So ZOS has decided to continue elder tanks online?

Wolfpaw

Healing scaled up by a health pool should be removed, & adjusted to scale with +healing, magicka, stamina, & healing crit stat (not damage crit).

JayKwellen

AyaDark wrote: »

@AyaDark
What did you give DK when take wings away ?

Nothing.

The same here.

DK's still have wings which gives them 50% projectile mitigation and a snare removal. It's not great, but it's there. The only thing it really 'took' from you really was the ability to stomp magblades with impunity, and to a lesser degree magsorcs. Personally I still don't think they had to completely take the reflect away, they could have adjusted it. Unfortunately, thanks to forum posts crying for the destruction of entire classes and their abilities, exactly what you're doing here by the way, it was taken away from them.

Your answers indicate you don't really understand how NB's play or work anyway, so I suppose I shouldn't expect you to either understand nor care about the irreparable damage taking stealth away would do to the class if it wasn't compensated in some other way for the loss.

Just curious, have you ever actually PvP'd on a NB, either mag or stam?

Ai_Yokeda

On the topic of "Thews of the Harbringer" tanks.

OP mentions groups of tanks capturing resources and keeps. First off, i have not faced any one person or group of tanks that have not been defeated within minutes, but to suggest that they can openly bypass all mechanics to pvp such as; Negates or meat bags.is outrageous. Although, i do feel that since the healing nerf with battle spirit. their has been more players attempting to build even more resilient but more often failing.

However.. Id like to run into this tank group.
I play Xbox NA GreyHost Gt: Ai Yokeda

Wuuffyy

Ai_Yokeda wrote: »

On the topic of "Thews of the Harbringer" tanks.

OP mentions groups of tanks capturing resources and keeps. First off, i have not faced any one person or group of tanks that have not been defeated within minutes, but to suggest that they can openly bypass all mechanics to pvp such as; Negates or meat bags.is outrageous. Although, i do feel that since the healing nerf with battle spirit. their has been more players attempting to build even more resilient but more often failing.

However.. Id like to run into this tank group.
I play Xbox NA GreyHost Gt: Ai Yokeda

What up buddy! It’s Wolfy3777 here and I promise you I see it all the time. I just ignore them and they do no damage but the fact they can dispense of less skilled players on 60k+ health tanks with ease is honestly a big problem. And the worst part is when they throw themselves on a resource or on the way to something in which you HAVE to fight them, it does become a game breaking issue.

Synssaturdayy9

Ai_Yokeda wrote: »

On the topic of "Thews of the Harbringer" tanks.

OP mentions groups of tanks capturing resources and keeps. First off, i have not faced any one person or group of tanks that have not been defeated within minutes, but to suggest that they can openly bypass all mechanics to pvp such as; Negates or meat bags.is outrageous. Although, i do feel that since the healing nerf with battle spirit. their has been more players attempting to build even more resilient but more often failing.

However.. Id like to run into this tank group.
I play Xbox NA GreyHost Gt: Ai Yokeda

facts
(my gt G Q D T I E R)

Ai_Yokeda

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Ai_Yokeda wrote: »

On the topic of "Thews of the Harbringer" tanks.

OP mentions groups of tanks capturing resources and keeps. First off, i have not faced any one person or group of tanks that have not been defeated within minutes, but to suggest that they can openly bypass all mechanics to pvp such as; Negates or meat bags.is outrageous. Although, i do feel that since the healing nerf with battle spirit. their has been more players attempting to build even more resilient but more often failing.

However.. Id like to run into this tank group.
I play Xbox NA GreyHost Gt: Ai Yokeda

What up buddy! It’s Wolfy3777 here and I promise you I see it all the time. I just ignore them and they do no damage but the fact they can dispense of less skilled players on 60k+ health tanks with ease is honestly a big problem. And the worst part is when they throw themselves on a resource or on the way to something in which you HAVE to fight them, it does become a game breaking issue.

do you play Xbox NA? if so which campaign. I havent ran into any tank groups.. except for black marsh legion... and more often then not, we get through them quite quickly..

Wuuffyy

Ai_Yokeda wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Ai_Yokeda wrote: »

On the topic of "Thews of the Harbringer" tanks.

OP mentions groups of tanks capturing resources and keeps. First off, i have not faced any one person or group of tanks that have not been defeated within minutes, but to suggest that they can openly bypass all mechanics to pvp such as; Negates or meat bags.is outrageous. Although, i do feel that since the healing nerf with battle spirit. their has been more players attempting to build even more resilient but more often failing.

