Is this the time to split pve/pvp abilities/effects?

Nemesis7884

I know ZOS really doesn't want to do this due to work load (I wonder however how gw2 can manage to do this with a lot more skill combinations and a much smaller team / budget); would a solution to the cyrodiil problem be that skills have different / adjusted effects in pve and pvp?

Yes it creates more work for ZOS but I believe it would fix a LOT of headaches we have been having so far with balancing changes that try to balance everything at the same time and never made anyone happy.... ?

SirAndy

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Is this the time to split pve/pvp abilities/effects?

Yes ...

Guyle

No, it is long long long overdue

idk

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

I know ZOS really doesn't want to do this due to work load

It seems to have nothing to do with the workload and more to do with that Zos does not want us to have to learn combat all over again when going from PvE to PvP and back again. They have clearly stated they want skills to perform in the same manner for that specific reason. While battle spirit reduces the damage and healing our skills do it does not change what the skill does.

I get that from the specific words Zos has stated before. Since this whole budge reason seems to be an assumption I will ask, what is the source of the information this is about the budget?

Edit: I am not arguing about balancing PvE separate from PvP, just questioning the source of the information that this is about the budget.

Skullstachio

To be fair, it has been overdue since day 1, Everytime one problem gets solved in either PvE or PvP, solve one and it creates a problem in the other which results in complaints or nerf threads and more.

Hapexamendios

⬆️

Dusk_Coven

The AoE test they intend to do, which they seem to be able to contain in Cyrodiil only, shows this is clearly possible if not before, then definitely now.

So they better start doing it.

Tanis-Stormbinder

Should have been done since day one!

Nemesis7884

idk wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

I know ZOS really doesn't want to do this due to work load

It seems to have nothing to do with the workload and more to do with that Zos does not want us to have to learn combat all over again when going from PvE to PvP and back again. They have clearly stated they want skills to perform in the same manner for that specific reason. While battle spirit reduces the damage and healing our skills do it does not change what the skill does.

I get that from the specific words Zos has stated before. Since this whole budge reason seems to be an assumption I will ask, what is the source of the information this is about the budget?

Edit: I am not arguing about balancing PvE separate from PvP, just questioning the source of the information that this is about the budget.

But I feel this is a fallacy and mute point in that

a) there is a huge learning curve moving from pve to pvp anyhow because there are no "entry" pvp modes

b) you use different skills / morphs that work differently and use them in different scenarios in pvp vs pve anyhow

Cireous

God, please, yes.

Specifically, make it so PVE skills (and set procs) hit all allies instead of just group members. You know, so I can sleep at night again, knowing I can sashay all over the Overland, splashing healing love everywhere, without a single care.

Oh, and this cool down thing on AOE's? On nearly every one of my healing skills? Seriously? When performance has NEVER been a problem in the content I play (not in the Overland and not in dungeons)?

No, no, no, no. no. F. NO.

I feel like a small child who has a weird fixation on their favorite misshapen toy, drags it around everywhere with them, and looks adorable doing it. And you've taken the toy and are smashing it against the wall to see if you can make it look right again. You're literally killing my toy as I watch in horror.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Should have been like that since day one. We wouldn't be in the mess we're in today if they were balanced differently from the jump.

With the proposed changes to AoEs in cyrodiil its gonna have to happen. A lot of abilities are going to have to be reworked to function properly and major changes like that could have huge ramifications in PvE.

idk

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

I know ZOS really doesn't want to do this due to work load

It seems to have nothing to do with the workload and more to do with that Zos does not want us to have to learn combat all over again when going from PvE to PvP and back again. They have clearly stated they want skills to perform in the same manner for that specific reason. While battle spirit reduces the damage and healing our skills do it does not change what the skill does.

I get that from the specific words Zos has stated before. Since this whole budge reason seems to be an assumption I will ask, what is the source of the information this is about the budget?

Edit: I am not arguing about balancing PvE separate from PvP, just questioning the source of the information that this is about the budget.

But I feel this is a fallacy and mute point in that

a) there is a huge learning curve moving from pve to pvp anyhow because there are no "entry" pvp modes

b) you use different skills / morphs that work differently and use them in different scenarios in pvp vs pve anyhow

I agree we approach PvP different than we approach PvE but you are saying Zos has made the decision to keep skills performing the same because of a conscious choice to keep the budget low. I have, and am again, asking for your basis on that. I provided were the reason for my statement came from regardless if some assume it is a fallacy or not.

scottii

ZOS logic, oh that's a great idea!

Literally the only MMO who does not do this.

Karmanorway

Yes, it was time 6 years ago😊

Nemesis7884

idk wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

I know ZOS really doesn't want to do this due to work load

It seems to have nothing to do with the workload and more to do with that Zos does not want us to have to learn combat all over again when going from PvE to PvP and back again. They have clearly stated they want skills to perform in the same manner for that specific reason. While battle spirit reduces the damage and healing our skills do it does not change what the skill does.

