So Sheer Venom gets a nerf

Canned_Apples

but not the other broken proc sets?
@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

kalunte

venomous smite ftw.

Morwaenna

Good.

Atherakhia

This wasn't much of a nerf either. It is still going to be used by everyone with a bow.

Recapitated

Canned_Apples wrote: »

but not the other broken proc sets?
@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

At least it seems like it's on their radar, up until now all we'd seen was a buff and sidegrade? to vate 2h

katorga

So they brought it in line with the ~2K per second metric they seem to use for procs. 6.5K*2/6 almost dead on. Meh.

I don't get why people think they will backtrack on proc sets. They have been going all out on them since they put Venomous Spite in, adding new ones, improving old ones, and nerfing stat sets left and right.

Banana

Yep. Clearly the dart board/spreadsheet has fallen off the wall and they don't know what to do next.

Wuuffyy

Lol. They just bringing it in line with other procs, to make new ones, lol

Rakdos

Atherakhia wrote: »

This wasn't much of a nerf either. It is still going to be used by everyone with a bow.

I will keeep using it. the dots build can still easily deal 1.3m-1.5m damage in a deathmatch game after this nerf

Wolfpaw

I wish this game provided a way to clear dots.

Canned_Apples

Wolfpaw wrote: »

I wish this game provided a way to clear dots.

You can apply dots and proc faster than you can cleanse them...and only templars have a good purge.

One skill and I have 5 dots on me.

JayKwellen

Proc sets are fine. You can't just throw on something like venomous smite and hunters venom and expect to be carried to the top of the leaderboards. Your armor isn't going to carry you to a summit you weren't already able to climb. As always, skill remains the great equalizer.

Here's an example of what highly skilled gameplay looks like: https://youtu.be/clfi6k7LifY

Firstmep

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

I wish this game provided a way to clear dots.

You can apply dots and proc faster than you can cleanse them...and only templars have a good purge.

One skill and I have 5 dots on me.

No. 5k Magicka is not good, and you can spam that all game and not rid of all dots.
Templars don't have a good purge lol.

FirmamentOfStars

JayKwellen wrote: »

Proc sets are fine. You can't just throw on something like venomous smite and hunters venom and expect to be carried to the top of the leaderboards. Your armor isn't going to carry you to a summit you weren't already able to climb. As always, skill remains the great equalizer.

Here's an example of what highly skilled gameplay looks like: https://youtu.be/clfi6k7LifY

I really hope you got the sarcasm in the whole video or in the video description.

The video exactly shows how zero skill can result in high performance with such sets.

Quelmiran

SavageChain wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

Proc sets are fine. You can't just throw on something like venomous smite and hunters venom and expect to be carried to the top of the leaderboards. Your armor isn't going to carry you to a summit you weren't already able to climb. As always, skill remains the great equalizer.

Here's an example of what highly skilled gameplay looks like: https://youtu.be/clfi6k7LifY

I really hope you got the sarcasm in the whole video or in the video description.

The video exactly shows how zero skill can result in high performance with such sets.

It seems that you are the one that didn't.
That was a sarcasm on a sarcastic video.

/sarcasmception

olsborg

Nerf all proccsets pls. Combat is devoid of skill and accomplishment atm.

Valdek

I enjoyed how subtle that video was from the start xD

JobooAGS

Sheer venom didn’t get nerfed hard enough

JayKwellen

SavageChain wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

Proc sets are fine. You can't just throw on something like venomous smite and hunters venom and expect to be carried to the top of the leaderboards. Your armor isn't going to carry you to a summit you weren't already able to climb. As always, skill remains the great equalizer.

Here's an example of what highly skilled gameplay looks like: https://youtu.be/clfi6k7LifY

I really hope you got the sarcasm in the whole video or in the video description.

The video exactly shows how zero skill can result in high performance with such sets.

@SavageChain Oh for sure.

That anybody could watch that video, see Else doing 1,000,000 damage and getting the top or near top score in multiple BGs while doing nothing but light attacking and using poison injection, and genuinely think that nonsense is healthy for the game is just...literally incomprehensible to me. Some of those names in that video are people I know from Cyrodiil too, people who aren't exactly potatoes. Or low APM's, or whatever it is ZOS is calling the unskilled these days.

