Will we ever get back to "play the way you want"? PvE version

CaffeinatedMayhem

Since we're back on the Stamina is king train ... AGAIN... are the devs ever going to get it right, where all magicka and all stamina builds are mostly equal?
I'm referring to things like... Magplar DPS in vet trials. I haven't seen one in ages. Magden DPS in vet trials, I'm the only one in my 2 PvE guilds. Templar and Sorc tanks (there are some but it's not common), NB and DK healers (more than there used to be but still not common), DK DPS, and the list goes on.

Yes, it is possible to play any build on any class, but on some, DPS is limited (if you can do 80k on a magicka warden, great. Most people can't even do a measly 35k) Templar tanking is possible, but it has a lot of drawbacks. DK and NB healing is possible, even in vet trials, but only very dedicated healers use these classes. I get tired of seeing the same group compositions in every trial.

furiouslog

You can play the way you want now! But you'll suck if you choose the wrong way.

I still play mostly on my main, which is a magplar, in all endgame content. It means I won't ever be getting in any sweaty trial groups for sure, but I don't care because it's what I like to play, and I can still help teams clear regular vet trials and stay relevant. I also do fine in DLC HM dungeons.

I sure do miss the days of the DOT meta though.

I guess I just wish that they'd finally get it right somehow.

redspecter23

Outside of absolute min/max and score pushers, the classes are fairly balanced all things considered.

Now if you are talking about score pushing, there will always be a meta that players gravitate toward. If it's all stamina now, I'm sure we will get back to a point where it will be all magicka eventually. All it takes is a mag set that is ahead of the curve or a few tweaks to magicka skills or abilities. I don't think it's as huge a difference between specs in ESO as you might see in many other games.

Aptonoth

Not with pvp messing up the game balance. It’s got to go Jim. Mixed mmo’s are notorious for being harder to balance. BDO is pvp almost anywhere it’s where pvp mmo fans should go. Eso and pve mmo;s need to drop pvp support or have a casual battlegrounds that isn’t taken seriously outside the occasional lark.

Edit
That or have completely separate pvp and pve balancing.

preevious

You know a poll is biased when you can't anser anything ..

But seriously, that post is a bit sad.
You CAN play anything you want, and you WON'T suck as long as you're decently competent.

The difference between playstyles is low enough so that only leaderboard-highend guilds have to follow the meta. (and then .. they'll vary to get buffs/debuffs)
It's also low enough so that only the best of the best are going to notice a difference.

Starlock

You can play the way you want now! But you'll suck if you choose the wrong way.

preevious wrote: »

You know a poll is biased when you can't anser anything ..

But seriously, that post is a bit sad.
You CAN play anything you want, and you WON'T suck as long as you're decently competent.

The difference between playstyles is low enough so that only leaderboard-highend guilds have to follow the meta. (and then .. they'll vary to get buffs/debuffs)
It's also low enough so that only the best of the best are going to notice a difference.

^ This ^

Everest_Lionheart

I had to make a MagDK to play with a couple of prog groups while leaving my Stamden on the sidelines for months. Now I get to actually choose between mag or stam for some trials now instead of riding the mag train I to the sunset.

For what it’s worth I’ve also got a magplar and a stamblade. Options at last. This is a welcome change for me.

Dusk_Coven

Yes, the devs will make all classes viable for all roles again.

How is it fun if you have to redo your toon or make a new one just to do a vet trial? There should be more viability at endgame.
That said, part of the problem is the players. Maybe some of the builds are actually viable but everyone's afraid to fail so no matter what they will peer pressure people into meta builds.

Dusk_Coven

Yes, the devs will make all classes viable for all roles again.

Another problem is that players who insist on meta builds then also insist on setting the difficulty bar for achievements.
This just ends up reducing the viable builds for endgame achievements. When the window for success is very small, people start playing math and then get upset when everyone else doesn't do the same to contribute to success.

Basically, it's the fault of players. Especially "veteran" and "endgame" elitists.

Colecovision

What's the source for testing here? Mag has been pve king for a long time. Where was the changeover announcement? Is it really all stamina or just a class or two?

AlnilamE

You can play the way you want now! But you'll suck if you choose the wrong way.

Vet trials are not the measure we should go by.

If min/maxing is "playing the way you want" for you, that is your choice.

There is no balancing of the game unless they make everyone do 5k DPS and 2k HPS regardless of that they are doing. And that's not going to happen and it would be boring if they did.

Austinseph1

You can play the way you want now! But you'll suck if you choose the wrong way.

