE lenses and look at Cyrodiil for what it is.

Here's the problem, I am. Hey, I could do a hell of a job solo PvPing in Aion, but I didn't show up for sieges solo. I joined the Alliance, or one of them, and did my job. What seems to be the real issue is that I'm not feeling sorry for a support class archetype complaining about not being able to solo. Maybe they're trying to keep them from breaking their arms trying to pat themselves on the back? Maybe they're trying to encourage group play in an MMO, as I said earlier, in regard to that, "the horror", right?

Make your own group? Join an existing group? Spam map chat looking for a group? Adjust your playstyle to continue solo PvP in a group setting? Just as I would recommend in a "PuGs suck thread" or a "dungeons should have a solo mode" thread. The irony of "group content should be group content, except where I don't want it to be", and that's what we're looking at now, since you have to be in a group to heal a group, isn't lost on me, and all the thrashing around looking for reasons that it shouldn't be that way doesn't convince me, it simply amuses me.

Yep. I think people want every aspect of the game split evenly down the middle into two categories: Solo version, and group version. So they see the group requirement for healing in Cryo as the devs "taking away" their playstyle from the game. That's up to them if they choose to see it that way.

But it is more like the devs correcting a part of the game that was not encouraging group play in an area that is supposed to encourage group play. This isn't SWTOR or CyberPunk 2077 after all....this is a Massively-Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

Yes you can do various tasks by yourself, and ESO is one of the MMORPG's that give you far more leeway in that regard. But people for some reason think that every single task in the game is supposed to have a solo counter part, but it's not....some thing are intended by the devs to be done in a group of other human beings. Now that ZOS is correcting a few of those things, certain people seem to be preparing for the sky to fall or doomsday or something lol.

Let me offer a few corrections.

"ZOS is correcting an area of the game that was not encouraging group play for healers that is supposed to be encouraging group play for healers."

"Some things like playing healers are intended by the devs to be done in a group of other human beings."

"Now that the Devs are correcting a few of things like the ability of healers to not play in a group, certain people seem to be preparing for the sky to fall or doomsday or something like the end of their playstyle lol."


Because as other healers and I stated multiple times in this thread, and you've acknowledged, this absolute requirement to join a group only impacts healers. Every other playstyle in PVP can adequately perform their role without grouping up. As you said earlier, "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!" You've already admitted this isn't a generic correction to encourage group play for everyone, but is targeted at healers, and that you like the results.

But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see you flip from understanding the situation to minimizing and mocking healer concerns. After all, to riff on Upton Sinclair, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary hope of lasting healing nerfs depends on his not understanding it.

Yes, changes to healing only impact healers....that is 100% accurate.

Can't tell if sarcasm? Or maybe just a snappy response to something I didn't say.

Maybe reread? I'm speaking, as you were, of the removal of solo play options and forced group requirement for healers, and only healers.

Greasytengu

Goregrinder wrote: »

Yep that is the challenge! With so much damage coming in, how do you keep them all alive? There is definitely a lot of effort you'll have to put into figuring that out, and a lot of time spent trying to get better and more efficient at it over a period of time. It's a puzzle, like a Rubik's cube...gotta learn all of the algorithms, then just memorize them and you'll eventually get faster and better at solving it.

I would say trying different builds and setups will probably help out, as well as more coordination with those you're trying to heal. I have found better communication with teammates can make or break a fight. So saying things on mic like "Don't get out of range, you're too far away from me.." or " Run to me I'm gonna ULTI right now..." work wonders.

Another thing that can help is pre planning before a big fight. Maybe communicating over mic to your team "Hey when we hit this keep, please make sure you stay near me if you want heals, otherwise you're gonna die...and if you need to be cleansed please walk into my AoE....". Pre-planning beforehand also goes a long way.

The culmination of all that can lead to improved success as a healer on the battlefield, and steps you can take to getting closer to overcoming this challenge being presented to you! You just have to believe in yourself and that you can do it, because I believe in you man!

I usually run in an organized raid, we've actually been doing pretty well all things considering, though its not surprising now that organized groups have such an advantage. But im going to tell you something, our group's success is not the faction's success.

It is extremely galling that I can only contribute to a fight by only healing my own. Any DPS or bomber can still attack and potentially kill 40 players, but for some reason I am limited to just 12? Nevermind the fact if I cant heal the random pug running into my group that will surely proc vicious death on us potentially killing us all, Or the fact I cant heal the people actually sieging the walls down while our group protects the flank. It honestly seems like there is no point in even trying to help out other groups any more.

Thanks for having believing in me I guess, wish I could believe in ZOS though.

robertthebard wrote: »

Isn't that the healer's job? So now we're getting closer to the actual issue? Pro Tip: It's not any easier to do that from outside of a group, but, and I guess here's the real rub, you don't have to hear all about how "it's your fault we all died", right?

Not even going to dignify this with a response.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.

Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?

The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?

yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.

Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.

when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....

Goregrinder wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

none of these changes make sense to me.... but I typically only play PVP healer in SUB50 non-vet.

