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I'm sorry but Full pass on class abilities is unavoidable!!!

Lughlongarm
Lughlongarm
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"We have not done a full pass on class abilities since the SBE system is generally meant to be designed for non-abilities; that said, we will keep a close eye on class functionality in PvE and PvP due to these changes."

I don't know the new SBE system could be released without addressing this issue. Some classes passives and skills were being evaluated heavily based on on the old minor/major system while other classes got more emphasize on unique buffs and debuffs.

Look at Warden for example, probably the class with the most minor/major buffs:

Minor Protection: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%.
Major Protection: Decreased to 10%, down from 30%.
Minor Maim: Decreased to 5%, down from 15%
Major Mending: Decreased to 16%, down from 25%

Minor Berserk: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%
Minor Vulnerability: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%

This list only includes key factors elements of probably every Warden build. The shift in damage output potential is probably manageable, but on the survivability side this is huge hit with nothing to really compensate.

-Permafrost(ulti) isprobably one of the weakest ulties in the game ATM, arguably a weaker skill now than Spirit Guardian(Necro healing skill).
-You have skills like "Repentance" which just became one of the most OP skills in the game.

These are just examples, a full pass on class abilities and passives must be made.
Edited by Lughlongarm on September 22, 2020 11:53AM
  • Cinbri
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    We indeed need and obviously will get pass on class abilities once zos evaluate how they wana ruin AoEs.
    But for now rebalance did good thing - finally toned down both p2w classes.
  • Recapitated
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    Stamden defense needs to be knocked down a peg, and it wasn't going to happen on purpose so it stands to reason that it was going to be by accident.

    In all seriousness, you're right. This is the victory of theory over practice and "standards" over balance. These changes could have waited until they went over abilities, just as it was understood that certain sets would need to change.
  • FirmamentOfStars
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    I agree that class abilities and passives need to be looked at soon. Sadly your example was badly chosen, since stamden atm was too strong and does not need improvements defense wise. Mostly the original 4 classes need to be looked at and the magicka toons of warden and necromancer need their offense improved. Sadly stamcro didnt get hit hard enough to bring it in line with the older classes, their inherent tankyness comes from unique mitigation passives, which are not touched on the pts.
  • Recapitated
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    That line in the notes is essentially an admission: "we recognize that we're releasing yet another unbalanced patch on purpose and we think that's a price worth paying so someone somewhere can keep their head buried in a spreadsheet"
  • Canned_Apples
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    They aren’t going over abilities again. None of their changes have gone over well and some were even completely reverted.
    They seem to have given up on class balance and are now balancing the game around their party to win items.
    “We’re nerfing healing, but we’re introducing a new item that’ll heal you for X% of the damage you do.” “Here’s a new proc set that’ll help you delete players with a heavy attack, but you have to buy the latest solo arena.”

    These changes were done to monetize pvp players.
  • olsborg
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    Warden and Necro is/was so f OP and p2w its a joke. They got indirectly nerfed hardest because of the buff changes, god forbid zos actually would nerf them directly, but they wouldnt touch their cash cows.

    What pisses me most off is how they removed minor berserk from nb, but gave it to warden. NB is the class with the least amount of buffs available to them and warden is the one with the most...that makes no kind of sense at all.

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • Revokus
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    olsborg wrote: »
    Warden and Necro is/was so f OP and p2w its a joke. They got indirectly nerfed hardest because of the buff changes, god forbid zos actually would nerf them directly, but they wouldnt touch their cash cows.

    What pisses me most off is how they removed minor berserk from nb, but gave it to warden. NB is the class with the least amount of buffs available to them and warden is the one with the most...that makes no kind of sense at all.

    Lmao Stamblade and Magsorc are the best solo PvP classes since forever. Magsorc and Stamblade are P2W !! Nerf em !!
    Edited by Revokus on September 22, 2020 1:51PM
    Playing since January 23, 2016
  • FENGRUSH
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    Permafrost weakest ulti in game atm? Lol nice one.
  • Lughlongarm
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    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    Permafrost weakest ulti in game atm? Lol nice one.

    200 ulti for 12 sec of 10% damage reduction and snare is not that great.
  • CaffeinatedMayhem
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    I agree that class abilities and passives need to be looked at soon. Sadly your example was badly chosen, since stamden atm was too strong and does not need improvements defense wise. Mostly the original 4 classes need to be looked at and the magicka toons of warden and necromancer need their offense improved. Sadly stamcro didnt get hit hard enough to bring it in line with the older classes, their inherent tankyness comes from unique mitigation passives, which are not touched on the pts.