However.. Id like to run into this tank group.
I play Xbox NA GreyHost Gt: Ai Yokeda

What up buddy! It’s Wolfy3777 here and I promise you I see it all the time. I just ignore them and they do no damage but the fact they can dispense of less skilled players on 60k+ health tanks with ease is honestly a big problem. And the worst part is when they throw themselves on a resource or on the way to something in which you HAVE to fight them, it does become a game breaking issue.

do you play Xbox NA? if so which campaign. I havent ran into any tank groups.. except for black marsh legion... and more often then not, we get through them quite quickly..

IC and any campaign, literally

Ai_Yokeda

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Ai_Yokeda wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Ai_Yokeda wrote: »

On the topic of "Thews of the Harbringer" tanks.

OP mentions groups of tanks capturing resources and keeps. First off, i have not faced any one person or group of tanks that have not been defeated within minutes, but to suggest that they can openly bypass all mechanics to pvp such as; Negates or meat bags.is outrageous. Although, i do feel that since the healing nerf with battle spirit. their has been more players attempting to build even more resilient but more often failing.

However.. Id like to run into this tank group.
I play Xbox NA GreyHost Gt: Ai Yokeda

What up buddy! It’s Wolfy3777 here and I promise you I see it all the time. I just ignore them and they do no damage but the fact they can dispense of less skilled players on 60k+ health tanks with ease is honestly a big problem. And the worst part is when they throw themselves on a resource or on the way to something in which you HAVE to fight them, it does become a game breaking issue.

do you play Xbox NA? if so which campaign. I havent ran into any tank groups.. except for black marsh legion... and more often then not, we get through them quite quickly..

IC and any campaign, literally

Okay, well in that case.. i have yet to come across them.
been playing greyhost since it was named greyhost.

Abyssmol

Fawn4287 wrote: »

It seems every third person who is over dying in cyrodil plays a thews of the harbinger and 60k+ health with groups comprised of literally 6+ necros and wardens, which if you haven’t fought before good luck killing them and stopping them from taking keeps and resources . In the sewers nearly every person is some tank werewolf with 35-50k health, were healing changes supposed to reduce the sheer number of tank builds and move people towards speed and mobility oriented play, because proc set buffs and healing nerfs have done the polar opposite as exactly predicted by every decent PvPer on the forums.

I always predicted that this game was headed in this direction, the strategy to sell PvP players content is by providing gear that keeps creeping up the power level (Malacath and eternal vigor) of players has instead of creating instant burst kill builds (other than nightblades) has just let everyone else continue to drive health up further and further, with high 20K health being replaced by heavy armour builds sitting in the mid 30 to nearly 40k health range so that they run around burst proof. How much worse can it get? Nerfing CP crit only reinforces heavy armour malacath meta more so and the continued drop in usefulness of impen continues to push up the use of sturdy. So now everyones running around Cyrodil in 7 heavy, 7 sturdy and 35k health its no wonder you can’t activity finder a tank, they’re all in CP cyrodil. Health in CP PvP needs to be capped at 30k and no CP 25k, or cyrodil will once again turn in to a giant rolling tank stalemate.

What do you expect when most players in PVP now are NB with 5k to 6k WP damage trying to one shot people from stealth. Okay cap health but on the same token cap WP damage to 3.5K, right. PVP has become a game of hide and seek...

Recapitated

Fawn4287 wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

2: massivly nerf procsets but also increase the scaling on them [i.e. zaan would have a base tick of 201, on a tank build would get ~500 starting tick, but on a mag damage build it's scale up to about 4K starting tick] this would remove the "teeth" from tanks without completely screwing over damage builds

Scaling proc sets with stats will be far worse, just in the other direction.

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Bring the Trinity back please.

Just fort starters,

• Remove all healing gains from WD & SD.
• Separate damage crit & healing crit in cp.
• Reduce damage by X if shield/resto staff is equipped on either bar-In PvP-
• Increase DOT damage.
• PvP/player Taunt reduces target's damage by X by X seconds, only one player can be taunted at a time.
• Increase defile.
• Bring healer role back

Healer/Support
Tank/Support
DD

my 2c~flame shield activated

Remove all healing gains from WD & SD, clever idea actually.

So what would determine healing power other than max stats? Does a 60k health warden heavy armour thews of the harbinger tank deserve more healing power through passives and CP than a 20k health light armour magica build?

I'm not sure that heals scaling with offensive stats is the issue. Your HOTs can be as strong as you like, but if you have 20k health it's not going to make you unkillable unless you can disengage often.

The fact that all these high health builds are running Malacath and health-based heals -- meaning they're making up for lowish WD with a mythic and definitely not investing much in crit if at all -- suggests the problem isn't there.

YandereGirlfriend

I don't think that Nightblades are to blame for the meta.

