Nerfing crit rate when Malacath already outperforms crit builds is ridiculous.

Langeston

This post refers specifically to no CP PVP

Even as a magblade it's often difficult to justify building for crit in no CP anymore, and on most other classes, it's completely pointless — Malacath is just that strong. So what does ZOS do? Nerf crit rate even more! I just don't understand the logic. BGs are already ruined with this proc garbage, now ZOS is going to make it even harder on the people trying to make stat based builds work? Oh, and unless this change is accompanied by a rework of Khajiit, that race is DOA. So stock up on race change tokens I guess.

When I got this game, everyone talked about how great the PVP was — no one is saying that anymore.

[edit] Addendum from a later post:

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the ones already made and the ones that are forthcoming.


Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Firstmep

Langeston wrote: »

This post refers specifically to no CP PVP

Even as a magblade it's often difficult to justify building for crit in no CP anymore, and on most other classes, it's completely pointless — Malacath is just that strong. So what does ZOS do? Nerf crit rate even more! I just don't understand the logic. BGs are already ruined with this proc garbage, now ZOS is going to make it even harder on the people trying to make stat based builds work? Oh, and unless this change is accompanied by a rework of Khajiit, that race is DOA. So stock up on race change tokens I guess.

When I got this game, everyone talked about how great the PVP was — no one is saying that anymore.

Well it's a buff for no cp (2% more from prophecy/savagery), but I agree that crit builds are not on the same level as malacath.
Between crit resist and the fact that you can build to be tanky with malacath, there's just no contest.
I've made the suggestion to allow sources of crit damage to affect critical healing at 50% value, that would actually be a nice little extra for magblades too.

Langeston

Firstmep wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

This post refers specifically to no CP PVP

Even as a magblade it's often difficult to justify building for crit in no CP anymore, and on most other classes, it's completely pointless — Malacath is just that strong. So what does ZOS do? Nerf crit rate even more! I just don't understand the logic. BGs are already ruined with this proc garbage, now ZOS is going to make it even harder on the people trying to make stat based builds work? Oh, and unless this change is accompanied by a rework of Khajiit, that race is DOA. So stock up on race change tokens I guess.

When I got this game, everyone talked about how great the PVP was — no one is saying that anymore.

Well it's a buff for no cp (2% more from prophecy/savagery), but I agree that crit builds are not on the same level as malacath.
Between crit resist and the fact that you can build to be tanky with malacath, there's just no contest.
I've made the suggestion to allow sources of crit damage to affect critical healing at 50% value, that would actually be a nice little extra for magblades too.

For now it might be, but my understanding is that there is going to be further nerfs to crit rate. I guess I wasn't clear about that.

Solariken

Yeah instead of being unable to crit they should change Malacath to reduce crit damage by 50%.

Snow Treaders need a similar change, instead of being unable to sprint it should just increase sprint cost by 200% or something.

Langeston

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Firstmep

Langeston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

We are already at the point where malacath is worth it for medium/light armor builds for most classes, especially with procsets in mind.
When they started buffing crit sets like briar an acuity i saw a ray of hope that they would make them a worthy alternative for procs.
Sadly that never happened.
I've already pointed this out, but crit chance is not a great Stat to build for in pvp, vs it being one of the best stats for pve.
I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to push procsets in Pve as well, as a way to raise the floor.
News flash to the devs, procsets are already used in Pve just not necesseraly the same ones as in pvp.

olsborg

I agree very much with this topic. Malacath is already so strong, much better then building for crit atm. Nerfing crit chance etc will just empower something already very strong(malacath) to ridiculous levels

Merforum

Langeston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Well it is about time they addressed all the FREE damage the crit stackers have been getting. In PVP, I hear all the time the problem with Proc sets is it is Free damage but crit damage is very much worse and these seem like good changes.

