Midyear Mayhem - Why are you encouraging PvE boss grinds in a PvP event?

Icaruzs

Firstmep wrote: »

thegreatme wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Midyear Mayhem is a PvP event. So... you'd think that that special reward for the event--the style pages--should drop from... oh... PvP activities? Like from earning AP. Or from doing BGs matches. If the drop rate of these style pages are anything like Second Legion or Legion Zero, they're going to be f***ing grindy, with people who report getting nothing even after dozens of kills.

It's almost like you've completely ignored the feedback from the previous two Midyears.

While I do agree that they need to put a higher drop rate on style pages (coughs at the Legion style pages), forcing everyone to participate in PvP exclusively for an event in order to get either tickets or style pages is wildly unfair and unbalanced to people who don't PvP or can't keep up with the """"professionals"""".

I'm all for encouraging more people to participate in PvP as an activity and all, and it can be pretty fun when you're not getting steamroll roflstomped by "Pro PvPer" 20 man groups who are basically immortal to anyone else who isn't a "pro PvPer" and half the time battles are won by who has the least lag, except for the fact that you can be blocked from ever getting a single thing from the event by other players, which is unique only to PvP. Other players can't stop you from completing objectives in PvE events. They can in PvP. And in PvP they can do it maliciously with full knowledge they're making your day harder just for the lulz.

Unless they can find a way to reward non-PvPers or people who aren't good at PvP/getting kills, its a system that's never going to work.

It was bad enough when PvE'ers just wanted to farm the bosses nearest their home base for tickets and you'd have mobs of 20+ per opposing faction just camping each factions' base entrance mowing down PvEers who didn't even have Tel Var to make killing them profitable and were even using gap-closers to bunnyhop base platforms (which isn't even supposed to be allowed).

And that was when the event didn't require PvP to complete the event. Hard pass on an event that does require it, and I'm not that squeamish about PvP.

But pvpers are forced to pve for event tickets thru most events, allow me to get those tickets by doing bgs when it's summetset event and we Gucci.

Killing a WB and completing a delve is 100x easier even with pvp sets than doing the same with enemy players, as a pve player with pve sets...

x48rph

VaranisArano wrote: »

And for players who prefer PVP, its like "Why am I fighting World Bosses for the rewards for a PVP event?"

Pretty much this. It's a pvp event and literally none of the rewards actually require any pvp. You can get them all without ever getting in a fight with another player (theoretically at least)

Dalsinthus

stefj68 wrote: »

why are you talking about that on a pts forum thread?

Testing for the event is on the current PTS.

I appreciate that they want people to play IC - I love IC - but tying the style page rewards to PVE bosses is frustrating. I want to play pvp during the Mayhem event, not farm bosses. Too bad I'm addicted to those event style pages.

wheem_ESO

Icaruzs wrote: »

Killing a WB and completing a delve is 100x easier even with pvp sets than doing the same with enemy players, as a pve player with pve sets...

That might be true, but at least PvE players never have to touch PvP if they want to get "proper" gear for the part of the game that they enjoy. I logged out of the live servers a few minutes ago after my wrist started hurting from doing normal Maelstrom arena for the umpteenth time, trying to get a Fire and/or Lightning Staff of Succession to try out in PvP.

I do not like PvE at all, yet am oftentimes forced to spend hours and hours "farming" it in order to do PvP with the gear setup I want to use (or even just try out).

Joy_Division

code65536 wrote: »

Midyear Mayhem is a PvP event. So... you'd think that that special reward for the event--the style pages--should drop from... oh... PvP activities? Like from earning AP. Or from doing BGs matches. If the drop rate of these style pages are anything like Second Legion or Legion Zero, they're going to be f***ing grindy, with people who report getting nothing even after dozens of kills.

It's almost like you've completely ignored the feedback from the previous two Midyears.

I suspect you know the answer to this and are just venting.

Going on 6 years, ZOS is still trying attract player to go into Imperial City and because they insist on categorizing it as a "PvP zone," of course ZOS is going to use Midyear Mayhem as a means to do so.

