Nerfing single proc set like Sheer Venom is a mistake becouse changes should be much deeper

Joy_Division

Swordancer wrote: »

LOL this is possibly the worst example you could show. Look at this video one more time. Look how many tactics this guy is doing to get his results. This is what this game is suppose to look like. You are using your brain and skill to win. This is pure example of build that might work against tanky builds that you don't want to be too close to becuse they can drain you and heal themeselfs. This also might look nice, but ask him to repeat it live with other pro group.

If you take that set away, whats going to happen is that such tactics will work the same way just instead of sheer venom you will use Deadly Strike or Pillar of Nirn or some other. Check in Combat Metrics how much of damage your set can do with the same bars, then compare it to spamming leeching poison and other skills. This is just bonus for better draining results. Higher overtime damage. This guy can be easly killed with proper counter build and right skill bar without any problem becouse can't stand for too long in direct combat against high penetration critical damage. He have to go away to get back resources so he can strike again. This is pure example gg and skill.

This video do not even show the true potential of Sheer Venom which comes with group execute ability like whirling blades and you are talking you know this set and it's OP. It looks like it is OP to you. You get killed with it couple times and Oh, no! This is so OP.

I respect your opinion. Don't doubt it. I belive you might have different expirience than me, maybe you actually know something I don't but I do not have such problems with the guys using this set and Im using it in ranged combat or to inject posion to entire group to help other guys to kill zergs quicker. If you have build ready to any situation then you are much better than others.

Nerfing this set is just pointless becouse Sheer Venom doesn't make you goodlike, it doesn't give you super DPS comparing to other sets. It is just set like many other and thats it. Nerf is just fulfilling the whims of complaining people becouse they die and can't or won't upgrade thier builds or addapt them to current combat by using some addon. Sets are popular becouse some videos.

People think that this set is so OP becouse some guy on video killed 20 people with it in some battleground. It's becoming popular, people starts complain it get nerfed. Some guy is publishing another video, Im using Deadly strike now, look I killed 20 people with it. It is becoming popular, it gets nerfed.

Same story all these years. I am just so tired with this nonsense. xD

Not sure if this is sarcasm to match the video's sarcasm.

The "tactic" the player is using is firing a single max range skill that would proceed to do a ton of damage if he literally got out of his chair and made a sandwich. He's using his brain alright: find the 3 most abusive sets. Nobody is denying that player is skilled or that he understands what is strong from what is not. The issue is that he can adapt the easiest possible combat technique (max range single attacks), put only a single offensive skill on his bar (and thus allow him powerful survivability), and not have to worry about stats. resources, etc., that players who don't use proc sets do.

It's so brain dead effective there were multiple times he walked away from a fight only to see ten seconds later "you killed X."

Yes, we do know something you don't: the difference between effectiveness and compelling gameplay.

You don't need to brag how you don't have problems with this set or how awesome of a player you are. Every freaking night that I go into Cyrodiil or do PvP I have to put up with this nonsense. I do deal with it, but it takes a disproportionate amount of resources and effort to do so because these sets are too strong and too easy to proc. That disproportion makes the game frustrating and too easily tips the scales and ruins what could be an enjoyable evenly match fight. Every fantasy or RPG game I have every played would never allow a player to do so much damage while being virtually AFK; and the devs do this even when the opponents are NPCs that can't complain on the forums because it's obvious to everyone remotely interested in competition that it's poor design. If ZOS is going to stand by its position that player skills are too strong, too easily stacked, and too oppressive that they must be nerfed that standard must also apply to gear sets

nqvarihs

Urzigurumash wrote: »

proc sets make the game more interesting. I think we should assume most players want as much diversity in classes and playstyles they encounter in PvP as possible, to keep things interesting and keep us experimenting as well as practicing our skills. More diversity in sets should result in more diversity of playstyles, no?

please tell me what is interesting about the following? and yeah the meta is super diverse right now with a lot of different playstyles: icy conjuror, grothdarr, overwhelming, oblivion's foe, caluurion, sheer venom, syvarra's, venomous smite, defending warrior, crimson, unleashed terror? edit: how could i forget about draugrkin, auroran, zaan, master dw, brp destro, vma 2h. so hyped for the extra diversity next patch with the new 2h and destro!

