A Vampires' suggestion for the Ring of the Pale Order

ShadowHvo

Greetings,

Your resident hopeful Vampire is at it again. Hopefully this time, with a change so minor that it just might reach some ears.

It's obvious to any observer, that the Ring of the Pale Order is a very Vampiric themed mythical item. This suggestion will hammer home that point to the max, while also providing an easy solution, that I believe will help out a lot of the struggling vampires out there.

In addition to the percentage of damage dealt returned as health, I propose that this ring also locks the Vampires Stage (If a Vampire) AND negates the Ability Cost Modifiers from their given stage. Both positive and negative.

What would a change like this do? Three things, really:
1. It allows player to actually play a Vampire in their preferred stage. They can feed without worry of increasing their stage, and have an epic experience catered to their preference of play.
2. It allows Vampirism to not be a blatant nerf to Tanks, Healers and Stamina DD's, in particular in the later stages, while still maintaining the core weaknesses of Vampirism (Fire Damage).
3. It prevents Blood for Blood from becoming completely and utterly busted for Magicka DD's, wherein this rings sole strength really lies. While still allowing the ring to be an overall useful tool to any Vampire, regardless of class, build, weapon or primary resource.

I propose that the setbonus tooltip could read something like this:

(1) Restore 15% of the damage you deal as Health. You cannot be healed by anyone but yourself. If the wearer is a Vampire, their Vampirism Stage is locked. In addition, the Stage Ability Cost Modifiers are negated.
---

That's it, my humble little suggestion that would make a worlds difference for my enjoyment as a Vampire in ESO. As a long standing fan, Greymoor left a sour taste in my mouth. But at least a change like this, no matter how inconveniently made through a Mythic Item, would greatly help alleviate a lot of issues with the revamped Vampirism. While of course, still heavily indulge in the Vampiric theme of the Chapter, and be appropriate for a Mythical Ring.

o/

Enjoy, discuss, all that good jazz. Thanks for reading.

Kurat

Its probably gonna get nerfed patch after. Same as stranglers, it's too op atm.

Xarico

That's a great idea.

Nova_J

That's not a bad idea, but this thing is gonna get nerfed lol.

VoidCommander

It might get nerfed, but I think it is in a good spot where it is. It will be useful for blood for blood even without further changes. I’m just disappointed that using bfb with this ring will likely eliminate the 4-5k dps from a monster set.

Jodynn

VoidCommander wrote: »

It might get nerfed, but I think it is in a good spot where it is. It will be useful for blood for blood even without further changes. I’m just disappointed that using bfb with this ring will likely eliminate the 4-5k dps from a monster set.

Pair it with frenzy, you can do enough DPS before 20 stacks, so you get around the same DPS or more depending on certain factors, and a lot more for AoE.

Jodynn

Shame you can't pair with willpower.

Jodynn

I like your idea btw

Vayln_Ninetails

I feel like for a mythical item if it is going to have any tie in with vamps, it should just remove the negative vamp ability cost?

Why have it remove the ONE good thing vampires get from their passives? That seems kind of silly.

ManM

As awful as the vampire rework has been, I have a suspicion that this ring was supposed to be the thing that made the kit work. That way, you can finally be a viable vampire again, but only if you pay for access to the ring. The problem is that it will be even more useful for characters not gimped by vampirism, and will be nerfed to bring it in line with their use, which will make it unable to prop up vampires.

So, I'd say leave the ring as it is, but scale the life drain percentage based on the vampire stage of the wearer. Mortals? Something low. 5%? Then go up in 5% increments per vampire stage. Stage 1 gets 10%, 2 gets 15%, etc. That would definitely make higher stage vampire look a bit more compelling.

Celestro

ManM wrote: »

As awful as the vampire rework has been, I have a suspicion that this ring was supposed to be the thing that made the kit work. That way, you can finally be a viable vampire again, but only if you pay for access to the ring. The problem is that it will be even more useful for characters not gimped by vampirism, and will be nerfed to bring it in line with their use, which will make it unable to prop up vampires.