Or do you think they'd actually come up with something interesting and PvP related, like having stuff spawn in cyrodiil and have players actually fight for these pages as opposed to RNG grindfests?

Jaraal

Joy_Division wrote: »

Or do you think they'd actually come up with something interesting and PvP related, like having stuff spawn in cyrodiil and have players actually fight for these pages as opposed to RNG grindfests?

Wouldn't that be fun ?

Small rewards box (like the dolmen / IC portal chests or harrowstorm reliquaries) spawns on the flag each time you flip a resource, larger box spawns on flag when you flip a keep, with a guaranteed style page drop.

I would play that all day.

thegreatme

Firstmep wrote: »

But pvpers are forced to pve for event tickets thru most events, allow me to get those tickets by doing bgs when it's summetset event and we Gucci.

idk wrote: »

Most of the events throughout the year are PvE.

In other words, forcing everyone to participate in PvE exclusively for an event in order to get either ticket or style pages is wildly unfair and unbalanced to people who don't PvE (except for when Zos forces them to).

I think you're both missing the most important point of what I said.

...except for the fact that you can be blocked from ever getting a single thing from the event by other players, which is unique only to PvP. Other players can't stop you from completing objectives in PvE events. They can in PvP. And in PvP they can do it maliciously with full knowledge they're making your day harder just for the lulz.

Unless they can find a way to reward non-PvPers or people who aren't good at PvP/getting kills, its a system that's never going to work.

It really doesn't kill you, as a pvper, to join a big 20-man WB group during Summerset and burn down a boss in 5 minutes, and its comparatively much easier, quicker, and simpler than any PvP objective in either Cyrodiil or Imp City.

Meanwhile PvEers going into Cyro or Imp City who just want to get their tickets and get out get honed in on and roflstomped for "easy farming" by PvPers who know full well they're basically just picking on the "wimpy kids on the playground" just because they can.

You show me a PvE event where I can deliberately sabotage you completing your PvE objective purely so I can sit back and laugh at your frustration and then we can have a proper argument about which one ZoS """should""" prioritize.

VaranisArano

thegreatme wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

But pvpers are forced to pve for event tickets thru most events, allow me to get those tickets by doing bgs when it's summetset event and we Gucci.

idk wrote: »

Most of the events throughout the year are PvE.

In other words, forcing everyone to participate in PvE exclusively for an event in order to get either ticket or style pages is wildly unfair and unbalanced to people who don't PvE (except for when Zos forces them to).

I think you're both missing the most important point of what I said.

...except for the fact that you can be blocked from ever getting a single thing from the event by other players, which is unique only to PvP. Other players can't stop you from completing objectives in PvE events. They can in PvP. And in PvP they can do it maliciously with full knowledge they're making your day harder just for the lulz.

Unless they can find a way to reward non-PvPers or people who aren't good at PvP/getting kills, its a system that's never going to work.

It really doesn't kill you, as a pvper, to join a big 20-man WB group during Summerset and burn down a boss in 5 minutes, and its comparatively much easier, quicker, and simpler than any PvP objective in either Cyrodiil or Imp City.

Meanwhile PvEers going into Cyro or Imp City who just want to get their tickets and get out get honed in on and roflstomped for "easy farming" by PvPers who know full well they're basically just picking on the "wimpy kids on the playground" just because they can.

You show me a PvE event where I can deliberately sabotage you completing your PvE objective purely so I can sit back and laugh at your frustration and then we can have a proper argument about which one ZoS """should""" prioritize.

With the caveat that I think the "but I'm forced to PVE" argument is as silly as the "but I'm forced to PVP" in a game that deliberately balances PVE and PVP together...

I don't think this argument really holds up.

Technically, you can kick people from your group in the Undaunted Event if you really want to indulge yourself in preventing people from reaching their goal.

Except, wait, they can just queue up for a different group. Or run solo. Or make a premade. They've got loads of options to get their tickets. You can't actually roadblock them.

Which, come to think about it, is just like both PVP events. You've got loads of options for the event tickets in Cyrodiil - between scouting quests and five towns worth of quests, nobody can roadblock you.

