Can't decide between khajiit or bosmer (wood elf) for strictly PvP stamblade.

Nyladreas

One of the main reasons I cannot decide are the khajiit racials.

Seeing that critical resistance is a huge factor in PvP would it even be worth it to have extra critical damage instead of mobility and penetration (which directly translates to more damage done)??

On the other hand just playing around with the numbers on PTS khajiit can get insanely high crits (more than double damage) but I feel like I need to specifically build towards more crit chance to really utilize its full potential.

Can anyone help me out with this one please?

AMeanOne

Bosmer

Nyladreas

AMeanOne wrote: »

Bosmer

Can you Elaborate on why specifically Bosmer?

colossalvoids

I'd say 100% bosmer, you have all you need there. Khajiit have some niche use but nothing crucial.

Dojohoda

Just throwing this in case it is important to your decision and because penetration is mentioned:: Unless they decide to change this, nightblade will lose flank damage and get penetration.

Master Assassin: This passive now increases your Physical and Spell Penetration against targets you are flanking by 1487/2974, rather than your Weapon and Spell Damage against them by 129/258.

Edit:I forgot to add the source of the quote: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6958367/#Comment_6958367

itscompton

I like the Bosmer because of the speed boost and the recovery. However if you can hit 50% crit chance the extra crit damage of the Khajit will be a really nice boost in damage. Most people in PvP have enough crit resist to negate 40-50% of the extra damage, so if you've got your crit damage modifier up to 100% people will still take 50% more damage from a crit than a non-crit.

pod88kk

Personally I'd go for bosmer, I feel like their racial passives are a huge benefit on Stamblades

Kurat

Pick what you visually like because races will most likely change in future patches or BiS races at least due to other combat, cp, gear changes. Zos likes to go yolo every patch.

Ratzkifal

Bosmer are definitely more flexible if you already decided to go stamina only.
Malacath's band of brutality makes Khajiit racials kind of pointless but Bosmer have the option to use it or not whenever they see fit.
The stamina sustain for Bosmer is very high, which comes in handy especially in noCP where sustain is low although, Redguards are better, in CP they get to shine even more and overtake Redguards' sustain on most builds. Their additional penetration after dodgerolling is also quite useful if you are planning on dodgerolling a lot.
The poison resistance Bosmer get is useful against Sheer Venom, Venomous Smite as well as Poison Injection, Toxic Barrage, StamDKs, and Subassault which are all quite dangerous, although its usefulness shouldn't be overestimated either.

Lastly we need to talk about Hunter's Eye.
If you dodgeroll a lot in PvP then Bosmer have a nice small powerboost from their penetration and the additional movementspeed is useful too.
However the detection is useless. 3meters are nothing and will not actually make a big difference. There are no points in PvP where a stealthed player can avoid you at a 6m radius but not at 9m. Aside from that it actually makes you more easily detected, which is a detriment if you want to go for a stealthy playstyle yourself. I can elaborate on that more if needed.

By comparison the Khajiiti stealth bonus is a lot more useful and noticeable to you and if you are planning on using Cloak for guaranteed crits then the damage bonus Khajiit get does come in handy as well. Also keep in mind that impenetrable has been nerfed considerably so crit is actually more viable in PvP now than it has ever been.

Nyladreas

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Bosmer are definitely more flexible if you already decided to go stamina only.
Malacath's band of brutality makes Khajiit racials kind of pointless but Bosmer have the option to use it or not whenever they see fit.
The stamina sustain for Bosmer is very high, which comes in handy especially in noCP where sustain is low although, Redguards are better, in CP they get to shine even more and overtake Redguards' sustain on most builds. Their additional penetration after dodgerolling is also quite useful if you are planning on dodgerolling a lot.
The poison resistance Bosmer get is useful against Sheer Venom, Venomous Smite as well as Poison Injection, Toxic Barrage, StamDKs, and Subassault which are all quite dangerous, although its usefulness shouldn't be overestimated either.

Lastly we need to talk about Hunter's Eye.
If you dodgeroll a lot in PvP then Bosmer have a nice small powerboost from their penetration and the additional movementspeed is useful too.
However the detection is useless. 3meters are nothing and will not actually make a big difference. There are no points in PvP where a stealthed player can avoid you at a 6m radius but not at 9m. Aside from that it actually makes you more easily detected, which is a detriment if you want to go for a stealthy playstyle yourself. I can elaborate on that more if needed.