Seems like *** changes. Who's at the helm for these changes now?

The changes already happened a while ago. Like 2 patches ago now I think yeah?

yeah I'm only recently back after long hiatus. Hence i'm all for reverting them.

Ah gotcha, yeah it took some of us a bit to adapt to the new flow of combat but I'm personally digging the group size limit change and the group requirement for AoE heals. That means there is a hard limit to how many AoE heals can actually hit a single player, your own plus up to 11 other player's AoE heals, nothing more.

when they make a similar limit to block AOE dps to a single group call me.....

I don't really have to call you, AoE healing is already limited to a group of 12....as it should be, so I am already good to go.

not so fast.... AOE is limited to 12, but not limited to "group" right? I mean if 32 singletons run through a gate and you AOE DPS skill then 12 will be hit right? So how does that work with AOE heals?

The point is you can't heal randoms, but you can AOE DPS them (up to 12).

Yes, exactly. Healing and dealing damage shouldn't be balanced equal to each other like you are proposing they should, is my point. Players being able to deal damage to other players should be of the highest priority, with healing/survivability falling somewhere underneath. You're saying they should share the highest priority equally, I am saying they should not.....with damage being a higher priority than healing. Which means being able to cast AoE damage spells and hit more than 12 other targets, but only being able to heal those in your group is more balanced than treating them equally.

If players will each other too fast, what are you left with? You're still left with Player Versus Player, with players able to kill other players.

But if players can out heal each other's damage indefinitely, what do you have? If no one is actually dying, it's not actually Player Vs Player...it's just player's casting glowing lights together at the same time for an hour...literally nothing else.

@Goregrinder I don't necessarily disagree with your premise, ie: "damage being a higher priority than healing".

But,
The change to heals only affecting groups only makes a difference to that equation in the case where you have more players on each side than can fit in one group, or if players aren't grouped.
In all other cases, the healing restriction change hasn't addressed your point at all, ie:
1 X-person group vs another X-person ball group
1v1
etc
In all of these cases, the balance of damage vs healing hasn't been changed at all.

So if your point is that we need to shift the balance between damage and healing back in favour of damage, then this change isn't really useful is it? We still have the same issue with a potential stalemate in a 1v1, with one players damage unable to overcome the others self heals. Or an organised group unable to overcome another organised group's heals. Or an ungrouped group of players unable to overcome an actual grouped group's heals (but strangely not the reverse).

Shouldn't addressing this issue you raise point mean having a look at the relative power of all healing abilities (and/or modifiers). Otherwise it's just arbitrarily imposing the disadvantage on some players who choose to play a certain way, while others are unaffected.

With heals being restricted to group members only, and a group size now consisting of only 12 players now....that means instead of 30 or 40 players being able to all heal each other, now only up to 12 players can heal each other in Cyrodiil, and they all have to be grouped....no more out of group dumbfire heals. That means less potential heals per player, which means more potential incoming damage per player, which means the likely hood of players dying increased rather than decreased, which is good. Are you saying that's not actually the case?

In actual practice, the only people for whom that's true are PUGs.

Ball groups, who ran in 12-player groups and who's dedicated healers pump out a ton more healing than any PUG or "solo" healer, were hardly impacted. (Source: I've done all three and nothing matches the healspam my dedicated healer can pump out from the protection of a coordinated group with stacked support sets. PUGs scatter and my "solo" healer has to play defensively.)

Result?
Ball groups hardly lost any healing and definitely lost no damage. Purely in terms of healing and buffs, they are as hard to kill than ever. As we've seen, they are not more likely to die now.

Their PUG opponents, on the other hand, lost a lot of healing from players not in their group. As you say, this increases their likelihood of dying, something we've seen as they get farmed worse than ever by ball groups whose healing wasn't touched.

Have we hit the point in the argument where PUGs are the true scourge of Cyrodiil yet?

I can only chalk this up to the difference between organized small scale and organized guild raids. As a member of an organized guild raid, I watch us slaughter PUGs and think "We didn't need a leg up against PUGs, ZOS." Whereas I assume that certain small scalers are thinking, "ZOS, we'll take every advantage we can get against that horde of PUGs!"

How much healing they lost doesn't concern me that much, just that they in fact lost some healing, which is progress. Damage staying the same with the loss of some healing, means players can die faster which is also good. Organized groups always had an advantage over Pugs, and they always will. That's the nature of a well oiled machine vs a duct tape and glued together contraption.

As long as healing is going towards the right direction (being reduced), or at least the required effort in order to heal the same amount is being increased, then there is hope for open world PVP after all....7 years later.