I think they are right about PVE too because many min/maxers just stack crit bonus gear to maximize DPS and it is pretty boring. I don't know what their spreadsheet says but normal damage should be increased overall and crit damage should be capped at like 50% above normal. I don't think they envisioned having crit damage being 2-4 times normal damage.

Firstmep

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Well it is about time they addressed all the FREE damage the crit stackers have been getting. In PVP, I hear all the time the problem with Proc sets is it is Free damage but crit damage is very much worse and these seem like good changes.

I think they are right about PVE too because many min/maxers just stack crit bonus gear to maximize DPS and it is pretty boring. I don't know what their spreadsheet says but normal damage should be increased overall and crit damage should be capped at like 50% above normal. I don't think they envisioned having crit damage being 2-4 times normal damage.

Crit damage worse than procsets? I dont know if you are being sarcastic, man.

In no cp procsets provide more damage than any stat based build can give you.

Caluurion can hit for 6-8k depending on target. No amount of stat fiddling will give you this much damage.

The same goes for dot sets, Sheer Venom gives your poison inject more dmg than having another 2k+ weapon damage in your build.

Crit builds, outside of ganking, dont come nowhere near procs. There is a reason why most people are running malacath.

relentless_turnip

Firstmep wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Well it is about time they addressed all the FREE damage the crit stackers have been getting. In PVP, I hear all the time the problem with Proc sets is it is Free damage but crit damage is very much worse and these seem like good changes.

I think they are right about PVE too because many min/maxers just stack crit bonus gear to maximize DPS and it is pretty boring. I don't know what their spreadsheet says but normal damage should be increased overall and crit damage should be capped at like 50% above normal. I don't think they envisioned having crit damage being 2-4 times normal damage.

Crit damage worse than procsets? I dont know if you are being sarcastic, man.

In no cp procsets provide more damage than any stat based build can give you.

Caluurion can hit for 6-8k depending on target. No amount of stat fiddling will give you this much damage.

The same goes for dot sets, Sheer Venom gives your poison inject more dmg than having another 2k+ weapon damage in your build.

Crit builds, outside of ganking, dont come nowhere near procs. There is a reason why most people are running malacath.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to this guy. He commented the other week that light attacks are free damage and animation cancelling is an exploit... He is one of those people.

He doesn't seem to the understand the difference between having to do something and having to do nothing...

Langeston

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Well it is about time they addressed all the FREE damage the crit stackers have been getting. In PVP, I hear all the time the problem with Proc sets is it is Free damage but crit damage is very much worse and these seem like good changes.

I think they are right about PVE too because many min/maxers just stack crit bonus gear to maximize DPS and it is pretty boring. I don't know what their spreadsheet says but normal damage should be increased overall and crit damage should be capped at like 50% above normal. I don't think they envisioned having crit damage being 2-4 times normal damage.

Crit damage is not "free." In order to have a viable crit build, especially in no CP, you have to give up a good bit of raw stats like stamina/health/magicka, sustain, weapon/spell damage, penetration, and/or mitigation. With proc sets you give up much less because you don't have to build into crit rate and crit damage. (This is especially true on stamina builds, as stam proc sets are just out of control.)

No amount of crit rate/damage compares to firing off one ability that also sets off multiple procs (for instance Poison Injection proccing Sheer Venom (9k), Syvarra's Scales (10k+) and Venomous Smite (22k+). Building for crit is quite a balancing act and for the most part a frustrating, thankless process.

Waffennacht

Langeston wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Well it is about time they addressed all the FREE damage the crit stackers have been getting. In PVP, I hear all the time the problem with Proc sets is it is Free damage but crit damage is very much worse and these seem like good changes.

I think they are right about PVE too because many min/maxers just stack crit bonus gear to maximize DPS and it is pretty boring. I don't know what their spreadsheet says but normal damage should be increased overall and crit damage should be capped at like 50% above normal. I don't think they envisioned having crit damage being 2-4 times normal damage.