I mean come on. Dude did nothing but spam one cheap easy to apply ability and basically came out on top every game. Imagine if he actually, you know, used any other damage skills? If he actually did a surprise attack into an incap and a spectral bow while VS/HV were ticking? Who cares if your merciless resolve tooltip is only 14k and your incap is only 11k when your proc sets are doing so much damage that they'll kill people by themselves anyway?

It is indeed exactly what you said - a showcase of how the multi proc set stacking meta is a cancerous malignancy which punishes actual time investment and work, not to mention genuinely lowers the quality of PvP all around, all the while rewarding otherwise lazy, unimaginative, and unskilled gameplay, and that they should be either brought to heel, or excised from the game completely, as soon as humanly possible.

So yeah bro I definitely got it. 100%.

lucky_Sage

proc sets need to be nerfed but i guess zos didn't learn from the last proc meta.

Firstmep

lucky_Sage wrote: »

proc sets need to be nerfed but i guess zos didn't learn from the last proc meta.

Nah, these procs require far less effort than the last batch.

Well most of them anyway.

And i think thats the point. They have been looking for ways to close the gap between bad and good players for a long time.

Procsets are an easy way to make bad players feel powerful.

Also they have been eyeballing crit nerfs for a while now, wouldnt be suprised if they wanted procsets to take over pve at some point in the future.

You can already pull respectable dps at endgame wearing procs only.

lucky_Sage

Firstmep wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

proc sets need to be nerfed but i guess zos didn't learn from the last proc meta.

Nah, these procs require far less effort than the last batch.

Well most of them anyway.

And i think thats the point. They have been looking for ways to close the gap between bad and good players for a long time.

Procsets are an easy way to make bad players feel powerful.

Also they have been eyeballing crit nerfs for a while now, wouldnt be suprised if they wanted procsets to take over pve at some point in the future.

You can already pull respectable dps at endgame wearing procs only.

In a 1v1 proc sets aren’t hard to deal with it’s when your fighting 2 to 4 people with them when you have 6 to 12 procs on you. Yes I’ve fought a whole team running 3 proc sets it is almost every match now
It won’t be as bad in BG’s once groups come back and can bring a healer.

OlumoGarbag

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

proc sets need to be nerfed but i guess zos didn't learn from the last proc meta.

Nah, these procs require far less effort than the last batch.

Well most of them anyway.

And i think thats the point. They have been looking for ways to close the gap between bad and good players for a long time.

Procsets are an easy way to make bad players feel powerful.

Also they have been eyeballing crit nerfs for a while now, wouldnt be suprised if they wanted procsets to take over pve at some point in the future.

You can already pull respectable dps at endgame wearing procs only.

In a 1v1 proc sets aren’t hard to deal with it’s when your fighting 2 to 4 people with them when you have 6 to 12 procs on you. Yes I’ve fought a whole team running 3 proc sets it is almost every match now
It won’t be as bad in BG’s once groups come back and can bring a healer.

lul yeah sure having 50k tooltip worth of proc sets on you from 1 person isnt a problem... wait until vate destro next patch and you will change your mind about that

Bucky_13

JayKwellen wrote: »

Proc sets are fine. You can't just throw on something like venomous smite and hunters venom and expect to be carried to the top of the leaderboards. Your armor isn't going to carry you to a summit you weren't already able to climb. As always, skill remains the great equalizer.

Here's an example of what highly skilled gameplay looks like: https://youtu.be/clfi6k7LifY

As bad as proc sets are, that video almost made them worth it. Almost...

Fawn4287

JayKwellen wrote: »

SavageChain wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

Proc sets are fine. You can't just throw on something like venomous smite and hunters venom and expect to be carried to the top of the leaderboards. Your armor isn't going to carry you to a summit you weren't already able to climb. As always, skill remains the great equalizer.

Here's an example of what highly skilled gameplay looks like: https://youtu.be/clfi6k7LifY

I really hope you got the sarcasm in the whole video or in the video description.