Actually its the worst patch in 7 year as its the first to kill a tole in pvp and that is stupid no mottter the intention

Wing

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Actually its the worst patch in 7 year as its the first to kill a tole in pvp and that is stupid no mottter the intention

i actually had a long think on this, as we often say "oh this is the worst" to most things they do.

but i strongly feel that even terrible performance aside, this is in fact the worst PvP has ever been.

i long for the day when the worst thing complained about was impulse spamming blobs, or black rose being OP (fun fact black rose is stronger now then its ever been and nobody cares)

robertthebard

Greasytengu wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Yep that is the challenge! With so much damage coming in, how do you keep them all alive? There is definitely a lot of effort you'll have to put into figuring that out, and a lot of time spent trying to get better and more efficient at it over a period of time. It's a puzzle, like a Rubik's cube...gotta learn all of the algorithms, then just memorize them and you'll eventually get faster and better at solving it.

I would say trying different builds and setups will probably help out, as well as more coordination with those you're trying to heal. I have found better communication with teammates can make or break a fight. So saying things on mic like "Don't get out of range, you're too far away from me.." or " Run to me I'm gonna ULTI right now..." work wonders.

Another thing that can help is pre planning before a big fight. Maybe communicating over mic to your team "Hey when we hit this keep, please make sure you stay near me if you want heals, otherwise you're gonna die...and if you need to be cleansed please walk into my AoE....". Pre-planning beforehand also goes a long way.

The culmination of all that can lead to improved success as a healer on the battlefield, and steps you can take to getting closer to overcoming this challenge being presented to you! You just have to believe in yourself and that you can do it, because I believe in you man!

I usually run in an organized raid, we've actually been doing pretty well all things considering, though its not surprising now that organized groups have such an advantage. But im going to tell you something, our group's success is not the faction's success.

It is extremely galling that I can only contribute to a fight by only healing my own. Any DPS or bomber can still attack and potentially kill 40 players, but for some reason I am limited to just 12? Nevermind the fact if I cant heal the random pug running into my group that will surely proc vicious death on us potentially killing us all, Or the fact I cant heal the people actually sieging the walls down while our group protects the flank. It honestly seems like there is no point in even trying to help out other groups any more.

Thanks for having believing in me I guess, wish I could believe in ZOS though.

robertthebard wrote: »

Isn't that the healer's job? So now we're getting closer to the actual issue? Pro Tip: It's not any easier to do that from outside of a group, but, and I guess here's the real rub, you don't have to hear all about how "it's your fault we all died", right?

Not even going to dignify this with a response.

Are we going to attempt to pretend that that doesn't happen then? Interesting... This was posted in 2013.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DxS7eT_ky4&ab_channel=PressStartToLaugh

Goregrinder

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

roberthebard, Cyrodiil isn't a PVE dungeon where you can easily slap on a groupfinder.

1. There's no "normal" mode you can pick when you want an easy run or figure you can carry your teammates.
2. There's no 15-minute timeout when you leave. There's a queue that's based on how many players are in Cyrodiil. Once the population locks, you can't join until others leave. At primetime, think half-hour to hour long waits to rejoin Cyrodiil.
3. You don't get ported into the same instanced dungeon with your team. In Cyrodiil, you have to transit to the nearest connected keep and then ride to join them. Better hope you don't get repeatedly ganked on the way.
4. There's no guidance on roles, so you might well not have a single healer on a 12-person team.
5. There's no vote kick feature. You stay in group at the sufferance of your Crown. If they drop you because you crashed, you were too slow, or you made too many mistakes, you get kicked instantly. (This is one reason there's no penalty for leaving group in Cyrodiil.)

Finally, how do we know that Cyrodiil groupfinder doesn't work?

We had one.
ZOS removed it when they did the Activity Finder rework because it was rarely used.


I suggest you take off the PVE lenses and look at Cyrodiil for what it is.

Here's the problem, I am. Hey, I could do a hell of a job solo PvPing in Aion, but I didn't show up for sieges solo. I joined the Alliance, or one of them, and did my job. What seems to be the real issue is that I'm not feeling sorry for a support class archetype complaining about not being able to solo. Maybe they're trying to keep them from breaking their arms trying to pat themselves on the back? Maybe they're trying to encourage group play in an MMO, as I said earlier, in regard to that, "the horror", right?

Make your own group? Join an existing group? Spam map chat looking for a group? Adjust your playstyle to continue solo PvP in a group setting? Just as I would recommend in a "PuGs suck thread" or a "dungeons should have a solo mode" thread. The irony of "group content should be group content, except where I don't want it to be", and that's what we're looking at now, since you have to be in a group to heal a group, isn't lost on me, and all the thrashing around looking for reasons that it shouldn't be that way doesn't convince me, it simply amuses me.

Yep. I think people want every aspect of the game split evenly down the middle into two categories: Solo version, and group version. So they see the group requirement for healing in Cryo as the devs "taking away" their playstyle from the game. That's up to them if they choose to see it that way.

But it is more like the devs correcting a part of the game that was not encouraging group play in an area that is supposed to encourage group play. This isn't SWTOR or CyberPunk 2077 after all....this is a Massively-Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

Yes you can do various tasks by yourself, and ESO is one of the MMORPG's that give you far more leeway in that regard. But people for some reason think that every single task in the game is supposed to have a solo counter part, but it's not....some thing are intended by the devs to be done in a group of other human beings. Now that ZOS is correcting a few of those things, certain people seem to be preparing for the sky to fall or doomsday or something lol.