Swordancer wrote: »

Oh and use underrated purge if you have problems with some poison folk.

just slot 5k mag purge loooolmao 4head

TBois

Proc sets provide extra burst outside of the global cooldown. Due to this they will always be difficult to balance against stat based sets, which has burst damage limited to the global cooldown outside of a few very specific skills.

FrankonPC

Merforum wrote: »

I bet you can wear just about any sets and do the same thing with the same technique and similar level of opponents. Here's another test for you, try using the same setup but instead of bow using 2hand and spamming Executioner. Should be way more damage that way but would that play style allow you to get high score.

I cannot come close to this amount of damage with stat based sets. I can do it with multiple procs. Should I do a video doing the same thing with alchemist and new moon? It's already been shown a few times in this thread how much more damage these procs give you, but perhaps a control is in order.

FrankonPC

techyeshic wrote: »

And that's not the end of the advantage. it's not just they outpace the damage boost. They do not rely on other stats to do so, so you can stack health and armor, and people are.

Exactly. Proc sets carry so much more damage naturally the way they are currently setup that it allows you to run a lot more sustain and survivability. I was running stage 3 vampire with 27k health in no cp battlegrounds. All of that damage mitigation, high recovery for mobility as well as high health to make me harder to burst.

There's a reason you see wardens and werewolves running a lot of procs, because they can stack health and have great damage and healing at the same time on a spec that has so much health it cannot be bursted.

Waffennacht

FrankonPC wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

I bet you can wear just about any sets and do the same thing with the same technique and similar level of opponents. Here's another test for you, try using the same setup but instead of bow using 2hand and spamming Executioner. Should be way more damage that way but would that play style allow you to get high score.

I cannot come close to this amount of damage with stat based sets. I can do it with multiple procs. Should I do a video doing the same thing with alchemist and new moon? It's already been shown a few times in this thread how much more damage these procs give you, but perhaps a control is in order.

Tbf you can if you run 1/2 stat and 1 proc and deal the exact same kind of damage.

I personally run Sheer, Malacath, BS, and EV and break 1.5 mil consistently.

BUT my GAMEPLAY is a hell of a lot more than JUST LA and INJECT (emphases because it needs to be emphasized!)

Bergzorn

Another aspect is that proc sets work relatively reliably in laggy situations. Just throw Caltrops and wait for some poor guy to walk through it so your armor can play the game for you. From the other side, it's a real PITA trying to outheal or shield proc dots when your skills don't fire.

Merforum

FrankonPC wrote: »

Great points, I also have been saying a long time. I keep hearing about 'FREE damage' or 'lazy players' but the Proc sets they are complaining about have way more 'requirements' than every other set they like (special triggers/PROC, some percent chance, DOT changed from burst, cooldown). A lot of Stat/Damage sets give you permanent stats/damage WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING.

And they conveniently forget about how stat/damage/crit give FREE damage to many different skills and attacks. If you add up all that extra FREE damage it is massively more FREE damage than any of the Proc sets.

this isn't true. If you think it is, do what I did. Slap on pi and go spam it in a bg with light attacks. You should do even more damage than i did! It's been shown in multiple threads now that proc sets are giving more than what stat based sets give.

Your werewolf vids were saying that your gear and werewolf is not so powerful, it is your superior skill over unskilled players. Now you put on proc sets and beat up even worse/less people in BG and say it's not about your skill or their lack of skill but because the proc sets are so powerful. Your tone and attitude in both vids is similar but one you say you're being sarcastic and the other you are serious.

Let's stop pretending. You just want to be able to beat up a bunch of unskilled players easily/continuously and anything like proc sets, tanky builds, shield/heal/purge spammers, etc. makes that harder for you SO THEY MUST BE NERFED.