By comparison the Khajiiti stealth bonus is a lot more useful and noticeable to you and if you are planning on using Cloak for guaranteed crits then the damage bonus Khajiit get does come in handy as well. Also keep in mind that impenetrable has been nerfed considerably so crit is actually more viable in PvP now than it has ever been.

Thank you for this awesome thorough explanation of the races on given subject. I guess I'll be sticking with bosmer for now then.

You and all the other folks above just saved me 3500 crowns.

JobooAGS

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Bosmer are definitely more flexible if you already decided to go stamina only.
Malacath's band of brutality makes Khajiit racials kind of pointless but Bosmer have the option to use it or not whenever they see fit.
The stamina sustain for Bosmer is very high, which comes in handy especially in noCP where sustain is low although, Redguards are better, in CP they get to shine even more and overtake Redguards' sustain on most builds. Their additional penetration after dodgerolling is also quite useful if you are planning on dodgerolling a lot.
The poison resistance Bosmer get is useful against Sheer Venom, Venomous Smite as well as Poison Injection, Toxic Barrage, StamDKs, and Subassault which are all quite dangerous, although its usefulness shouldn't be overestimated either.

Lastly we need to talk about Hunter's Eye.
If you dodgeroll a lot in PvP then Bosmer have a nice small powerboost from their penetration and the additional movementspeed is useful too.
However the detection is useless. 3meters are nothing and will not actually make a big difference. There are no points in PvP where a stealthed player can avoid you at a 6m radius but not at 9m. Aside from that it actually makes you more easily detected, which is a detriment if you want to go for a stealthy playstyle yourself. I can elaborate on that more if needed.

By comparison the Khajiiti stealth bonus is a lot more useful and noticeable to you and if you are planning on using Cloak for guaranteed crits then the damage bonus Khajiit get does come in handy as well. Also keep in mind that impenetrable has been nerfed considerably so crit is actually more viable in PvP now than it has ever been.

I entirely disagree with redguards being better than Bosmer for sustain even in no cp, especially on stamblade and even more so with the endurance changes.

Starlight_Whisper

Do you want to roll dodge for racial passive?

geonsocal

until we get some cool tail armor, go bosmer...

zaria

geonsocal wrote: »

until we get some cool tail armor, go bosmer...

Argonians and Khajiit want mythic tail armor.

Starlight_Whisper

geonsocal wrote: »

until we get some cool tail armor, go bosmer...

Would willing buy that... just saying

faeeichenlaub

There is a lot of pushback on the Bosmer racial passive change to stealth detection vs. how it was with Stealth detectability resistance. Many are loath to put points into it because yes, a stealthed NB can detect that they are being detected to know an enemy NB is nearby. But I can tell you the passive has saved my Bosmer butt many times in PVP by finding a nightblade perched on a nearby rock that I myself planned to stalk from.

With the detect passive, you can typically back off the target before they realize it to react... they may be checking map etc. And not realize they have been pinged. and you can then plan accordingly to either go on offense with a snare, or disengage alert your group to the threat etc.

Juhasow

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The stamina sustain for Bosmer is very high, which comes in handy especially in noCP where sustain is low although, Redguards are better, in CP they get to shine even more and overtake Redguards' sustain on most builds.

Umm what ? Redguard is a trash race compared to wood elf when it comes to sustain in real PvP fights. That goes for both CP and no CP PvP.

Flaaklypa

Bosmer is just straight up better in every regard. even when you crit, as a bosmer you will do more damage,

the recovery means more bash cancel/rolle dodge = more damage

speed bonus after dodge, great to run away in hard, outnumbered fights, but also great to hunt down players running away from you

more max stam = more weapon damage = more damage

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

just go bosmer on ur 2 hander nb with a bow, reason are two handed skills and bow skills are not effect by cool downs, even though most bow skills have a single target overtime ticks, and for bosmer since it has posion resistances, both pve and inparticular pvp is nothing more than posions at mo

Ratzkifal

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Bosmer are definitely more flexible if you already decided to go stamina only.
Malacath's band of brutality makes Khajiit racials kind of pointless but Bosmer have the option to use it or not whenever they see fit.
The stamina sustain for Bosmer is very high, which comes in handy especially in noCP where sustain is low although, Redguards are better, in CP they get to shine even more and overtake Redguards' sustain on most builds. Their additional penetration after dodgerolling is also quite useful if you are planning on dodgerolling a lot.
The poison resistance Bosmer get is useful against Sheer Venom, Venomous Smite as well as Poison Injection, Toxic Barrage, StamDKs, and Subassault which are all quite dangerous, although its usefulness shouldn't be overestimated either.