    This. Warden overall is not OP - only stamden DAMAGE, which is arguably the stamina toolkit being OP as compared to magicka. Warden tanking still has issues, notably CC (yes silver leash exists, but frozen device is a pain to use and gripping shards just never seems to work as well as talons)

    Stamcro's tankiness comes directly from Spirit Warden plus Summoner's Armor and major protection from Deaden Pain (all active skills). The Major protection reduction will hit stamcro, but not as hard as it needed.
    Edited by CaffeinatedMayhem on September 22, 2020 9:58PM
  • llBlack_Heartll
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    I agree that class abilities and passives need to be looked at soon. Sadly your example was badly chosen, since stamden atm was too strong and does not need improvements defense wise. Mostly the original 4 classes need to be looked at and the magicka toons of warden and necromancer need their offense improved. Sadly stamcro didnt get hit hard enough to bring it in line with the older classes, their inherent tankyness comes from unique mitigation passives, which are not touched on the pts.

    This. Warden overall is not OP - only stamden DAMAGE, which is arguably the stamina toolkit being OP as compared to magicka. Warden tanking still has issues, notably CC (yes silver leash exists, but frozen device is a pain to use and gripping shards just never seems to work as well as talons)

    Stamcro's tankiness comes directly from Spirit Warden plus Summoner's Armor and major protection from Deaden Pain (all active skills). The Major protection reduction will hit stamcro, but not as hard as it needed.

    Think you all forget Warden and Necro don't have executes and high burst damage is the trade off for that. I also hope you are all talking about Stamden's being OP in PvP (Which im sure they actually aren't), because they are actually the weakest DPS class in PVE. Yet all of these changes are a direct Nerf to Stamden PVE.
  • Recapitated
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    I agree that class abilities and passives need to be looked at soon. Sadly your example was badly chosen, since stamden atm was too strong and does not need improvements defense wise. Mostly the original 4 classes need to be looked at and the magicka toons of warden and necromancer need their offense improved. Sadly stamcro didnt get hit hard enough to bring it in line with the older classes, their inherent tankyness comes from unique mitigation passives, which are not touched on the pts.

    This. Warden overall is not OP - only stamden DAMAGE, which is arguably the stamina toolkit being OP as compared to magicka. Warden tanking still has issues, notably CC (yes silver leash exists, but frozen device is a pain to use and gripping shards just never seems to work as well as talons)

    Stamcro's tankiness comes directly from Spirit Warden plus Summoner's Armor and major protection from Deaden Pain (all active skills). The Major protection reduction will hit stamcro, but not as hard as it needed.

    Think you all forget Warden and Necro don't have executes and high burst damage is the trade off for that. I also hope you are all talking about Stamden's being OP in PvP (Which im sure they actually aren't), because they are actually the weakest DPS class in PVE. Yet all of these changes are a direct Nerf to Stamden PVE.

    Of the 6 stam classes you can play, pretty sure only one has a class execute and they still tend to use Executioner in PVP.
  • Ariades_swe
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    olsborg wrote: »
    Warden and Necro is/was so f OP and p2w its a joke. They got indirectly nerfed hardest because of the buff changes, god forbid zos actually would nerf them directly, but they wouldnt touch their cash cows.

    What pisses me most off is how they removed minor berserk from nb, but gave it to warden. NB is the class with the least amount of buffs available to them and warden is the one with the most...that makes no kind of sense at all.

    Lol.
    Stamblade prettt much the best pvp stamclass this patch and it's gonna be relatively even more op compared to the other classes next patch.
  • techyeshic
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    They never do all at once to adjust for the impact of sets, buffs, weapons, skills and classes all have on each other. They seem to not have a big enough team on it to do so. Most resources are focused on churning out quarterly content which causes a lot to be then stuck behind the eight ball fixing it, never to catch up. The same will happen when they finally get to CP as well.
  • Koubo
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    I agree that class abilities and passives need to be looked at soon. Sadly your example was badly chosen, since stamden atm was too strong and does not need improvements defense wise. Mostly the original 4 classes need to be looked at and the magicka toons of warden and necromancer need their offense improved. Sadly stamcro didnt get hit hard enough to bring it in line with the older classes, their inherent tankyness comes from unique mitigation passives, which are not touched on the pts.

    This. Warden overall is not OP - only stamden DAMAGE, which is arguably the stamina toolkit being OP as compared to magicka. Warden tanking still has issues, notably CC (yes silver leash exists, but frozen device is a pain to use and gripping shards just never seems to work as well as talons)

    Stamcro's tankiness comes directly from Spirit Warden plus Summoner's Armor and major protection from Deaden Pain (all active skills). The Major protection reduction will hit stamcro, but not as hard as it needed.

    Think you all forget Warden and Necro don't have executes and high burst damage is the trade off for that.