So, I'd say leave the ring as it is, but scale the life drain percentage based on the vampire stage of the wearer. Mortals? Something low. 5%? Then go up in 5% increments per vampire stage. Stage 1 gets 10%, 2 gets 15%, etc. That would definitely make higher stage vampire look a bit more compelling.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if it was made to largely cater to those opting to be vampires. I feel like the bonuses should be like 3% for non-vampire and increase in increments of 3% per stage so 15% at the most as it is currently. Or even 2% and 2% increments for 10% since I still feel like the current bonus would be better at 10% regardless.

ShadowHvo

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

I feel like for a mythical item if it is going to have any tie in with vamps, it should just remove the negative vamp ability cost?

Why have it remove the ONE good thing vampires get from their passives? That seems kind of silly.

To balance it out, really.

Though tbh, I wouldn't mind if it stayed. I would just like it to lock the Vampirism Stage, and remove the awful Regular Ability Cost Increase.

it really gimps anybody that isn't a Magicka Damage Dealer, and it hurts, because thats not what Vampirism is about at all.

Vayln_Ninetails

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

I feel like for a mythical item if it is going to have any tie in with vamps, it should just remove the negative vamp ability cost?

Why have it remove the ONE good thing vampires get from their passives? That seems kind of silly.

To balance it out, really.

Though tbh, I wouldn't mind if it stayed. I would just like it to lock the Vampirism Stage, and remove the awful Regular Ability Cost Increase.

it really gimps anybody that isn't a Magicka Damage Dealer, and it hurts, because thats not what Vampirism is about at all.

I'd be down with it locking the vamp stage and removing the regular ability cost, but not at the cost of losing the one good passive buff vampires get.

Jeremy

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Greetings,

Your resident hopeful Vampire is at it again. Hopefully this time, with a change so minor that it just might reach some ears.

It's obvious to any observer, that the Ring of the Pale Order is a very Vampiric themed mythical item. This suggestion will hammer home that point to the max, while also providing an easy solution, that I believe will help out a lot of the struggling vampires out there.

In addition to the percentage of damage dealt returned as health, I propose that this ring also locks the Vampires Stage (If a Vampire) AND negates the Ability Cost Modifiers from their given stage. Both positive and negative.

What would a change like this do? Three things, really:
1. It allows player to actually play a Vampire in their preferred stage. They can feed without worry of increasing their stage, and have an epic experience catered to their preference of play.
2. It allows Vampirism to not be a blatant nerf to Tanks, Healers and Stamina DD's, in particular in the later stages, while still maintaining the core weaknesses of Vampirism (Fire Damage).
3. It prevents Blood for Blood from becoming completely and utterly busted for Magicka DD's, wherein this rings sole strength really lies. While still allowing the ring to be an overall useful tool to any Vampire, regardless of class, build, weapon or primary resource.

I propose that the setbonus tooltip could read something like this:

(1) Restore 15% of the damage you deal as Health. You cannot be healed by anyone but yourself. If the wearer is a Vampire, their Vampirism Stage is locked. In addition, the Stage Ability Cost Modifiers are negated.
---

That's it, my humble little suggestion that would make a worlds difference for my enjoyment as a Vampire in ESO. As a long standing fan, Greymoor left a sour taste in my mouth. But at least a change like this, no matter how inconveniently made through a Mythic Item, would greatly help alleviate a lot of issues with the revamped Vampirism. While of course, still heavily indulge in the Vampiric theme of the Chapter, and be appropriate for a Mythical Ring.

o/

Enjoy, discuss, all that good jazz. Thanks for reading.

Did this change in the PTS?

Because currently on live that is basically all feeding does (at least that I'm aware of) is advance your stage. So outside of maybe role playing purposes, I don't really understand why a Vampire needs to be able to feed without affecting their stage development, since that is the purpose of feeding in the first place. So can't Vampires already effectively lock their stage by simply choosing at what stage to stop feeding at?

I hope they didn't change this aspect of the Vampire, because it was one of the best changes they made.

Vayln_Ninetails

Jeremy wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Greetings,

Your resident hopeful Vampire is at it again. Hopefully this time, with a change so minor that it just might reach some ears.

It's obvious to any observer, that the Ring of the Pale Order is a very Vampiric themed mythical item. This suggestion will hammer home that point to the max, while also providing an easy solution, that I believe will help out a lot of the struggling vampires out there.