Lastly we need to talk about Hunter's Eye.
If you dodgeroll a lot in PvP then Bosmer have a nice small powerboost from their penetration and the additional movementspeed is useful too.
However the detection is useless. 3meters are nothing and will not actually make a big difference. There are no points in PvP where a stealthed player can avoid you at a 6m radius but not at 9m. Aside from that it actually makes you more easily detected, which is a detriment if you want to go for a stealthy playstyle yourself. I can elaborate on that more if needed.

By comparison the Khajiiti stealth bonus is a lot more useful and noticeable to you and if you are planning on using Cloak for guaranteed crits then the damage bonus Khajiit get does come in handy as well. Also keep in mind that impenetrable has been nerfed considerably so crit is actually more viable in PvP now than it has ever been.

I entirely disagree with redguards being better than Bosmer for sustain even in no cp, especially on stamblade and even more so with the endurance changes.

Juhasow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The stamina sustain for Bosmer is very high, which comes in handy especially in noCP where sustain is low although, Redguards are better, in CP they get to shine even more and overtake Redguards' sustain on most builds.

Umm what ? Redguard is a trash race compared to wood elf when it comes to sustain in real PvP fights. That goes for both CP and no CP PvP.

I can't really speak from experience because I don't play Redguard but the math I did puts Redguards ahead of Bosmer in noCP on builds that use at least two weapon abilities, which a lot of builds do. Especially stamsorcs. Also Bosmer get their sustain bonus denied whenever they block or sprint while Redguards can always get stamina back from their passive.

You are right about the Endurance changes though, Bosmer will benefit from them a lot more, but those are not live yet. So until then it's a pretty close call in noCP. Redguards are better on dualwield and bow setups while Bosmer are ahead on twohanded weapons because of the recovery bonuses.
Since this is a Stamblade specific thread you are probably right about Bosmer having better sustain if they go with Surprise Attack with a twohanded, but Redguard should be better on a Twin Slashes build.

JobooAGS

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Bosmer are definitely more flexible if you already decided to go stamina only.
Malacath's band of brutality makes Khajiit racials kind of pointless but Bosmer have the option to use it or not whenever they see fit.
The stamina sustain for Bosmer is very high, which comes in handy especially in noCP where sustain is low although, Redguards are better, in CP they get to shine even more and overtake Redguards' sustain on most builds. Their additional penetration after dodgerolling is also quite useful if you are planning on dodgerolling a lot.
The poison resistance Bosmer get is useful against Sheer Venom, Venomous Smite as well as Poison Injection, Toxic Barrage, StamDKs, and Subassault which are all quite dangerous, although its usefulness shouldn't be overestimated either.

Lastly we need to talk about Hunter's Eye.
If you dodgeroll a lot in PvP then Bosmer have a nice small powerboost from their penetration and the additional movementspeed is useful too.
However the detection is useless. 3meters are nothing and will not actually make a big difference. There are no points in PvP where a stealthed player can avoid you at a 6m radius but not at 9m. Aside from that it actually makes you more easily detected, which is a detriment if you want to go for a stealthy playstyle yourself. I can elaborate on that more if needed.

By comparison the Khajiiti stealth bonus is a lot more useful and noticeable to you and if you are planning on using Cloak for guaranteed crits then the damage bonus Khajiit get does come in handy as well. Also keep in mind that impenetrable has been nerfed considerably so crit is actually more viable in PvP now than it has ever been.

I entirely disagree with redguards being better than Bosmer for sustain even in no cp, especially on stamblade and even more so with the endurance changes.

Juhasow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The stamina sustain for Bosmer is very high, which comes in handy especially in noCP where sustain is low although, Redguards are better, in CP they get to shine even more and overtake Redguards' sustain on most builds.

