So ZOS has decided to continue elder tanks online?

Fawn4287

It seems every third person who is over dying in cyrodil plays a thews of the harbinger and 60k+ health with groups comprised of literally 6+ necros and wardens, which if you haven’t fought before good luck killing them and stopping them from taking keeps and resources . In the sewers nearly every person is some tank werewolf with 35-50k health, were healing changes supposed to reduce the sheer number of tank builds and move people towards speed and mobility oriented play, because proc set buffs and healing nerfs have done the polar opposite as exactly predicted by every decent PvPer on the forums.

I always predicted that this game was headed in this direction, the strategy to sell PvP players content is by providing gear that keeps creeping up the power level (Malacath and eternal vigor) of players has instead of creating instant burst kill builds (other than nightblades) has just let everyone else continue to drive health up further and further, with high 20K health being replaced by heavy armour builds sitting in the mid 30 to nearly 40k health range so that they run around burst proof. How much worse can it get? Nerfing CP crit only reinforces heavy armour malacath meta more so and the continued drop in usefulness of impen continues to push up the use of sturdy. So now everyones running around Cyrodil in 7 heavy, 7 sturdy and 35k health its no wonder you can’t activity finder a tank, they’re all in CP cyrodil. Health in CP PvP needs to be capped at 30k and no CP 25k, or cyrodil will once again turn in to a giant rolling tank stalemate.

Jaraal

Sucks when the gank fails, doesn't it?


Perhaps build for extended pressure, rather than burst with no resources to follow up?

katorga

Playing Devil's Advocate.

Each percentage reduction in healing likely leads to an equal increase in health to compensate. 24 mos ago, everyone said target 25K in cyro, now they say 30K minimum. So I assume average players are playing it safe and going 35-40K.

ZOS probably has "marketing data" that most players love them proc sets. They have been going all in on them the last few releases, and going back and improving old ones. They seem to be nerfing anything that can compete with Malacath (probably not true, but it sure appears that way).

Health/proc builds were not impacted by the AOE tests. For some classes it was the only way left to play.

With server performance like it is a high health/proc build is the only reliable build. If you can't count on active abilities working...you need a buffer. Raw health and armor, and to some extent health regen are not impacted by server performance and always work. I have never seen a proc set fail in lag. Personally, I think that is the main reason they are so popular.

I think Markath changes will only reinforce the health/proc meta.

Barbaran

Well, buttons don't work.
So people are building over tanky to compensate.
Hard to live when you have to press you're heal 7 times, cross your fingers and jump on one foot to get it to possibly activate...
Seriously zos

JayKwellen

katorga wrote: »

@katorga With server performance like it is a high health/proc build is the only reliable build. If you can't count on active abilities working...you need a buffer. Raw health and armor, and to some extent health regen are not impacted by server performance and always work. I have never seen a proc set fail in lag. Personally, I think that is the main reason they are so popular.

Yes. Cyrodiil is so bad most of the time that anytime I play on a build that's squishy I end up getting demolished before I even know what's happening -- so now I just build all my characters to be more intrinsically tanky, bumping my health and healing received and health regen and overall mitigation to be higher than I would ever normally consider ideal, for no other reason than to try to out-tank the lag. Then I'll adjust up or down from there depending on if it's just moderate lag or 'barswapping and skills firing isn't a thing right now' lag.

Whether it's getting hit by a coldfire that didn't have any red ground circle, a colossus that didn't even animate at all, 5+ snipes that made no sound or graphic (not even debuffs) until I'm already dead by them, or getting killed by a player who's 30 meters away...but actually on top of me dropping dizzy swings, I just can't see him because either him or I (or both of us) are positionally desynched from the server and each other.

I only play magblades, so normally this is where cloak or shade or both would come in handy, except that cloak barely works even when the servers aren't on fire and shade absolutely doesn't work when the server room is a balmy 10,000C during prime time hours. Without being tanky enough to out-tank the lag, you're gonna die no matter what escape tools you theoretically have available to you.

