Nerfing crit rate when Malacath already outperforms crit builds is ridiculous.

Langeston

AgentUriel wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

AgentUriel wrote: »

I get the complaints about malacath but...

Didn't impen trait on armor get nerfed by about 40%? Doesn't that mean that crit builds just do more damage now without being directly buffed?

Why isn't there any mention about that?

Everyone got free innate 1350 impen, so many ppl got more impen these days then before.

Dude I can't remember that far back but ppl having innate crit resist isn't anything new...

Your observation seems rather pointless. Also from my friends that PvP more than me they prefer to get their crit resist up to 3k. You can't do that in no cp. Crit is still viable (indirectly buffed).

You can't remember back before Greymoor? Yes, the base crit resistance is relatively new.

The max crit resistance you used to get with just 7 impen in no CP was 1813. Now, you get 2239. So contrary to what a lot of people say, crit resistance wasn't nerfed, it was buffed by roughly 23%. The impen trait itself does do less, but with the base crit resistance, at the end of the day you have more protection now with 7 impen than you did before Greymoor.

You lose crit rate & crit damage in no CP too, not just crit resistance. Now that people with zero impen on at all get the equivalent of 5 pieces of [pre-Greymoor] impen for free, no matter how you look at it, crits now do less damage, not more. So I don't think his observation was "pointless," he was correcting the misinformation in your post.

Merforum

Langeston wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Well it is about time they addressed all the FREE damage the crit stackers have been getting. In PVP, I hear all the time the problem with Proc sets is it is Free damage but crit damage is very much worse and these seem like good changes.

I think they are right about PVE too because many min/maxers just stack crit bonus gear to maximize DPS and it is pretty boring. I don't know what their spreadsheet says but normal damage should be increased overall and crit damage should be capped at like 50% above normal. I don't think they envisioned having crit damage being 2-4 times normal damage.

Crit damage is not "free." In order to have a viable crit build, especially in no CP, you have to give up a good bit of raw stats like stamina/health/magicka, sustain, weapon/spell damage, penetration, and/or mitigation. With proc sets you give up much less because you don't have to build into crit rate and crit damage. (This is especially true on stamina builds, as stam proc sets are just out of control.)

No amount of crit rate/damage compares to firing off one ability that also sets off multiple procs (for instance Poison Injection proccing Sheer Venom (9k), Syvarra's Scales (10k+) and Venomous Smite (22k+). Building for crit is quite a balancing act and for the most part a frustrating, thankless process.

Crit damage has been insanely high for a long time to the point where it made PVP totally insufferable for newbies. And PVE DPS is very boring for build/rotations. I have been testing some of these proc sets and sheer venom for instance is ALWAYS less DPS than light attack (even when like me your LA weaving is about 75%). So light attack does MORE Free damage than sheer venom and doesn't have a cooldown.

Also look at any 80-90K 'dummy parse' the crit damage is 3 to 4 TIMES the normal damage. If you call proc damage FREE then crit damage is also FREE obviously. I don't like the term actually, just trying to highlight how silly this argument is. I've been playing BG 10 times daily for several weeks and actually find it much more fun that very few people can instantly kill others. It's more fun than the stat/dmg/crit stacking meta that is just boring. Hopefully the Devs continue on this path.

Firstmep

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Well it is about time they addressed all the FREE damage the crit stackers have been getting. In PVP, I hear all the time the problem with Proc sets is it is Free damage but crit damage is very much worse and these seem like good changes.

I think they are right about PVE too because many min/maxers just stack crit bonus gear to maximize DPS and it is pretty boring. I don't know what their spreadsheet says but normal damage should be increased overall and crit damage should be capped at like 50% above normal. I don't think they envisioned having crit damage being 2-4 times normal damage.

Crit damage is not "free." In order to have a viable crit build, especially in no CP, you have to give up a good bit of raw stats like stamina/health/magicka, sustain, weapon/spell damage, penetration, and/or mitigation. With proc sets you give up much less because you don't have to build into crit rate and crit damage. (This is especially true on stamina builds, as stam proc sets are just out of control.)

No amount of crit rate/damage compares to firing off one ability that also sets off multiple procs (for instance Poison Injection proccing Sheer Venom (9k), Syvarra's Scales (10k+) and Venomous Smite (22k+). Building for crit is quite a balancing act and for the most part a frustrating, thankless process.

Crit damage has been insanely high for a long time to the point where it made PVP totally insufferable for newbies. And PVE DPS is very boring for build/rotations. I have been testing some of these proc sets and sheer venom for instance is ALWAYS less DPS than light attack (even when like me your LA weaving is about 75%). So light attack does MORE Free damage than sheer venom and doesn't have a cooldown.