Umm what ? Redguard is a trash race compared to wood elf when it comes to sustain in real PvP fights. That goes for both CP and no CP PvP.

I can't really speak from experience because I don't play Redguard but the math I did puts Redguards ahead of Bosmer in noCP on builds that use at least two weapon abilities, which a lot of builds do. Especially stamsorcs. Also Bosmer get their sustain bonus denied whenever they block or sprint while Redguards can always get stamina back from their passive.

You are right about the Endurance changes though, Bosmer will benefit from them a lot more, but those are not live yet. So until then it's a pretty close call in noCP. Redguards are better on dualwield and bow setups while Bosmer are ahead on twohanded weapons because of the recovery bonuses.
Since this is a Stamblade specific thread you are probably right about Bosmer having better sustain if they go with Surprise Attack with a twohanded, but Redguard should be better on a Twin Slashes build.

I hope you aren't assuming 380 regen for redguard (950/5 seconds) because I can guarentee you that you are not getting that number in a real fight unless you consider dummy smacking a real fight and even so you'll get at most 350-360ish effective regen. In bgs taking account the whole bg (involves searching for oppoments, capturing objectives, healing, moving from objective to objective or kill to kill, losing, retreating, regrouping and more). Sure for a particular engagement you can hit close to the 950/5 seconds, but outside of such engagement you are getting 0 unless you start a new one. I usually get only about 50-140 stam per second on average for the whole game and yes I so light/heavy weave like crazy, trying to tag people wherever I can. Weapon skills are cheap as they are, so the 8% cost reduction doesn't amount to too much especially when you have more cost reduction factors such as the 15% from weapon passives, or up to 14% from medium armor or class passives such as sorcerer's 6% from unholy knowledge. (yes they are all multiplative, not additive) addionally, you are not spamming weapon skills at all times unless you are again on a target dummy.


If your build involves taping down rmb, you are the wrong race to begin with anyway. A tankier race such as Nord, Imperial or Orc would serve you better.

BTW the patch is really close and if they do make it to live, guess what 258 * 1.6 is (.4 from major endurance, which you can get from potions and .2 from minor endurance which you can get from momemtum and morphs). There is a reason why I only chose those 2 buffs and didn't include any other regen passives.

erio

Bosmer 100%. Fast speed, good recovery. Only be a cat if you plan to switch between stam and mag (at which point id recommend dark elf instead)

Juhasow

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Bosmer are definitely more flexible if you already decided to go stamina only.
Malacath's band of brutality makes Khajiit racials kind of pointless but Bosmer have the option to use it or not whenever they see fit.
The stamina sustain for Bosmer is very high, which comes in handy especially in noCP where sustain is low although, Redguards are better, in CP they get to shine even more and overtake Redguards' sustain on most builds. Their additional penetration after dodgerolling is also quite useful if you are planning on dodgerolling a lot.
The poison resistance Bosmer get is useful against Sheer Venom, Venomous Smite as well as Poison Injection, Toxic Barrage, StamDKs, and Subassault which are all quite dangerous, although its usefulness shouldn't be overestimated either.

Lastly we need to talk about Hunter's Eye.
If you dodgeroll a lot in PvP then Bosmer have a nice small powerboost from their penetration and the additional movementspeed is useful too.
However the detection is useless. 3meters are nothing and will not actually make a big difference. There are no points in PvP where a stealthed player can avoid you at a 6m radius but not at 9m. Aside from that it actually makes you more easily detected, which is a detriment if you want to go for a stealthy playstyle yourself. I can elaborate on that more if needed.

By comparison the Khajiiti stealth bonus is a lot more useful and noticeable to you and if you are planning on using Cloak for guaranteed crits then the damage bonus Khajiit get does come in handy as well. Also keep in mind that impenetrable has been nerfed considerably so crit is actually more viable in PvP now than it has ever been.

I entirely disagree with redguards being better than Bosmer for sustain even in no cp, especially on stamblade and even more so with the endurance changes.

Juhasow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The stamina sustain for Bosmer is very high, which comes in handy especially in noCP where sustain is low although, Redguards are better, in CP they get to shine even more and overtake Redguards' sustain on most builds.

Umm what ? Redguard is a trash race compared to wood elf when it comes to sustain in real PvP fights. That goes for both CP and no CP PvP.