Fawn4287

Jaraal wrote: »

Sucks when the gank fails, doesn't it?


Perhaps build for extended pressure, rather than burst with no resources to follow up?

If you read my other posts you would know for sure I am no nightblade or ganker haha, however trying to fight outnumbered against enemies that all have well over 30k health is absurd and it looks like I might be playing a cheesy DOT build if this is the direction the devs want to take the game.

techyeshic

Its so braindead. You could just get away if there were not always stacks of 30 of them just spamming CCs and roots. I even saw blazing shield out there today for the first time in ages. Kudos to them for only going part way in the meta, I guess.

Sleep724

NB damage is thru the roof so of course players are going to run high health builds. Who wants to play this game and not have a chance to fight back? I honestly don’t understand why that’s hard to understand. You keep ganking, players will keep stacking health. Simple as that.

Fawn4287

Sleep724 wrote: »

NB damage is thru the roof so of course players are going to run high health builds. Who wants to play this game and not have a chance to fight back? I honestly don’t understand why that’s hard to understand. You keep ganking, players will keep stacking health. Simple as that.

I would say nightblade alongside lag are the driving forces behind the constant health raising but you can be the one to post something about their crutches incap and cloak, the stamblade defence force is is almost as big and vocal as the “magsorc nerf post!” spamming army.

Banana

Once they finish these tests I shall return briefly to get my tier one rewards. I die quickly

oscarovegren

Nightblades and procs are the reason behind this tanky setups. No one want to be oneshooted or proced to death. Best way to survive this? High health/mitigation with purge (necro has cheap purge and warden has a free purge) and healthbased heals (also necro and warden).

I play 9 classes in PvP and I have built all classes to survive any NB burst and proc pressure. I wont change anything until the damage goes down significant

AyaDark

invisiability is overpovered.

No one game let you use it unlimited in combat !

They take DKs wings, but why this is in game ?

30 second invisiability + 25 second calldown will be fine.

It is not normal that they blink permament.

Hide do not work like that, if you know that player will do it.

It is not like : i know that you hide now and you hide ! Hide is more like wow it was unexpected, where did he go ?

It is not unexpected - to unexpect hide each second is just strange.

Ragnaroek93

oscarovegren wrote: »

Nightblades and procs are the reason behind this tanky setups. No one want to be oneshooted or proced to death. Best way to survive this? High health/mitigation with purge (necro has cheap purge and warden has a free purge) and healthbased heals (also necro and warden).

I play 9 classes in PvP and I have built all classes to survive any NB burst and proc pressure. I wont change anything until the damage goes down significant

Yes, proc sets are busted right now but that doesn't excuse the state of "tanks". It doesn't make any sense to justify stamcros and stamdens with 30-40k hp with proc sets nor does it explain why people play them. They don't play them because of procs, nb or sorc burst, they play them because they're outright broken in every way. It's simple as that.

When people complain about "tanks" in PvP I don't think they complain about actual tanks. They complain about stamcro and stamden which are by far the biggest oppressor in the game for over a year now because they're basically unkillable for most classes while being allowed to still have insanely high killing potential and pressure (yes, you can get really tanky on other classes too but when you won't be able to kill anybody who has a heal slotted or simply walks away in a straight line).

I don't want to sound rude but dieing in a PvP environment is part of PvP and everybody should be able to die (in normal scenarios, not when you get zerged down by 10 people) which simply isn't the case the right now. There's more than enough PvE content in this game for everybody who can't accept a virtual death in PvP.

Wuuffyy

Fawn4287 wrote: »

It seems every third person who is over dying in cyrodil plays a thews of the harbinger and 60k+ health with groups comprised of literally 6+ necros and wardens, which if you haven’t fought before good luck killing them and stopping them from taking keeps and resources . In the sewers nearly every person is some tank werewolf with 35-50k health, were healing changes supposed to reduce the sheer number of tank builds and move people towards speed and mobility oriented play, because proc set buffs and healing nerfs have done the polar opposite as exactly predicted by every decent PvPer on the forums.