In addition to the percentage of damage dealt returned as health, I propose that this ring also locks the Vampires Stage (If a Vampire) AND negates the Ability Cost Modifiers from their given stage. Both positive and negative.

What would a change like this do? Three things, really:
1. It allows player to actually play a Vampire in their preferred stage. They can feed without worry of increasing their stage, and have an epic experience catered to their preference of play.
2. It allows Vampirism to not be a blatant nerf to Tanks, Healers and Stamina DD's, in particular in the later stages, while still maintaining the core weaknesses of Vampirism (Fire Damage).
3. It prevents Blood for Blood from becoming completely and utterly busted for Magicka DD's, wherein this rings sole strength really lies. While still allowing the ring to be an overall useful tool to any Vampire, regardless of class, build, weapon or primary resource.

I propose that the setbonus tooltip could read something like this:

(1) Restore 15% of the damage you deal as Health. You cannot be healed by anyone but yourself. If the wearer is a Vampire, their Vampirism Stage is locked. In addition, the Stage Ability Cost Modifiers are negated.
---

That's it, my humble little suggestion that would make a worlds difference for my enjoyment as a Vampire in ESO. As a long standing fan, Greymoor left a sour taste in my mouth. But at least a change like this, no matter how inconveniently made through a Mythic Item, would greatly help alleviate a lot of issues with the revamped Vampirism. While of course, still heavily indulge in the Vampiric theme of the Chapter, and be appropriate for a Mythical Ring.

o/

Enjoy, discuss, all that good jazz. Thanks for reading.

Did this change in the PTS?

Because currently on live that is basically all feeding does (at least that I'm aware of) is advance your stage. So outside of maybe role playing purposes, I don't really understand why a Vampire needs to be able to feed without affecting their stage development, since that is the purpose of feeding in the first place. So can't Vampires already effectively lock their stage by simply choosing at what stage to stop feeding at?

I hope they didn't change this aspect of the Vampire, because it was one of the best changes they made.

He's talking about locking it at like, stage 1 or 3 but allowing you to still feed. At the moment you cannot still feed without going up in stages.

Jeremy

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Greetings,

Your resident hopeful Vampire is at it again. Hopefully this time, with a change so minor that it just might reach some ears.

It's obvious to any observer, that the Ring of the Pale Order is a very Vampiric themed mythical item. This suggestion will hammer home that point to the max, while also providing an easy solution, that I believe will help out a lot of the struggling vampires out there.

In addition to the percentage of damage dealt returned as health, I propose that this ring also locks the Vampires Stage (If a Vampire) AND negates the Ability Cost Modifiers from their given stage. Both positive and negative.

What would a change like this do? Three things, really:
1. It allows player to actually play a Vampire in their preferred stage. They can feed without worry of increasing their stage, and have an epic experience catered to their preference of play.
2. It allows Vampirism to not be a blatant nerf to Tanks, Healers and Stamina DD's, in particular in the later stages, while still maintaining the core weaknesses of Vampirism (Fire Damage).
3. It prevents Blood for Blood from becoming completely and utterly busted for Magicka DD's, wherein this rings sole strength really lies. While still allowing the ring to be an overall useful tool to any Vampire, regardless of class, build, weapon or primary resource.

I propose that the setbonus tooltip could read something like this:

(1) Restore 15% of the damage you deal as Health. You cannot be healed by anyone but yourself. If the wearer is a Vampire, their Vampirism Stage is locked. In addition, the Stage Ability Cost Modifiers are negated.
---

That's it, my humble little suggestion that would make a worlds difference for my enjoyment as a Vampire in ESO. As a long standing fan, Greymoor left a sour taste in my mouth. But at least a change like this, no matter how inconveniently made through a Mythic Item, would greatly help alleviate a lot of issues with the revamped Vampirism. While of course, still heavily indulge in the Vampiric theme of the Chapter, and be appropriate for a Mythical Ring.

o/

Enjoy, discuss, all that good jazz. Thanks for reading.

Did this change in the PTS?

Because currently on live that is basically all feeding does (at least that I'm aware of) is advance your stage. So outside of maybe role playing purposes, I don't really understand why a Vampire needs to be able to feed without affecting their stage development, since that is the purpose of feeding in the first place. So can't Vampires already effectively lock their stage by simply choosing at what stage to stop feeding at?