I can't really speak from experience because I don't play Redguard but the math I did puts Redguards ahead of Bosmer in noCP on builds that use at least two weapon abilities, which a lot of builds do. Especially stamsorcs. Also Bosmer get their sustain bonus denied whenever they block or sprint while Redguards can always get stamina back from their passive.

You are right about the Endurance changes though, Bosmer will benefit from them a lot more, but those are not live yet. So until then it's a pretty close call in noCP. Redguards are better on dualwield and bow setups while Bosmer are ahead on twohanded weapons because of the recovery bonuses.
Since this is a Stamblade specific thread you are probably right about Bosmer having better sustain if they go with Surprise Attack with a twohanded, but Redguard should be better on a Twin Slashes build.

The math You did most propably assumes that You'll hit someone with direct dmg every 5 seconds without even half a second delay. That won't happen in real PvP fights. On average Your adrenaline rush passive during PvP encounters will be at 50% of effciency at best and the longer fights are the weaker it usually gets. Bosmer will not have that issue. When it comes to blocking and sprinting don't forget that regen ticks every 2 seconds so every time You're blocking or sprinting for less then 2 seconds or less then a number divided by 2 You'll still get that recovery tick at the end. Redguards can't always get stamina back from their passive. Especially nightblades that usually preffer evasive playstyle where You dodge , kite and LoS a lot won't be able to deal direct dmg every 5 seconds. Other classes will also have problems with that due to many different reasons.

Funny thing is that nord due to having more health and taking slighlty less dmg because of resistancesa bonus have less sustain issues in no CP PvP then redguard because You need to spend less resources on defense and You can heavy attack more safely.

Ratzkifal

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Bosmer are definitely more flexible if you already decided to go stamina only.
Malacath's band of brutality makes Khajiit racials kind of pointless but Bosmer have the option to use it or not whenever they see fit.
The stamina sustain for Bosmer is very high, which comes in handy especially in noCP where sustain is low although, Redguards are better, in CP they get to shine even more and overtake Redguards' sustain on most builds. Their additional penetration after dodgerolling is also quite useful if you are planning on dodgerolling a lot.
The poison resistance Bosmer get is useful against Sheer Venom, Venomous Smite as well as Poison Injection, Toxic Barrage, StamDKs, and Subassault which are all quite dangerous, although its usefulness shouldn't be overestimated either.

Lastly we need to talk about Hunter's Eye.
If you dodgeroll a lot in PvP then Bosmer have a nice small powerboost from their penetration and the additional movementspeed is useful too.
However the detection is useless. 3meters are nothing and will not actually make a big difference. There are no points in PvP where a stealthed player can avoid you at a 6m radius but not at 9m. Aside from that it actually makes you more easily detected, which is a detriment if you want to go for a stealthy playstyle yourself. I can elaborate on that more if needed.

By comparison the Khajiiti stealth bonus is a lot more useful and noticeable to you and if you are planning on using Cloak for guaranteed crits then the damage bonus Khajiit get does come in handy as well. Also keep in mind that impenetrable has been nerfed considerably so crit is actually more viable in PvP now than it has ever been.

I entirely disagree with redguards being better than Bosmer for sustain even in no cp, especially on stamblade and even more so with the endurance changes.

Juhasow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The stamina sustain for Bosmer is very high, which comes in handy especially in noCP where sustain is low although, Redguards are better, in CP they get to shine even more and overtake Redguards' sustain on most builds.

Umm what ? Redguard is a trash race compared to wood elf when it comes to sustain in real PvP fights. That goes for both CP and no CP PvP.

I can't really speak from experience because I don't play Redguard but the math I did puts Redguards ahead of Bosmer in noCP on builds that use at least two weapon abilities, which a lot of builds do. Especially stamsorcs. Also Bosmer get their sustain bonus denied whenever they block or sprint while Redguards can always get stamina back from their passive.

You are right about the Endurance changes though, Bosmer will benefit from them a lot more, but those are not live yet. So until then it's a pretty close call in noCP. Redguards are better on dualwield and bow setups while Bosmer are ahead on twohanded weapons because of the recovery bonuses.
Since this is a Stamblade specific thread you are probably right about Bosmer having better sustain if they go with Surprise Attack with a twohanded, but Redguard should be better on a Twin Slashes build.