Why don't you do a video with you and/or a group of good players dueling other good players and you use those proc sets and let's see how well that turns out. I'd love to see a vid with you dueling fengrush or Dan or whoever and each of you take turns where one uses all proc sets and the other uses whatever they want, let's see who wins.

Waffennacht

Merforum wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Great points, I also have been saying a long time. I keep hearing about 'FREE damage' or 'lazy players' but the Proc sets they are complaining about have way more 'requirements' than every other set they like (special triggers/PROC, some percent chance, DOT changed from burst, cooldown). A lot of Stat/Damage sets give you permanent stats/damage WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING.

And they conveniently forget about how stat/damage/crit give FREE damage to many different skills and attacks. If you add up all that extra FREE damage it is massively more FREE damage than any of the Proc sets.

this isn't true. If you think it is, do what I did. Slap on pi and go spam it in a bg with light attacks. You should do even more damage than i did! It's been shown in multiple threads now that proc sets are giving more than what stat based sets give.

Your werewolf vids were saying that your gear and werewolf is not so powerful, it is your superior skill over unskilled players. Now you put on proc sets and beat up even worse/less people in BG and say it's not about your skill or their lack of skill but because the proc sets are so powerful. Your tone and attitude in both vids is similar but one you say you're being sarcastic and the other you are serious.

Let's stop pretending. You just want to be able to beat up a bunch of unskilled players easily/continuously and anything like proc sets, tanky builds, shield/heal/purge spammers, etc. makes that harder for you SO THEY MUST BE NERFED.

Why don't you do a video with you and/or a group of good players dueling other good players and you use those proc sets and let's see how well that turns out. I'd love to see a vid with you dueling fengrush or Dan or whoever and each of you take turns where one uses all proc sets and the other uses whatever they want, let's see who wins.

The issue; in its grandist form is simply: using proc sets allows you to perform on a level far higher than you would on any other set up.

The "you" being a generic anybody.

My previous post was to illustrate that our BG friend there can Replicate the exact same scores, k/d etc as me (a top tier xbox na player) by simply LA and Injection.

Thats lowering the ceiling by too much

Jaraal

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Step out of CP-Enabled Cyrodiil for a bit and you'll see why Sheer Venom is getting nerfed. It's not the only thing that needs to be toned down, but it's well past time for it to take a hit. Or maybe it would be better to start with making the Malacath Ring not affect procs; either way, something definitely needs to be done.

Nobody would even wear Malacath if it didn't buff procs, because you can do a lot more damage with crits using skills and LA/HA than the 25% of Malacath. And you're still giving up either a 5 pc bonus or a 2pc weapon / monster bonus to wear it. Malacath doesn't even work with everybody's biggest whine set, Venomous Smite, because of the crit condition to proc it.

Malacath isn't the problem.

nqvarihs

Jaraal wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Step out of CP-Enabled Cyrodiil for a bit and you'll see why Sheer Venom is getting nerfed. It's not the only thing that needs to be toned down, but it's well past time for it to take a hit. Or maybe it would be better to start with making the Malacath Ring not affect procs; either way, something definitely needs to be done.

Nobody would even wear Malacath if it didn't buff procs, because you can do a lot more damage with crits using skills and LA/HA than the 25% of Malacath. And you're still giving up either a 5 pc bonus or a 2pc weapon / monster bonus to wear it. Malacath doesn't even work with everybody's biggest whine set, Venomous Smite, because of the crit condition to proc it.

Malacath isn't the problem.

malacath isn't the problem in this thread, but it definitely is a problem on its own and deserves nerfing. it is the highest source of dmg in no cp for stats builds if you're planning to do any aoe damage or if you have less than 30% crit modifier with guaranteed crits. and venomous smite is one of the less problematic sets now, sheer venom and syvarra's are way worse to deal with

FrankonPC

Merforum wrote: »

Your werewolf vids were saying that your gear and werewolf is not so powerful, it is your superior skill over unskilled players. Now you put on proc sets and beat up even worse/less people in BG and say it's not about your skill or their lack of skill but because the proc sets are so powerful. Your tone and attitude in both vids is similar but one you say you're being sarcastic and the other you are serious.