Also look at any 80-90K 'dummy parse' the crit damage is 3 to 4 TIMES the normal damage. If you call proc damage FREE then crit damage is also FREE obviously. I don't like the term actually, just trying to highlight how silly this argument is. I've been playing BG 10 times daily for several weeks and actually find it much more fun that very few people can instantly kill others. It's more fun than the stat/dmg/crit stacking meta that is just boring. Hopefully the Devs continue on this path.

Those newbs still get slaughtered by procsets and mala users nothing has changed.
Just another example of zeni balancing around the lowest common denominator and not actually reaching their goal.
They don't seem to grasp that it doesn't matter what they do, a lot of people play pvp and pve seriously, constantly nerfing high end players is pointless as we will always find the most broken stuff to abuse.
This game needs a mentoring system for players that want to get into endgame, not Zos trying to give them 50k dps for light attacking once on a bow.

Fawn4287

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Well it is about time they addressed all the FREE damage the crit stackers have been getting. In PVP, I hear all the time the problem with Proc sets is it is Free damage but crit damage is very much worse and these seem like good changes.

I think they are right about PVE too because many min/maxers just stack crit bonus gear to maximize DPS and it is pretty boring. I don't know what their spreadsheet says but normal damage should be increased overall and crit damage should be capped at like 50% above normal. I don't think they envisioned having crit damage being 2-4 times normal damage.

Crit damage is not "free." In order to have a viable crit build, especially in no CP, you have to give up a good bit of raw stats like stamina/health/magicka, sustain, weapon/spell damage, penetration, and/or mitigation. With proc sets you give up much less because you don't have to build into crit rate and crit damage. (This is especially true on stamina builds, as stam proc sets are just out of control.)

No amount of crit rate/damage compares to firing off one ability that also sets off multiple procs (for instance Poison Injection proccing Sheer Venom (9k), Syvarra's Scales (10k+) and Venomous Smite (22k+). Building for crit is quite a balancing act and for the most part a frustrating, thankless process.

Crit damage has been insanely high for a long time to the point where it made PVP totally insufferable for newbies. And PVE DPS is very boring for build/rotations. I have been testing some of these proc sets and sheer venom for instance is ALWAYS less DPS than light attack (even when like me your LA weaving is about 75%). So light attack does MORE Free damage than sheer venom and doesn't have a cooldown.

Also look at any 80-90K 'dummy parse' the crit damage is 3 to 4 TIMES the normal damage. If you call proc damage FREE then crit damage is also FREE obviously. I don't like the term actually, just trying to highlight how silly this argument is. I've been playing BG 10 times daily for several weeks and actually find it much more fun that very few people can instantly kill others. It's more fun than the stat/dmg/crit stacking meta that is just boring. Hopefully the Devs continue on this path.

So sets killing people instead of skills and combos is what you consider fun? I find that it the mediocre CP players who are in low MMR BG matches slaying out non meta players are proc meta lovers until they come up against a cheesier player themselves. The fact that magplars, stamplars and magblades (3/4 crit buffed PvP classes) who can all hit over 50% crit are using malacaths you know that even a 50% of hitting a crit is still inferior to a flat 25% damage.

Canned_Apples

It was done to get more people to buy the expansion.

Merforum

Firstmep wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Well it is about time they addressed all the FREE damage the crit stackers have been getting. In PVP, I hear all the time the problem with Proc sets is it is Free damage but crit damage is very much worse and these seem like good changes.

I think they are right about PVE too because many min/maxers just stack crit bonus gear to maximize DPS and it is pretty boring. I don't know what their spreadsheet says but normal damage should be increased overall and crit damage should be capped at like 50% above normal. I don't think they envisioned having crit damage being 2-4 times normal damage.

Crit damage is not "free." In order to have a viable crit build, especially in no CP, you have to give up a good bit of raw stats like stamina/health/magicka, sustain, weapon/spell damage, penetration, and/or mitigation. With proc sets you give up much less because you don't have to build into crit rate and crit damage. (This is especially true on stamina builds, as stam proc sets are just out of control.)

No amount of crit rate/damage compares to firing off one ability that also sets off multiple procs (for instance Poison Injection proccing Sheer Venom (9k), Syvarra's Scales (10k+) and Venomous Smite (22k+). Building for crit is quite a balancing act and for the most part a frustrating, thankless process.

Crit damage has been insanely high for a long time to the point where it made PVP totally insufferable for newbies. And PVE DPS is very boring for build/rotations. I have been testing some of these proc sets and sheer venom for instance is ALWAYS less DPS than light attack (even when like me your LA weaving is about 75%). So light attack does MORE Free damage than sheer venom and doesn't have a cooldown.

Also look at any 80-90K 'dummy parse' the crit damage is 3 to 4 TIMES the normal damage. If you call proc damage FREE then crit damage is also FREE obviously. I don't like the term actually, just trying to highlight how silly this argument is. I've been playing BG 10 times daily for several weeks and actually find it much more fun that very few people can instantly kill others. It's more fun than the stat/dmg/crit stacking meta that is just boring. Hopefully the Devs continue on this path.