I hope you aren't assuming 380 regen for redguard (950/5 seconds) because I can guarentee you that you are not getting that number in a real fight unless you consider dummy smacking a real fight and even so you'll get at most 350-360ish effective regen. In bgs taking account the whole bg (involves searching for oppoments, capturing objectives, healing, moving from objective to objective or kill to kill, losing, retreating, regrouping and more). Sure for a particular engagement you can hit close to the 950/5 seconds, but outside of such engagement you are getting 0 unless you start a new one. I usually get only about 50-140 stam per second on average for the whole game and yes I so light/heavy weave like crazy, trying to tag people wherever I can. Weapon skills are cheap as they are, so the 8% cost reduction doesn't amount to too much especially when you have more cost reduction factors such as the 15% from weapon passives, or up to 14% from medium armor or class passives such as sorcerer's 6% from unholy knowledge. (yes they are all multiplative, not additive) addionally, you are not spamming weapon skills at all times unless you are again on a target dummy.


If your build involves taping down rmb, you are the wrong race to begin with anyway. A tankier race such as Nord, Imperial or Orc would serve you better.

BTW the patch is really close and if they do make it to live, guess what 258 * 1.6 is (.4 from major endurance, which you can get from potions and .2 from minor endurance which you can get from momemtum and morphs). There is a reason why I only chose those 2 buffs and didn't include any other regen passives.

I calculated it with a perfect uptime as an upper limit of what you can possibly get and calculated an effective recovery value for it when using a weapon skill as a spammable (Snipe). If you also apply Poison Injection, Redguards sustain better than Bosmer on the same build (with no Minor Endurance and on the current patch), even if you don't get 100% uptime. A twohanded weapon build using Momentum is always better on a Bosmer because of Minor Endurance and Battle Rush after every kill, especially with Continuous Attack active. Dualwield doesn't favor either race at first glance but due to being melee and making Adrenaline Rush harder to proc on cooldown, Bosmer are usually better with dualwield, unless you use bladecloak, twinslashes and flyingblade together, which isn't too bad actually.
As a rule of thumb, if you use more than two weapon skills and don't use Momentum, because you use your class skill for Major Brutality and Race against time for immunity and minor force for example, and/or prefer heavy armor over medium, Redguard is better than Bosmer in noCP PvP.
If you never go to a fight without continuous attack active and you like Momentum/Repentance/Turn Evil/Enchanted Growth, then Bosmer is better. In CP Bosmer is always better.
Redguards get Ballista 8% faster, which shouldn't be underestimated, but that's not really about sustain anymore.

The values I used are from uesp's build editor, doublechecked with them ingame, and I made sure that both had 7 pieces of medium armor with passives on already when i looked at the stamina cost values so if I'm wrong, that can't be making the difference.
It all comes down to how good you are with that Adrenaline Rush, which is easy/easier on a bow. If you can't get more than 50% uptime, then it's obviously not worth it, but if you can get around 80% or so it's pretty close and that's not unrealistic for a bow either.
As for the other activities you mentioned, Redguards should be better at giving chase while Bosmer are better at retreating, which evens out. The biggest advantage Bosmer have is that they recover a lot faster after a fight is over and can reenter combat sooner than Redguards can. The rest hardly makes a difference I think.

At least that how it is until next patch...

JobooAGS

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Bosmer are definitely more flexible if you already decided to go stamina only.
Malacath's band of brutality makes Khajiit racials kind of pointless but Bosmer have the option to use it or not whenever they see fit.
The stamina sustain for Bosmer is very high, which comes in handy especially in noCP where sustain is low although, Redguards are better, in CP they get to shine even more and overtake Redguards' sustain on most builds. Their additional penetration after dodgerolling is also quite useful if you are planning on dodgerolling a lot.
The poison resistance Bosmer get is useful against Sheer Venom, Venomous Smite as well as Poison Injection, Toxic Barrage, StamDKs, and Subassault which are all quite dangerous, although its usefulness shouldn't be overestimated either.

Lastly we need to talk about Hunter's Eye.
If you dodgeroll a lot in PvP then Bosmer have a nice small powerboost from their penetration and the additional movementspeed is useful too.
However the detection is useless. 3meters are nothing and will not actually make a big difference. There are no points in PvP where a stealthed player can avoid you at a 6m radius but not at 9m. Aside from that it actually makes you more easily detected, which is a detriment if you want to go for a stealthy playstyle yourself. I can elaborate on that more if needed.