Let's stop pretending. You just want to be able to beat up a bunch of unskilled players easily/continuously and anything like proc sets, tanky builds, shield/heal/purge spammers, etc. makes that harder for you SO THEY MUST BE NERFED.

It's ALMOST like in one of the videos I was kiting for my life with people putting down wall of elements, atronach, endless hail and caltrops while also rotating damage skills to get kills...and in the other i was mindlessly spamming one button. You are right though in the fact that they are similar...they are both videos I have posted on youtube. Outside of that there's no similarity.

If I wanted to beat up a bunch of unskilled players I'd be advocating for keeping proc sets the way they are. I went 10-1, 16-3 and 9-3 with one button. Doesn't seem like it's narrowing the skill gap to me. I don't have as big of a problem dealing with proc sets as newer players do, especially on a nightblade where I can cloak and avoid the damage.

Some players do attempt to advocate for balance, not everyone is out to serve their own best self interest.

FrankonPC

Waffennacht wrote: »

My previous post was to illustrate that our BG friend there can Replicate the exact same scores, k/d etc as me (a top tier xbox na player) by simply LA and Injection.

Thats lowering the ceiling by too much

Exactly this. I really don't know how people could watch either of those videos and come away with "man that's some really skilled gameplay there!"

relentless_turnip

Hey, look isth3reno1else made a new video.

Weird because he is using stat based sets as you guys suggested. You said they were just as powerful but he appears to have done a third of the damage he did in his other videos?
I thought you guys said stat sets were just as strong? That they were balanced?



https://youtu.be/v_VOCImSqbg

Bergzorn

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Hey, look isth3reno1else made a new video.

Weird because he is using stat based sets as you guys suggested. You said they were just as powerful but he appears to have done a third of the damage he did in his other videos?
I thought you guys said stat sets were just as strong? That they were balanced?



https://youtu.be/v_VOCImSqbg

@FrankonPC I think it was that strange stone set, it really slowed you down. You still PI'd and tactically *** like a brick god, though.

Firstmep

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Hey, look isth3reno1else made a new video.

Weird because he is using stat based sets as you guys suggested. You said they were just as powerful but he appears to have done a third of the damage he did in his other videos?
I thought you guys said stat sets were just as strong? That they were balanced?



https://youtu.be/v_VOCImSqbg

Don't worry, there will be people around here who will come up with a myriad of excuses for this Vid.
We all know procsets are fine aganist my perma cloak nightblade in cp cyro.
They're all balanced!

relentless_turnip

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=284300

A challenge to all you pro proc setters...

I would like you to make a stat based build that does as much damage as my 2 button build above ^^

Nvm the fact it has 37k health and 29k resists. You can gloss over that if you like.

This build applies 80k worth of dots in 2 secs. That is not including stampede dot, the double dot poisons I would run or the chance the axe would cause a bleed. If they all procd that is over 100k applied in 2 secs.

Thor199389

Hey all, hey ZOS

welcome to my ted talk
genius idea: Make all dmg proc sets proc from crits only.
Every broken part of PvP fixed in one step.

GG EZ

thanks for listen to my ted talk

Husan

Imagine how strong proc sets will be when they inadvertently put ALL skills on a 3 sec cooldown in both cyro and bg.

nud3_voxel

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I am playing only Gray Host. I have build for sheer venom myself and I do not see any reason to nerf it at all. This is usefull set with specific techniques while achieving specific goal but it is definitely not OP.

I mean rn pvp is hella boring because people can run tanks with malakath and still kill people with proc sets like sheer venom. There are no specific techniques. It's a proc set. You press a button and people that aren't tanky just die. It's mostly used by people ganging on small groups or solo players and def not used to kill zergs.

FrankonPC

Thor199389 wrote: »

Hey all, hey ZOS

welcome to my ted talk
genius idea: Make all dmg proc sets proc from crits only.
Every broken part of PvP fixed in one step.

