So ZOS any word on if original hairstyles and adorments will become gender neutral?

barney2525

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Umm how is hairstyles political exactly? I didn't know the length of ones hair was a political matter. You do realise men can grow long hair and women can have short hair right? How exactly does the length of ones hair devalue a gender? I'm a guy with long hair in the real world. It's not political at all.

Men can grow long hair?

Sure wish you woulda told the hair that Used to be on top of my head, but went on a permanent vacation to Disneyworld many moons ago.

ZaroktheImmortal

barney2525 wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Umm how is hairstyles political exactly? I didn't know the length of ones hair was a political matter. You do realise men can grow long hair and women can have short hair right? How exactly does the length of ones hair devalue a gender? I'm a guy with long hair in the real world. It's not political at all.

Men can grow long hair?

Sure wish you woulda told the hair that Used to be on top of my head, but went on a permanent vacation to Disneyworld many moons ago.

Oh dear.....someone needs to tell it that its used up all its vacation time.

On a serious note I am glad I still have all my hair.....

ZaroktheImmortal

Although my hairline has gone back as I've gotten older

ZaroktheImmortal

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Also on the subject of the servers I mean...would it really be that hard to change them from gender locked? I mean out of all the changes they could do I'm not expert but that one seems like one of the easiest and we all know they're going to keep adding new content and they're planning on releasing new items. How hard would it really be to change it so both genders can have same hair and adornments?

This may not be as easy as flipping a switch.

I know in most games (like the Sims, or even other TES games) the female/male models do have different head shapes, so you would need to change the hair mesh so it's not clipping/floating. It's the same reason that they don't have Argonian/Khajiit morphs for everything - you'd have to do a remodel to get them to fit. I remember having a hard time in Oblivion trying to find a good hair for my Orc since they had different head shapes and couldn't wear normal styles...and all of the custom styles were built for humans/elves.

Now some might work well enough that no remodel is needed, but there's no guarantee they all would.

The newer hair styles are actually several models: a female and a male mesh for humans, and then two additional each if they're adding equivalent styles for the beast races. That means if the model doesn't already exist (which it doesn't for most of the basegame styles), it'll be a bit of a project to remake all of them. It's the same idea as the costumes in game having different shapes whether a male or female wear them. Look at a character from the side and notice the model is shaped differently:


Some parts of the model (like earrings) are attached to certain bones, but you can't easily tell a clothing item to follow body contours without remodelling it.

The adornments are also similar in that they'd need to place them differently so the bones in the eyebrows/ears could have the default location. They're much smaller, so just flipping it over and then checking the location would be all you need to do, but it isn't just flipping a switch and done.

Maybe not but still I mean they're still adding new content new mounts new dlc new housing outfits etc. I'm sure it won't be any more of a drain of resources than any of this and I doubt them not doing this will get the game fixed any faster cause well....that's not something I'm holding my breath on. And it might encourage more to buy the hair and adornment packs so ZOS has that.

MrGhosty

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Also on the subject of the servers I mean...would it really be that hard to change them from gender locked? I mean out of all the changes they could do I'm not expert but that one seems like one of the easiest and we all know they're going to keep adding new content and they're planning on releasing new items. How hard would it really be to change it so both genders can have same hair and adornments?

This may not be as easy as flipping a switch.

I know in most games (like the Sims, or even other TES games) the female/male models do have different head shapes, so you would need to change the hair mesh so it's not clipping/floating. It's the same reason that they don't have Argonian/Khajiit morphs for everything - you'd have to do a remodel to get them to fit. I remember having a hard time in Oblivion trying to find a good hair for my Orc since they had different head shapes and couldn't wear normal styles...and all of the custom styles were built for humans/elves.

Now some might work well enough that no remodel is needed, but there's no guarantee they all would.

The newer hair styles are actually several models: a female and a male mesh for humans, and then two additional each if they're adding equivalent styles for the beast races. That means if the model doesn't already exist (which it doesn't for most of the basegame styles), it'll be a bit of a project to remake all of them. It's the same idea as the costumes in game having different shapes whether a male or female wear them. Look at a character from the side and notice the model is shaped differently:


Some parts of the model (like earrings) are attached to certain bones, but you can't easily tell a clothing item to follow body contours without remodelling it.

The adornments are also similar in that they'd need to place them differently so the bones in the eyebrows/ears could have the default location. They're much smaller, so just flipping it over and then checking the location would be all you need to do, but it isn't just flipping a switch and done.

Maybe not but still I mean they're still adding new content new mounts new dlc new housing outfits etc. I'm sure it won't be any more of a drain of resources than any of this and I doubt them not doing this will get the game fixed any faster cause well....that's not something I'm holding my breath on. And it might encourage more to buy the hair and adornment packs so ZOS has that.

