Nerf to Sergeant's Mail is Pointless, Here's Why

Arcanasx

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

ill just leave this here

This looks like one of those ultra glass cannon vampire khajiit nightblade with simmering frenzy burst from stealth setups; against the iron atronach trial dummy that has all the debuffs on it to increase damage parses. And if it was from live, there's an actual bug affecting the damage modifier for dual wield heavy attacks from stealth making them do a lot more damage than they're supposed to do. Basically that setup doesn't seem too practical for doing a real full parse, or even fighting somewhat competent pvp'ers in a proper pvp environment.

Decimus

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

ill just leave this here

You know, it'd probably be better if you didn't leave these bugged PvE sneak attack modifiers on this thread (fixed on PTS btw as Arcanax pointed out).

Sneak attack modifiers which don't affect PvP because they removed sneak attack damage modifiers from PvP years ago.


Here's the exact patch note from 6.2.0:

Fixed an issue where Dual Wield Heavy Attacks would calculate their Sneak Attack damage incorrectly in some cases, producing absurdly high results.

Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/546419/pts-patch-notes-v6-2-0


Thanks, and please keep the thread on topic.

Decimus

Another fun little fact:

Elegant still buffs the second Dual Wield heavy attack - this effectively makes Elegant just a straight up better Sergeant now that both buff only one hit of Dual Wield heavy attacks.

Madhatten512

@Decimus I agree i'd love to know how with all the broken proc non-sense thats going on in the game right now how they decided Sergeants was the one that needed buried. All because one person thinks the cancer he runs is ok, but the cancer somebody else runs needs dealt with ASAP. It's such a joke.

JinxxND

@Nordic__Knights so my question to you as you have been clearly debunked as to why that picture on a PvE dummy with every debuff/buff has been shown is false and not realistic and possibly taking into account the stealth damage which we can never tell without a video or combat metrix is are you legitimately clueless to the mechanics behind how sergeant worked or are just being ignorant.

It's one thing if you some how got on the build pre PTS on a trial combat dummy that just happens to give every buff and debuff on it and use the only actual broken mechanic of heavy attacks with dual wield from STEALTH and opening up everytime from the undetected state after toggling the simmering fury where you have 0 threat to your health with channeled melee range attacks against that dummy just to record the picture and being clueless about that entire ordeal or are you just one of the people like Sabre that is clearly ignorant and biased for whatever reason despite clearly being debunked with factual evidence via Decimus and Arcanasx and trying to use broken mechanics that were clearly taking advantage of the undetected stealth heavy attacks

JinxxND

Madhatten512 wrote: »

@Decimus I agree i'd love to know how with all the broken proc non-sense thats going on in the game right now how they decided Sergeants was the one that needed buried. All because one person thinks the cancer he runs is ok, but the cancer somebody else runs needs dealt with ASAP. It's such a joke.

I would also advise against calling it cancer until one actually has farmed the sets and played it in the context we are talking about high mmr BGs as a heavy attack only build among all the ranged procs and actual free damage that doesn't require setting up off balance in melee and possibly an expensive ultimate in corrosive armor and surviving with low weapon damage to heal as you invest only into a modifier set for a melee channeled attack and if we are being super specific not really the set but the specific build on a stamdk that literally only has 1 SINGLE heal slotted with vigor and no purge or cleanse in the proc filled BGs

Lets be perfectly clear it wasn't a problem with the set which is actually pretty weak before the nerf (now it's completely useless), it was cries from Sabre against one player Arcanasx, as numerous other classes could have and did run the exact same setup but weren't able to either leverage the build right or simply found out how hard it was to play the build and all switched to other builds even other stamDKs most notably one who is now playing a triple proc bombard warden and pretty well on that vs her/his performance on the heavy attack stamDK with the EXACT same setup. All the "loud" noise was directed to one player specifically on the build not the set as if it actually was overpowered and able to do all these fictional and nonsense one shot and super high damage by just showing up we would see A LOT more of them similar to how we see sheer venom/syvarras/venomous smite/BRP bow/crimson/sellitrix/unleashed etc. from factual data if ZoS actually looked into data from BGs guaranteed vs how many sergeant users there were if any and their dmg numbers compared to actual proc sets

Firstmep

JinxxND wrote: »

Madhatten512 wrote: »

@Decimus I agree i'd love to know how with all the broken proc non-sense thats going on in the game right now how they decided Sergeants was the one that needed buried. All because one person thinks the cancer he runs is ok, but the cancer somebody else runs needs dealt with ASAP. It's such a joke.