Skill is an adequate replacement for whatever build you want, if people can beat vMA with only light attacks and no cp or gear then you can do just fine with any reasonable build. 30k on a 6 mil will get you through anything except score pushing and godslayer achievements. That translates to about 60-65k on a 22 mil. 65k is perfectly attainable with almost any reasonable build. Especially with new debuffs on the raid dummy coming.

CaffeinatedMayhem

You can play the way you want now! But you'll suck if you choose the wrong way.

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Skill is an adequate replacement for whatever build you want, if people can beat vMA with only light attacks and no cp or gear then you can do just fine with any reasonable build. 30k on a 6 mil will get you through anything except score pushing and godslayer achievements. That translates to about 60-65k on a 22 mil. 65k is perfectly attainable with almost any reasonable build. Especially with new debuffs on the raid dummy coming.

Ok. Take an 810 magicka warden with no cp gear and 2 fire staves into vMA and show me your clear.

Also, getting 35k on a magden takes a lot of work, Alcast’s build won’t do it unless you can ani-cancel perfectly, every time, and never get lag. I live in the real world, and use an very non meta rotation and slightly off meta build. Most players won’t bother with that, and I can guarantee you no one is going to roll a new magden dps to apply minor brittle.

35k may get you through stuff, but it’s not the easiest.

Guyle

I mean I've been rocking my stamDK for years now, and have completed almost all end game pve content on it, with the exception of vCR+3 which my core group is going to now start working on. Unless you are in a score pushing or trifecta chasing group, you can literally bring anything you want and do fine, if not excel.

CaffeinatedMayhem

You can play the way you want now! But you'll suck if you choose the wrong way.

AlnilamE wrote: »

Vet trials are not the measure we should go by.

If min/maxing is "playing the way you want" for you, that is your choice.

There is no balancing of the game unless they make everyone do 5k DPS and 2k HPS regardless of that they are doing. And that's not going to happen and it would be boring if they did.

Ok so is one class doing dps super easy to hit top numbers and other classes getting no where close balanced? No. If group finder magsorcs have 20k, and group finder magdens do 10k, that’s a big difference. And I’m not even bringing up the large difference between stamina and magicka versions of the same class.

Guyle

And no, we aren't on a stamina is king, everyone is only going to rock stam toons train. Go try and signup for a vCR+3 or a vAS+2 on your stam toon and see what the raid lead says.

CaffeinatedMayhem

You can play the way you want now! But you'll suck if you choose the wrong way.

Guyle wrote: »

I mean I've been rocking my stamDK for years now, and have completed almost all end game pve content on it, with the exception of vCR+3 which my core group is going to now start working on. Unless you are in a score pushing or trifecta chasing group, you can literally bring anything you want and do fine, if not excel.

That’s interesting. I’ve been in 8 different end game groups as a tank. Whenever I DPS fill I’ve been told by the raid leads they bend the rules so my magden can participate. Until Medusa was buffed, I couldn’t do the required 35k. But I’m good at mechanics and it’s only a fill.

Interesting that all these “rules” don’t seem to matter if it’s certain people...

CaffeinatedMayhem

You can play the way you want now! But you'll suck if you choose the wrong way.

Guyle wrote: »

And no, we aren't on a stamina is king, everyone is only going to rock stam toons train. Go try and signup for a vCR+3 or a vAS+2 on your stam toon and see what the raid lead says.

If you do enough dps they say fine. There are stam toons in my guilds that have full achievements for vCR and vAS. Just more work to manage mechanics.

Guyle

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Guyle wrote: »

I mean I've been rocking my stamDK for years now, and have completed almost all end game pve content on it, with the exception of vCR+3 which my core group is going to now start working on. Unless you are in a score pushing or trifecta chasing group, you can literally bring anything you want and do fine, if not excel.

That’s interesting. I’ve been in 8 different end game groups as a tank. Whenever I DPS fill I’ve been told by the raid leads they bend the rules so my magden can participate. Until Medusa was buffed, I couldn’t do the required 35k. But I’m good at mechanics and it’s only a fill.

Interesting that all these “rules” don’t seem to matter if it’s certain people...

Well, tbh the rules should only ever be a guideline and exceptions should be made. The reason I am able to bring my stamDK to all the different trials I do, is because I started doing raids on it a couple years ago, and have stuck with it, and I ran a trial every tuesday night for a year on it, and we started using hodor's and ppl saw my dps and saw my death count, and realized I was competent enough on it to be able to carry my weight in trials where if someone they didn't know said they were bringing stamDK theyd have said aww heII no. At the same time though, I am not going to be signing up for an Immortal Redeemer prog group on it lol

Grandchamp1989

You can play the way you want now! But you'll suck if you choose the wrong way.