Those newbs still get slaughtered by procsets and mala users nothing has changed.
Just another example of zeni balancing around the lowest common denominator and not actually reaching their goal.
They don't seem to grasp that it doesn't matter what they do, a lot of people play pvp and pve seriously, constantly nerfing high end players is pointless as we will always find the most broken stuff to abuse.
This game needs a mentoring system for players that want to get into endgame, not Zos trying to give them 50k dps for light attacking once on a bow.

Well I have been doing more testing and Caluurian and Sheer Venom are NOT that high in damage output, certainly not OP. I am testing some sets that work even better than both of those. I'll keep them to myself so there aren't 50 threads whining about them.

BTW I tested with and without Malacath and it is definitely NOT OP at all, especially Caluu which give crit chance and requires crit to proc. I agree with you the light attack can be toned down, it shouldn't be much higher than skills.

But I'll disagree that the Proc sets are not at all as bad as some people are saying. 'High end' players will use whichever sets they think are best. But I don't think 'high end' players are the ones that spend lots of time ganking people in IC/Cyro. People who do that a lot are low to mid level players who think they're good, until people who they think are worse kills them.

Alchimiste1

@Merforum try converting the damage you get from sheer venom into weapon damage and then convince us sheer venom isnt over performing

Merforum

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Merforum try converting the damage you get from sheer venom into weapon damage and then convince us sheer venom isnt over performing

Stat/Damage/Crit builds are so boring but still can outperform most other builds. Proc sets are not OP at all, at most they add a little extra pressure to the 1vXers, which is a good thing. But like I said there are sets I'm testing that give much more damage than caluu, sheer venom consistently.

And as I said you don't use malacath with caluu because proc requires crit, plus 2 bonuses are crit, those together is a waste. A LA plus poison inject does more damage than poison inject with sheer venom so a 'Good player' who can do LA weave should outperform any newbie who can't do that yet. And keep in mind LA can be done every second (actually less than an second with weaving), but Procs all have cooldowns.

Jman100582

Cool suggestion ive seen some users say: malacath should only buff attacks that can already crit to begin with. The whole point of the mythic is to buff your damage, but at the sacrifice of crit damage. You can't get something for nothing sort of deal. So...why does it buff procs when they can't crit to begin with? You don't really "sacrifice" anything running it this way, which is the whole theme of the mythic

relentless_turnip

Merforum wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Merforum try converting the damage you get from sheer venom into weapon damage and then convince us sheer venom isnt over performing

Stat/Damage/Crit builds are so boring but still can outperform most other builds. Proc sets are not OP at all, at most they add a little extra pressure to the 1vXers, which is a good thing. But like I said there are sets I'm testing that give much more damage than caluu, sheer venom consistently.

And as I said you don't use malacath with caluu because proc requires crit, plus 2 bonuses are crit, those together is a waste. A LA plus poison inject does more damage than poison inject with sheer venom so a 'Good player' who can do LA weave should outperform any newbie who can't do that yet. And keep in mind LA can be done every second (actually less than an second with weaving), but Procs all have cooldowns.

You are talking absolute nonsense... Which considering your usual comments at least you remain consistent 👍

Sheer venom doesn't have a cooldown btw...

Tolino

Merforum wrote: »

Stat/Damage/Crit builds are so boring but still can outperform most other builds. Proc sets are not OP at all, at most they add a little extra pressure to the 1vXers, which is a good thing. But like I said there are sets I'm testing that give much more damage than caluu, sheer venom consistently.

And as I said you don't use malacath with caluu because proc requires crit, plus 2 bonuses are crit, those together is a waste. A LA plus poison inject does more damage than poison inject with sheer venom so a 'Good player' who can do LA weave should outperform any newbie who can't do that yet. And keep in mind LA can be done every second (actually less than an second with weaving), but Procs all have cooldowns.

And you can't use a LA whit Sheer Venom?

Pls stop whit this nonsense

sentientomega

I craft all my own sets, so every character of mine has 100% crafted sets.

Zenimax might consider altering the set bonus order of some sets with crit, especially more than one set piece bonus as crit, so that the first and second value of every critical chance-featured set have the critical chance values. It's hard enough trying to be a heavy armour solo build and keep hitting 50% chance without totally gimping yourself. That 50% is a must-have, especially for for using Surge.

Muskrap

Solariken wrote: »

Yeah instead of being unable to crit they should change Malacath to reduce crit damage by 50%.

Snow Treaders need a similar change, instead of being unable to sprint it should just increase sprint cost by 200% or something.

Snow Treaders are already very powerful. They don't need a buff

ajkb78

How about just changing heavy armour so that for each piece of heavy armour worn you suffer a percentage decrease to damage done to other players? That might be the only thing that would limit the effectiveness of heavy armour proc set tank builds in PVP.