I would also advise against calling it cancer until one actually has farmed the sets and played it in the context we are talking about high mmr BGs as a heavy attack only build among all the ranged procs and actual free damage that doesn't require setting up off balance in melee and possibly an expensive ultimate in corrosive armor and surviving with low weapon damage to heal as you invest only into a modifier set for a melee channeled attack and if we are being super specific not really the set but the specific build on a stamdk that literally only has 1 SINGLE heal slotted with vigor and no purge or cleanse in the proc filled BGs

Lets be perfectly clear it wasn't a problem with the set which is actually pretty weak before the nerf (now it's completely useless), it was cries from Sabre against one player Arcanasx, as numerous other classes could have and did run the exact same setup but weren't able to either leverage the build right or simply found out how hard it was to play the build and all switched to other builds even other stamDKs most notably one who is now playing a triple proc bombard warden and pretty well on that vs her/his performance on the heavy attack stamDK with the EXACT same setup. All the "loud" noise was directed to one player specifically on the build not the set as if it actually was overpowered and able to do all these fictional and nonsense one shot and super high damage by just showing up we would see A LOT more of them similar to how we see sheer venom/syvarras/venomous smite/BRP bow/crimson/sellitrix/unleashed etc. from factual data if ZoS actually looked into data from BGs guaranteed vs how many sergeant users there were if any and their dmg numbers compared to actual proc sets

Yeah. In pc EU there's like 2 ppl playing heavy attack builds and one is a magsorc.
The build was able to put high dmg(melee sergeant), but required significant setup to do so, and you needed to heavily invest into mobility to be able to land those heavies.
I still think a small nerf was needed to sergeant with the empower change, but not to this extent. They could have made it only apply at let's say 75% effectiveness if dual wielding, and it would've been fine.
Melee heavy builds need to hit hard, Beacuse they don't get a lot of chances to hit, at least aganist good players.

JinxxND

I don't think sergeant needed a nerf at all, like I said if I was seeing a buncha the people trying the set and actually doing high amounts of damage without counter play similar to actual problematic sets (sheer venom/venomous smite etc) then yes of course but majority of the people using the set quite literally 9 out of every 10 people (if you even saw that many people with the set realistically about 6-7 total) did very poorly and dropped the build due to it's flaws and how ineffective and bad it was. I've actually taken the time to farm and test the set myself and it's extremely niche and the full dmg potential is only really able to be used on people who don't know what they are doing so maybe that's why people are crying about it as there are a lot of those. I personally prefer stats or even actual procs over it but that's just me.

Logically empower if they were afraid of it's potential which can't even be used now outside magicka builds because the short duration just the stamina light attack ones like stormmaster (which now have more heavy attack damage as well over sergeant) they could have kept the duration and have the empower just consume on 2 heavy or light attack which would count as 1 heavy attack for dual wield or werewolf and 2 heavy attacks for all other weapons or 2 light/medium attacks and solved the problem.

[snip] because the new heavy attack sets that are procs when combined are being shown to actually one shot without nearly as much setup as the non proc heavy attack sets which never actually one shot from 100% hp. There is actual video evidence of this.

Then we have hypocrites being really slimey that were abusing proc sets that are being complained all over the forums and using cheese like the goliath necro ult which imo should scale with whatever HP value you are at when you cast it not 100% reset the fight, so if you are at 10% you get 10% hp of the new value with the added 30k hp not a full reset and cheese mechanics

[Edit for Bashing.

HanStolo

why hasn't @ZOS_GinaBruno commented on the community's concerns about nerfing this? One guy complaining shouldn't be enough to put this in action. The posts in this thread describe actual play with this set pretty accurately, it isn't easy to set this up. I hope they re-think this. This is decent set that if played extremely well can be effective but not OP. Nerfing it and making it useless just seems to be a bit over the top.