Even in IC, there are six districts (and usually multiple campaigns). On a PVE build when the districts were owned by enemies, I was able to complete at least one daily per day during the IC event. Died a fair bit doing it because I just said "eff strategy and PVP prep, I'm sprinting around instead", but hey, I dust off and try again, and it didn't take too long. Heck, the Arena Daily can even be completed from the safety of your respawn platform if you are patient.

You die, you respawn, you try again or you try something else and you'll get your event tickets eventually. Its only human to get frustrated at repeated deaths, but with so many options enemy players can't really stop you from getting your tickets unless you give up completely.

It might take longer than five minutes, though, and apparently we can't have that.


On a side note, I don't know if this will help you much, but I figured I'd share.
One thing I learned early as a PVE-only player who became a PVPer thanks to wanting Master Angler is that getting frustrated with enemy players or hating them for killing me was the sort of attitude that actively made my PVP experience worse. I became unhappy when I lost, got even unhappier when I dwelt on the "unfairness" of me losing, and my mood would quickly sour. PVP wasn't fun once I got grumpy. Once I realized what I was doing to myself...well, I won't say I still don't battle that urge to blame the enemy when they kill me, but I'm a lot happier when I remember that death is inevitable in PVP. Enemies are gonna kill me in "unfair" fights, and that's okay. I can rez up, try again, or try something else.

Jaraal

VaranisArano wrote: »

Even in IC, there are six districts (and usually multiple campaigns). On a PVE build when the districts were owned by enemies, I was able to complete at least one daily per day during the IC event. Died a fair bit doing it because I just said "eff strategy and PVP prep, I'm sprinting around instead", but hey, I dust off and try again, and it didn't take too long. Heck, the Arena Daily can even be completed from the safety of your respawn platform if you are patient.

You die, you respawn, you try again or you try something else and you'll get your event tickets eventually. Its only human to get frustrated at repeated deaths, but with so many options enemy players can't really stop you from getting your tickets unless you give up completely.

So much truth in this.

During the Imperial City event, I brought a lot of my lowbie PvE geared alts in to do the dailies. All you have to do is get all six dailies in your quest log before you ever set foot in the Districts. Then run to complete the PvE objectives, knowing that you're going to eat a few deaths along the way.

It doesn't hurt, you don't lose experience, your gear doesn't get damaged if you are killed by players. In fact, sometimes it's a blessing in disguise, because it is the fastest way back to base to claim your rewards. And even in cases like this upcoming event where you'll need to get credit for a boss kill, you can often get some ranged hits on a boss if it's being fought near one of your safe platforms. Then once it dies and is outlined in yellow, just jump down and run up to it spamming whatever autoloot button your gaming platform uses. Or just sneak around looking for a boss fight and engage it from maximum range.... most players will be focused on the boss and trying to stay alive and will not likely notice you plinking from far away.

thegreatme

VaranisArano wrote: »

Which, come to think about it, is just like both PVP events. You've got loads of options for the event tickets in Cyrodiil - between scouting quests and five towns worth of quests, nobody can roadblock you.

I honestly can't tell if you're arguing against me or agreeing with me XD

What I was saying is making the event rewards strictly PvP/battle-based, as in activities where you have to defeat other players in something, would make these events wildly unfair to PvE players, and is not comparable to being minorly inconvenienced as a PvPer to do something like a World Boss, Delve, or even Dungeon daily (dungeons like nFG1 or nElden Hollow are much easier to clear solo than trying to finish player-fight-focused dailies in Cyro or IC by a longshot).

Because otherwise you're comparing PvE events which are "mildly annoying to complete" with "an activity where other players can purposely target and grief you strictly because you prefer PvE but this event forced you into a PvP zone".

Mild annoyance at an events' easily clearable design and deliberate & malicious griefing by other players aren't comparable at all.

The dailies they have now that allow you an option to do either/or and pick your proverbial poison are totally fine. I'm not arguing against those.

Making the rewards strictly PvP-victory based and not giving that other PvE option/taking it away is the problem I'm talking about.