I hope they didn't change this aspect of the Vampire, because it was one of the best changes they made.

He's talking about locking it at like, stage 1 or 3 but allowing you to still feed. At the moment you cannot still feed without going up in stages.

Isn't that the purpose of feeding, to go up in stages? What else does feeding do?

Xarico

Jeremy wrote: »

Because currently on live that is basically all feeding does (at least that I'm aware of) is advance your stage. So outside of maybe role playing purposes, I don't really understand why a Vampire needs to be able to feed without affecting their stage development, since that is the purpose of feeding in the first place. So can't Vampires already effectively lock their stage by simply choosing at what stage to stop feeding at?

I hope they didn't change this aspect of the Vampire, because it was one of the best changes they made.

You could say it's "for rp," but I would say it's an understatement. To me, a vampire character who doesn't feed on people makes roughly as much sense as a werewolf character who doesn't transform into a beast; at this point being labeled a "vampire" or a "werewolf" is entirely irrelevant. I would prefer it if feeding was required to keep my character at a stage where he is most capable and powerful, but, unfortunately, right now it does the exact opposite.

Jeremy

Xarico wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Because currently on live that is basically all feeding does (at least that I'm aware of) is advance your stage. So outside of maybe role playing purposes, I don't really understand why a Vampire needs to be able to feed without affecting their stage development, since that is the purpose of feeding in the first place. So can't Vampires already effectively lock their stage by simply choosing at what stage to stop feeding at?

I hope they didn't change this aspect of the Vampire, because it was one of the best changes they made.

You could say it's "for rp," but I would say it's an understatement. To me, a vampire character who doesn't feed on people makes roughly as much sense as a werewolf character who doesn't transform into a beast; at this point being labeled a "vampire" or a "werewolf" is entirely irrelevant. I would prefer it if feeding was required to keep my character at a stage where he is most capable and powerful, but, unfortunately, right now it does the exact opposite.

I believe the intent was to allow for players to choose to be a less "corrupted" Vampire who resists the urge to feed. Then the more savage and corrupted ones who feed regularly (stage 4). But that's a different topic.

I was just curious as to why the system needed a mythic item to "lock" stages since players can already effectively lock their Vampire into an earlier stage by simply forgoing feeding. So I was worried they might have changed the current system on live - which I much prefer to the old one.

Feeding regularly to maintain a stage may sound cool on paper. But when put into actual practice it leaves a lot to be desired, because it's kind of hard to take time to go feed while you're in the middle of a dungeon or doing a battleground.

ShadowHvo

Jeremy wrote: »

I believe the intent was to allow for players to choose to be a less "corrupted" Vampire who resists the urge to feed. Then the more savage and corrupted ones who feed regularly (stage 4). But that's a different topic.

I was just curious as to why the system needed a mythic item to "lock" stages since players can already effectively lock their Vampire into an earlier stage by simply forgoing feeding. So I was worried they might have changed the current system on live - which I much prefer to the old one.

Feeding regularly to maintain a stage may sound cool on paper. But when put into actual practice it leaves a lot to be desired, because it's kind of hard to take time to go feed while you're in the middle of a dungeon or doing a battleground.

That was the intent, yes. Even though it does heavily contradict how Vampirism function in TES. But at least they offered in a blanket excuse via Lamae Bal as to why Noxiphilic Sanguivoria functions so uniquely to other Vampiric Bloodlines.

Though I do really agree with you, in that the stages sound cool on paper but just function very awfully in practice. That is precisely why I would like for this ring to sort of be the "Vampire Mythic Item" that really caters to those few of us who really want to play a Vampire in TES.

With the above suggestion in my OP, people can pick and choose their preferred stage, smack on the ring and have a very vampiric centric gameplay through constant health-leeching, albeit at a severe cost of not being able to be healed by anyone but yourself.

That in and of itself is also thematically fitting, since Vampires are undead creatures, and for them to be self-reliant and in need of the blood of their enemies is rather thematically appropriate.