GG EZ

thanks for listen to my ted talk

I haven't even ran malacath yet, muahahahahah

FrankonPC

Some quick numbers from the videos:

With the Skill Enhancers
Match 1: 722k dmg in 7.5 minutes =96,266 dmg per minute
Match 2: 1.4 million dmg in 14.5 minutes = 96.5k dmg per minute

Without the Skill Enhancers

Match 1: 313k damage in 10 minutes = 31.3k dmg per minute

jaws343

FrankonPC wrote: »

Some quick numbers from the videos:

With the Skill Enhancers
Match 1: 722k dmg in 7.5 minutes =96,266 dmg per minute
Match 2: 1.4 million dmg in 14.5 minutes = 96.5k dmg per minute

Without the Skill Enhancers

Match 1: 313k damage in 10 minutes = 31.3k dmg per minute

Clearly you weren't trying hard enough without Skill Enhancers. /s

Firstmep

FrankonPC wrote: »

Some quick numbers from the videos:

With the Skill Enhancers
Match 1: 722k dmg in 7.5 minutes =96,266 dmg per minute
Match 2: 1.4 million dmg in 14.5 minutes = 96.5k dmg per minute

Without the Skill Enhancers

Match 1: 313k damage in 10 minutes = 31.3k dmg per minute

You are clearly trying to use a multibutt setup wrong. You actually have to press multiple buttons for those to work.

I know i know, heresy.

FrankonPC

Firstmep wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Some quick numbers from the videos:

With the Skill Enhancers
Match 1: 722k dmg in 7.5 minutes =96,266 dmg per minute
Match 2: 1.4 million dmg in 14.5 minutes = 96.5k dmg per minute

Without the Skill Enhancers

Match 1: 313k damage in 10 minutes = 31.3k dmg per minute

You are clearly trying to use a multibutt setup wrong. You actually have to press multiple buttons for those to work.

I know i know, heresy.

Then I'd become something I hate. That's asking a lot.

Waffennacht

Its kinda all set in stone now

Waffennacht

And seeing as thats it right? I mean no more nerfs?

Can safely gold out my replacement for sheer now right?

hexentb16_ESO

I don't think ZOS nerfed it just for performance sake though that is probably part of the reason. I think the other reason is pvpers. The more posts I read on the forums complaining about proc sets the more I am convinced that they're not actually a problem at all and that those complaining are really just not chill with their pvp experience changing and seeing new effects in their death recaps. Even the example builds they show me seem really easy to deal with if I just think things through and adapt my strategies. Before when mostly everyone just used stat sets I grew bored of pvp because I could easily no brain it. It was always the same. Now I have loads of fun in pvp, even though I'm not using proc sets myself atm.

Considering how many people have stated they're okay with proc sets being in the new meta I'm certain that the playerbase is actually 50/50 on the matter since people are always more vocal and more likely to complain when they're pissed. Lol I frequently hear pvpers complain about silly things like the enemy keeps having too many rocks around them when they loose.

Edit: Also, if there are so many players using proc sets in the pvp meta, enough to make it a big problem then you guys can't ignore the fact that each each one of them would probably be against their new favorite proc builds being nerfed.

Atherakhia

If they nerfed it for PvPs sake they'd 1.) nerfed it a hell of a lot more than they did and 2.) wouldn't have limited to one of numerous sets being complained about. Instead it's far more likely that the devs don't actually play the game and instead have an Excel spreadsheet that determines the overall 'worth' of a set and they determined Sheer Venom was scoring too high. Just because something is nerfed doesn't automatically mean it's the big bad PvPers fault. Lets face it, ZOS has done absolutely nothing for PvP for year(s).

relentless_turnip

FrankonPC wrote: »

Thor199389 wrote: »

Hey all, hey ZOS

welcome to my ted talk
genius idea: Make all dmg proc sets proc from crits only.
Every broken part of PvP fixed in one step.

GG EZ

thanks for listen to my ted talk

I haven't even ran malacath yet, muahahahahah

Actually think this is a great idea, I can't think of a problem so far...