I get that from the specific words Zos has stated before. Since this whole budge reason seems to be an assumption I will ask, what is the source of the information this is about the budget?

Edit: I am not arguing about balancing PvE separate from PvP, just questioning the source of the information that this is about the budget.

But I feel this is a fallacy and mute point in that

a) there is a huge learning curve moving from pve to pvp anyhow because there are no "entry" pvp modes

b) you use different skills / morphs that work differently and use them in different scenarios in pvp vs pve anyhow

I agree we approach PvP different than we approach PvE but you are saying Zos has made the decision to keep skills performing the same because of a conscious choice to keep the budget low. I have, and am again, asking for your basis on that. I provided were the reason for my statement came from regardless if some assume it is a fallacy or not.

Didnt want to disagree on that point...its just what has been said by others and content creators due to the size of the combat team but I dont know.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

It's been overdue since the very first moment of the conception of ESO.

Grey17

I said the same in Beta. Nothing was done then, nothing will be done now.

It was a fundamental financial decision made six years ago, and now it is far far too late to implement, regardless of how much everyone would want it.

Gythral

About 7yrs too late, as this change was needed during alpha...

zaria

Grey17 wrote: »

I said the same in Beta. Nothing was done then, nothing will be done now.

It was a fundamental financial decision made six years ago, and now it is far far too late to implement, regardless of how much everyone would want it.

Well its an financial inventive to do it rather than putting cool down on AoE in PvE.
Can you even imagine puging an dungeon after we suddenly get cooldown on AoE?
Just doing an public dungeon will be an tedious and boring event, only use AoE on the mobs there.

Yes balancing will be harder, so that leave stuff more unbalanced its not like they have much success here anyway.
Hamfisted random strikes is more like it.

Cadbury

Yes, but that's not gonna happen.

BlueRaven

I get they want the world to feel consistent, but they should be different. Giving races pvp only abilities is just bad design.

Coatmagic

Turning things on and off in cyro is in no way a problem as they have done it several times over the years with various things.
Causing certain set effects/skills to not work in cyro should have been implemented on day one, period.

1) PvP and PvE should never have been implemented this way to begin with.

2) Senche's already screwed due to whomever's fantastic idea it was to put all the flashy effects on top of everything else with no way at all to shut them off xD

honey_badger82

I get that they don't want players to have to learn two separate combat styles for PvP and PvE but with players having different characters that are not all the same we do this very same thing every time we play another one of our characters. For example I have to use skills and press buttons in a different order in my bow/bow stamden than I do in my 2h/2h stamplar.

With that being said, if they really feel so strongly on keeping skills functioning the same in PvP as they do in PvE (so that specific character your playing functions the same doing either) then they cannot keep making changes that drastically change the other due to issues with the one, it just doesn't make sense or is fair in any way.

Not everyone does PvP, I myself only do it when I must (tel var stones, events for tickets, battlegrounds for style pages/ level grinding to 50) and we should not suffer changes due to PvP trolls. The same goes for PvP, there are players who that is all they do, they shouldn't suffer a nerf that wasn't hurting PvP because you deem it an exploit in PvE (New Moons nerf is a good example of this. The set doesn't break PvP for the players using it yet you are nerfing it over a PvE trial "exploit").

BigBragg

Pass from me. It would create more hurdles for new players trying to enter PvP.

I think there are other things that can be looked at well before this. Like creating just one PvP environment and one PvE environment in a simpler way with the existing systems. This can be accomplished by simply removing the current Champion Point systems effects from all PvP. Right now they are trying to balance three different environments, the true Three Banners war. Combined with Battle Spirit, this will allow them ZOS team to alter how impactful things are in PvP, while providing CP to make up the difference in PvE. It would have the added benefit of actually reducing the developers work load.

Edit:

p.s. It would also reduce calculations on the PvP servers.

BazOfWar

It's done in other mmo's, can't understand why it's never been done here.

Dusk_Coven

Karmanorway wrote: »

Yes, it was time 6 years ago😊

Except they thought that ginormous adjustments in Battle Spirit would be enough to hold PvP together.
ZOS Combat decisions are done with duct tape and prayers.

If the current AoE changes actually do go through, they will audit all classes and make changes. Rich Lambert already said so in his post that it WILL happen if their investigation confirms their suspicions.

They are going to do that even though that's not the real problem. They need to have leagues to isolate extreme builds and players whose gameplay is too far away from what's intended or support. Isolate them from everyone else so that issues with performance, gameplay, or otherwise don't affect other people who are not having any of those issues don't get hit by changes that are unnecessary for them.
Then separately examine the gameplay in those leagues to decide what they want to do when players push the system that far.

It's not even hard to do conceptually. They just need to implement Leagues for PvP, which they should have done anyway from day one.
http://gq-game-mods.blogspot.com/2020/07/what-everyone-already-knew-exploiting-destroys-the-game-for-everyone.html