Cyrodiil going forward

NeillMcAttack

How do we see Cyro in the future? What do you think the plan is, or is there a plan? Let's talk! TLDR at the end.

Firstly I wanna say that, outside prime time, when there are no ball groups present, Cyrodiil has been playing great for me. I'm a mostly solo player and have really enjoyed the changes and feel there is real potential in the Cyro playstyle that requires nurturing. What I mean by this, is there is a balance needed, between the insane power of groups v random's, a numbers game has to be played where we have proper performance and still feel we are a part of something big in the alliance war. To achieve this the devs need to start thinking, lets try help them. I want the Devs to be able to act in developing the meta, maintain good performance, instead of always reacting to issues whilst creating new ones. That is the real goal here.

It is my opinion that any real investment in maintaining Cyro as the core multiplayer of ESO will require a redesign or overhaul of the map, and how we think about grouping.

Lets start with grouping. One change I can think of that would add a lot of value to the Cyro experience is an 'Auto-grouping' feature. The goal of the feature would be to give value back to support players, give the players more control over their playstyle, and reduce the overt LFG spam in zone chat . In fact the LFG spam in zone is a good example of the value in this feature. Players don't really mind what kind of group they are in, they just want to play the game at some level near, just near, it's potential, and that can only happen in a group.
You simply pick an objective, and it pairs you with a group with the same goal, and changes that group on the fly, should you all not all choose the same objective again. Because right now, it could take dozens of random players to even have a chance against a coordinated group of only 5-6 in many cases, due to cross healing and buffs available. You could also be sorted with playstyles in mind, obv we have dd heal and tank, but you could also pick stuff like hardcore, front-line, initiator, objective based, hold ground, whatever you can think of. You could even have players that can auto group for exploring delves and getting skyshards, that wants help with town quests, etc. I can see myself escorting some dudes around town quest objectives if they shared them to relax a bit, or to farm some set pieces.
Personally I would limit the sizes of groups that can be formed in this manner. I think 6 players is more than enough to play the game at close to its full potential.

As a primarily solo player I used to love the random encounters I could have with friendly alliance members on any scale anywhere on the map. It would even sway me to pick certain skills over others if it meant I could keep a friendly alive. Nobodies playstyle has been sacrificed to a greater degree than mine, and the many others like me. A feature like this re-introduces this kind of gameplay given the current limitations in Cyro.

Next, we can't talk about Cyro without talking about ball groups. How are these even remotely balanced? You know there is a problem with ball groups when two ball groups of differing alliances in a keep will actively avoid each other and be content farming solo's, they are virtually invincible as the games only counter to them is for them to be grossly outnumbered, or to avoid them yourself. Like I mentioned earlier, I honestly think 12 is too much but it makes sense as that is the trial number. But the game needs to be balanced. We need a counter to purge or purge needs re-balanced. Purge spam for mobility is too advantageous. But I'm honestly not too sure about what changes can be made. Heal stacking just seems so obvious, but not having the devs even entertain it makes me think it's an engine limitation or some such idk. Maybe change the anti-cavalry morph of caltrops to have an increased range and scale its snare the amount of group members around you or something, and make it unpurgeable. Make these groups need to split up more often!

Finally the map, the map was originally designed with the goal of having hundreds of players on screen. That is simply not going to happen. So we have no real option than to change the map to fit the numbers. We also need to lower choke points, give more appealing options to get to objectives. The other night a group of coordinated DC camped the Alessia bridge for over 4 hours farming Randoms' of both the yellow and red. They were virtually invincible. and it killed the action on the map. The means of getting around these choke points are too limited and too punishing if your attempt to get around fails. Over-all the map needs a lot of quality over quantity. Keeps could be made bigger, a great deal more intricate, and allow more ways to get into the keep (grapple hook!! ). It needs to be scaled down IMO and we need to promote more large and small scale skirmish's across a more detailed map, with more desirable objectives.

What do people think?

TLDR; Are the players ready to consider big changes to the alliance war, in order to promote the kind of gameplay that we know Cyro can offer? If so, read and talk! Jebaited!

idk

Pretty sure ESO used to have a grouping feature for Cyrodiil. It wasn’t really used. Players still went with LFG.

relentless_turnip

I'm not a fan of a lot of these ideas tbh. I appreciate you enthusiasm though.

I like the idea of being able to grapple hook into a keep, but I think you should have to destroy a point in a tower or something to reveal the grappling point or else keeps will be full of gankers. Maybe the keep would have to be tagged or a mini objective has to be completed to reveal a grappling point. Like a lever hidden in a resource or something...

NeillMcAttack

idk wrote: »

Pretty sure ESO used to have a grouping feature for Cyrodiil. It wasn’t really used. Players still went with LFG.