The video exactly shows how zero skill can result in high performance with such sets.

@SavageChain Oh for sure.

That anybody could watch that video, see Else doing 1,000,000 damage and getting the top or near top score in multiple BGs while doing nothing but light attacking and using poison injection, and genuinely think that nonsense is healthy for the game is just...literally incomprehensible to me. Some of those names in that video are people I know from Cyrodiil too, people who aren't exactly potatoes. Or low APM's, or whatever it is ZOS is calling the unskilled these days.

I mean come on. Dude did nothing but spam one cheap easy to apply ability and basically came out on top every game. Imagine if he actually, you know, used any other damage skills? If he actually did a surprise attack into an incap and a spectral bow while VS/HV were ticking? Who cares if your merciless resolve tooltip is only 14k and your incap is only 11k when your proc sets are doing so much damage that they'll kill people by themselves anyway?

It is indeed exactly what you said - a showcase of how the multi proc set stacking meta is a cancerous malignancy which punishes actual time investment and work, not to mention genuinely lowers the quality of PvP all around, all the while rewarding otherwise lazy, unimaginative, and unskilled gameplay, and that they should be either brought to heel, or excised from the game completely, as soon as humanly possible.

So yeah bro I definitely got it. 100%.

I am not one to defend or promote the use of proc sets in any way and bgs/no CP is its own hell hole of proc combo cheese builds but when players in CP run around on builds in heavy armour with 35k+ health in Cyro stack spamming rapid regen how else other than with the use of strong DOTs or proc sets can you try to put enough pressure on someone? 10K effective weapon power isn’t enough to cut people down when every zergling and pug player has decided to essentially make a burst proof tank, proc sets are going to be seen as an easy option to thin the Xv1 players down.

lucky_Sage

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

proc sets need to be nerfed but i guess zos didn't learn from the last proc meta.

Nah, these procs require far less effort than the last batch.

Well most of them anyway.

And i think thats the point. They have been looking for ways to close the gap between bad and good players for a long time.

Procsets are an easy way to make bad players feel powerful.

Also they have been eyeballing crit nerfs for a while now, wouldnt be suprised if they wanted procsets to take over pve at some point in the future.

You can already pull respectable dps at endgame wearing procs only.

In a 1v1 proc sets aren’t hard to deal with it’s when your fighting 2 to 4 people with them when you have 6 to 12 procs on you. Yes I’ve fought a whole team running 3 proc sets it is almost every match now
It won’t be as bad in BG’s once groups come back and can bring a healer.

lul yeah sure having 50k tooltip worth of proc sets on you from 1 person isnt a problem... wait until vate destro next patch and you will change your mind about that

My build was made to deal with proc sets. I run curse eater on my back bar for a reason 100% needed for solo in this proc meta

JayKwellen

Fawn4287 wrote: »

I am not one to defend or promote the use of proc sets in any way and bgs/no CP is its own hell hole of proc combo cheese builds but when players in CP run around on builds in heavy armour with 35k+ health in Cyro stack spamming rapid regen how else other than with the use of strong DOTs or proc sets can you try to put enough pressure on someone? 10K effective weapon power isn’t enough to cut people down when every zergling and pug player has decided to essentially make a burst proof tank, proc sets are going to be seen as an easy option to thin the Xv1 players down.

Well if you're talking about ball groups or coordinated small-man groups, because really those are the only people who are going to have things like coordinated HoT stacking, then DOTs and proc sets aren't going to matter anyway. Random ballgroup magden #6 is just going laugh at your Caluurion proc and effortlessly heal through your sheer venom. The only thing that will wipe groups like that are negates (usually multiple, as often they'll just negate your negate, so someone will need to negate their negate they negated your original negate with), coordinated and well-timed ulti-dumps (usually has to be big ones too, like harmonied novas and collosi, just dropping a couple meteors or whatever ain't cutting it), meatbags (if you can somehow find a way to keep them in it), or simply swarm them with a huge zerg.

As for the tanky zerglings? That's gonna be a long dissertation which I don't really feel like writing, but I will say that I still don't believe procs are the answer to that. Relying on procs to deal with tanky players is simply creating one illness to treat another.