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Since we're back on the Stamina is king train ... AGAIN... are the devs ever going to get it right, where all magicka and all stamina builds are mostly equal?
I'm referring to things like... Magplar DPS in vet trials. I haven't seen one in ages. Magden DPS in vet trials, I'm the only one in my 2 PvE guilds. Templar and Sorc tanks (there are some but it's not common), NB and DK healers (more than there used to be but still not common), DK DPS, and the list goes on.

Yes, it is possible to play any build on any class, but on some, DPS is limited (if you can do 80k on a magicka warden, great. Most people can't even do a measly 35k) Templar tanking is possible, but it has a lot of drawbacks. DK and NB healing is possible, even in vet trials, but only very dedicated healers use these classes. I get tired of seeing the same group compositions in every trial.

I have no idea how people play Warden in PVE.
It's great i PvP but I can only do 21k on the 3mill with both stam and magicka.
It's such an awkward PvE character and the bear is beyond derp and only sustain is from the netch as the passive sustain help suck ass. Also the major buff nerfs will hit them hard.

I got a templar tank and you need to slap a lot of crutches on them like Leeching or Winter's Respite to perform anywhere near what a base DK or Warden templar can do. And Templar DD is just castrated to all heck. They'll even get the 10% light attack nerf for being "ranged" even though their spammable force them into melee range, it's so messed up.

DK is just.. there lol They tank real good though.

Zos got some real work on their hands to bring the classes back in line.

rpa

You can play the way you want now! But you'll suck if you choose the wrong way.

One man's suck is another man's good enough.

Tandor

Competitive players can never expect to play the way they want, whereas non-competitive players can always play the way they want.

Of course, people like to believe that the phrase "Play the way you like" was always about choices like stamina or magicka, or one class over another, whereas the description on the back of the original box was:-

"PLAY THE WAY YOU LIKE
Adventure alone or together with friends.
The choice is yours to make."

While by One Tamriel the description on the back of the box had changed to:-

"PLAY THE WAY YOU LIKE
Battle, craft, fish, steal, siege, or explore. The choice
is yours to make in a persistent Elder Scrolls world."

Raideen

You can play the way you want now! But you'll suck if you choose the wrong way.

This thread bums me out. I play magicka universally, except for my farming toon. Mag Templar is my new main. To think that class/spec is getting nerfed is saddening.

VaranisArano

Tandor wrote: »

Competitive players can never expect to play the way they want, whereas non-competitive players can always play the way they want.

Of course, people like to believe that the phrase "Play the way you like" was always about choices like stamina or magicka, or one class over another, whereas the description on the back of the original box was:-

"PLAY THE WAY YOU LIKE
Adventure alone or together with friends.
The choice is yours to make."

While by One Tamriel the description on the back of the box had changed to:-

"PLAY THE WAY YOU LIKE
Battle, craft, fish, steal, siege, or explore. The choice
is yours to make in a persistent Elder Scrolls world."

And the latest version the Devs defined was: "One of our mantras for ESO is "play the way you want," and in this case, it means any class can fulfill any role (tank, dps, support/healer)... To be clear, our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines."

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

I think that last bit speaks to the conflict expressed in this thread. "Viable, not necessarily optimal."

Everest_Lionheart

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Since we're back on the Stamina is king train ... AGAIN... are the devs ever going to get it right, where all magicka and all stamina builds are mostly equal?
I'm referring to things like... Magplar DPS in vet trials. I haven't seen one in ages. Magden DPS in vet trials, I'm the only one in my 2 PvE guilds. Templar and Sorc tanks (there are some but it's not common), NB and DK healers (more than there used to be but still not common), DK DPS, and the list goes on.

Yes, it is possible to play any build on any class, but on some, DPS is limited (if you can do 80k on a magicka warden, great. Most people can't even do a measly 35k) Templar tanking is possible, but it has a lot of drawbacks. DK and NB healing is possible, even in vet trials, but only very dedicated healers use these classes. I get tired of seeing the same group compositions in every trial.

I have no idea how people play Warden in PVE.
It's great i PvP but I can only do 21k on the 3mill with both stam and magicka.
It's such an awkward PvE character and the bear is beyond derp and only sustain is from the netch as the passive sustain help suck ass. Also the major buff nerfs will hit them hard.