And unless ZoS can figure out a reliable way to offer the same rewards through PvP/player battles in a way that is balanced to allow PvEers to complete the objectives as well, fat chance they'll change how you obtain said rewards. That's what I was getting at, for clarification.

virtus753

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Is it not the case that:

• Only 12 people get drops per boss.
• You have to survive the fight AND its immediate aftermath to get your loot?

Ordinary PvP behavior could feel very grief-ish to farmers in that kind of scenario.

This is not the case, no.

Last IC event I helped kill a district boss, died in the middle of the fight to an enemy player, was rezzed after the battle was over, and still got to loot the boss. I could see the loot outline even from the death screen.

If I remember right, I’ve also rezzed at the district spawn point and been able to go back for loot from fights I’d died in the middle of.

VaranisArano

thegreatme wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Which, come to think about it, is just like both PVP events. You've got loads of options for the event tickets in Cyrodiil - between scouting quests and five towns worth of quests, nobody can roadblock you.

I honestly can't tell if you're arguing against me or agreeing with me XD

What I was saying is making the event rewards strictly PvP/battle-based, as in activities where you have to defeat other players in something, would make these events wildly unfair to PvE players, and is not comparable to being minorly inconvenienced as a PvPer to do something like a World Boss, Delve, or even Dungeon daily (dungeons like nFG1 or nElden Hollow are much easier to clear solo than trying to finish player-fight-focused dailies in Cyro or IC by a longshot).

Because otherwise you're comparing PvE events which are "mildly annoying to complete" with "an activity where other players can purposely target and grief you strictly because you prefer PvE but this event forced you into a PvP zone".

Mild annoyance at an events' easily clearable design and deliberate & malicious griefing by other players aren't comparable at all.

The dailies they have now that allow you an option to do either/or and pick your proverbial poison are totally fine. I'm not arguing against those.

Making the rewards strictly PvP-victory based and not giving that other PvE option/taking it away is the problem I'm talking about.

And unless ZoS can figure out a reliable way to offer the same rewards through PvP/player battles in a way that is balanced to allow PvEers to complete the objectives as well, fat chance they'll change how you obtain said rewards. That's what I was getting at, for clarification.

Okay, I guess I was confused about what you meant. ZOS has always offered (and should continue to offer) a wide range of options for how players could get Midyear Mayhem rewards, including town dailies and District dailies. Yet, many PVE players still complain about being roadblocked by "deliberate and malicious griefing" even with that myriad of options.

I was pointing out that the latter simply isn't true. If that wasn't what you were saying, cool.

thegreatme

VaranisArano wrote: »

Okay, I guess I was confused about what you meant. ZOS has always offered (and should continue to offer) a wide range of options for how players could get Midyear Mayhem rewards, including town dailies and District dailies. Yet, many PVE players still complain about being roadblocked by "deliberate and malicious griefing" even with that myriad of options.

I was pointing out that the latter simply isn't true. If that wasn't what you were saying, cool.

There are workarounds if you stick around long enough to figure them out or have someone tell you how, but regardless, player griefing in PvP is still a thing even with the different options, and it is done -- uniquely to PvP -- deliberately and maliciously towards PvE players specifically.

30 man PvP groups just hanging around base entrances making it impossible to pass (and in the worst cases breaking ZoS rules by bunnyhopping base platforms with gap closers, which as I understand is a bannable offense) is a big example of that. Luckily the last IC Event didn't suffer from this as much, but mostly it seems because of ZoS taking steps to prevent it with longer immunity auras going through doors.

Yes you can go up top, but there again, PvPers hang around quest and spawn areas of districts specifically looking to pick off PvEers as easy targets up above as well (as a matter of fact I find its better to stay below in the sewers bouncing around boss locations for farming purposes. I find Molag Bal is the only area that's a big risk down there).

And it is unique to PvP events because targeting PvE players (in Imperial City especially) specifically for the fact they are PvE players and easy pickings isn't the exception during MM or IC Event; its the norm.

Conversely, while theoretically you can be "blocked" from some events like Undaunted in the form of being kicked out of a group and made to re-queue or solo it (and I might also remind that for Undaunted, you can take a Delve quest instead of a dungeon quest, so there again alternate options), that's the exception to the majority.