Let me offer a few corrections.

"ZOS is correcting an area of the game that was not encouraging group play for healers that is supposed to be encouraging group play for healers."

"Some things like playing healers are intended by the devs to be done in a group of other human beings."

"Now that the Devs are correcting a few of things like the ability of healers to not play in a group, certain people seem to be preparing for the sky to fall or doomsday or something like the end of their playstyle lol."


Because as other healers and I stated multiple times in this thread, and you've acknowledged, this absolute requirement to join a group only impacts healers. Every other playstyle in PVP can adequately perform their role without grouping up. As you said earlier, "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!" You've already admitted this isn't a generic correction to encourage group play for everyone, but is targeted at healers, and that you like the results.

But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see you flip from understanding the situation to minimizing and mocking healer concerns. After all, to riff on Upton Sinclair, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary hope of lasting healing nerfs depends on his not understanding it.

Yes, changes to healing only impact healers....that is 100% accurate.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

roberthebard, Cyrodiil isn't a PVE dungeon where you can easily slap on a groupfinder.

1. There's no "normal" mode you can pick when you want an easy run or figure you can carry your teammates.
2. There's no 15-minute timeout when you leave. There's a queue that's based on how many players are in Cyrodiil. Once the population locks, you can't join until others leave. At primetime, think half-hour to hour long waits to rejoin Cyrodiil.
3. You don't get ported into the same instanced dungeon with your team. In Cyrodiil, you have to transit to the nearest connected keep and then ride to join them. Better hope you don't get repeatedly ganked on the way.
4. There's no guidance on roles, so you might well not have a single healer on a 12-person team.
5. There's no vote kick feature. You stay in group at the sufferance of your Crown. If they drop you because you crashed, you were too slow, or you made too many mistakes, you get kicked instantly. (This is one reason there's no penalty for leaving group in Cyrodiil.)

Finally, how do we know that Cyrodiil groupfinder doesn't work?

We had one.
ZOS removed it when they did the Activity Finder rework because it was rarely used.


I suggest you take off the PVE lenses and look at Cyrodiil for what it is.

Here's the problem, I am. Hey, I could do a hell of a job solo PvPing in Aion, but I didn't show up for sieges solo. I joined the Alliance, or one of them, and did my job. What seems to be the real issue is that I'm not feeling sorry for a support class archetype complaining about not being able to solo. Maybe they're trying to keep them from breaking their arms trying to pat themselves on the back? Maybe they're trying to encourage group play in an MMO, as I said earlier, in regard to that, "the horror", right?

Make your own group? Join an existing group? Spam map chat looking for a group? Adjust your playstyle to continue solo PvP in a group setting? Just as I would recommend in a "PuGs suck thread" or a "dungeons should have a solo mode" thread. The irony of "group content should be group content, except where I don't want it to be", and that's what we're looking at now, since you have to be in a group to heal a group, isn't lost on me, and all the thrashing around looking for reasons that it shouldn't be that way doesn't convince me, it simply amuses me.

Yep. I think people want every aspect of the game split evenly down the middle into two categories: Solo version, and group version. So they see the group requirement for healing in Cryo as the devs "taking away" their playstyle from the game. That's up to them if they choose to see it that way.

But it is more like the devs correcting a part of the game that was not encouraging group play in an area that is supposed to encourage group play. This isn't SWTOR or CyberPunk 2077 after all....this is a Massively-Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

Yes you can do various tasks by yourself, and ESO is one of the MMORPG's that give you far more leeway in that regard. But people for some reason think that every single task in the game is supposed to have a solo counter part, but it's not....some thing are intended by the devs to be done in a group of other human beings. Now that ZOS is correcting a few of those things, certain people seem to be preparing for the sky to fall or doomsday or something lol.

Let me offer a few corrections.

"ZOS is correcting an area of the game that was not encouraging group play for healers that is supposed to be encouraging group play for healers."

"Some things like playing healers are intended by the devs to be done in a group of other human beings."

"Now that the Devs are correcting a few of things like the ability of healers to not play in a group, certain people seem to be preparing for the sky to fall or doomsday or something like the end of their playstyle lol."


Because as other healers and I stated multiple times in this thread, and you've acknowledged, this absolute requirement to join a group only impacts healers. Every other playstyle in PVP can adequately perform their role without grouping up. As you said earlier, "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!" You've already admitted this isn't a generic correction to encourage group play for everyone, but is targeted at healers, and that you like the results.

But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see you flip from understanding the situation to minimizing and mocking healer concerns. After all, to riff on Upton Sinclair, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary hope of lasting healing nerfs depends on his not understanding it.

Yes, changes to healing only impact healers....that is 100% accurate.

Can't tell if sarcasm? Or maybe just a snappy response to something I didn't say.

Maybe reread? I'm speaking, as you were, of the removal of solo play options and forced group requirement for healers, and only healers.