Tbh, I honestly just want to give Vampire Tanks, Healers and Stamina DD's a viable reason to play. I've been a Vampire since before the game even officially launched (Bitten by Bloodfiends in Early Release) and I have never cured it. Greymoor just made me not want to play, simply because of how dissatisfying it became, as I play a Stamina-based Assassin type of character.

Xarico

Jeremy wrote: »

I believe the intent was to allow for players to choose to be a less "corrupted" Vampire who resists the urge to feed. Then the more savage and corrupted ones who feed regularly (stage 4). But that's a different topic.

I was just curious as to why the system needed a mythic item to "lock" stages since players can already effectively lock their Vampire into an earlier stage by simply forgoing feeding. So I was worried they might have changed the current system on live - which I much prefer to the old one.

Feeding regularly to maintain a stage may sound cool on paper. But when put into actual practice it leaves a lot to be desired, because it's kind of hard to take time to go feed while you're in the middle of a dungeon or doing a battleground.

There are no vampires in TES who can "resist the urge to feed" for a prolonged period of time and keep their sanity. Even the most guilt-ridden and/or religious ones (the Ravenwatch vampires, the Tenarr Zalviit, Galur Rithari) feed on humans one way or the other. Or, I suppose, you can also have Valeric's group who consume only animal blood and slowly go insane; other than being unsustainable, this choice is not even available to the PC.

There is also no indication that feeding regularly leads to visually perceivable corruption, loss of regenerative ability, and fatigue/decreased mental capacity/whatever is the possible in-game explanation behind the increased skill cost. All of these deficits are, however, what one would expect to see in a starved vampire.

If you cannot find an NPC to feed on once every 4/6 real life hours, you can always take some Bloody Maras with you and drink them in between your actual potions, which would take just a few seconds of your time and an insignificant amount of gold. To me, this is what an actual reasonable detriment to playing a vampire sounds like, not the ability cost increase or two key skills that prevent your teammates from healing you (which, unlike the mild annoyance of having to take one more consumable, is currently making most - if not all - vampire builds vastly inferior to their non-vampire equivalents).

ShadowHvo

Xarico wrote: »

There are no vampires in TES who can "resist the urge to feed" for a prolonged period of time and keep their sanity. Even the most guilt-ridden and/or religious ones (the Ravenwatch vampires, the Tenarr Zalviit, Galur Rithari) feed on humans one way or the other. Or, I suppose, you can also have Valeric's group who consume only animal blood and slowly go insane; other than being unsustainable, this choice is not even available to the PC.

There is also no indication that feeding regularly leads to visually perceivable corruption, loss of regenerative ability, and fatigue/decreased mental capacity/whatever is the possible in-game explanation behind the increased skill cost. All of these deficits are, however, what one would expect to see in a starved vampire.

If you cannot find an NPC to feed on once every 4/6 real life hours, you can always take some Bloody Maras with you and drink them in between your actual potions, which would take just a few seconds of your time and an insignificant amount of gold. To me, this is what an actual reasonable detriment to playing a vampire sounds like, not the ability cost increase or two key skills that prevent your teammates from healing you (which, unlike the mild annoyance of having to take one more consumable, is currently making most - if not all - vampire builds vastly inferior to their non-vampire equivalents).

It is not just one consumable, but two - as you continously have to reapply whatever was lost when applying the Blood Mara.

Vampirism in TES, at least in since Oblivion, has worked on a fundamental practice wherein the more you fed, the more human and lifelike the Vampire appeared, or in other words: socially masquerading. While on the other hand, the more famished the Vampire became, so too did they grow increasingly more monstrous.

ESO very unnessarcily switched that on its head. Now Vampires dont drink blood to stay sane or regain a resembelence of their mortality, but they feed to actively "corrupt" themselves.

I vastly prefer the old system, obviously. But its a lost cause to debate that, because Zenimax has clearly shown that they dont care about the canon implication of Vampirism.

A ring like my suggestion, would simply further add viability to the Vampire across most builds, rather than having Vampirism br a blatant nerf to anything not a Magicka DD, as it currently is (and arguably, still bad.)

.... I just want to have fun playing ESO again. =/

Xarico

ShadowHvo wrote: »

It is not just one consumable, but two - as you continously have to reapply whatever was lost when applying the Blood Mara.