I can't speak to the ZOS workflow, but I'm sure it just comes down to cost vs reward. I do wish that more items were unlocked as I'd love to use some of the Khajiit facial hairs on my men and mer toons. I really have never cared what other people do with their characters and I see no reason to start now. Hair and Adornments for everyone!

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

Since someone brought it up, it shouldn't matter really the cost vs reward... its a common request, and if they care about their customers/players, they would oblige. They get plenty of money from scam crates, so surely, they should be putting some of that back into the game, to improve performance, add more content and features, etc. instead of just lining someones pocket.

I also highly doubt that the team that works on cosmetics is the same team in charge of improving performance. But what do I know?

Fuzzybrick

(sorry I only read OP) but I couldn't agree more with you, I'd love to build a Toon and model him after one of Emporio Ivankov's newkama pirates in One Piece!

Minyassa

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Also on the subject of the servers I mean...would it really be that hard to change them from gender locked? I mean out of all the changes they could do I'm not expert but that one seems like one of the easiest and we all know they're going to keep adding new content and they're planning on releasing new items. How hard would it really be to change it so both genders can have same hair and adornments?

This may not be as easy as flipping a switch.

I know in most games (like the Sims, or even other TES games) the female/male models do have different head shapes, so you would need to change the hair mesh so it's not clipping/floating. It's the same reason that they don't have Argonian/Khajiit morphs for everything - you'd have to do a remodel to get them to fit. I remember having a hard time in Oblivion trying to find a good hair for my Orc since they had different head shapes and couldn't wear normal styles...and all of the custom styles were built for humans/elves.

Now some might work well enough that no remodel is needed, but there's no guarantee they all would.

The newer hair styles are actually several models: a female and a male mesh for humans, and then two additional each if they're adding equivalent styles for the beast races. That means if the model doesn't already exist (which it doesn't for most of the basegame styles), it'll be a bit of a project to remake all of them. It's the same idea as the costumes in game having different shapes whether a male or female wear them. Look at a character from the side and notice the model is shaped differently:


Some parts of the model (like earrings) are attached to certain bones, but you can't easily tell a clothing item to follow body contours without remodelling it.

The adornments are also similar in that they'd need to place them differently so the bones in the eyebrows/ears could have the default location. They're much smaller, so just flipping it over and then checking the location would be all you need to do, but it isn't just flipping a switch and done.

I work with 3d modeling and texturing for a living. In using pre-existing hair models with pre-existing figure models that have different dimensions, you can create a macro for reshaping the skull cap to which the rest of the hair model is attached. So really they would just have to refit one female hair to one male head, and one male hair to one female head, and then go through and convert each one or even do a batch conversion depending on their software. My hair refits take a grand total of up to ten minutes if I'm being super picky, and then once I've created a macro to convert skullcaps, a millisecond to click on the macro to convert a new hair. So this is a task that would take hours...but not weeks, or even a lot of effort. They really need to just convert the existing hairstyles to whichever gender model they don't fit, and release it as a new free pack to download from the crown store. I should think after all the time and effort they sink into stuff that causes stress and decreases fun in the game, they would be eager to do something fairly quick and easy that would make a lot of people extremely happy. The ROI on this is high.

DMuehlhausen

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Umm how is hairstyles political exactly? I didn't know the length of ones hair was a political matter. You do realise men can grow long hair and women can have short hair right? How exactly does the length of ones hair devalue a gender? I'm a guy with long hair in the real world. It's not political at all.

I mean if you don't know the answer to this you obviously haven't been following American politics recently...

Giraffon

I doubt they'd lose customers over making the hair styles available to either gender. It doesn't hurt anything.

Syldras

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

I mean if you don't know the answer to this you obviously haven't been following American politics recently...

I know there are a few countries on this world where you are only allowed certain hairstyles according to your gender (you may choose your hairstyle from a chart - not joking), but the last time I checked the USA didn't belong to those...

ZaroktheImmortal

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Amunari wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Umm how is hairstyles political exactly? I didn't know the length of ones hair was a political matter. You do realise men can grow long hair and women can have short hair right? How exactly does the length of ones hair devalue a gender? I'm a guy with long hair in the real world. It's not political at all.

I mean if you don't know the answer to this you obviously haven't been following American politics recently...

Well, I'm not American so there is that.

Syldras

ZaroktheImmortal wrote: »

Well, I'm not American so there is that.

If it's that bad now in the USA (which I actually don't believe...), probably we should be happy about living elsewhere?! No one here policing our hair Honestly, I think saying it's a policital matter in the USA is highly exaggerated.

Slyclone

I believe video games should remain video games. Anyone who can't hold the pint should not be in the pub. That goes for all aspects of the fantasy within.

Sick of this debate, frankly.

jefalaska_ESO

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

I mean if you don't know the answer to this you obviously haven't been following American politics recently...

I live in America, and follow the political issues, but not once in ANY discussion of gender politics have I heard ANYONE mention hairstyle as relevant to the topic.