I was agreeing with you that changes to healing does in fact only impact people who heal...aka healers.

Goregrinder

Greasytengu wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Yep that is the challenge! With so much damage coming in, how do you keep them all alive? There is definitely a lot of effort you'll have to put into figuring that out, and a lot of time spent trying to get better and more efficient at it over a period of time. It's a puzzle, like a Rubik's cube...gotta learn all of the algorithms, then just memorize them and you'll eventually get faster and better at solving it.

I would say trying different builds and setups will probably help out, as well as more coordination with those you're trying to heal. I have found better communication with teammates can make or break a fight. So saying things on mic like "Don't get out of range, you're too far away from me.." or " Run to me I'm gonna ULTI right now..." work wonders.

Another thing that can help is pre planning before a big fight. Maybe communicating over mic to your team "Hey when we hit this keep, please make sure you stay near me if you want heals, otherwise you're gonna die...and if you need to be cleansed please walk into my AoE....". Pre-planning beforehand also goes a long way.

The culmination of all that can lead to improved success as a healer on the battlefield, and steps you can take to getting closer to overcoming this challenge being presented to you! You just have to believe in yourself and that you can do it, because I believe in you man!

I usually run in an organized raid, we've actually been doing pretty well all things considering, though its not surprising now that organized groups have such an advantage.

That is awesome, running in an organized group already puts you ahead of the curve! It's crazy how valuable team work can be due to how effectively it increases the rate of success with the same amount of resources used. Even when I playing other games, when my team is firing on all cylinders, we're communicating with each other, supporting each other, setting each other up for success....then to get that chicken dinner at the end, no feeling quite like it!

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Wing wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Actually its the worst patch in 7 year as its the first to kill a tole in pvp and that is stupid no mottter the intention

i actually had a long think on this, as we often say "oh this is the worst" to most things they do.

but i strongly feel that even terrible performance aside, this is in fact the worst PvP has ever been.

i long for the day when the worst thing complained about was impulse spamming blobs, or black rose being OP (fun fact black rose is stronger now then its ever been and nobody cares)

Well as far as i know its the first time they completly lock a style of play

Most of the time you only need to change a skill or 2 or a set

Now being a solo heler cannot be madd possible by changing skill, set or something else
I mean as far as i know solo healer can only heal with 3 skill. 2 of wich are class skill, locckin them away from the 5 other class. We can hardly call that a healer

VaranisArano

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

roberthebard, Cyrodiil isn't a PVE dungeon where you can easily slap on a groupfinder.

1. There's no "normal" mode you can pick when you want an easy run or figure you can carry your teammates.
2. There's no 15-minute timeout when you leave. There's a queue that's based on how many players are in Cyrodiil. Once the population locks, you can't join until others leave. At primetime, think half-hour to hour long waits to rejoin Cyrodiil.
3. You don't get ported into the same instanced dungeon with your team. In Cyrodiil, you have to transit to the nearest connected keep and then ride to join them. Better hope you don't get repeatedly ganked on the way.
4. There's no guidance on roles, so you might well not have a single healer on a 12-person team.
5. There's no vote kick feature. You stay in group at the sufferance of your Crown. If they drop you because you crashed, you were too slow, or you made too many mistakes, you get kicked instantly. (This is one reason there's no penalty for leaving group in Cyrodiil.)

Finally, how do we know that Cyrodiil groupfinder doesn't work?

We had one.
ZOS removed it when they did the Activity Finder rework because it was rarely used.


I suggest you take off the PVE lenses and look at Cyrodiil for what it is.

Here's the problem, I am. Hey, I could do a hell of a job solo PvPing in Aion, but I didn't show up for sieges solo. I joined the Alliance, or one of them, and did my job. What seems to be the real issue is that I'm not feeling sorry for a support class archetype complaining about not being able to solo. Maybe they're trying to keep them from breaking their arms trying to pat themselves on the back? Maybe they're trying to encourage group play in an MMO, as I said earlier, in regard to that, "the horror", right?

Make your own group? Join an existing group? Spam map chat looking for a group? Adjust your playstyle to continue solo PvP in a group setting? Just as I would recommend in a "PuGs suck thread" or a "dungeons should have a solo mode" thread. The irony of "group content should be group content, except where I don't want it to be", and that's what we're looking at now, since you have to be in a group to heal a group, isn't lost on me, and all the thrashing around looking for reasons that it shouldn't be that way doesn't convince me, it simply amuses me.

Yep. I think people want every aspect of the game split evenly down the middle into two categories: Solo version, and group version. So they see the group requirement for healing in Cryo as the devs "taking away" their playstyle from the game. That's up to them if they choose to see it that way.

But it is more like the devs correcting a part of the game that was not encouraging group play in an area that is supposed to encourage group play. This isn't SWTOR or CyberPunk 2077 after all....this is a Massively-Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

Yes you can do various tasks by yourself, and ESO is one of the MMORPG's that give you far more leeway in that regard. But people for some reason think that every single task in the game is supposed to have a solo counter part, but it's not....some thing are intended by the devs to be done in a group of other human beings. Now that ZOS is correcting a few of those things, certain people seem to be preparing for the sky to fall or doomsday or something lol.