By comparison the Khajiiti stealth bonus is a lot more useful and noticeable to you and if you are planning on using Cloak for guaranteed crits then the damage bonus Khajiit get does come in handy as well. Also keep in mind that impenetrable has been nerfed considerably so crit is actually more viable in PvP now than it has ever been.

I entirely disagree with redguards being better than Bosmer for sustain even in no cp, especially on stamblade and even more so with the endurance changes.

Juhasow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The stamina sustain for Bosmer is very high, which comes in handy especially in noCP where sustain is low although, Redguards are better, in CP they get to shine even more and overtake Redguards' sustain on most builds.

Umm what ? Redguard is a trash race compared to wood elf when it comes to sustain in real PvP fights. That goes for both CP and no CP PvP.

I can't really speak from experience because I don't play Redguard but the math I did puts Redguards ahead of Bosmer in noCP on builds that use at least two weapon abilities, which a lot of builds do. Especially stamsorcs. Also Bosmer get their sustain bonus denied whenever they block or sprint while Redguards can always get stamina back from their passive.

You are right about the Endurance changes though, Bosmer will benefit from them a lot more, but those are not live yet. So until then it's a pretty close call in noCP. Redguards are better on dualwield and bow setups while Bosmer are ahead on twohanded weapons because of the recovery bonuses.
Since this is a Stamblade specific thread you are probably right about Bosmer having better sustain if they go with Surprise Attack with a twohanded, but Redguard should be better on a Twin Slashes build.

I hope you aren't assuming 380 regen for redguard (950/5 seconds) because I can guarentee you that you are not getting that number in a real fight unless you consider dummy smacking a real fight and even so you'll get at most 350-360ish effective regen. In bgs taking account the whole bg (involves searching for oppoments, capturing objectives, healing, moving from objective to objective or kill to kill, losing, retreating, regrouping and more). Sure for a particular engagement you can hit close to the 950/5 seconds, but outside of such engagement you are getting 0 unless you start a new one. I usually get only about 50-140 stam per second on average for the whole game and yes I so light/heavy weave like crazy, trying to tag people wherever I can. Weapon skills are cheap as they are, so the 8% cost reduction doesn't amount to too much especially when you have more cost reduction factors such as the 15% from weapon passives, or up to 14% from medium armor or class passives such as sorcerer's 6% from unholy knowledge. (yes they are all multiplative, not additive) addionally, you are not spamming weapon skills at all times unless you are again on a target dummy.


If your build involves taping down rmb, you are the wrong race to begin with anyway. A tankier race such as Nord, Imperial or Orc would serve you better.

BTW the patch is really close and if they do make it to live, guess what 258 * 1.6 is (.4 from major endurance, which you can get from potions and .2 from minor endurance which you can get from momemtum and morphs). There is a reason why I only chose those 2 buffs and didn't include any other regen passives.

I calculated it with a perfect uptime as an upper limit of what you can possibly get and calculated an effective recovery value for it when using a weapon skill as a spammable (Snipe). If you also apply Poison Injection, Redguards sustain better than Bosmer on the same build (with no Minor Endurance and on the current patch), even if you don't get 100% uptime. A twohanded weapon build using Momentum is always better on a Bosmer because of Minor Endurance and Battle Rush after every kill, especially with Continuous Attack active. Dualwield doesn't favor either race at first glance but due to being melee and making Adrenaline Rush harder to proc on cooldown, Bosmer are usually better with dualwield, unless you use bladecloak, twinslashes and flyingblade together, which isn't too bad actually.
As a rule of thumb, if you use more than two weapon skills and don't use Momentum, because you use your class skill for Major Brutality and Race against time for immunity and minor force for example, and/or prefer heavy armor over medium, Redguard is better than Bosmer in noCP PvP.
If you never go to a fight without continuous attack active and you like Momentum/Repentance/Turn Evil/Enchanted Growth, then Bosmer is better. In CP Bosmer is always better.
Redguards get Ballista 8% faster, which shouldn't be underestimated, but that's not really about sustain anymore.