In the current testing environment they are OP since they've received implicit buffs versus basically every other class (since they are unaffected by the testing changes by and large) and everyone is playing stamBlades which compounds the perceived problem. But any class can use the most oppressive proc sets and that (plus the lag) is the main driver of building beefy.

@Wolfpaw I would love to see Healing strength de-coupled from Spell/Weapon Damage. Make it scale on Max Stats only and %Healing Done mods only. That would mean that %Healing Done done would have to be buffed in order for dedicated Healers to make up the difference, but it would be a fantastic change that would separate the ability to damage from the ability to recover from damage. Also love your idea to separate completely Offensive Critical% and Healing Critical% for the same reason. And I agree that heals that scale with heal out to be abolished... that is, after all, what your actual Healer is meant for.

Recapitated

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I don't think that Nightblades are to blame for the meta.

In the current testing environment they are OP since they've received implicit buffs versus basically every other class (since they are unaffected by the testing changes by and large) and everyone is playing stamBlades which compounds the perceived problem. But any class can use the most oppressive proc sets and that (plus the lag) is the main driver of building beefy.

@Wolfpaw I would love to see Healing strength de-coupled from Spell/Weapon Damage. Make it scale on Max Stats only and %Healing Done mods only. That would mean that %Healing Done done would have to be buffed in order for dedicated Healers to make up the difference, but it would be a fantastic change that would separate the ability to damage from the ability to recover from damage. Also love your idea to separate completely Offensive Critical% and Healing Critical% for the same reason. And I agree that heals that scale with heal out to be abolished... that is, after all, what your actual Healer is meant for.

Right now most DD builds stack either max stats (magsorc being a typical example) or damage in pvp. If you remove the ability for WD and SD to buff heals the impact would fall disproportionately on specific specs no?

Take your standard squishy NB. They have high offensive stats. They are not tanky; they rely mostly on evasion to survive. What makes a class tanky is not so much that they don't face a trade-off between healing and damage. It seems the issue stems from having high heals, HOTs especially, but also your health not getting to zero for you to be dead before those HOTs reset the fight I think. That's due to damage mitigation, high health pools, and heals that scale on health.

Personally I'm not seeing the relevance of the trinity to PVP or the tank meta. There's no taunt, so you don't have a group context where someone can serve as a meat shield really. What exactly is a tank's job? I also think there's not much gained by demanding more coordination in PVP, sheer numbers are powerful enough as is IMO.

YandereGirlfriend

@Recapitated I've always thought it was nonsensical for heals to scale with Weapon/Spell Damage simply from an RPG perspective. Like, what is this attempting to simulate? The very word "damage" connotes that it has nothing to do with restoration yet the connection is still made (likely due to ZOS being too lazy to include other stats that would make more sense).

But setting that aside, most builds in PvP stack Damage over Max Stats due to its superior scaling and healing double-dip efficacy. That's true for basically all Stamina builds and it is true for most Magicka builds. Only Magicka (and then, only a small subset of classes and builds within Magicka - magSorc, magBlade, and magWarden) has the ability to realistically stack Max Stats due to the combination of class skills/passives and Inner Light (with an extra assist from CP-enabled campaigns). So it's for sure true that such a change would disadvantage the most popular damage-oriented specs but I personally think that's desirable since those specs were already overpowered compared to Max Stats builds due to their superior scaling potential and their double-dip into both damage and healing.

But you could go even further and simply sever the connection between offensive stats and healing entirely. Make healing entirely dependent upon Healing Done mods and perhaps Critical Healing (as distinct from offensive Critical Chance). That would require changing healing sets and strongly buffing the Healing Done bonus but it would 100% force the choice between damage and healing that is present in most other RPG combat systems.

And none of that is to say that you couldn't have healing built into class abilities in order to have a backdoor means of healing via offensive stats. Something like Critical Surge or Swallow Soul is (IMO) fine and makes classes interesting in a way that they largely aren't when everyone is using Vigor, Rally, and Radiating Regen. Having skills that simply heal for a fixed amount (such as Dark Deal) regardless of your offensive stats are also fine and are also much easier to balance for the Combat Team.

