Zos please elaborate on critical chance changes. Patch notes are very inconsistent.

Sanguinor2

As in the title: Please comment on the critical chance changes seeing as there are no clear standards in the patch notes.
In 6.2.2 for example Oblivions Foe 4 piece bonus is 657 critical chance.
In 6.2.0 however the crafted set Red Eagles Fury has 833 critical chance.
And to make it even more inconsistent the arena sets offer either weapon or spell critical at unchanged values but not the combined critical chance.
In the preview you said that weapon and spell critical chance stats will be combined, however it has not appeared in any patch notes and as demonstrated the set boni granting some form of critical chance are all different from one another.
This is the third PTS patch, some clarity on how these changes are gonna happen or even if they will happen at all during this PTS would be very much appreciated.

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Gilliam , @ZOS_BrianWheeler

muh

I'm very certain that 657 is going to be the new value next patch, they've basically said as much in 6.2 with their Minor/Major buff changes. They said that Major buffs will be 4x the value of 2-4pc set bonuses, Major Savagery/Prophecy has been changed to 12% and 3 * 219 (= 1% crit chance) is 657.

It's just frustrating that they're dragging this change throughout all of this PTS cycles it seems, devaluing the time spent to evaluate anything combat balance related on the PTS. Sure it'll be only a couple percent everyone will lose with that change, but it has implications for a lot of stuff.

It also begs the question if changes to 5pc bonuses with Stonethorn will be changed again as well. Primarily berserking warrior which was buffed by a stupid amount. Same for Thief, that's been nerfed to 1333, just to be nerfed to 1215 soon TM.

Some of the changes the last two or three patches have been quite infuriating...

Sanguinor2

As of now the 657 value from Oblivions Foe is the only critical chance value that is at this particular number. One of the new crafted sets for example that will come out next patch has the old 833 value but the new combined critical chance. Hence my confusion on what is actually going on with the critical chance changes.

zaria

Think of the poor Khajiit who got changed from crit chance to crit damage because some jealous theorycrafters who builds get nuked anyway with the buff nerfs.

YandereGirlfriend

Khajiits truly will become Z-tier as a race when these nerfs go through.

renne

muh wrote: »

Sure it'll be only a couple percent everyone will lose with that change, but it has implications for a lot of stuff.

If they're nerfing it across the board it's not just going to be a couple of percent.

karthrag_inak

Wow, this one is -really- excited to play this patch. /sarcasm.

Apox

im kinda curious about something else, i thought i read somewhere that wep/spell crit was getting rolled into one. it made me question what was going to happen to the sorc/nb passives if that happened since theyd be the same stat, so i checked pts, and they were still different. so i checked medusa set, a set with all spell crit on it, and it still gives 4 lines of spell crit

did i dream this up or did they actually say somewhere they were rolling the stats into one and just havent done it yet?

edit: i found it in the update 28 preview

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/546030/u28-combat-preview-developer-update/p1

As such, we have created a new combined stat for Critical Chance which is a combination of Spell and Weapon Crit. This means if you see an item that grants 106 Critical Chance, it’s giving you both Spell and Weapon Crit.

so is this just supposed to be only on some items or have they just not pushed this change through to pts yet?

Kurat

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Khajiits truly will become Z-tier as a race when these nerfs go through.

Argonian welcomes you to the club.

UntilValhalla13

Honestly, you probably won't get a response from anyone actually involved with the changes. They just kinda chuck stuff at the wall and see what sticks now. I don't think even they know what's going to happen.

muh

renne wrote: »

muh wrote: »

Sure it'll be only a couple percent everyone will lose with that change, but it has implications for a lot of stuff.

If they're nerfing it across the board it's not just going to be a couple of percent.

From what they said, they want to reduce the amount of crit you can get without building for it. I would assume that a crit related 5pc bonus could be considered building for it. So it wouldn't surprise me if the 5pc bonus of e.g. MS/Leviathan or Medusa will not be reduced. If you would have every 2-4pc you could have as Critical Chance you would lose 6.4% (6x 2-4pc, 2x 1pc monster sets). I can't think of any actively used set combination in a PvE environment that's bringin 8 crit bonuses...

To put that into perspective (PvE), on Mother's Sorrow you will lose 1.6% (assuming same 5pc), same on False God. You will lose nothing on Siroria. You will lose 0.8% on 1pc monster sets. Medusa is like the only set that comes to my mind right now that has 3x crit bonus as their 2-4pc, meaning a loss of 2.4% on that set.