It's literally just an arms race, because the more cancerous proc sets metastasize the more people are just going to build tanky just to survive them. I'll admit I do it myself. I play a dark cloak NB, and all I have for healing is regen, cloak, and swallow soul. One person spamming hunters venom, sheer venom, and poison inject means I have to keep cloak and regen up at all times just to not lose health, as neither one can outheal them on its own. That's 6k mag every 6 seconds just to negate the health cost of their 2.7k proc trigger every 10 seconds. So already he's at a 2:1 advantage from a resource standpoint, and he's at an advantage from a time standpoint as I have to take 2 GCD's every 6 seconds to not die, he only needs to take 1 every 10 to keep that pressure up, so he has a roughly 3:1 advantage over me there too. So, with the click of a single button, our proc set hero has shifted the fight severely in his favor, and that's before he uses any other abilities at all. The second you add a second person to this scenario the pressure outweighs the totality of my healing abilities, and I'm forced to dance around pillars and rocks and stairs because I can't survive being in the open for more than a few seconds.

So what can I do about this? Build for as much healing, health recovery, health, and mitigation as possible without destroying my build. I'm not doing it because I want to, I'm doing it because I have to, otherwise it'd just be a slaughter every time I run into more than one person. That, or I'll just be spending 99.9% of my time running around trees.

To be honest though, I don't blame the players for this. They just don't wanna die, I get that. I blame ZOS for allowing this to happen in the first place. They made it easy to run extremely high damage/burst builds in heavy armor, allowing heals to scale linearly with damage, allowed multiples of the same heal to stack infinitely, and made sources of flat unmitigatable defense abundant. They made it so easy to tank with little downside by blurring the lines between what tanking, damage, and healing even is. Had they taken a harder line from the beginning and made it clear that you have to sacrifice one for the other this who situation could have been blunted from the very beginning.

Had they been firm with the people constantly calling for nerfs that yes, you're going to die in PvP, that is indeed the point, and if you don't enjoy it you can practice and improve yourself like everyone else, then this all could have been avoided. However doing so would have upset the people who don't want to work for success, who bristle at the idea of having to do anything other than what they want to do, and who can't accept the fact that sometimes in life people are just better than you and you're going to lose. They would have also needed to create and support a place more friendly and engaging for newer players to learn the ropes (because the <50 campaigns and battlegrounds sure as hell isn't that place), so that they could have a place to gain experience and not get farmed mercilessly. None of this happened though, so now we're just stuck in a positive feedback loop, and unfortunately it seems that every change ZOS does attempt to make just boils down to putting more fuel on fire.

JayKwellen

lucky_Sage wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

proc sets need to be nerfed but i guess zos didn't learn from the last proc meta.

Nah, these procs require far less effort than the last batch.

Well most of them anyway.

And i think thats the point. They have been looking for ways to close the gap between bad and good players for a long time.

Procsets are an easy way to make bad players feel powerful.

Also they have been eyeballing crit nerfs for a while now, wouldnt be suprised if they wanted procsets to take over pve at some point in the future.

You can already pull respectable dps at endgame wearing procs only.

In a 1v1 proc sets aren’t hard to deal with it’s when your fighting 2 to 4 people with them when you have 6 to 12 procs on you. Yes I’ve fought a whole team running 3 proc sets it is almost every match now
It won’t be as bad in BG’s once groups come back and can bring a healer.

lul yeah sure having 50k tooltip worth of proc sets on you from 1 person isnt a problem... wait until vate destro next patch and you will change your mind about that

My build was made to deal with proc sets. I run curse eater on my back bar for a reason 100% needed for solo in this proc meta

@lucky_Sage I've never used curse eater, but I'm assuming regeneration counts as a direct heal right? I wonder if dark cloak does too. As a magblade I don't have a purge, so this is an interesting idea, my biggest concern being the cooldown and the limited number of effects purged. I think I'm gonna mess with it though and see if I can come up with something workable.
.

lucky_Sage

JayKwellen wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

proc sets need to be nerfed but i guess zos didn't learn from the last proc meta.

Nah, these procs require far less effort than the last batch.