I recall this "feature", I even recall trying to use it. It either never worked, or it never got used, or people weren't even aware of it.
If I'm cruising around Cyro, decide to head to Bruma say, and meet another alliance member, I often try to inv to grp only to see they are already in one. Now that group obviously has no real objective, so what is the point in it, these are the majority of groups in Cyro, that are dictated to by a crown indication. I think a feature like auto-grouping would improve the casual experience, allow players more independence, help move people around the map, and serve to promote more diverse fights around the map.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm not a fan of a lot of these ideas tbh. I appreciate you enthusiasm though.

I like the idea of being able to grapple hook into a keep, but I think you should have to destroy a point in a tower or something to reveal the grappling point or else keeps will be full of gankers. Maybe the keep would have to be tagged or a mini objective has to be completed to reveal a grappling point. Like a lever hidden in a resource or something...

Sure, a re-design of keeps would be needed, they could be bigger, perhaps only the first wall could be penetrated in this way, and if they are bigger the action would be more spread out, and an auto-grp feature would help against gankers.

As for stealth gankers, I also had an idea about stealth counters, in other games, much like this, the strength in stealth is having the initiation on your enemy. Why not have a new item, a trap, that can be placed, covers a decent area, and can only be seen if you have been out of stealth for a period of time and are in a particular range. Basically Sentry wards in Dota. What sentries do to counter stealth is allow you to take the advantage of initiation back. Anyway, that is likely a discussion for another day.

DigitalHype

Title is inaccurate. Cyrodiil is definitely going backwards.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I havent played true primetime yet this patch, but I will say that the performance seems to be better for me overall (after the hotfix). I also like the healing changes and I usually play solo.

I think the real issue is that ball groups definitely impact the server. I think the question that needs to be asked is how you discourage them without out right banning groups. People spamming LFG in zone arent the issue, because that doesnt result in a ball group. I think the answer lies in both limiting the power they have and making it easier for indvicidual players to at least disrupt them. Not saying your average joe should be able to 1 v 12 a ball group.

First thing I would do is delete Purge from the game. Second thing I might do is give siege a damage multiplier when it hits multiple people in the same group. Third thing would be to really restrict the number of group members a skill/set can affect, maybe 4 max.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

there is a grouping tool, i hope ur not surgesting with auto grouping that you are put in a group when entering, i would not go in then, i play solo unless with guild raids and have no issues, as to ball groups if they are where you are just leave, they are not intrested in the keep that much, they are more after farming 1 poor soul over an over again, most ball groups run away from each other and the map is fine i can get from one side to another very quickly

relentless_turnip

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I havent played true primetime yet this patch, but I will say that the performance seems to be better for me overall (after the hotfix). I also like the healing changes and I usually play solo.

I think the real issue is that ball groups definitely impact the server. I think the question that needs to be asked is how you discourage them without out right banning groups. People spamming LFG in zone arent the issue, because that doesnt result in a ball group. I think the answer lies in both limiting the power they have and making it easier for indvicidual players to at least disrupt them. Not saying your average joe should be able to 1 v 12 a ball group.

First thing I would do is delete Purge from the game. Second thing I might do is give siege a damage multiplier when it hits multiple people in the same group. Third thing would be to really restrict the number of group members a skill/set can affect, maybe 4 max.

I agree with these. I think individually you shouldn't be able to purge more than once every 8secs or so. So someone could spam purge, but it would be pointless. Also I think just stopping the same heals stacking would have a huge impact on ballgroups and not much effect on the rest of the population. Rapid regen has been a long time offender of this.

NeillMcAttack

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I havent played true primetime yet this patch, but I will say that the performance seems to be better for me overall (after the hotfix). I also like the healing changes and I usually play solo.

I think the real issue is that ball groups definitely impact the server. I think the question that needs to be asked is how you discourage them without out right banning groups. People spamming LFG in zone arent the issue, because that doesnt result in a ball group. I think the answer lies in both limiting the power they have and making it easier for indvicidual players to at least disrupt them. Not saying your average joe should be able to 1 v 12 a ball group.

First thing I would do is delete Purge from the game. Second thing I might do is give siege a damage multiplier when it hits multiple people in the same group. Third thing would be to really restrict the number of group members a skill/set can affect, maybe 4 max.

I agree with these. I think individually you shouldn't be able to purge more than once every 8secs or so. So someone could spam purge, but it would be pointless. Also I think just stopping the same heals stacking would have a huge impact on ballgroups and not much effect on the rest of the population. Rapid regen has been a long time offender of this.

Yea, these are solid solutions. I agree with them also. And like Fengrush said at one point. “Who is the dev defending regeneration?”. When I see those ball group beacons light up I just think to myself, ffs. Any damage thrown onto them is immediately shook off with at least 4-5 different ticks of this spell. It is almost an impossible feat to time burst onto these stacks, especially now.