ManDraKE

HanStolo wrote: »

why hasn't @ZOS_GinaBruno commented on the community's concerns about nerfing this? One guy complaining shouldn't be enough to put this in action. The posts in this thread describe actual play with this set pretty accurately, it isn't easy to set this up. I hope they re-think this. This is decent set that if played extremely well can be effective but not OP. Nerfing it and making it useless just seems to be a bit over the top.

is not one guy complaining, they probably didn't even read sabre's posts. ZoS has been consistenlty nerfing every single ganking build possible in the game, they nerfed all burst sets (and then decided to add calurions for some reason), they nerfed all combos that could grant you stun+offbalance from stealth, they nerfed even the magsorc ganking builds, etc, etc, is a long list. Sergents is just the next victim since it was becoming popular for ganking, mostly from people copying harmlesschicken build.

Arcanasx

ManDraKE wrote: »

HanStolo wrote: »

why hasn't @ZOS_GinaBruno commented on the community's concerns about nerfing this? One guy complaining shouldn't be enough to put this in action. The posts in this thread describe actual play with this set pretty accurately, it isn't easy to set this up. I hope they re-think this. This is decent set that if played extremely well can be effective but not OP. Nerfing it and making it useless just seems to be a bit over the top.

is not one guy complaining, they probably didn't even read sabre's posts. ZoS has been consistenlty nerfing every single ganking build possible in the game, they nerfed all burst sets (and then decided to add calurions for some reason), they nerfed all combos that could grant you stun+offbalance from stealth, they nerfed even the magsorc ganking builds, etc, etc, is a long list. Sergents is just the next victim since it was becoming popular for ganking, mostly from people copying harmlesschicken build.

They're allowing empower to affect heavy attacks again though, just seems counter intuitive if that would be the reason why sergeants was nerfed imo.

HanStolo

Arcanasx wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

HanStolo wrote: »

why hasn't @ZOS_GinaBruno commented on the community's concerns about nerfing this? One guy complaining shouldn't be enough to put this in action. The posts in this thread describe actual play with this set pretty accurately, it isn't easy to set this up. I hope they re-think this. This is decent set that if played extremely well can be effective but not OP. Nerfing it and making it useless just seems to be a bit over the top.

is not one guy complaining, they probably didn't even read sabre's posts. ZoS has been consistenlty nerfing every single ganking build possible in the game, they nerfed all burst sets (and then decided to add calurions for some reason), they nerfed all combos that could grant you stun+offbalance from stealth, they nerfed even the magsorc ganking builds, etc, etc, is a long list. Sergents is just the next victim since it was becoming popular for ganking, mostly from people copying harmlesschicken build.

They're allowing empower to affect heavy attacks again though, just seems counter intuitive if that would be the reason why sergeants was nerfed imo.

they seem to make counter intuitive moves all the time now. Like nothing makes sense. They wanted to "lower the ceiling and raise the floor" to make the gap between players that know how to dps and those that don't but none of the moves seem to be doing that. They wanted to nerf impen and pump penetration but everyone seems way more tanky than before and those changes aren't having much effect. Almost everyone is running around with 30-50K HP now that do really good damage and heal really well...None of the changes seem to be doing what they intended. But hey, let's nerf Sergeants!

wheem_ESO

While I wouldn't say that Sergeant's Mail is as big of a problem as some of the proc set nonsense that we're seeing now - and it certainly isn't as widespread - that doesn't mean that it's totally balanced and shouldn't be nerfed/changed in some way. Perhaps ZOS is going about it all wrong, but heavy attacks shouldn't be hitting harder than burst ultimates, especially since they also restore resources and can stun offbalance targets.

maxjapank

wheem_ESO wrote: »

While I wouldn't say that Sergeant's Mail is as big of a problem as some of the proc set nonsense that we're seeing now - and it certainly isn't as widespread - that doesn't mean that it's totally balanced and shouldn't be nerfed/changed in some way. Perhaps ZOS is going about it all wrong, but heavy attacks shouldn't be hitting harder than burst ultimates, especially since they also restore resources and can stun offbalance targets.

But you have to build in a way and choose gear that makes other skills weaker. There is a trade off. Let's not forget that.

JinxxND

wheem_ESO wrote: »

While I wouldn't say that Sergeant's Mail is as big of a problem as some of the proc set nonsense that we're seeing now - and it certainly isn't as widespread - that doesn't mean that it's totally balanced and shouldn't be nerfed/changed in some way. Perhaps ZOS is going about it all wrong, but heavy attacks shouldn't be hitting harder than burst ultimates, especially since they also restore resources and can stun offbalance targets.