Unless you're just an intolerable player with no sense of teamwork that no one can stand being around, then it might seem like the norm. But that just seems like a natural consequence to being a jerk and having no teamwork skills in a teamwork-driven activity, so its really not the fault of it being PvE specifically so much as your attitude as a person.

I've yet to meet a single PvEer who goes into a dungeon saying "Lol look at this PvPer, let's kick him out of the group just because we can cuz *** PvPers >:D It'll be fun!". As long as you can pull your weight and work together you shouldn't really run into problems.





But back to the point, let's say you took away the PvE options or PvE way of obtaining something, and you made it exclusive to PvP activities, like defeating other players, capturing a district giving you a reward, etc.

Already with PvE as an option as things are now, someone can kill you while you're trying to burn down a district boss, or swoop in and kill you while you're trying to capture a district, or while you go in to loot something a bomber sneaks in and takes out your whole party while they're stacked - potentially before you can even pick up your loot. With things as they are already, a team of 2-3 really good PvPers can wipe a full team of PvEers like they're basically nothing, and that's with having different options with a heavy PvE focus in IC and some areas of Cyro (Vlasterus, Bruma, etc).

So if you make the rewards all exclusive to PvP specifically (player kills, district captures, etc), then yes, other players can in fact completely block you from getting rewards by being more versed in PvP than you, and you can never 100% predict who you're up against, whereas a PvE boss has consistent levels and mechanics you can easily prepare for. That was the point I was making.

I'm all for more options (rewards from both PvE and PvP objectives)

What I'm not for is replacing one with the other entirely, going off of the logic "Its a PvP event so all rewards should be obtained through PvP activities only", because then it would create impassable roadblocks to a lot of players if they changed it to that kind of system exclusively.

I'm not complaining about the way things are now however, other than the fact drop rates really should be higher given the overall difficulty of a mixed PvE-PvP zone that favors people who are out to dominate and stop the progress of other players by design, with a matching cultural attitude of its regular playerbase to boot.

Waffennacht

Honestly, this year, ill farm some PvE'ers.
I want some seal clubbing videos

VaranisArano

thegreatme wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Okay, I guess I was confused about what you meant. ZOS has always offered (and should continue to offer) a wide range of options for how players could get Midyear Mayhem rewards, including town dailies and District dailies. Yet, many PVE players still complain about being roadblocked by "deliberate and malicious griefing" even with that myriad of options.

I was pointing out that the latter simply isn't true. If that wasn't what you were saying, cool.

There are workarounds if you stick around long enough to figure them out or have someone tell you how, but regardless, player griefing in PvP is still a thing even with the different options, and it is done -- uniquely to PvP -- deliberately and maliciously towards PvE players specifically.

30 man PvP groups just hanging around base entrances making it impossible to pass (and in the worst cases breaking ZoS rules by bunnyhopping base platforms with gap closers, which as I understand is a bannable offense) is a big example of that. Luckily the last IC Event didn't suffer from this as much, but mostly it seems because of ZoS taking steps to prevent it with longer immunity auras going through doors.

Yes you can go up top, but there again, PvPers hang around quest and spawn areas of districts specifically looking to pick off PvEers as easy targets up above as well (as a matter of fact I find its better to stay below in the sewers bouncing around boss locations for farming purposes. I find Molag Bal is the only area that's a big risk down there).

And it is unique to PvP events because targeting PvE players (in Imperial City especially) specifically for the fact they are PvE players and easy pickings isn't the exception during MM or IC Event; its the norm.

Conversely, while theoretically you can be "blocked" from some events like Undaunted in the form of being kicked out of a group and made to re-queue or solo it (and I might also remind that for Undaunted, you can take a Delve quest instead of a dungeon quest, so there again alternate options), that's the exception to the majority.

Unless you're just an intolerable player with no sense of teamwork that no one can stand being around, then it might seem like the norm. But that just seems like a natural consequence to being a jerk and having no teamwork skills in a teamwork-driven activity, so its really not the fault of it being PvE specifically so much as your attitude as a person.