    You forgot that some other classes dont have that tankyness in PvP neither Execute too! And some dont have burst damage for PvP at all LMAO.
    I agree on Warden need a tweak for PVE dps, but i heard they are so broken in PvP so... it's kinda hard to buff PvE damage without making them GOD in PvP. . . MagCro need a tweak in PvE DPS too, but same. They are already needed and strong because of the support hey can bring. Make them first DPS and you will see 8 necros in trials.
    Who want that? Not me... (and i have Stam/MagNecros...)
  • Atherakhia
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    I agree that class abilities and passives need to be looked at soon. Sadly your example was badly chosen, since stamden atm was too strong and does not need improvements defense wise. Mostly the original 4 classes need to be looked at and the magicka toons of warden and necromancer need their offense improved. Sadly stamcro didnt get hit hard enough to bring it in line with the older classes, their inherent tankyness comes from unique mitigation passives, which are not touched on the pt2+s.

    This. Warden overall is not OP - only stamden DAMAGE, which is arguably the stamina toolkit being OP as compared to magicka. Warden tanking still has issues, notably CC (yes silver leash exists, but frozen device is a pain to use and gripping shards just never seems to work as well as talons)

    Stamcro's tankiness comes directly from Spirit Warden plus Summoner's Armor and major protection from Deaden Pain (all active skills). The Major protection reduction will hit stamcro, but not as hard as it needed.

    Keep in mind that Mag Necros use the same mechanics as Stam and they are awful currently. It's also worth noting that with things like Major Protection and Major Mending, they have typically been balanced around the fact that their durations are quite short and must be activated to counter spikes pretty well. With both Protection and Mending having their values dramatically reduced, do skills that also cast Prot and Mending still need to be such short durations when the buffs are so trivial?

    I think we need to see things like Major Protection and Major Mending boosted back up to 20% and we'll likely need to see something like the mender to convey minor protection instead of a stacking 10% damage debuff.
  • Skjaldbjorn
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    Oh, look. Another thread harping on Warden nerfs, but not advocating to buff their abysmal PVE DPS situation.
  • Firstmep
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    "We have not done a full pass on class abilities since the SBE system is generally meant to be designed for non-abilities; that said, we will keep a close eye on class functionality in PvE and PvP due to these changes."

    I don't know the new SBE system could be released without addressing this issue. Some classes passives and skills were being evaluated heavily based on on the old minor/major system while other classes got more emphasize on unique buffs and debuffs.

    Look at Warden for example, probably the class with the most minor/major buffs:

    Minor Protection: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%.
    Major Protection: Decreased to 10%, down from 30%.
    Minor Maim: Decreased to 5%, down from 15%
    Major Mending: Decreased to 16%, down from 25%

    Minor Berserk: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%
    Minor Vulnerability: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%

    This list only includes key factors elements of probably every Warden build. The shift in damage output potential is probably manageable, but on the survivability side this is huge hit with nothing to really compensate.

    -Permafrost(ulti) isprobably one of the weakest ulties in the game ATM, arguably a weaker skill now than Spirit Guardian(Necro healing skill).
    -You have skills like "Repentance" which just became one of the most OP skills in the game.

    These are just examples, a full pass on class abilities and passives must be made.

    How? You realize that you have to double bar the skill to get the recovery on both bars right? Sorcs already get 20% Stam andp recovery for having daedric summoning skill slotted, yet a lot of stamsorcs don't even slot those skills.
    20% regen is not really a good reason to double bar and otherwise not that great skill.
  • Lughlongarm
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    I think most of the comments ae missing the point. This is not a buff Warden thread nor it is a a nerf Templar thread. I used the Warden example as I mainly play Magicka Warden and mostly for PvP. This is just the class and situations I'm most familiar with.

    Point is, the changes which are coming the new SBE system are just too extreme to ignore in terms of Class balance.
  • JohnOfMarkarth
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    Oh, look. Another thread harping on Warden nerfs, but not advocating to buff their abysmal PVE DPS situation.

    its endless

    make wardens base game already and peeps wont have an empty chip on their shoulder. Its not like people go around buying those classes en mass, most already had them and have them.

    But again. Nerf Warden for pvp and they have 0 reason to exist in pve. And for as long as this idea of nerfs exists in forums... no good will be done.
    I can't do this anymore. Every small ... petit change that went against any semblance of sense has snowballed into an avalanche of (Penn & Teller:) Bulls...!

    Gods, bless me with patience.
  • Firstmep
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    I think most of the comments ae missing the point. This is not a buff Warden thread nor it is a a nerf Templar thread. I used the Warden example as I mainly play Magicka Warden and mostly for PvP. This is just the class and situations I'm most familiar with.

    Point is, the changes which are coming the new SBE system are just too extreme to ignore in terms of Class balance.