That's really subjective, cause if you actually know how to build pretty much any dmg ultimate will hit way harder then any heavy attack combo, funny cause I had someone say the same thing and their dawnbreaker was only hitting for 2-5k after resistances on people but he was also running sheer venom and procs with a buncha dots so that just showed me he clearly doesn't know how to build or understand mechanics of the game.

If you are built into stats your ultimate will hit harder then heavy attacks without a doubt but if you are wearing stuff like sheer venom/syvarras where nothing outside the 2-4p affect the ultimate or not running any kinda modifiers/debuffs/buffs that buff your ultimate's with the right traits then yea expect heavy attacks todo more damage when invested in which is still the case without sergeants

TLDR if you don't understand how to build and just expect your ultimate to hit harder then a build that is fully spec'd into heavy attacks then no your ultimate won't hit harder then heavy attacks that have been spec'd into

wheem_ESO

JinxxND wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

While I wouldn't say that Sergeant's Mail is as big of a problem as some of the proc set nonsense that we're seeing now - and it certainly isn't as widespread - that doesn't mean that it's totally balanced and shouldn't be nerfed/changed in some way. Perhaps ZOS is going about it all wrong, but heavy attacks shouldn't be hitting harder than burst ultimates, especially since they also restore resources and can stun offbalance targets.

That's really subjective, cause if you actually know how to build pretty much any dmg ultimate will hit way harder then any heavy attack combo, funny cause I had someone say the same thing and their dawnbreaker was only hitting for 2-5k after resistances on people but he was also running sheer venom and procs with a buncha dots so that just showed me he clearly doesn't know how to build or understand mechanics of the game.

If you are built into stats your ultimate will hit harder then heavy attacks without a doubt but if you are wearing stuff like sheer venom/syvarras where nothing outside the 2-4p affect the ultimate or not running any kinda modifiers/debuffs/buffs that buff your ultimate's with the right traits then yea expect heavy attacks todo more damage when invested in which is still the case without sergeants

TLDR if you don't understand how to build and just expect your ultimate to hit harder then a build that is fully spec'd into heavy attacks then no your ultimate won't hit harder then heavy attacks that have been spec'd into

I'm not talking about "my" ultimate vs someone else's heavy attacks. I'm referring to the general damage range I've seen on various burst damage ultimates against my own character, compared against DW heavy attacks against the same character in the same gear, going back quite some time - including before Proc Meta 3.0, Stamina DOTs edition.

I've had some DW heavy attacks from Stam DK and Stam NB literally hit harder than the upfront damage on Dawnbreaker, and that's on a Vampire against people running 0 offensive proc sets.

And since I know some people like to claim that these sorts of builds are supposedly better on Magicka classes, I'll point out that there have been a grand total of 2 Magicka players that I've ever seen running heavy attack builds in BGs. One was someone that I knew a while back, who doesn't play anymore, that very occasionally ran a heavy attack setup on a Mag DK alt. The other was a Mag Sorc that I encountered a few times over the course of 1 or 2 days, and haven't seen since. That particular Sorc was heavy attacking with a lightning staff, and once totaled something like 13k damage on me, which is quite silly. But overall, his success rate wasn't even remotely close to the same sort of build on a Stam DK or Stam NB, despite the need to get into melee range supposedly being such a huge drawback. He would explode anytime someone looked in his general direction, with his only survivability coming from preemptive streaking and trying to only get engaged when adding on to an existing fight. There was no loading up a heavy attack around a corner, or in stealth, or popping Corrosive Armor, stealth, or dodge spamming when under fire.

If I see evidence of some Magicka build(s) successfully running heavy attack builds against decent-or-better players, I'll be happy to change my mind. But from all of my personal experience so far, the heavy attack setups are almost exclusively a problem for Stamina builds, and something needed to change (again, it's not nearly as widespread of an issue as the current Aprocalypse, and wouldn't be my #1 target choice for nerfs, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed).

JinxxND

Once again it comes down to being played well I've seen a magicka nightblade using a lightning heavy attack build that ran the vMA ice staff back bar with lightning heavies with dark cloak and shaded around with valkyn skoria and cripple and you can imagine how annoying that was hitting you with 14k heavies between skoria procs and the soul tether stun ult but its rare, I've also seen a pet sorc landing 12k heavies between curse weave and fury with every pet you can name in the book.