Let me offer a few corrections.

"ZOS is correcting an area of the game that was not encouraging group play for healers that is supposed to be encouraging group play for healers."

"Some things like playing healers are intended by the devs to be done in a group of other human beings."

"Now that the Devs are correcting a few of things like the ability of healers to not play in a group, certain people seem to be preparing for the sky to fall or doomsday or something like the end of their playstyle lol."


Because as other healers and I stated multiple times in this thread, and you've acknowledged, this absolute requirement to join a group only impacts healers. Every other playstyle in PVP can adequately perform their role without grouping up. As you said earlier, "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!" You've already admitted this isn't a generic correction to encourage group play for everyone, but is targeted at healers, and that you like the results.

But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see you flip from understanding the situation to minimizing and mocking healer concerns. After all, to riff on Upton Sinclair, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary hope of lasting healing nerfs depends on his not understanding it.

Yes, changes to healing only impact healers....that is 100% accurate.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

roberthebard, Cyrodiil isn't a PVE dungeon where you can easily slap on a groupfinder.

1. There's no "normal" mode you can pick when you want an easy run or figure you can carry your teammates.
2. There's no 15-minute timeout when you leave. There's a queue that's based on how many players are in Cyrodiil. Once the population locks, you can't join until others leave. At primetime, think half-hour to hour long waits to rejoin Cyrodiil.
3. You don't get ported into the same instanced dungeon with your team. In Cyrodiil, you have to transit to the nearest connected keep and then ride to join them. Better hope you don't get repeatedly ganked on the way.
4. There's no guidance on roles, so you might well not have a single healer on a 12-person team.
5. There's no vote kick feature. You stay in group at the sufferance of your Crown. If they drop you because you crashed, you were too slow, or you made too many mistakes, you get kicked instantly. (This is one reason there's no penalty for leaving group in Cyrodiil.)

Finally, how do we know that Cyrodiil groupfinder doesn't work?

We had one.
ZOS removed it when they did the Activity Finder rework because it was rarely used.


I suggest you take off the PVE lenses and look at Cyrodiil for what it is.

Here's the problem, I am. Hey, I could do a hell of a job solo PvPing in Aion, but I didn't show up for sieges solo. I joined the Alliance, or one of them, and did my job. What seems to be the real issue is that I'm not feeling sorry for a support class archetype complaining about not being able to solo. Maybe they're trying to keep them from breaking their arms trying to pat themselves on the back? Maybe they're trying to encourage group play in an MMO, as I said earlier, in regard to that, "the horror", right?

Make your own group? Join an existing group? Spam map chat looking for a group? Adjust your playstyle to continue solo PvP in a group setting? Just as I would recommend in a "PuGs suck thread" or a "dungeons should have a solo mode" thread. The irony of "group content should be group content, except where I don't want it to be", and that's what we're looking at now, since you have to be in a group to heal a group, isn't lost on me, and all the thrashing around looking for reasons that it shouldn't be that way doesn't convince me, it simply amuses me.

Yep. I think people want every aspect of the game split evenly down the middle into two categories: Solo version, and group version. So they see the group requirement for healing in Cryo as the devs "taking away" their playstyle from the game. That's up to them if they choose to see it that way.

But it is more like the devs correcting a part of the game that was not encouraging group play in an area that is supposed to encourage group play. This isn't SWTOR or CyberPunk 2077 after all....this is a Massively-Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

Yes you can do various tasks by yourself, and ESO is one of the MMORPG's that give you far more leeway in that regard. But people for some reason think that every single task in the game is supposed to have a solo counter part, but it's not....some thing are intended by the devs to be done in a group of other human beings. Now that ZOS is correcting a few of those things, certain people seem to be preparing for the sky to fall or doomsday or something lol.

Let me offer a few corrections.

"ZOS is correcting an area of the game that was not encouraging group play for healers that is supposed to be encouraging group play for healers."

"Some things like playing healers are intended by the devs to be done in a group of other human beings."

"Now that the Devs are correcting a few of things like the ability of healers to not play in a group, certain people seem to be preparing for the sky to fall or doomsday or something like the end of their playstyle lol."


Because as other healers and I stated multiple times in this thread, and you've acknowledged, this absolute requirement to join a group only impacts healers. Every other playstyle in PVP can adequately perform their role without grouping up. As you said earlier, "So you don't want to join a group? Awesome, no worries do your thang bro!" You've already admitted this isn't a generic correction to encourage group play for everyone, but is targeted at healers, and that you like the results.

But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see you flip from understanding the situation to minimizing and mocking healer concerns. After all, to riff on Upton Sinclair, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary hope of lasting healing nerfs depends on his not understanding it.

Yes, changes to healing only impact healers....that is 100% accurate.

Can't tell if sarcasm? Or maybe just a snappy response to something I didn't say.