    I think they want to see how classes perform with the new system.
    I'm really hoping that this the last of their standardization patches, and we can start to see some meaningful changes like updating useless passives.
  • JinMori
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    If they nerf these buffs, then they should redirect the damage and defense etc.. back to the specs.
  • Xebov
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    Classes need a balance pass, but not right now. This update changes alot of things, but total impact on the game is still unclear and changing to many things at once blur the impact of individual changes.

    Changes like these need time to settle in to see how the game changes and how players adapt. Most of the balance feedback given during PTS cycles isnt based on testing and tinkering. Its solely based on theories that are born out of patch notes but that lack evidence and testing needed to proof them.
    olsborg wrote: »
    Warden and Necro is/was so f OP and p2w its a joke. They got indirectly nerfed hardest because of the buff changes, god forbid zos actually would nerf them directly, but they wouldnt touch their cash cows.

    You can buy a Greymoore standard edition for 20€ that contains the base game and all chapters, including the classes. Its hard to make a solid argument about something being P2W and a "cash cow" when its just cheap. What you do is just disqualify your own opinion. With such, easy to debunk, statements you imply that your feedback is based on dislike for something rather than on actual care about balance.

  • Lughlongarm
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    Xebov wrote: »
    Classes need a balance pass, but not right now. This update changes alot of things, but total impact on the game is still unclear and changing to many things at once blur the impact of individual changes.

    Changes like these need time to settle in to see how the game changes and how players adapt. Most of the balance feedback given during PTS cycles isnt based on testing and tinkering. Its solely based on theories that are born out of patch notes but that lack evidence and testing needed to proof them.
    olsborg wrote: »
    Warden and Necro is/was so f OP and p2w its a joke. They got indirectly nerfed hardest because of the buff changes, god forbid zos actually would nerf them directly, but they wouldnt touch their cash cows.

    You can buy a Greymoore standard edition for 20€ that contains the base game and all chapters, including the classes. Its hard to make a solid argument about something being P2W and a "cash cow" when its just cheap. What you do is just disqualify your own opinion. With such, easy to debunk, statements you imply that your feedback is based on dislike for something rather than on actual care about balance.

    I agree that perhaps this is not the best time to tune every single skill or passive that may have been effected by the change, but there are some big ones that stands out.

    -Notice the change they made for the Necro ulti, to negate the nerf to Major Vulnerability.

    Permafrost is another skill that should have been looked at. The whole concept of the ulti used to be about the AOE damage mitigation. The power of the damage mitigation was the reason this ulti got ripped out its original damage and CC capability. After this change the value of major protection is no more impactful enough to justify this ulti current cost the the low power of the ulti's other aspects. There is a reason why the "Ironblood" set had been adjusted as well.

    I'm sure there are more skills like that on other classes. Reviewing the effected ulties is a good place to start even for the upcoming patch.
    Edited by Lughlongarm on September 27, 2020 12:27PM
  • Koubo
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    Xebov wrote: »
    Classes need a balance pass, but not right now. This update changes alot of things, but total impact on the game is still unclear and changing to many things at once blur the impact of individual changes.

    Changes like these need time to settle in to see how the game changes and how players adapt. Most of the balance feedback given during PTS cycles isnt based on testing and tinkering. Its solely based on theories that are born out of patch notes but that lack evidence and testing needed to proof them.

    I see your point, and kinda agree. However, we ask last PTS to not change templars like they did because it would kill them even more than they allready are in PvP (mostly BackLash and BurningLight's change here. RoR is another topic but the result is the same)
    What happened? Nothing. They didn't even acknowledge us. We hoped for a bone this patch but again, nothing. For how long the class is going to be in that state?

    I know i'm only talking about templars and i know other classes have their own issue. I'm not arguing about who is the worse :(
  • Recapitated
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    Atherakhia wrote: »
    Mending having their values dramatically reduced, do skills that also cast Prot and Mending still need to be such short durations when the buffs are so trivial?

    I would rather frag shield get short-term major and minor mending (24% increased healing next patch) so I have to use it intelligently rather than a long and somewhat weak healing buff.
  • Atherakhia
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    Atherakhia wrote: »
    Mending having their values dramatically reduced, do skills that also cast Prot and Mending still need to be such short durations when the buffs are so trivial?

    I would rather frag shield get short-term major and minor mending (24% increased healing next patch) so I have to use it intelligently rather than a long and somewhat weak healing buff.

    Which is fine too. I'm only saying that a lot of the 'overpowered' skills that applied things like Major Protection and Major Mending were designed to have short durations to keep them in check. Now that the buffs themselves are so trivial, the skills that apply them need to be reviewed or the buffs should be looked at closer. Especially when those skills aren't limited to one spec that may or may not be overperforming right now (like Stam Necro) but is used by other specs within the class that are not performing well (like Mag Necro).
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