The values I used are from uesp's build editor, doublechecked with them ingame, and I made sure that both had 7 pieces of medium armor with passives on already when i looked at the stamina cost values so if I'm wrong, that can't be making the difference.
It all comes down to how good you are with that Adrenaline Rush, which is easy/easier on a bow. If you can't get more than 50% uptime, then it's obviously not worth it, but if you can get around 80% or so it's pretty close and that's not unrealistic for a bow either.
As for the other activities you mentioned, Redguards should be better at giving chase while Bosmer are better at retreating, which evens out. The biggest advantage Bosmer have is that they recover a lot faster after a fight is over and can reenter combat sooner than Redguards can. The rest hardly makes a difference I think.

At least that how it is until next patch...

On top of that Bosmer has poison resistance and movement speed/pen (though the latter 2 are tied to dodge roll, which many builds already utilize) unless Bosmer gets nerfed (which is dangerously unwanted) redguard will need some buffs or other changes if the endurance changes make it to live. (Which is part of my point) The cost reduction for ults is practically meaningless when balgrohs exists. But even if you don’t use balgrohs, you especially cannot underestimate the ability of getting back into a fight quicker, in which as you stated Bosmer is vastly superior in that department.


Like I said In fights I can get high uptimes with AR, the issue is when you are out of fights which makes the uptime of AR overall sky fall for the activity clearly giving the edge to Bosmer even in no cp (which is another part of my point)

Jaraal

faeeichenlaub wrote: »

There is a lot of pushback on the Bosmer racial passive change to stealth detection vs. how it was with Stealth detectability resistance. Many are loath to put points into it because yes, a stealthed NB can detect that they are being detected to know an enemy NB is nearby. But I can tell you the passive has saved my Bosmer butt many times in PVP by finding a nightblade perched on a nearby rock that I myself planned to stalk from.

With the detect passive, you can typically back off the target before they realize it to react... they may be checking map etc. And not realize they have been pinged. and you can then plan accordingly to either go on offense with a snare, or disengage alert your group to the threat etc.

My Bosmer has been Alliance Rank 10 for a long time, and I have not once noticed a detection range difference with Hunter's Eye versus any of my non-Bosmer PvP characters. And as Ratzkifal says, testing was done on this before it was pushed to the live server, and Bosmer does indeed alert hidden players to their presence before any other race because of their passive stealth detection.

I have gone into a Cyro delve and waited for the boss to spawn, only to find out that an enemy player has been hidden less than 6 feet away from me the entire time. My racial passive did absolutely nothing for me, and only made me miss the stealth bonus I had for years that much more. I play my stealthy Khajiit characters in Cyro and IC far more, and their ability to play undetected because of their racial passive is far more useful to me.

That said, the Bosmer passives that increase max stamina and give more stamina recovery are very useful. It's almost makes up for having to burn stamina to activate the Hunter's Eye passive by rolling.

Bucky_13

erio wrote: »

Bosmer 100%. Fast speed, good recovery. Only be a cat if you plan to switch between stam and mag (at which point id recommend dark elf instead)

Agreed on the Dunmer instead of Khajiit. They get bonus weapon damage, almost as much extra stamina as Bosmers, bonus magicka which I find really useful for a stamblade. Then if you have it as a stage 1 or 2 vampire for the sneak movement speed bonus and possibly the weapon dmg bonus of stage 2, the extra flame resistance is really handy to have. And if you turn it into a mag blade you will enjoy the extra stamina as well. They lack sustain racials, but that can be compensated for.

Not saying they are the best race, but they are good and I my main PvP stamblade is a Dunmer and I have no intention of changing race on it.

faeeichenlaub

My Bosmer has been Alliance Rank 10 for a long time, and I have not once noticed a detection range difference with Hunter's Eye versus any of my non-Bosmer PvP characters. And as Ratzkifal says, testing was done on this before it was pushed to the live server, and Bosmer does indeed alert hidden players to their presence before any other race because of their passive stealth detection.

Could very well be I'm just passively, pulling people put of cloak by sheer proximity but it "seems" to function. That said I preferred from lore standpoint the way it was and would trade it in a hot minute. Or some blending of the two. +2Stealth/+2detection etc. Vs 3m etc. after all a good hunter needs both skills which was the rationale they modeled this heinous change. But I digress.