I always predicted that this game was headed in this direction, the strategy to sell PvP players content is by providing gear that keeps creeping up the power level (Malacath and eternal vigor) of players has instead of creating instant burst kill builds (other than nightblades) has just let everyone else continue to drive health up further and further, with high 20K health being replaced by heavy armour builds sitting in the mid 30 to nearly 40k health range so that they run around burst proof. How much worse can it get? Nerfing CP crit only reinforces heavy armour malacath meta more so and the continued drop in usefulness of impen continues to push up the use of sturdy. So now everyones running around Cyrodil in 7 heavy, 7 sturdy and 35k health its no wonder you can’t activity finder a tank, they’re all in CP cyrodil. Health in CP PvP needs to be capped at 30k and no CP 25k, or cyrodil will once again turn in to a giant rolling tank stalemate.

[snip]

Heavy armor is not the sole reason of the health and tankiness. The passives are actually pretty bad and most people are still running 30-35k health w/o that. I’m a just under 30k health nb, not even trying.

Second, people don’t just run sturdy, they run well-fitted.. notice how everyone roll spams now, even mag builds?

[edited for baiting]

AyaDark

My build can negate 4-5 k hp per second from target. I can hit dodging players.

But people with 10 k heal per second and full major buffed is not ok.

And the same time necro has more power on dots + negate dots + purge + more defenth + 50+% negation of my healing + ... .

Why just so many ???

It is not a good option to rise pvp healing,regens - may be, but ... hp regen ?
But i have no goodhealing on my class ? Not ckasses are the same - not all players have hots for 5 k.

And instant healing is ... .

What i must do to heal with dragon blood ?

If i am 30 k hp and near dead ? It will heal for 30% *0.4 = 15 % with all buffs i have?

4500 ??? When execute hit me for 8 k ???

And some hots just heal for 2-3+ k hp per second ???

x48rph

oscarovegren wrote: »

Nightblades and procs are the reason behind this tanky setups. No one want to be oneshooted or proced to death. Best way to survive this? High health/mitigation with purge (necro has cheap purge and warden has a free purge) and healthbased heals (also necro and warden).

I play 9 classes in PvP and I have built all classes to survive any NB burst and proc pressure. I wont change anything until the damage goes down significant

Nightblades are not the reason. The reason is simple. With malacath, proc sets, and OP classes like stamina necro it's easy to build tanky high hp characters that can still dish out serious damage. Why would people gimp themselves by running less hp and mitigation when they don't have to. ZOS's attempted solution of gimping healing did nothing but hurt squishier builds while encouraging others to build even tankier setups.

RDMyers65b14_ESO

When you are a group of 12 and you run into a group of 40, you need all of the hit points and heals you can get just to have a chance to survive.

So, if you are going to complain about stuff that is broken, then you might want to complain about the right thing which is the population unbalanced.

Fawn4287

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

It seems every third person who is over dying in cyrodil plays a thews of the harbinger and 60k+ health with groups comprised of literally 6+ necros and wardens, which if you haven’t fought before good luck killing them and stopping them from taking keeps and resources . In the sewers nearly every person is some tank werewolf with 35-50k health, were healing changes supposed to reduce the sheer number of tank builds and move people towards speed and mobility oriented play, because proc set buffs and healing nerfs have done the polar opposite as exactly predicted by every decent PvPer on the forums.

I always predicted that this game was headed in this direction, the strategy to sell PvP players content is by providing gear that keeps creeping up the power level (Malacath and eternal vigor) of players has instead of creating instant burst kill builds (other than nightblades) has just let everyone else continue to drive health up further and further, with high 20K health being replaced by heavy armour builds sitting in the mid 30 to nearly 40k health range so that they run around burst proof. How much worse can it get? Nerfing CP crit only reinforces heavy armour malacath meta more so and the continued drop in usefulness of impen continues to push up the use of sturdy. So now everyones running around Cyrodil in 7 heavy, 7 sturdy and 35k health its no wonder you can’t activity finder a tank, they’re all in CP cyrodil. Health in CP PvP needs to be capped at 30k and no CP 25k, or cyrodil will once again turn in to a giant rolling tank stalemate.