Crit damage is not "free." In order to have a viable crit build, especially in no CP, you have to give up a good bit of raw stats like stamina/health/magicka, sustain, weapon/spell damage, penetration, and/or mitigation. With proc sets you give up much less because you don't have to build into crit rate and crit damage. (This is especially true on stamina builds, as stam proc sets are just out of control.)

No amount of crit rate/damage compares to firing off one ability that also sets off multiple procs (for instance Poison Injection proccing Sheer Venom (9k), Syvarra's Scales (10k+) and Venomous Smite (22k+). Building for crit is quite a balancing act and for the most part a frustrating, thankless process.

Its a thankless process that NBs will simply be better at.

The crit build is way more niche than proc. Literally any and all classes can use proc efficiently; only NBs can build focused on crit (in PvP; again more so without CP as you cant close the gap in crit modifiers)

Comparing crit build to Malacath is hard IMO (no CP). Both increase damage, while one buffs those builds that never paid into crit chance (practically every non medium armor build) the more you pay into crit modifiers the more a ganker you seem to become (a playstyle that not everyone enjoys)

Malacath is necessary to make the Mag Procs (aside from Cal) viable.

Malacath is in a hard spot. Make it not effect procs it becomes a really valueless item.

Firstmep

Waffennacht wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Well it is about time they addressed all the FREE damage the crit stackers have been getting. In PVP, I hear all the time the problem with Proc sets is it is Free damage but crit damage is very much worse and these seem like good changes.

I think they are right about PVE too because many min/maxers just stack crit bonus gear to maximize DPS and it is pretty boring. I don't know what their spreadsheet says but normal damage should be increased overall and crit damage should be capped at like 50% above normal. I don't think they envisioned having crit damage being 2-4 times normal damage.

Crit damage is not "free." In order to have a viable crit build, especially in no CP, you have to give up a good bit of raw stats like stamina/health/magicka, sustain, weapon/spell damage, penetration, and/or mitigation. With proc sets you give up much less because you don't have to build into crit rate and crit damage. (This is especially true on stamina builds, as stam proc sets are just out of control.)

No amount of crit rate/damage compares to firing off one ability that also sets off multiple procs (for instance Poison Injection proccing Sheer Venom (9k), Syvarra's Scales (10k+) and Venomous Smite (22k+). Building for crit is quite a balancing act and for the most part a frustrating, thankless process.

Its a thankless process that NBs will simply be better at.

The crit build is way more niche than proc. Literally any and all classes can use proc efficiently; only NBs can build focused on crit (in PvP; again more so without CP as you cant close the gap in crit modifiers)

Comparing crit build to Malacath is hard IMO (no CP). Both increase damage, while one buffs those builds that never paid into crit chance (practically every non medium armor build) the more you pay into crit modifiers the more a ganker you seem to become (a playstyle that not everyone enjoys)

Malacath is necessary to make the Mag Procs (aside from Cal) viable.

Malacath is in a hard spot. Make it not effect procs it becomes a really valueless item.

40k hp stamdens rocking EV,Endurance and Malubeth would disaggree with that last statement.

MincVinyl

As a whole I think the crit reduction is good for the game. It is a correct direction. Stats for a long time have been too inflated with little meaning. Just from poor dev decisions over the years piling on top of each other. I mean on a normal 2h heavy armor stamsorc build I could be happily sitting at 35-40% crit

However, proc sets are an issue. Mainly due to how inflated stats are, it is so easy to reach the necessary thresholds needed to be relevant and run only proc sets. Even in nocp you can still manage to have enough stats while running all proc sets and still be as relevant as some stat builds.

---

We can only hope that the next big rework they are trying to hype up is the cp system. Maybe we can dream of a cp that we can put in to reduce proc damage by X amount.

Waffennacht

Firstmep wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Well it is about time they addressed all the FREE damage the crit stackers have been getting. In PVP, I hear all the time the problem with Proc sets is it is Free damage but crit damage is very much worse and these seem like good changes.