Well most of them anyway.

And i think thats the point. They have been looking for ways to close the gap between bad and good players for a long time.

Procsets are an easy way to make bad players feel powerful.

Also they have been eyeballing crit nerfs for a while now, wouldnt be suprised if they wanted procsets to take over pve at some point in the future.

You can already pull respectable dps at endgame wearing procs only.

In a 1v1 proc sets aren’t hard to deal with it’s when your fighting 2 to 4 people with them when you have 6 to 12 procs on you. Yes I’ve fought a whole team running 3 proc sets it is almost every match now
It won’t be as bad in BG’s once groups come back and can bring a healer.

lul yeah sure having 50k tooltip worth of proc sets on you from 1 person isnt a problem... wait until vate destro next patch and you will change your mind about that

My build was made to deal with proc sets. I run curse eater on my back bar for a reason 100% needed for solo in this proc meta

@lucky_Sage I've never used curse eater, but I'm assuming regeneration counts as a direct heal right? I wonder if dark cloak does too. As a magblade I don't have a purge, so this is an interesting idea, my biggest concern being the cooldown and the limited number of effects purged. I think I'm gonna mess with it though and see if I can come up with something workable.
.

@JayKwellen
I’m a Magdk so I proc it with gDB. It works great but it is limited which is where when fighting multiple people with proc sets it’s really hard to survive. But it is the only defense I have unless I have a healer following me around.
I run 2 pc blood spawn 5 pc bsw 5 pc curse eater 1 pc trainee 1pc Malacath . I have 4K spell dmg full buffed 1500 mag recovery. 18.5k stam 25k hp and about 32k mag
Also since I’m a magdk I use defensive stance to maximize my blocking which I can do a lot and allows me to run well fitted and not sturdy so I can block and dodge almost as much as a stam build with very high block mitigation on my back bar.

YandereGirlfriend

@lucky_Sage I use the same Curse-Eater back-bar on my magDK as well, cheers! It's such a nice set, I'm surprised that more people don't use it. The combination of mag sustain and a free mini-purge is hard to beat.

wheem_ESO

JayKwellen wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

proc sets need to be nerfed but i guess zos didn't learn from the last proc meta.

Nah, these procs require far less effort than the last batch.

Well most of them anyway.

And i think thats the point. They have been looking for ways to close the gap between bad and good players for a long time.

Procsets are an easy way to make bad players feel powerful.

Also they have been eyeballing crit nerfs for a while now, wouldnt be suprised if they wanted procsets to take over pve at some point in the future.

You can already pull respectable dps at endgame wearing procs only.

In a 1v1 proc sets aren’t hard to deal with it’s when your fighting 2 to 4 people with them when you have 6 to 12 procs on you. Yes I’ve fought a whole team running 3 proc sets it is almost every match now
It won’t be as bad in BG’s once groups come back and can bring a healer.

lul yeah sure having 50k tooltip worth of proc sets on you from 1 person isnt a problem... wait until vate destro next patch and you will change your mind about that

My build was made to deal with proc sets. I run curse eater on my back bar for a reason 100% needed for solo in this proc meta

@lucky_Sage I've never used curse eater, but I'm assuming regeneration counts as a direct heal right? I wonder if dark cloak does too. As a magblade I don't have a purge, so this is an interesting idea, my biggest concern being the cooldown and the limited number of effects purged. I think I'm gonna mess with it though and see if I can come up with something workable.
.

Regeneration is a heal over time, and won't trigger Curse Eater's 5 piece set bonus. Going by tooltips, the only class ability that a Magicka Nightblade could use to trigger the set would be Sap Essence, which would obviously only work in melee range. Outside of class skills, I suppose you could use Combat Prayer or Healing Springs, but neither is particularly good in PvP (other than zerging maybe?) Even then, I'm not 100% sure about Healing Springs, but the tooltip indicates a small up-front heal preceding the ground-based HOT.

The Wyrd Tree's Blessing set might be an option, as long as you only have it active on your back bar (to better control when it triggers). 'Course even then, you may end up putting it on cooldown when you don't really need the cleanse, just by rebuffing or healing from some burst damage.