[snip]

Heavy armor is not the sole reason of the health and tankiness. The passives are actually pretty bad and most people are still running 30-35k health w/o that. I’m a just under 30k health nb, not even trying.

Second, people don’t just run sturdy, they run well-fitted.. notice how everyone roll spams now, even mag builds?

😂 A roll spaming magbuild is not an issue for anyone other than the one playing it, the issue is all builds mag and stam running around with burst proof sized health bar of 33k+, coupled with the fact that 8/10 people run a sword and board backbar with huge block cost reduction from the weaponline, CP and sturdy. The moment they are pressured they turtle up, hold block and block cast heals until feeling safe again.

JayKwellen

Sleep724 wrote: »

@Sleep724 NB damage is thru the roof so of course players are going to run high health builds. Who wants to play this game and not have a chance to fight back? I honestly don’t understand why that’s hard to understand. You keep ganking, players will keep stacking health. Simple as that.

By "NB damage" I'm sure you're referring to stamina NB's right? Because if you're getting killed by any magblade, that isn't a bomber, before you're able to fight back then, well, the problem isn't them.

Even regarding stamNB's, if you think their damage is "thru the roof" what are your thoughts on stamdens and stamcros and magsorcs?

Because I'll tell you right now, the burst on my magsorc was overall far better than my magblade. Curse + meteor + streak + frag + execute is way more potential burst than soul harvest/Incap (which is super easy to dodge completely) + spectral bow (which is super easy to dodge completely -- a single dodge roll can negate 100% of a nightblades burst. You can literally break free and dodgeroll and still get out of the way before getting hit!). On my stamden sub assault + dizzy swing + dawnbreaker put down more hurt than any soul harvest/spec bow combo of mine...except that it could wipe whole groups of people and couldn't be dodged unless you see it coming and get lucky enough to do it at just the right time in just the right direction, and if it doesn't kill them you still have dizzy swing and execute to finish the job.

JayKwellen

AyaDark wrote: »

invisiability is overpovered.

No one game let you use it unlimited in combat !

They take DKs wings, but why this is in game ?

30 second invisiability + 25 second calldown will be fine.

It is not normal that they blink permament.

Hide do not work like that, if you know that player will do it.

It is not like : i know that you hide now and you hide ! Hide is more like wow it was unexpected, where did he go ?

It is not unexpected - to unexpect hide each second is just strange.

@AyaDark Okay then. So if you take away NB's biggest survivability tool what are you going to give them in return? More burst to make up for the loss in defense, an actual health based burst heal, or one of each?

Because if you're going to take away what is both one of the classes few defining abilities and one of it's few defensive (and offensive too, if you know how to use it) abilities, then I hope you're ready to accept compensating the class accordingly.

AyaDark

JayKwellen wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

invisiability is overpovered.

No one game let you use it unlimited in combat !

They take DKs wings, but why this is in game ?

30 second invisiability + 25 second calldown will be fine.

It is not normal that they blink permament.

Hide do not work like that, if you know that player will do it.

It is not like : i know that you hide now and you hide ! Hide is more like wow it was unexpected, where did he go ?

It is not unexpected - to unexpect hide each second is just strange.

@AyaDark Okay then. So if you take away NB's biggest survivability tool what are you going to give them in return? More burst to make up for the loss in defense, an actual health based burst heal, or one of each?

Because if you're going to take away what is both one of the classes few defining abilities and one of it's few defensive (and offensive too, if you know how to use it) abilities, then I hope you're ready to accept compensating the class accordingly.

What did you give DK when take wings away ?

Nothing.

The same here.

Dunning_Kruger

It’s ironic that all the real tanks sit in PvP while all the fake tanks sit in PvE*. I mean if they just wanted to avoid PvP they should just join the dungeon finder lol. But yes these 60k thews builds are honestly annoying . Just put a 4 second cooldown on thews. Easy fix.