I think they are right about PVE too because many min/maxers just stack crit bonus gear to maximize DPS and it is pretty boring. I don't know what their spreadsheet says but normal damage should be increased overall and crit damage should be capped at like 50% above normal. I don't think they envisioned having crit damage being 2-4 times normal damage.

Crit damage is not "free." In order to have a viable crit build, especially in no CP, you have to give up a good bit of raw stats like stamina/health/magicka, sustain, weapon/spell damage, penetration, and/or mitigation. With proc sets you give up much less because you don't have to build into crit rate and crit damage. (This is especially true on stamina builds, as stam proc sets are just out of control.)

No amount of crit rate/damage compares to firing off one ability that also sets off multiple procs (for instance Poison Injection proccing Sheer Venom (9k), Syvarra's Scales (10k+) and Venomous Smite (22k+). Building for crit is quite a balancing act and for the most part a frustrating, thankless process.

Its a thankless process that NBs will simply be better at.

The crit build is way more niche than proc. Literally any and all classes can use proc efficiently; only NBs can build focused on crit (in PvP; again more so without CP as you cant close the gap in crit modifiers)

Comparing crit build to Malacath is hard IMO (no CP). Both increase damage, while one buffs those builds that never paid into crit chance (practically every non medium armor build) the more you pay into crit modifiers the more a ganker you seem to become (a playstyle that not everyone enjoys)

Malacath is necessary to make the Mag Procs (aside from Cal) viable.

Malacath is in a hard spot. Make it not effect procs it becomes a really valueless item.

40k hp stamdens rocking EV,Endurance and Malubeth would disaggree with that last statement.

I dont get how this build would be any better than a 60k HP Thews Proc build Tbf. Seems like a watered down version. Why even go with non proc damage if you're doing 40k?

Ooooorrr maybe you're not talking about no CP? In which case, we arent on the same topic, im all about no CP BGs

Ascarl

While I generally like the direction of the recent game changes, I don t understand this one. In contrast to Malacath there have been few complaints about crit. Now stam Orc w/ Malacath seems to be the meta even more than before.
I try to get as many AP with my Khajit main for now and when this patch kicks in, I guess I will concentrate in solo PVE for a while.

Langeston

Waffennacht wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Well it is about time they addressed all the FREE damage the crit stackers have been getting. In PVP, I hear all the time the problem with Proc sets is it is Free damage but crit damage is very much worse and these seem like good changes.

I think they are right about PVE too because many min/maxers just stack crit bonus gear to maximize DPS and it is pretty boring. I don't know what their spreadsheet says but normal damage should be increased overall and crit damage should be capped at like 50% above normal. I don't think they envisioned having crit damage being 2-4 times normal damage.

Crit damage is not "free." In order to have a viable crit build, especially in no CP, you have to give up a good bit of raw stats like stamina/health/magicka, sustain, weapon/spell damage, penetration, and/or mitigation. With proc sets you give up much less because you don't have to build into crit rate and crit damage. (This is especially true on stamina builds, as stam proc sets are just out of control.)

No amount of crit rate/damage compares to firing off one ability that also sets off multiple procs (for instance Poison Injection proccing Sheer Venom (9k), Syvarra's Scales (10k+) and Venomous Smite (22k+). Building for crit is quite a balancing act and for the most part a frustrating, thankless process.

Its a thankless process that NBs will simply be better at.

I don't disagree, but that's irrelevant if top tier crit builds cant hold a candle to run of the mill proc builds.

The crit build is way more niche than proc. Literally any and all classes can use proc efficiently; only NBs can build focused on crit (in PvP; again more so without CP as you cant close the gap in crit modifiers)

Templars can build into crit well too. In any case, classes that are unable to build into crit as well more than make up for it in other areas. If the outlook was as bleak for other classes as you [seem to] imply, you'd see a lot more magblades in high MMR BGs & not nearly as many stamDKs.