So on average, I don't think you will lose more than 2.4% with that change. Can't stress it enough though, that is assuming that they won't nerf 5pc bonuses. They even buffed a few 5pc bonuses slightly last patch. It's just... that I don't think half of those small adjustments made sense for their SBE whatsoever and it makes me physically uncofmortable to think about them.

Let's just look at the mundus changes in Stonethorn. According to a Horns of the Reach development comment, the value of Mundus Stones is 1.85x the value of 2-4pc bonuses.

They changed Atronach/Serpent to 310 recovery from 238
310/1.85 = 167.57
238/1.85 = 128.65.
Currently a 2-4pc recovery bonus grants 129 recovery.
Which brings us back to Oblivion's Foe set that introducing the new crit value this time around.
In Stonethorn it was changed to 211 recovery, but only on that set. Which was just off entirely in every metric.

They changed Lover to 2744 from 2752.
2744/1.85 = 1483.24
2752/1.85 = 1487.57
Currently a 2-4pc penetration bonus grants 1487 penetration.

Half the changes they made with Stonethorn make no sense when you apply the rules they themselves communicated over the last couple years. It almost feels like something went really wrong somewhere.

Sanguinor2

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

Honestly, you probably won't get a response from anyone actually involved with the changes. They just kinda chuck stuff at the wall and see what sticks now. I don't think even they know what's going to happen.

Yeah Im pretty sure I wont get a response either but it was worth a try. 3 Weeks into pts we really should know if a big change is coming or not but I guess Zos disagrees. Why they show it in the preview but then dont bring it into actual patch notes is really beyond me, might aswell just have kept quiet.

Tannus15

I worry that their standards are all based around 1pc bonuses now, so if they decide to change a 1pc bonus they end up changing literally everything to match it.

JayKwellen

I'd like to know what's going on with minor prophecy and savagery.

The patch notes say that minor savagery and prophecy will be adjusted, but it also mentions them as separate abilities buffing their respective stat. But how can prophecy buff spell crit and savagery buff weapon crit when spell and weapon crit are now the same thing?

Sorcerers get prophecy, nightblades get savagery, so...are they still different buffs? Are NB's and sorcs just going to have minor buffs with different names that do the same thing now?

Does anyone have any idea what's going on? Any of you PC people with the PTS able to confirm what's happening?

ExistingRug61

JayKwellen wrote: »

I'd like to know what's going on with minor prophecy and savagery.

The patch notes say that minor savagery and prophecy will be adjusted, but it also mentions them as separate abilities buffing their respective stat. But how can prophecy buff spell crit and savagery buff weapon crit when spell and weapon crit are now the same thing?

Sorcerers get prophecy, nightblades get savagery, so...are they still different buffs? Are NB's and sorcs just going to have minor buffs with different names that do the same thing now?

Does anyone have any idea what's going on? Any of you PC people with the PTS able to confirm what's happening?

My understanding on the combining of crit is that the current status is this:
1) Spell and Weapon Critical still exist as separate stats. All existing sets, buff or other effects that add to one of these are still separate and still do so (so savagery is still only weapon crit, prophecy only spell crit).
2) They added a new stat bonus called critical chance, which adds to both spell and weapon critical stats. This is so far only present on the new or reworked sets (although with different values).

So currently we seem to be in a sort of in between where new things are following the combined idea but all the old stuff hasn't been updated. Even the simple things that like existing sets that add both spell and weapon crit still list these separately, and haven't been changed to be the new critical chance (even though this would be functionally identical). It looks like they want to go to the end goal of combining the two crits but the required changes to anything existing hasn't been done yet. I wouldn't be surprised if this happened in a future update, and likewise I wouldn't be surprised if the crit values on set bonuses changes as well as speculated earlier in this thread. But this hasn't happened as yet.

Its similar for penetration with the addition of the combined stat "Offensive Penetration" - only the new or reworked sets have this.

I am also on xbox but recently downloaded pts onto an old laptop to check some other things, and while I didn't check this specifically, I was doing other tests involving crit and I think I would have noticed if there was something vastly different to previous. (the thing I was testing involved high crit chance on a stam build, so used savagery, dagger passive from dual wield etc - end result was high weapon crit as expected but spell crit was still very low, which wouldn't have been the case if these were now combined critical chance)

renne

muh wrote: »

So on average, I don't think you will lose more than 2.4% with that change. Can't stress it enough though, that is assuming that they won't nerf 5pc bonuses. They even buffed a few 5pc bonuses slightly last patch. It's just... that I don't think half of those small adjustments made sense for their SBE whatsoever and it makes me physically uncofmortable to think about them.

Fair, but that's also only in terms of sets, they did say they're nerfing - sorry, I mean ~adjusting - ALL sources of crit including Thief, Precise and CP. So I think it'll add up to significantly more than just an average 2.4% otherwise why even bother? I expect to see 5 piece bonuses to be nerfed too.