I've yet to meet a single PvEer who goes into a dungeon saying "Lol look at this PvPer, let's kick him out of the group just because we can cuz *** PvPers >:D It'll be fun!". As long as you can pull your weight and work together you shouldn't really run into problems.





But back to the point, let's say you took away the PvE options or PvE way of obtaining something, and you made it exclusive to PvP activities, like defeating other players, capturing a district giving you a reward, etc.

Already with PvE as an option as things are now, someone can kill you while you're trying to burn down a district boss, or swoop in and kill you while you're trying to capture a district, or while you go in to loot something a bomber sneaks in and takes out your whole party while they're stacked - potentially before you can even pick up your loot. With things as they are already, a team of 2-3 really good PvPers can wipe a full team of PvEers like they're basically nothing, and that's with having different options with a heavy PvE focus in IC and some areas of Cyro (Vlasterus, Bruma, etc).

So if you make the rewards all exclusive to PvP specifically (player kills, district captures, etc), then yes, other players can in fact completely block you from getting rewards by being more versed in PvP than you, and you can never 100% predict who you're up against, whereas a PvE boss has consistent levels and mechanics you can easily prepare for. That was the point I was making.

I'm all for more options (rewards from both PvE and PvP objectives)

What I'm not for is replacing one with the other entirely, going off of the logic "Its a PvP event so all rewards should be obtained through PvP activities only", because then it would create impassable roadblocks to a lot of players if they changed it to that kind of system exclusively.

I'm not complaining about the way things are now however, other than the fact drop rates really should be higher given the overall difficulty of a mixed PvE-PvP zone that favors people who are out to dominate and stop the progress of other players by design, with a matching cultural attitude of its regular playerbase to boot.

I think we're arguing a bit at cross-purposes. While I am not and never have been advocating that event rewards should be restricted to purely killing players, I am not that sympathetic to players who want to avoid the all risk of PVP during an event about PVP In PvPvE zones. Neither am I sympathetic to PVPers who want PVE rewards while skipping the PVE Event content.

"But, but PVP is so much harder for poor PVEers!"
"But, but PVPers are so mean to the poor PVEers!"
"But, but PVEers aren't mean to PVPers!"

Let's say it a little louder for the people in the back: PVP isn't fair. PVP isn't fair even for experienced players. If you show up twice a year for Midyear Mayhem rewards, undergeared, underprepared, and with no more idea of how to play PVP than a brand new player knows how to do a DPS rotation with light attack weaving, it's not going to be a great experience. I understand that it sucks. I've been there as a former a PVE-only player who learned to PVP. It sucked. I died a lot trying to get the rewards I wanted. Learning to PVP took time and effort - not everyone wants to put in that time and effort.

What I never did was pretend that I was entitled to those rewards with no risk of PVP. I was going into a PvPvE zone during a PvPvE event where killing players is worth double AP or Tel Var, therefore PVP was going to happen to me, and it did.

Its PVP. The enemy is there to kill you and stop your progress. They can't completely stop your progress unless you give up, but the whole point of PVP is that there's a player enemy trying to stop you in the most effective way possible. That's not "the cultural attitude" so much as that's what PVP is. Players who expect PvPvE zones to let them la di la di da their way through quests or boss kills like its a safe PVE-only zone just because its an event and they feel entitled to all the rewards haven't really thought about what it means to play PVP.

LightYagami

I just can't tolerate those people sending hate message when they're killed in PvP zones.

They should have basic understanding about the design of the zones.

Just like when you play dungeons and trials, you should have expectations that NPCs may kill you.

thegreatme

VaranisArano wrote: »

I am not and never have been advocating that event rewards should be restricted to purely killing players, I am not that sympathetic to players who want to avoid the all risk of PVP during an event about PVP In PvPvE zones. Neither am I sympathetic to PVPers who want PVE rewards while skipping the PVE Event content.

Well then I wasn't arguing against you specifically, just the other people who have and did complain that its unfair rewards are not exclusive to PvP/player victory activities just because they don't like PvE and think it needs to be changed regardless of who can and can't complete it