AyaDark

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

It’s ironic that all the real tanks sit in PvP while all the fake tanks sit in PvE*. I mean if they just wanted to avoid PvP they should just join the dungeon finder lol. But yes these 60k thews builds are honestly annoying . Just put a 4 second cooldown on thews. Easy fix.

Or to give detect to those who AOE NB for 10 seconds.

Or i even do not mind if it will be like it is now. Really i do not care i am tired of all nerfs of all classes.

I only care about:
"When we take some thing from class we do not play = ok. Take all away.
Something is nerf in our class ? Bad balance - rework the class !"

Balance do not work this way.

If the same skill do 10 k dps and on another class 20 k dps, negate healing, is unavoidable, aoe ,cheap - normal player will say - yesit is overpovered, but it is like it is.

He will not say - its okey, balanced.

We all know the truth, we are not stupid here.

The same was with wings, this is useless.

The same as invis with 1 minute long and minute calldown.

"But we say like it is, not like: Oh it will be sooo powerfull, why do not you like it ?"

It is bad way of playing.

Hegron

AyaDark wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

invisiability is overpovered.

No one game let you use it unlimited in combat !

They take DKs wings, but why this is in game ?

30 second invisiability + 25 second calldown will be fine.

It is not normal that they blink permament.

Hide do not work like that, if you know that player will do it.

It is not like : i know that you hide now and you hide ! Hide is more like wow it was unexpected, where did he go ?

It is not unexpected - to unexpect hide each second is just strange.

@AyaDark Okay then. So if you take away NB's biggest survivability tool what are you going to give them in return? More burst to make up for the loss in defense, an actual health based burst heal, or one of each?

Because if you're going to take away what is both one of the classes few defining abilities and one of it's few defensive (and offensive too, if you know how to use it) abilities, then I hope you're ready to accept compensating the class accordingly.

What did you give DK when take wings away ?

Nothing.

The same here.

Dk's still have wings?!

notyuu

The reason pvp is turbo tank mode
Due to a lack of viable healing methods [i.e. burst] or alternative mechanics to comp for it [wards] for stamina builds are left wtih three options

1: build ganky: sneaky sneaky strike from the shadows hit like a truck and pray that your target isd ead before they can retaliate

2: build tanky: hp, sword n board, tanky chunky build with nothing but proc sets for murderin, stright up counters gank builds

3: be a useless fart: it's not very fun dying constantly and being unable to kill anything

so given those three options most people choose tanky....which puts a lot of pressure on mag builds to eaither bulk up to also be tanky or die a lot when they are outlasted by everyone and their dog...which results in more tanks...which means more tanks.

and it dosn't damn well help that zos is sending out proc sets left right and bloody center.

So here's a slightly mad idea on how to fix it

1: put healing back to -50%
2: massivly nerf procsets but also increase the scaling on them [i.e. zaan would have a base tick of 201, on a tank build would get ~500 starting tick, but on a mag damage build it's scale up to about 4K starting tick] this would remove the "teeth" from tanks without completely screwing over damage builds
3: give stamina a survival tool..a burst heal or a "sheild" [call it deflection if it makes you feel comfortable] just something to give them options outside of building tanky

katorga

JayKwellen wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

@katorga With server performance like it is a high health/proc build is the only reliable build. If you can't count on active abilities working...you need a buffer. Raw health and armor, and to some extent health regen are not impacted by server performance and always work. I have never seen a proc set fail in lag. Personally, I think that is the main reason they are so popular.

out-tank the lag.

That is just perfect. I'm plaguerizing that phrase!

hakan

"Nightblades are the reason" Nah they arent. This setup is the easiest to survive and have good damage regardless of nbs being present. People would still play this why the hell they would play anything else? You guys are just copying comments.

Edit: class also got nerfed every year. no berserk, major/minor brut, breach, maim. what else do you want now?

AyaDark wrote: »

invisiability is overpovered.