I definitely agree though that Health-based heals are highly suspect in both PvP and PvE and that clearly overpowered skills such as Arctic Blast make strong contributions to the desirability of health-stacking.

oscarovegren

I will never run a build which can be bursted from stealth by a stamNB. So yes, I run atleast 30k resist and 30k health on all my builds. My stamDK has 41k resist and 33k health. My magden has 30k resist and 40k health for example

Firstmep

Why are tanky builds so popular?
Beacuse we can!
I can hop on my stamden and run an ethical medium armor build with like 28k hp and 5k wpd, and get kills by lining up my offensive combo well.
Or I can equip crimson/syvarra and out out millions of dmg every bg passively, put 64 points into hp and become an absolute unit.
Even without procs I'd be better off running heavy armor stat build with malacath, I have a ton of mag costing buffs I need to maintain, I can get my Stam sustain from heavy attacks, my mag sustain from constitution, and still hit hard as hell due to malacath.
There is just no reason to play squishy builds on most classes, when you can put just as much dmg while being nigh unkillable.
We have already been down this road in the past with sets like fury, seventh etc.
Clearly the devs haven't learned their lesson from past mistakes.
Malacath should be reworked to have a bigger downside, procsets should scale with offensive stats and certain classes like stamden and stamcro need to be looked at individually to bring them more in line.
Overall we should be expected to sacrafice defenses in order to gain more damage, no matter what.
There should be a happy middle ground and everyone should be able to figure out where they want their builds to fall in the tanky/dmg spectrum.
It's fine for some classes to be more inherently tanky than others, but not to the extent we have right now.

Recapitated

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Recapitated I've always thought it was nonsensical for heals to scale with Weapon/Spell Damage simply from an RPG perspective. Like, what is this attempting to simulate? The very word "damage" connotes that it has nothing to do with restoration yet the connection is still made (likely due to ZOS being too lazy to include other stats that would make more sense).

But setting that aside, most builds in PvP stack Damage over Max Stats due to its superior scaling and healing double-dip efficacy. That's true for basically all Stamina builds and it is true for most Magicka builds. Only Magicka (and then, only a small subset of classes and builds within Magicka - magSorc, magBlade, and magWarden) has the ability to realistically stack Max Stats due to the combination of class skills/passives and Inner Light (with an extra assist from CP-enabled campaigns). So it's for sure true that such a change would disadvantage the most popular damage-oriented specs but I personally think that's desirable since those specs were already overpowered compared to Max Stats builds due to their superior scaling potential and their double-dip into both damage and healing.

But you could go even further and simply sever the connection between offensive stats and healing entirely. Make healing entirely dependent upon Healing Done mods and perhaps Critical Healing (as distinct from offensive Critical Chance). That would require changing healing sets and strongly buffing the Healing Done bonus but it would 100% force the choice between damage and healing that is present in most other RPG combat systems.

And none of that is to say that you couldn't have healing built into class abilities in order to have a backdoor means of healing via offensive stats. Something like Critical Surge or Swallow Soul is (IMO) fine and makes classes interesting in a way that they largely aren't when everyone is using Vigor, Rally, and Radiating Regen. Having skills that simply heal for a fixed amount (such as Dark Deal) regardless of your offensive stats are also fine and are also much easier to balance for the Combat Team.

I definitely agree though that Health-based heals are highly suspect in both PvP and PvE and that clearly overpowered skills such as Arctic Blast make strong contributions to the desirability of health-stacking.

Let's leave aside the question of max stats vs damage for now.

The reason so many specs use Vigor, Rally and RR seems to have nothing to do with scaling: those are just skills anyone can use in order to patch the many holes in our classes. If you give classes more heal options they'll become less popular. And if those are of the backdoor kind like crit surge, then I'm not sure what is being achieved aside from class identity — you still have offense driving heals.

I think WD and SD should just have been called stamina and magicka potency or something like that to convey what they really do. But either way, I'd much rather see the mechanics of the game work and feel right; if the naming conventions don't, or if they don't make power fantasy sense, I can live with it. (I naturally think of max stats as how much fuel you have in the tank, but in this game the amount of fuel you CAN have in your tank also affects how fast your car goes.)

What exactly do you think the consequences of heals not scaling off offensive stats would be? How would that change the meta in PVP (incl. how and how much grouping is incentived, how instanced PVP works...) and PVE? That seems so much more important to me than whether the trinity is respected on paper like it is in other RPGs.

Morwaenna

Are they even tanks though if they're able to dish out silly dmg thanks to procs and malacath?

hexentb16_ESO

They're pretty easy to deal with actually. I've been in pvp groups where my teammates don't think things through and just do the same thing they always do. They have trouble with Thews tanks. The days where you can mindlessly rely on the same old strats every time are coming to a close in ESO.

When it comes to tanks using Thews I tell them to wait till the ultimate is done, focus on one thews tank at a time, spam CCs and debuffs. They die pretty quickly.

Jaraal

hexentb16_ESO wrote: »

When it comes to tanks using Thews I tell them to wait till the ultimate is done, focus on one thews tank at a time, spam CCs and debuffs. They die pretty quickly.

Unless they're a necro with Hexproof and high health regen.

Fawn4287

Morwaenna wrote: »

Are they even tanks though if they're able to dish out silly dmg thanks to procs and malacath?

If your stats reflect those of a PvE tank I would say most definitely