I got a templar tank and you need to slap a lot of crutches on them like Leeching or Winter's Respite to perform anywhere near what a base DK or Warden templar can do. And Templar DD is just castrated to all heck. They'll even get the 10% light attack nerf for being "ranged" even though their spammable force them into melee range, it's so messed up.

DK is just.. there lol They tank real good though.

Zos got some real work on their hands to bring the classes back in line.

I play Stamden and the class itself is One of the most fun and dynamic classes with plenty of skills to overcome your shortcomings. My average parses come it around 58K and that’s without bloodthirsty jewelry or nirnhoned main hand and an off trait monster set. My last actual parse was around CP660, I am 700 now and waiting for the nirnhoned research to finish before running another test.

I will say this there is a lot going on when parsing and even more when trying to do mechanics in a raid. To get the most out of the class your sub assault needs to hit every 3rd skill, that means extra swapping in your back bar rotations. The spamable also has a modifier for off balance where you literally drop everything including sub assault and hit your spamable as many times as you can (7 max) to stack additional bleeds. Your netch and trap are dynamically cast to stretch the damage even further, but you can get away with a static rotation and give up 3-4K damage for an easier time and use Rapid strikes as your spamable instead. You will end up over casting trap by a few seconds but it’s a buff you absolutely need up. And it’s easy to miss in dynamic rotation without add ons. I play on XB1 so trying to read the numbers in all the boxes above and below the boss plus watch for off balance plus get those interrupts because you are melee, plus block, plus whatever other mechs are going on, yeah Stamden gets hectic and you are gonna get sweaty, but it’s so worth it.

I’m looking forward to the sub assault change though. This is going to massively simplify the dynamic portion of the rotation and change up the rhythm a bit. My feeling is that it will play like stamplar. Sub assault, 5 skills, repeat. Only the with the stamplar you are spamming jabs, warden you’ll have SA plus 2 other skills plus 3x spams followed by SA swap 2 or 3 backbar skills swap 2 or 3 spams and repeat. This is such a game changer for warden.

NeillMcAttack

Why bother? You never played how you wanted anyway. You played how some pro's hitting dummies told you would be optimal under the very limited circumstance of standing perfectly still hitting said dummy.

NeillMcAttack

Raideen wrote: »

This thread bums me out. I play magicka universally, except for my farming toon. Mag Templar is my new main. To think that class/spec is getting nerfed is saddening.

You are not getting nerfed, as a matter of fact, under optimal circumstances, which the dummy has always been a rough but satisfactory example of. Your DPS is going up, everyone's is. These people whining are like supporters of professional football teams, they support magicka, and now that stam are ahead under the most optimal of circumstances, which I might add, is more difficult to achieve as stamina, are going to make irrational complaints, because their bias is itself irrational.

valeriiya

You can play the way you want now! But you'll suck if you choose the wrong way.

My main is a Mag DK and I love it but there's definitely end game content I don't get invited to and that's fine. The idea of grinding a new character and farming gear for an end game trial sounds miserable to me.

Luckylancer

No. Deal with it and make a stamina DPS.

This game is so easy you cant tank with bow/bow. You can play the way you want If you want to be the best, do what bests do. Stop spending time in forum and max out the class your trial group want from you.

Tandor

VaranisArano wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Competitive players can never expect to play the way they want, whereas non-competitive players can always play the way they want.

Of course, people like to believe that the phrase "Play the way you like" was always about choices like stamina or magicka, or one class over another, whereas the description on the back of the original box was:-

"PLAY THE WAY YOU LIKE
Adventure alone or together with friends.
The choice is yours to make."

While by One Tamriel the description on the back of the box had changed to:-

"PLAY THE WAY YOU LIKE
Battle, craft, fish, steal, siege, or explore. The choice
is yours to make in a persistent Elder Scrolls world."

And the latest version the Devs defined was: "One of our mantras for ESO is "play the way you want," and in this case, it means any class can fulfill any role (tank, dps, support/healer)... To be clear, our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines."

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

I think that last bit speaks to the conflict expressed in this thread. "Viable, not necessarily optimal."

Thanks for reminding me of that update. It sounds reasonable to me. No balancing will ever be perfect, nor will it ever be matched to every player's own skill level. "Viable, but not necessarily optimal" seems to me to be a fair compromise between what any competitive player may want and any competent developer can deliver.

Vorpan

I've always played what I want, how I want. *shrug*