Vampirism in TES, at least in since Oblivion, has worked on a fundamental practice wherein the more you fed, the more human and lifelike the Vampire appeared, or in other words: socially masquerading. While on the other hand, the more famished the Vampire became, so too did they grow increasingly more monstrous.

ESO very unnessarcily switched that on its head. Now Vampires dont drink blood to stay sane or regain a resembelence of their mortality, but they feed to actively "corrupt" themselves.

I vastly prefer the old system, obviously. But its a lost cause to debate that, because Zenimax has clearly shown that they dont care about the canon implication of Vampirism.

A ring like my suggestion, would simply further add viability to the Vampire across most builds, rather than having Vampirism br a blatant nerf to anything not a Magicka DD, as it currently is (and arguably, still bad.)

.... I just want to have fun playing ESO again. =/

Drinks don't last four hours. You could drink BM before reapplying your buff of choice that was about to run out.
To each their own, but I prefer a system where feeding is mandatory and keeping your character in a good shape requires at least some effort and forethought. To me, it is systems like this (not just this particular issue in isolation) that make - or, rather, could make - vampire gameplay unique, not bat-themed skills or pale skin.

Both Oblivion and Skyrim shied away from punishing the PC's actions the way their own lore demands. This issue is, of course, not exclusive to vampirism.

UrbanMonk

Except its not a Vamoire related items...Lore wise.
Pale Watch as in original name was a garrison of Daggerfall sent to Orsinium to ensure its not rebuilt till King Emeric actually allowed it.

ShadowHvo

UrbanMonk wrote: »

Except its not a Vamoire related items...Lore wise.
Pale Watch as in original name was a garrison of Daggerfall sent to Orsinium to ensure its not rebuilt till King Emeric actually allowed it.

It's called Ring of the Pale Order, not Ring of the Pale Watch.

I'll say the flavor text and effect is the most Vampiricly themed we've ever had, beating even the likes such as The Vampire Lord Set.

ShadowHvo

Xarico wrote: »

Drinks don't last four hours. You could drink BM before reapplying your buff of choice that was about to run out.
To each their own, but I prefer a system where feeding is mandatory and keeping your character in a good shape requires at least some effort and forethought. To me, it is systems like this (not just this particular issue in isolation) that make - or, rather, could make - vampire gameplay unique, not bat-themed skills or pale skin.

Both Oblivion and Skyrim shied away from punishing the PC's actions the way their own lore demands. This issue is, of course, not exclusive to vampirism.

They don't, but its an hour long thing that you have to manage careful if you wish to avoid unnecessary wastage.

Also, I'll prefer they just took it full in with the disadvantages, and with that I mean a far higher weakness to fire, and Stage 4 being an instant criminal offense. Hell, if it were up to me, I'll even slap sun-damage into the mix as well.

We obviously cannot have all of that because of this being an MMO and not a singleplayer game where pressing T allows you to skip time. But alas, the current iteration of the Greymoor Vampire feels just as lackluster in providing the player a proper TES Vampire experience, as the original 2014 incarnation did. All Greymoor did was buff it visually, but nerf its actual viability.

Kardrik

The thing a lot of people are missing here is that the devs actually intended Stage 4 to be the "Stronger" stage of Vampirism. Right now you fight a lot more effectively at stage 1, and that was not what was originally intended.
Its not "ZoS made vampires get weaker as they feed" They did this accidentally by going too far on the weaknesses while forgetting to give them any real strengths and said "This checks all the boxes of what it means to be a vampire".

Vampire take extra flame damage with little compensation for it in the durability department
Vampires lose out on health regen with little compensation, because Vampiric Drain fails at everything it attempts except ultimate generation. Its damage is trash, its heal is trash for a channel, it doesn't stun, it snares you... its just bad.
The Blood For Blood bit about being able to be healed by no one but yourself would work if Vampires didn't take a net hit to their durability AND selfhealing.
On top of all that our sustain takes a huge hit because the cost decrease to Vampire abilities doesn't mean squat if the abilities are all trash.

Ring of the Pale Order adds something that Vampires are sorely lacking: The ability to actually heal themselves by damaging their enemies, which they very painfully are not doing right now.
But now its available to all, so its likely to miss its mark.