Vlad9425

We need a Cyrodiil chapter which fixes the performance issues, gives us a new load screen, redesign some of the keeps to make them more unique, maybe some more siege weapons, and different icons for castles, keeps & forts to distinguish them. Also time for a new a PvP artifact like wabbajack or Auriels bow or something. Also I think destructible mile gates and bridges need removed from the game they suck.

NeillMcAttack

DigitalHype wrote: »

Title is inaccurate. Cyrodiil is definitely going backwards.

I think we all need to accept that they will not be putting stuff back on the client. Pre update 25 is not coming back, so we should really start talking about how to move forward. Cyro played really well today, though there was a point for a couple hours ball groups and lag took over.

I killed a small party at a resource at one point and I’m pretty sure I owe a lot of it to the fact that I have gotten used to playing in the lag. I have stopped switching bars too fast to cancel animations, instead waiting to make sure the skill went off, I make sure to fully break free before trying to move as I may get de-synced. Prime time should be fully playable, and the last patch was def a step in the right direction to achieving that.

relentless_turnip

It did work well tonight, but did as you say spike at one point. They need to perform maintenance every few days to keep at this near tolerable level. At least until they work a way to permanently improve it.

Ranger209

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I havent played true primetime yet this patch, but I will say that the performance seems to be better for me overall (after the hotfix). I also like the healing changes and I usually play solo.

I think the real issue is that ball groups definitely impact the server. I think the question that needs to be asked is how you discourage them without out right banning groups. People spamming LFG in zone arent the issue, because that doesnt result in a ball group. I think the answer lies in both limiting the power they have and making it easier for indvicidual players to at least disrupt them. Not saying your average joe should be able to 1 v 12 a ball group.

First thing I would do is delete Purge from the game. Second thing I might do is give siege a damage multiplier when it hits multiple people in the same group. Third thing would be to really restrict the number of group members a skill/set can affect, maybe 4 max.

I agree with these. I think individually you shouldn't be able to purge more than once every 8secs or so. So someone could spam purge, but it would be pointless. Also I think just stopping the same heals stacking would have a huge impact on ballgroups and not much effect on the rest of the population. Rapid regen has been a long time offender of this.

Yea, these are solid solutions. I agree with them also. And like Fengrush said at one point. “Who is the dev defending regeneration?”. When I see those ball group beacons light up I just think to myself, ffs. Any damage thrown onto them is immediately shook off with at least 4-5 different ticks of this spell. It is almost an impossible feat to time burst onto these stacks, especially now.

Right?!? I mean it used to be healing springs they all spammed, ground based and stacks on stacks. When they got rid of the ability for that skill to do that I thought we were going down the right path, but instead they just replaced it with Rapid Regen which is probably even worse than springs from a server stress standpoint.

NeillMcAttack

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

there is a grouping tool, i hope ur not surgesting with auto grouping that you are put in a group when entering, i would not go in then, i play solo unless with guild raids and have no issues, as to ball groups if they are where you are just leave, they are not intrested in the keep that much, they are more after farming 1 poor soul over an over again, most ball groups run away from each other and the map is fine i can get from one side to another very quickly

No you of course wouldn’t be forced to group with others, there would be no reason to do so because we know, after the tests, and with the current performance, that solo players have the least effect on performance.

As for the map, it promotes one dimensional gameplay, head to front with the Zerg, this doesn’t help performance, moving strategically on the map is too high risk, for what is possibly zero reward. The devs are aware that spreading players out helps improve performance, that is the reason they made cropsford and the other towns capture-able, and added the outposts connecting the outer keeps.
If I l, as a red, take drakelowe, then crospford. I will, 99.9 times out of 100, port back to the front line, there is nowhere else to go that I know I won’t just spend 10mins travelling, only to get outnumbered quickly and have little chance of meeting allies, just to end up on the frontline anyway.

Gythral

DigitalHype wrote: »

Title is inaccurate. Cyrodiil is definitely going backwards.

very rapidly (at present)

NeillMcAttack

I think people are starting to realize that the current Cyro map’s design and gameplay philosophy are no longer viable (unless we see a u-turn on all processes being server side), and no longer even realistic that it can be maintained. 2021, with the chapter being set around Cyro and oblivion is the perfect time to make the necessary changes to evolve Cyro gameplay, while trying to maintain the kind of gameplay we have all come to love.

TequilaFire

And what if the kind of gameplay we have come to love to play is organized groups?
Solutions that don't fix it for all are no solutions at all.