Maybe reread? I'm speaking, as you were, of the removal of solo play options and forced group requirement for healers, and only healers.

I was agreeing with you that changes to healing does in fact only impact people who heal...aka healers.

Oh! In that case, thanks for the clarification as I clearly misunderstood!

renne

robertthebard wrote: »

2. I'm not down with the toxicity aimed at healers in MMOs in general.

Oh, the irony.

NyassaV

This "mechanic" only encourages ball groups otherwise you get no healing.

eso_lags

Joy_Division wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

roberthebard, Cyrodiil isn't a PVE dungeon where you can easily slap on a groupfinder.

1. There's no "normal" mode you can pick when you want an easy run or figure you can carry your teammates.
2. There's no 15-minute timeout when you leave. There's a queue that's based on how many players are in Cyrodiil. Once the population locks, you can't join until others leave. At primetime, think half-hour to hour long waits to rejoin Cyrodiil.
3. You don't get ported into the same instanced dungeon with your team. In Cyrodiil, you have to transit to the nearest connected keep and then ride to join them. Better hope you don't get repeatedly ganked on the way.
4. There's no guidance on roles, so you might well not have a single healer on a 12-person team.
5. There's no vote kick feature. You stay in group at the sufferance of your Crown. If they drop you because you crashed, you were too slow, or you made too many mistakes, you get kicked instantly. (This is one reason there's no penalty for leaving group in Cyrodiil.)

Finally, how do we know that Cyrodiil groupfinder doesn't work?

We had one.
ZOS removed it when they did the Activity Finder rework because it was rarely used.


I suggest you take off the PVE lenses and look at Cyrodiil for what it is.

Here's the problem, I am. Hey, I could do a hell of a job solo PvPing in Aion, but I didn't show up for sieges solo. I joined the Alliance, or one of them, and did my job. What seems to be the real issue is that I'm not feeling sorry for a support class archetype complaining about not being able to solo. Maybe they're trying to keep them from breaking their arms trying to pat themselves on the back? Maybe they're trying to encourage group play in an MMO, as I said earlier, in regard to that, "the horror", right?

Make your own group? Join an existing group? Spam map chat looking for a group? Adjust your playstyle to continue solo PvP in a group setting? Just as I would recommend in a "PuGs suck thread" or a "dungeons should have a solo mode" thread. The irony of "group content should be group content, except where I don't want it to be", and that's what we're looking at now, since you have to be in a group to heal a group, isn't lost on me, and all the thrashing around looking for reasons that it shouldn't be that way doesn't convince me, it simply amuses me.

If ZOS was trying to encourage group play, they have a funny way of showing it in that they release sets like Crimson that allow solo players to tank entire raids, devised a game in which in which damage oriented character have by far the easiest time healing themselves of any fantasy game I have played, and failed to also implement mechanics to disable the functioning of solitary DPS skills, which happen to the largest category in the playerbase.

Not to mention, they would have flat out said it in their explanation for why these changes were implemented. Especially since, as you say, this is an MMO and grouping up would seem to be a logical part of the game. That they didn;t speaks volumes. Instead it's just the vague "behavioral changes," probably because being more specific would have easily enabled players to call them out on the holes and inconsistency of these changes.

What ZOS did do was specifically target just a part of the playerbase, who understandably feel like they are being scapegoated and just plain picked on not just by the developers, but also by other players who are still able to play as they want to and can only muster the insensitive response, "join a group."

If joining and making a group or spamming LFG in zone was the be all to end all and this wonderful, enlightening, and powerful game playing experience as you and the other "just join a group" advocates imply, then people would already be doing that and wouldn't be complaining at being all but forced to do so. As someone who has done all 3 (group joining, group making, and LFGing in zone) I know that people who are just saying join a group either know nothing of the frustrations of doing so or do know but are so insensitive that they just say it anyway.

A lot of players obviously prefer not to deal with those frustrations. Those frustrations are valid in that they detract from the customer's enjoyment of the game and unfair in that they are the result of the developers making a conscious change that only afflict a minuity of the customer base, which is why ZOS has been able to get away with it. If such "encouragement" was directed at and against the desires of their high profile streamers or the majority (i.e., DPS), then these changes would have never left the drawing table.

idk joy it really does seem like you have a disdain for solo players, like i said before. I get the feeling that you're the type that doesnt think twice about the stuff zos puts in the game that absolutely ravages solo play. Stuff like cost poisons, proc sets, earthgore, idk theres plenty of things i could list.

And you're completely wrong about zos "getting away" with this because healers are a minority. They make changes that are bad all the time. Bad for the majority and bad for the minority. They dont care, they do what they think is right even when its incredibly stupid and even when its not so bad.