Comparing crit build to Malacath is hard IMO (no CP). Both increase damage, while one buffs those builds that never paid into crit chance (practically every non medium armor build) the more you pay into crit modifiers the more a ganker you seem to become (a playstyle that not everyone enjoys)

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you seem to be making the same point that I am here.

Malacath is necessary to make the Mag Procs (aside from Cal) viable.

Why? In any case, [relative to stam proc sets,] I don't consider many mag proc sets to be particularly viable even with Malacath.

Malacath is in a hard spot. Make it not effect procs it becomes a really valueless item.

How is Malacath in a hard spot if nearly every decent BG build is using it? Tanky heavy armor builds with 30k+ health shouldn't be able to do the same amount of damage as light/medium armor builds with 20k health.

MincVinyl wrote: »

As a whole I think the crit reduction is good for the game. It is a correct direction. Stats for a long time have been too inflated with little meaning. Just from poor dev decisions over the years piling on top of each other. I mean on a normal 2h heavy armor stamsorc build I could be happily sitting at 35-40% crit

However, proc sets are an issue. Mainly due to how inflated stats are, it is so easy to reach the necessary thresholds needed to be relevant and run only proc sets. Even in nocp you can still manage to have enough stats while running all proc sets and still be as relevant as some stat builds.

---

We can only hope that the next big rework they are trying to hype up is the cp system. Maybe we can dream of a cp that we can put in to reduce proc damage by X amount.

You and I are kind of saying the same thing, we're just coming at the problem from different angles. If crit builds are the baseline (where you seem to be coming from) then Malacath needs nerfed. If you look at the majority of "meta" builds in BGs right now as the baseline, (where I'm coming from) then crit builds need some love. We both want parity.

In any case, I think we can both agree that keeping Malacath as is while nerfing crit builds is definitely the wrong direction.

Waffennacht

@Langeston by hardspot I mean, its really good now but could easily be made worthless if changed without a delicate touch.

I consider Winterborn to be a viable mag proc set, Zaan can be, and Overwhelming and grothdarr

About the crit; my point is; why even build for a crit build (with limited rools available) unless you're a NB? (Maybe temp)

I have seen a decent amount of current builds not run Malacath. Just say in that if Malacath was changed to non proc with no other change; I doubt itd see much play at all

MincVinyl

@Langeston sort of, I mean anything that makes certain stats less useful to stack is bad game design. Proc sets by themselves prior to malacath did this already. Earlier in the games history, soft caps and dynamic scaling ensured certain stats would always be important. Now you can take two builds. With proc sets you could ignore max stat, damage, regen and still compete damage wise against a stat build. Then everything not wasted in balancing for that damage/regen can simply be put into tankiness. This is why we see the 40k+ hp proc builds do so well so easily.

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BangX

We need wrobel back....

Firstmep

Waffennacht wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the nerfs mentioned in the below "U28 Combat Preview & Developer Update" excerpt — both the changes already made and the ones that are forthcoming.

Saying that "Critical Damage, Critical Chance, and Critical Resist ... naturally balances itself in PvP scenarios" is just inane. There's nothing "natural" about changing Impen trait effectiveness multiple times, adding in a base crit resistance, and carefully adjusting sets that change crit resistance — those are calculated tweaks aimed at a specific result. If crits in PVP are already "balanced," [spoiler: they aren't] an across the board nerf to crit chance/damage/etc directed at CP PVE will not "naturally balance itself" in PVP — crit resistance must necessarily be altered as well.

Personally, I feel that crit resistance is already too easily available without building for it, while you have to compromise quite a bit to have an effective crit build. Nerfing critical rate/damage further will only cement Malacath as BIS for most builds in no CP, and maybe even CP.

Well it is about time they addressed all the FREE damage the crit stackers have been getting. In PVP, I hear all the time the problem with Proc sets is it is Free damage but crit damage is very much worse and these seem like good changes.