NeillMcAttack

TequilaFire wrote: »

And what if the kind of gameplay we have come to love to play is organized groups?
Solutions that don't fix it for all are no solutions at all.

I assume you are in full support of re-instating 24 man groups and alliance cross healing then? As I would be tbh, but sadly, the game doesn’t work any longer with these features. It just can not handle it. But it is a place that I would like ZOS build towards and there is nothing in my thread that suggests I wouldn’t like that to still exist.

Can you remember what the performance was like post U25 and prior to these limitations?

TequilaFire

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

And what if the kind of gameplay we have come to love to play is organized groups?
Solutions that don't fix it for all are no solutions at all.

I assume you are in full support of re-instating 24 man groups and alliance cross healing then? As I would be tbh, but sadly, the game doesn’t work any longer with these features. It just can not handle it. But it is a place that I would like ZOS build towards and there is nothing in my thread that suggests I wouldn’t like that to still exist.

Can you remember what the performance was like post U25 and prior to these limitations?

No I like the 12 man groups makes it equal to a trial group in Cyro.
But I am for giving back the ability to solo players to heal each other in the same alliance.
As to remembering play I remember all the way back to closed beta.

NeillMcAttack

TequilaFire wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

And what if the kind of gameplay we have come to love to play is organized groups?
Solutions that don't fix it for all are no solutions at all.

I assume you are in full support of re-instating 24 man groups and alliance cross healing then? As I would be tbh, but sadly, the game doesn’t work any longer with these features. It just can not handle it. But it is a place that I would like ZOS build towards and there is nothing in my thread that suggests I wouldn’t like that to still exist.

Can you remember what the performance was like post U25 and prior to these limitations?

No I like the 12 man groups makes it equal to a trial group in Cyro.
But I am for giving back the ability to solo players to heal each other in the same alliance.
As to remembering play I remember all the way back to closed beta.

I’m talking much more recently, with cross alliance healing, the game currently doesn’t function. Remember?

What about all those players that want 24 man groups back? I thought solutions that don’t suit everyone were no solutions at all? Honestly I don’t feel like you are trying here, it seems you are only interested in one playstyle and will defend it regardless of taking other playstyles or even the core functionality of the game into account.

TequilaFire

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

And what if the kind of gameplay we have come to love to play is organized groups?
Solutions that don't fix it for all are no solutions at all.

I assume you are in full support of re-instating 24 man groups and alliance cross healing then? As I would be tbh, but sadly, the game doesn’t work any longer with these features. It just can not handle it. But it is a place that I would like ZOS build towards and there is nothing in my thread that suggests I wouldn’t like that to still exist.

Can you remember what the performance was like post U25 and prior to these limitations?

No I like the 12 man groups makes it equal to a trial group in Cyro.
But I am for giving back the ability to solo players to heal each other in the same alliance.
As to remembering play I remember all the way back to closed beta.

I’m talking much more recently, with cross alliance healing, the game currently doesn’t function. Remember?

What about all those players that want 24 man groups back? I thought solutions that don’t suit everyone were no solutions at all? Honestly I don’t feel like you are trying here, it seems you are only interested in one playstyle and will defend it regardless of taking other playstyles or even the core functionality of the game into account.

You seem overly fascinated with me, but I also play solo from time to time.
If you mean I don't agree with your continued blaming groups for the technical problems of a game based on groups yep, I am not trying to understand.

NeillMcAttack

TequilaFire wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

And what if the kind of gameplay we have come to love to play is organized groups?
Solutions that don't fix it for all are no solutions at all.

I assume you are in full support of re-instating 24 man groups and alliance cross healing then? As I would be tbh, but sadly, the game doesn’t work any longer with these features. It just can not handle it. But it is a place that I would like ZOS build towards and there is nothing in my thread that suggests I wouldn’t like that to still exist.

Can you remember what the performance was like post U25 and prior to these limitations?

No I like the 12 man groups makes it equal to a trial group in Cyro.
But I am for giving back the ability to solo players to heal each other in the same alliance.
As to remembering play I remember all the way back to closed beta.

I’m talking much more recently, with cross alliance healing, the game currently doesn’t function. Remember?

What about all those players that want 24 man groups back? I thought solutions that don’t suit everyone were no solutions at all? Honestly I don’t feel like you are trying here, it seems you are only interested in one playstyle and will defend it regardless of taking other playstyles or even the core functionality of the game into account.

You seem overly fascinated with me, but I also play solo from time to time.
If you mean I don't agree with your continued blaming groups for the technical problems of a game based on groups yep, I am not trying to understand.

Point out where I have blamed players for Update 25.
You are living in a fantasy world, arguing points I have never brought up, and not addressing anything regarding the topic of discussion. I guess you wish to remain willfully ignorant of the realities of the game. You do you I guess.