Just two example of it played well or cheesy whatever you want to call it on mag where you are taking 22k-24k damage after battlespirit and resistances with simply 2 heavy attacks not counting the dots from cripple, degen, skoria, procs, wall of elements with poisons, an ultimate that stuns if you can even get to them thru all the roots and snare just that build alone has, or the petsorc where you had the pets doing dmg and providing los in between curse damage and an execute that would blow you up if your hp dropped with the 12k undodgeable heavy attacks compared to 4k-6k melee blockable-dodgeable heavy attacks with with skills that do minimal damage no more then 2k at most because the investment into only heavy attacks and not wd/skill modifiers that are also dodgeable/blockable

JinxxND

Also btw the magicka version does not use sergeant as sergeant only boost the last tick of the channel dot not the channel ticks which is still possible with the sets currently in the game. Do I think they are overpowered and I'm talking about the magicka ones no. I can count on 1 hand how many good players or cheesy have actually been able to not only build around the lightning/resto heavy attack dmg while thinking about how to survive outnumbered and 1v1 on it while everyone else was just thinking about the damage. Where as we have sheer venom/hunters venom spam where one can pop out of stealth hit you with 1-2 skill that procs 4 sets and run away as all the damage ticks on. Even the magicka heavy attack sets despite the absurd damage potential still have to stay in the fight and channel the heavy on you were as with a lot of the proc sets it's fire and forget doesn't require you to be engaged.

As far as stamina goes I can count only 4 people I could say that I viewed as good building fully into heavy attacks that actually could play it well not only do the damage but survive amongst all the other damage in the game. And 2 of them were nightblades 1 was a stamplar and one stamDK.

What's actually broken are the proc sets that people don't even have to engage you in they can simply cast 1-2 skills and proc 3-4 sets and disengage completely as the sets do their damage simply popping back in to rotate a skill or 2 to make sure the procs keep proccing, or they can choose to stay engaged and rotate more skills with the pressure of 3-4 proc sets and skills for even more pressure

ManDraKE

Arcanasx wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

HanStolo wrote: »

why hasn't @ZOS_GinaBruno commented on the community's concerns about nerfing this? One guy complaining shouldn't be enough to put this in action. The posts in this thread describe actual play with this set pretty accurately, it isn't easy to set this up. I hope they re-think this. This is decent set that if played extremely well can be effective but not OP. Nerfing it and making it useless just seems to be a bit over the top.

is not one guy complaining, they probably didn't even read sabre's posts. ZoS has been consistenlty nerfing every single ganking build possible in the game, they nerfed all burst sets (and then decided to add calurions for some reason), they nerfed all combos that could grant you stun+offbalance from stealth, they nerfed even the magsorc ganking builds, etc, etc, is a long list. Sergents is just the next victim since it was becoming popular for ganking, mostly from people copying harmlesschicken build.

They're allowing empower to affect heavy attacks again though, just seems counter intuitive if that would be the reason why sergeants was nerfed imo.

Counter intuitive is pretty normal with ZoS balance decisions. They said that oversustain allowed people to spam AoE and that was producing lag, and 1 week later they pushed the changes to major/minor endurance/intellect granting a massive sustain buff to everyone. And that is just one example, i could find another dozen very easily.

BangX

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

ill just leave this here

Sad it's getting nerfed, Sergeants + undaunted hits like a truck in pvp, especially for ganking.

Maggusemm

Heavy Attacks require low player skills, thats why it shouldnt be rewarded by high damage. NERF of sergeants set is ok.

maxjapank

Maggusemm wrote: »

Heavy Attacks require low player skills, thats why it shouldnt be rewarded by high damage. NERF of sergeants set is ok.

Have you tried Heavy Attack play with Sergeants? It's really not as easy as you think. There is a wind-up and it can be quite difficult to land. Even if you stun someone, they can often break-free and roll dodge before you can get a heavy attack off. The only time where it doesn't take much skill is against an NPC who isn't moving or a player who isn't moving. Please show me some play of using heavy attack, especially melee heavy attack.

Decimus

Maggusemm wrote: »

Heavy Attacks require low player skills, thats why it shouldnt be rewarded by high damage. NERF of sergeants set is ok.

You do realize they didn't nerf heavy attacks, right? Only one of the many, many sets that can be utilized (and isn't even BiS for burst damage) by those builds. I'd recommend reading the original post & seeing the comparisons to other heavy attack sets such as Doylemish or upcoming Explosive Rebuke & Vateshran sets.