I think they are right about PVE too because many min/maxers just stack crit bonus gear to maximize DPS and it is pretty boring. I don't know what their spreadsheet says but normal damage should be increased overall and crit damage should be capped at like 50% above normal. I don't think they envisioned having crit damage being 2-4 times normal damage.

Crit damage is not "free." In order to have a viable crit build, especially in no CP, you have to give up a good bit of raw stats like stamina/health/magicka, sustain, weapon/spell damage, penetration, and/or mitigation. With proc sets you give up much less because you don't have to build into crit rate and crit damage. (This is especially true on stamina builds, as stam proc sets are just out of control.)

No amount of crit rate/damage compares to firing off one ability that also sets off multiple procs (for instance Poison Injection proccing Sheer Venom (9k), Syvarra's Scales (10k+) and Venomous Smite (22k+). Building for crit is quite a balancing act and for the most part a frustrating, thankless process.

Its a thankless process that NBs will simply be better at.

The crit build is way more niche than proc. Literally any and all classes can use proc efficiently; only NBs can build focused on crit (in PvP; again more so without CP as you cant close the gap in crit modifiers)

Comparing crit build to Malacath is hard IMO (no CP). Both increase damage, while one buffs those builds that never paid into crit chance (practically every non medium armor build) the more you pay into crit modifiers the more a ganker you seem to become (a playstyle that not everyone enjoys)

Malacath is necessary to make the Mag Procs (aside from Cal) viable.

Malacath is in a hard spot. Make it not effect procs it becomes a really valueless item.

40k hp stamdens rocking EV,Endurance and Malubeth would disaggree with that last statement.

I dont get how this build would be any better than a 60k HP Thews Proc build Tbf. Seems like a watered down version. Why even go with non proc damage if you're doing 40k?

Ooooorrr maybe you're not talking about no CP? In which case, we arent on the same topic, im all about no CP BGs

Yeah in no cp those builds don't do as hot, but you can still be relevant just not as tanky.
You can still rip 5k dizzies and subs on most ppl with the mentioned setup cuz malacath and Wardens 6 billion different dmg buffs.

Firstmep

MincVinyl wrote: »

As a whole I think the crit reduction is good for the game. It is a correct direction. Stats for a long time have been too inflated with little meaning. Just from poor dev decisions over the years piling on top of each other. I mean on a normal 2h heavy armor stamsorc build I could be happily sitting at 35-40% crit

However, proc sets are an issue. Mainly due to how inflated stats are, it is so easy to reach the necessary thresholds needed to be relevant and run only proc sets. Even in nocp you can still manage to have enough stats while running all proc sets and still be as relevant as some stat builds.

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We can only hope that the next big rework they are trying to hype up is the cp system. Maybe we can dream of a cp that we can put in to reduce proc damage by X amount.

Even before malacath, most Stat builds gravitated towards raw stats like max wpd stamina pen etc, instead of crit.
Malacath just removed the random chance of waiting for lucky crits to do really big dmg, and now you have it all the time.
Crit builds typically end up being squishy, Beacuse you still need some good base stats, since crit is a multiplier to your base damage, meaning it's very hard to fit in a defensive set or get enough defenses on them in general.
It's just hard to get a good enough critrate in no cp, without ending up with a glass cannon build, and in cp crit resist is still heavily inflated even after impen nerfs.
And yes currently nbs are the only class that can pull off crit builds well in non cp due the built in extra chance and dmg they get.

ebix_

malacath should only affect active abilities, not proc sets . I can handle playing against malacath but malacath on top of 3 proc sets is ridiculously broken.

dazee

Isn't Malacath only OP in pvp becuase of Impen? I've long said Impen is a pointless trait which shouldn't even exist.

it's only worth anything in pvp, and becuase of that everyone and their mom in pvp either has it or has to get it. Now Malacath mythic gear piece comes along to show just how dumb it is.