I am 42 year old woman. For most of my life, I've worn my hair in a style very close to Short Imperial. Not to make any sort of statement, but because I am a down-to-earth, practical sort of person. I don't like hair in my face, I don't like to waste time styling it, I don't like the feel of it on my neck. It has nothing to do with Gender, Sexuality, Politics, or Societal Bias. It is 100% my personal preference.

Conversely, my husband of 17 years has hair that reaches his buttocks. Again, it has nothing to do with Gender, Sexuality, Politics, or Societal Bias. He just likes the feel of having long hair.

I personally really want to see Short Imperial style made available to women. I have seen it on female NPCs. I would also like Short Parted Crop to be made available to males. I have a pretty-boy character that I'd like to put it on. All the styles should be fully available to both genders.

Minyassa wrote: »

I work with 3d modeling and texturing for a living. In using pre-existing hair models with pre-existing figure models that have different dimensions, you can create a macro for reshaping the skull cap to which the rest of the hair model is attached. So really they would just have to refit one female hair to one male head, and one male hair to one female head, and then go through and convert each one or even do a batch conversion depending on their software. My hair refits take a grand total of up to ten minutes if I'm being super picky, and then once I've created a macro to convert skullcaps, a millisecond to click on the macro to convert a new hair. So this is a task that would take hours...but not weeks, or even a lot of effort. They really need to just convert the existing hairstyles to whichever gender model they don't fit, and release it as a new free pack to download from the crown store. I should think after all the time and effort they sink into stuff that causes stress and decreases fun in the game, they would be eager to do something fairly quick and easy that would make a lot of people extremely happy. The ROI on this is high.

Just out of curiosity, Minyassa... as I mentioned above I have seen female NPCs wearing male styles like the Short Imperial. I don't know anything about modeling, but I would assume this means that style has already been adjusted to a female model? If so, what would be stopping them from transferring that to Player Character models? If not, can you explain how it works? Thank for your time and knowledge, by the way.

ApostateHobo

Come on zos it's 2021 give us gender neutral adornments and hair already!

deleted220717-003304

I'd also really like all the hairstyles to be gender-neutral; for the most part there's no reason for them not to be. There's some male-pattern baldness, sure, and some female styles are frilly, but people will cope.

But that aside, I don't understand why the male "center-part long" shouldn't be gender-neutral, for example. And all the shorter male ponytails. Let me make a female character with longer hair but still practical and not taking hours in the court salon like some of them. And short/medium hair that's sensible and not an edgy mohawk style. The unruly bangs are a step in the right direction. On the other hand, some of the female styles, especially ponytails etc., make perfect sense for male characters, too, and are similar to what's already there. It's not like we don't already have long hair for them. I'd just like the same available for either gender.

AlienMagi

Yes please. Male haircuts are really lacking.

volkeswagon

I didn't realize they were gender restricted. Guys can wear dresses so why not. Please don't make this about politics cause it isn't. It's just a game.

Sylvermynx

volkeswagon wrote: »

I didn't realize they were gender restricted. Guys can wear dresses so why not. Please don't make this about politics cause it isn't. It's just a game.

With this thread, that ship has sailed.

Mettaricana

I'm trans and quite pissed how restricted this game is on the simplest things like the fact i can't use eyelashes on males and nose rings on females or the fact zeira in the theives guild questline has a male only haircut and when i purchased the hair pack to my dismay its still gender locked... obviously it doesn't require a model tweak as she's wearing it plain as day. But we still cant wear it. Not to mention alot of lipsticks and facial options are also heavily gender locked. Also can we get a body amd face hairless option for male characters shocking truth not all men have luxurious beards and dense 5 o'clock shadow add it under body markings or have another tab for it. While we're at it can you break eyelashes and horns out of the same category why should my orc have to decide between mascara or fivehead horns same for my bosmer horns look great your dumb idea to categorize it as facial hair dumb. Need an eyes tab for stuff like eyelashes , upper head tab for horns and the like,lower head tab for beards and assorted facial hairs. Pull your head out of the crownstore"s butthole and click a few check boxes and let us do what we want... can redo the same skill line 20 times for free but not a hair style.

Sylvermynx

@Mettaricana - I thought I had used the eyelashes on males in the past. That comes with the barbarian beauty pack, so I might be wrong. I'll get back in game to check.

Okay, just checked - yes, you can use the Dark Emphasis eyelashes on males. However, if you do, you don't get to use a beard. And I prefer my guys bearded....

Mettaricana

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@Mettaricana - I thought I had used the eyelashes on males in the past. That comes with the barbarian beauty pack, so I might be wrong. I'll get back in game to check.

Okay, just checked - yes, you can use the Dark Emphasis eyelashes on males. However, if you do, you don't get to use a beard. And I prefer my guys bearded....

My mistake lol but yeah kinda weird that beings of tamiral can't have eyelashes and beard on a single face. Or why male has the only bullring nose accessory as far as humanoid and elven races.