Also blanket statements equating heavy attacks to low player skill don't really serve a purpose as there's barely anything in the game that would promote skillful gameplay right now.

But if you want to look at heavy attacks in the current meta, I would argue that it is a lot harder to land a 1,6s "cast time" while staying within 7m (9m if DK) of your target -usually within 7s of proccing Off Balance on your target before that- than it is to land a Light Attack or Poison Injection from 28m away without any necessary pre-conditions.

Or holding block and just spamming a gap closer on your target (e.g. Unleashed+vMA 2H builds).


And even if Sergeant was deemed worthy of a nerf (which it isn't when you look at numbers, both of how many people are using the set as well as how much burst it enables compared to other sets) the magnitude of the nerf is off the charts, as can be seen by Elegant 5p (which is just a stronger version of Sergeant's now) & Undaunted Infiltrator/Unweaver/Storm Master/Noble Duelist etc all providing more damage to Dual Wield heavy attacks now than Sergeant.

Skoomah

It's pretty disgusting that a playstyle that actually takes skill to pull off, such as a heavy attack build, gets nerfed while brain dead proc set meta keeps getting boosted and is allowed to fester and ruin PVP.

Landing heavy attacks while in the middle of high movement pvp with incoming ranged proc damage all over the place is a difficult playstyle. High risk vs. high reward.

Now with this nerf to dual wield heavy attacks, it's now high risk vs. not worth it reward.

Thanks to all the whiners and people who keep losing for getting set after set, playstyle after playstyle nerfed. You can't win so you gotta bring the rest of us down to your level.

Urzigurumash

Decimus wrote: »

And even if Sergeant was deemed worthy of a nerf (which it isn't when you look at numbers, both of how many people are using the set as well as how much burst it enables compared to other sets) the magnitude of the nerf is off the charts, as can be seen by Elegant 5p (which is just a stronger version of Sergeant's now)

Yeah this definitely isn't right if you're getting more out of Elegance on a Stam Heavy Attack build than Sergeant's, but is anybody sure how Elegance is supposed to work now? For years it just buffed light/heavy attacks. Its new 5 piece bonus doesn't work consistently with different weapons: On Fire/Frost it buffs the heavy attack itself, on Lightning/Resto it does in fact buff the next Direct Damage used after the Heavy Attack, which is a very strong idea on paper, but I think the buff needs extended a second or two.

edit: typo

Decimus

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

And even if Sergeant was deemed worthy of a nerf (which it isn't when you look at numbers, both of how many people are using the set as well as how much burst it enables compared to other sets) the magnitude of the nerf is off the charts, as can be seen by Elegant 5p (which is just a stronger version of Sergeant's now)

Yeah this definitely isn't right if you're getting more out of Elegance on a Stam Heavy Attack build than Sergeant's, but is anybody sure how Elegance is supposed to work now? For years it just buffed light/heavy attacks. Its new 5 piece bonus doesn't work consistently with different weapons: On Fire/Frost it buffs the heavy attack itself, on Lightning/Resto it does in fact buff the next Direct Damage used after the Heavy Attack, which is a very strong idea on paper, but I think the buff needs extended a second or two.

edit: typo

It buffs the first attack that lands after the heavy attack is cast - so you can actually get the buff to melee hits such as Molten Whip if you cancel your heavy attack fast enough.

On Lightning/Resto it buffs the last "pulse" of those heavies as well, unless you cancel the heavy with an ability.

Urzigurumash

Ah I see, that's interesting, thanks for clearing that up. So on all 4 staves, if you can land any DD hit before the HA (or last pulse) hits, it will buff that, if not it buffs the HA (or last pulse).

precambria

It's because of the fact it was applying twice to DW there is no reason for it to do that, it's not about nerfing heavy attacks it is just standardizing it more throughout other kinds of weapon. that is it.

Firstmep

precambria wrote: »

It's because of the fact it was applying twice to DW there is no reason for it to do that, it's not about nerfing heavy attacks it is just standardizing it more throughout other kinds of weapon. that is it.

Most heavy attack sets still apply to both dual wield heavy, so there is no standard here, really XD.

Should know by now ZOS just uses the word "standard" to do whatever they want.

precambria

Make it work on the first attack or split between them, it's not because of heavy attacking builds or dual wield it's double application of a bonus for only one type of weapon. Fix it on all sets, it's not even close to the worst thing in the game right now but that is not a valid argument as to why it's not bugged when it obviously is.