No one game let you use it unlimited in combat !

They take DKs wings, but why this is in game ?

30 second invisiability + 25 second calldown will be fine.

It is not normal that they blink permament.

Hide do not work like that, if you know that player will do it.

It is not like : i know that you hide now and you hide ! Hide is more like wow it was unexpected, where did he go ?

It is not unexpected - to unexpect hide each second is just strange.

this isnt same as other mmos. with that logic mages should have 5-7 seconds of cast time on every skill and skills like barrier, major buff/debuff skills, resurrect etc should have minutes of cooldown since in those games they are exactly like this.

then give trinkets and tab target system.. congrats you have wow clone number 713637!

Wolfpaw

Bring the Trinity back please.

Just fort starters,

• Remove all healing gains from WD & SD.
• Separate damage crit & healing crit in cp.
• Reduce damage by X if shield/resto staff is equipped on either bar-In PvP-
• Increase DOT damage.
• PvP/player Taunt reduces target's damage by X by X seconds, only one player can be taunted at a time.
• Increase defile.
• Bring healer role back

Healer/Support
Tank/Support
DD

my 2c~flame shield activated

katorga

notyuu wrote: »

2: massivly nerf procsets but also increase the scaling on them [i.e. zaan would have a base tick of 201, on a tank build would get ~500 starting tick, but on a mag damage build it's scale up to about 4K starting tick] this would remove the "teeth" from tanks without completely screwing over damage builds

Scaling proc sets with stats will be far worse, just in the other direction.

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Bring the Trinity back please.

Just fort starters,

• Remove all healing gains from WD & SD.
• Separate damage crit & healing crit in cp.
• Reduce damage by X if shield/resto staff is equipped on either bar-In PvP-
• Increase DOT damage.
• PvP/player Taunt reduces target's damage by X by X seconds, only one player can be taunted at a time.
• Increase defile.
• Bring healer role back

Healer/Support
Tank/Support
DD

my 2c~flame shield activated

Remove all healing gains from WD & SD, clever idea actually.

Wolfpaw

katorga wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

2: massivly nerf procsets but also increase the scaling on them [i.e. zaan would have a base tick of 201, on a tank build would get ~500 starting tick, but on a mag damage build it's scale up to about 4K starting tick] this would remove the "teeth" from tanks without completely screwing over damage builds

Scaling proc sets with stats will be far worse, just in the other direction.

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Bring the Trinity back please.

Just fort starters,

• Remove all healing gains from WD & SD.
• Separate damage crit & healing crit in cp.
• Reduce damage by X if shield/resto staff is equipped on either bar-In PvP-
• Increase DOT damage.
• PvP/player Taunt reduces target's damage by X by X seconds, only one player can be taunted at a time.
• Increase defile.
• Bring healer role back

Healer/Support
Tank/Support
DD

my 2c~flame shield activated

Remove all healing gains from WD & SD, clever idea actually.

It's an odd pairing.

Fawn4287

katorga wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

2: massivly nerf procsets but also increase the scaling on them [i.e. zaan would have a base tick of 201, on a tank build would get ~500 starting tick, but on a mag damage build it's scale up to about 4K starting tick] this would remove the "teeth" from tanks without completely screwing over damage builds

Scaling proc sets with stats will be far worse, just in the other direction.

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Bring the Trinity back please.

Just fort starters,

• Remove all healing gains from WD & SD.
• Separate damage crit & healing crit in cp.
• Reduce damage by X if shield/resto staff is equipped on either bar-In PvP-
• Increase DOT damage.
• PvP/player Taunt reduces target's damage by X by X seconds, only one player can be taunted at a time.
• Increase defile.
• Bring healer role back

Healer/Support
Tank/Support
DD

my 2c~flame shield activated

Remove all healing gains from WD & SD, clever idea actually.

So what would determine healing power other than max stats? Does a 60k health warden heavy armour thews of the harbinger tank deserve more healing power through passives and CP than a 20k health light armour magica build?