If anything they get away with it because its pvp. Zos has never seemed to care about pvp. I can go into cyrodil every single day, here on xbox, and show you unplayable gameplay footage. Every single day, categorically, without fail, it will happen. And it will happen more than half of the time. If thats not detracting from the enjoyment of players then idk what will, and they have yet to do a thing about it, for years now. Every person I talk to experiences it, and zos admits it. Its not like 3 years ago where customer service would tell you to hard reset your xbox and check with your ISP. This change seems to be one of the first steps to solving performance, but regardless its been unsolved for an incredibly long time. Im sure there will be many casualties along the way, and im not so sure it will solve anything. Maybe in the end after a lot of changes, but my point is changes should have happened a long time ago and they didnt. Because its pvp.

Cireous

I'm too lazy to read the entire thread to see if this has already been mentioned yet or not, but I just want to note, that, "Please revert all the changes you made in PVE as well."

All the healing and support you have hijacked from our skills and from our gear... please give it all back. You've rendered nearly every one of my sets useless in the Open World.

How could you and how dare you.

superbiquette

sorry cireous we ( the random pick up soloplayers ) destroy some lead dreams and some live streams so now you're punished because of us

robertthebard

renne wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

2. I'm not down with the toxicity aimed at healers in MMOs in general.

Oh, the irony.

Except there is no irony here. I get that these days disagreeing with someone about something is supposed to be toxic, but I don't subscribe to that belief system.

I sit here, and I wonder, "Why would a support role prefer to "do their job", (in quotes because their job is to support a group), from outside of a group"? I've listed one possible scenario for that, even provided a video of what I'm talking about. There are other possibilities, which range from:

1. They're not very good at it to;
2. They've got social anxiety.

Lots of wiggle room for other things in between, but pointing out some of the possible/probable scenarios doesn't equate to toxicity, except to someone that sincerely believes that disagreeing with them is the definition of toxic. I don't believe that encouraging group play in an MMO is a bad thing, and that, above all else, is what makes people think I'm being toxic? It says more about them than it will ever say about me.

superbiquette

support is not only for group , but i understand you just want people to play like you say.

Varana

This change doesn't "encourage group play".
It discourages playing a healer. Simple as that.

Also,
3. You're in a group but come across other allies who could use a bit of support.
4. You're not in a group atm for whatever reason but come across other allies who could use a heal.
5. You're one or more groups with some ungrouped followers currently fighting a large number of enemies, also distributed over several groups with followers. You know, the thing Cyrodiil is all about.
6. You've just arrived at a siege and everyone's busy slaughtering others and avoid the opposite, so it's a bit hard getting into that group at a moment's notice. Instead, you could start contributing to your alliance's success ... oh.
7. You don't get along with the guy who is currently running the PUG. Maybe because he doesn't like healers.

And quite a lot of other reasons.

But the point remains:
In Cyrodiil, your alliance is your group.
By negating heals outside of a small circle of players, you're denying healers participation in their group play.
In some astounding act of hypocrisy, that somehow does not apply to doing damage. For players who aren't trying to heal someone, the same style of playing is somehow not "encouraged". Anyone talking about "group play" because of this, can't be taken seriously until they also advocate for similar restrictions for all other playstyles.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

robertthebard wrote: »

renne wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

2. I'm not down with the toxicity aimed at healers in MMOs in general.

Oh, the irony.

Except there is no irony here. I get that these days disagreeing with someone about something is supposed to be toxic, but I don't subscribe to that belief system.

I sit here, and I wonder, "Why would a support role prefer to "do their job", (in quotes because their job is to support a group), from outside of a group"? I've listed one possible scenario for that, even provided a video of what I'm talking about. There are other possibilities, which range from:

1. They're not very good at it to;
2. They've got social anxiety.

Lots of wiggle room for other things in between, but pointing out some of the possible/probable scenarios doesn't equate to toxicity, except to someone that sincerely believes that disagreeing with them is the definition of toxic. I don't believe that encouraging group play in an MMO is a bad thing, and that, above all else, is what makes people think I'm being toxic? It says more about them than it will ever say about me.

Our job was to support our alliance as a whole, not just 12 people
Cyrodiil is alliance war not group war

Grimlok_S

I'd be cool with healing staying in group if stam duos could stack Resolving Vigor again.

Echoing doesn't seem worth it unless you have 5 or 6.

Edit: Until that time I will continue to welcome rogue healers.

Pauwer

I queue to cyro for 45 mins on my healer, i lfg on all guild chats and finally area chat, and what do you know, there ain't any groups open. This happens quite often nowdays. This is only problem on healer chars, others can solo. Fair?

robertthebard

superbiquette wrote: »

support is not only for group , but i understand you just want people to play like you say.

While I appreciate the sentiment, I didn't design the game, nor did I implement the changes. As an added bonus, I've never called for them to be a thing either. If, instead, what you mean is "just want people to play the way the devs have made the game", then sure?

Truth be told, I'm following this more for my personal amusement than anything else. "But I shouldn't have to be in a group to play a healer" is hilarious, especially given all the other scenarios where one may not want to play in a group, and the responses given to those, perhaps even by people in this thread that are staging their revolt against required group play. "but you never used to have to" falls flat, because the new meta says otherwise. So it's a case of "adapt, or die". Isn't "The Meta" the gospel for "elite" MMO players?