Firstmep

dazee wrote: »

Isn't Malacath only OP in pvp becuase of Impen? I've long said Impen is a pointless trait which shouldn't even exist.

it's only worth anything in pvp, and becuase of that everyone and their mom in pvp either has it or has to get it. Now Malacath mythic gear piece comes along to show just how dumb it is.

Crit resistance is worth it, impen in gear is not that great now after the nerfs and the base crit resist they have given.
Even if malacath wouldn't affect procs, you can still make builds that are incredibly Stat dense and ignore your opponents crit resistance.
In top of it, the ring simply synergises with heavy armor too well.

dazee

Firstmep wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

Isn't Malacath only OP in pvp becuase of Impen? I've long said Impen is a pointless trait which shouldn't even exist.

it's only worth anything in pvp, and becuase of that everyone and their mom in pvp either has it or has to get it. Now Malacath mythic gear piece comes along to show just how dumb it is.

Crit resistance is worth it, impen in gear is not that great now after the nerfs and the base crit resist they have given.
Even if malacath wouldn't affect procs, you can still make builds that are incredibly Stat dense and ignore your opponents crit resistance.
In top of it, the ring simply synergises with heavy armor too well.

I'm more interested with whether it works in PVE on heavy armor builds. nerfing it only becuase of pvp would be incredibly stupid.

If a change to something because of pvp cant be done without adversely affecting it in pve, the only good action is to not change it.

katorga

Firstmep wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

Isn't Malacath only OP in pvp becuase of Impen? I've long said Impen is a pointless trait which shouldn't even exist.

it's only worth anything in pvp, and becuase of that everyone and their mom in pvp either has it or has to get it. Now Malacath mythic gear piece comes along to show just how dumb it is.

Crit resistance is worth it, impen in gear is not that great now after the nerfs and the base crit resist they have given.
Even if malacath wouldn't affect procs, you can still make builds that are incredibly Stat dense and ignore your opponents crit resistance.
In top of it, the ring simply synergises with heavy armor too well.

It is pretty ironic that after all of the wailing on the forums, ZOS doubled down on proc-malacath.

AgentUriel

I get the complaints about malacath but...

Didn't impen trait on armor get nerfed by about 40%? Doesn't that mean that crit builds just do more damage now without being directly buffed?

Why isn't there any mention about that?

olsborg

AgentUriel wrote: »

I get the complaints about malacath but...

Didn't impen trait on armor get nerfed by about 40%? Doesn't that mean that crit builds just do more damage now without being directly buffed?

Why isn't there any mention about that?

Everyone got free innate 1350 impen, so many ppl got more impen these days then before.

AgentUriel

olsborg wrote: »

AgentUriel wrote: »

I get the complaints about malacath but...

Didn't impen trait on armor get nerfed by about 40%? Doesn't that mean that crit builds just do more damage now without being directly buffed?

Why isn't there any mention about that?

Everyone got free innate 1350 impen, so many ppl got more impen these days then before.

Dude I can't remember that far back but ppl having innate crit resist isn't anything new...

Your observation seems rather pointless. Also from my friends that PvP more than me they prefer to get their crit resist up to 3k. You can't do that in no cp. Crit is still viable (indirectly buffed).

olsborg

AgentUriel wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

AgentUriel wrote: »

I get the complaints about malacath but...

Didn't impen trait on armor get nerfed by about 40%? Doesn't that mean that crit builds just do more damage now without being directly buffed?

Why isn't there any mention about that?

Everyone got free innate 1350 impen, so many ppl got more impen these days then before.

Dude I can't remember that far back but ppl having innate crit resist isn't anything new...

Your observation seems rather pointless. Also from my friends that PvP more than me they prefer to get their crit resist up to 3k. You can't do that in no cp. Crit is still viable (indirectly buffed).

IMO crit builds arent very viable in nocp because you cant get it that high, and if you use all sets and traits etc to get it to reasonable levels, your base dmg is very meh. But if you just build for base dmg or proccsets and slap on malacath, boom it will outshine everything else.