I'm still baffled how they think nerfs like this "make it a better experience".

muh

renne wrote: »

muh wrote: »

So on average, I don't think you will lose more than 2.4% with that change. Can't stress it enough though, that is assuming that they won't nerf 5pc bonuses. They even buffed a few 5pc bonuses slightly last patch. It's just... that I don't think half of those small adjustments made sense for their SBE whatsoever and it makes me physically uncofmortable to think about them.

Fair, but that's also only in terms of sets, they did say they're nerfing - sorry, I mean ~adjusting - ALL sources of crit including Thief, Precise and CP. So I think it'll add up to significantly more than just an average 2.4% otherwise why even bother? I expect to see 5 piece bonuses to be nerfed too.

I'm still baffled how they think nerfs like this "make it a better experience".

Yes, of course. I was just going into the reduction on armour bonuses in that post.

My guess is that precise will land around 3.4/6.8% crit chance given that weapon traits fall in at around 1.125/2.25 times the value of 2-4pc bonuses.
Thief will be nerfed to 657 * 1.85 = 1215 , which will mean 1% less crit chance with seven divines.

If we continue to ignore the unknown fate of 5pc bonuses, we're looking at a total, maximum and unrealistic, reduction of critical strike chance you can gain passively of 11.8%.
That's 6x 2-4pc, 2x 1pc monster, 1% Thief, 6% CP, 0.4% from weapon traits. But we gain 2% from the changed Major Savagery/Prophecy.

There is just one more truly passive source that grants crit without specifically building for it that they haven't touched yet. And that is armour passives.
With seven medium pieces you get 10.5% crit, 1.5% per piece of armour. I wouldn't be surprised to see it being reduced to 1% (219 rating) per piece of medium armour. So another reduction of 3.5%
With 5+ light armour pieces you get 10% crit. Kind of expect it to get cut in half to 5% (1095).

Now to look at a more realistic reduction we would see with all of the changes mentioned above:
-6% from CP,
-2.4% from 2-4pc/monster sets,
-3.5/5% from armour passives,
-0.4% from weapon trait,
-1% from thief,
+2% from Major Savagery,
for a total, kind of realistic, reduction of 11.3% for stamina, 12.8% for magicka.

That is quite significant overall if you ask me. I could be entirely wrong though and the armour passive is just speculation on my part.

Soundinfinite

I originally wrote this for another post back on the initial 6.0 release of Markath 3 weeks ago.

I do fully agree that patch notes seem to be written in a way where they are not watching their own lingo. "Critical Chance" WAS a generic term for crit and now it is a STAT of it's own that means something specific but patch notes go back and forth using it as the term form or the stat form at random.

The CP changes to critical were written up as CRITICAL CHANCE but on PTS are still Spell/Weapon Critical which now makes a difference as explained below in original post. 657 should become the base crit value if they want a x2 and x4 system...also explained below.

The original post follows:


Just a note on this thread...though it's not in patch notes minor prophecy was buffed 1% to keep it in-line with the double and quadruple major/minor system...I have checked on my sorcerer and verified, so major proph added +2% and minor proph added +1%... For a 3% overall gain from the two.

What is interesting is these values are not exactly double or quadruple an item stat of crit. 833 critical is equal to roughly 3.8% crit chance while minor is 6% and major 12%. Makes me wonder if crit is going to be nerfed game wide to around 657 critical per stat which is equal to 3% crit chance thus making the system balance out to what they want.

Zos has not yet done passes on old item sets for Crit changes which may come this pts cycle or next cycle as they already stated they would continue working on crit through patch 1 of next year.

Also, I'm interested in the wording used in patch notes...it says that the CP system is now 3% crit chance and 3% crit chance....Critical Chance is a NEW STAT that incorporates BOTH spell/weapon critical...which then in patch notes would only be a 3% nerf as you could get 3% from each tree for a total of 6% crit chance....you just have to make sure to spread your CP to do so.

However, on PTS it is still Spell Critical and Weapon Critical in the CP trees like it has always been. Making it a 6% (66%) nerf or honestly 75% nerf since the same passive used to give 12% spell/weapon crit.

Were the patch notes lingo incorrect and not paying attention to CRIT CHANCE being a stat of its own now that means something different from spell/weapon critical or will the CP trees be updated in the future to reflect this Chance over individual spell/weapon stats?

Ascarl

Kurat wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Khajiits truly will become Z-tier as a race when these nerfs go through.

Argonian welcomes you to the club.

Argonian is stilll considered BiS for PVP sustain builds.