Please reconsider changing CORE GAME MECHANICS to combat lag

susmitds

This is in response to https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539136/update-on-cyrodiil-performance-upcoming-aoe-tests#latest

I can understand lag being frustrating to play in and how it spoils the gameplay experience. But, changing how the core gameplay works to combat lag is like burning the house down to kill a rat.

1. Hard cooldowns will be a massive step in the wrong direction. The very appeal of ESO over other games is its active gameplay design. It is the main reason why inspite of all the lag and performance issues we still stick with ESO. But, over the last few updates we have seen certain changes directly removing parts of the active gameplay experience. Any sort of hard cooldown will be the final nail in the coffin to many veteran players.
2. AoE spam is not a new thing in PvP. There were AoE spam metas since the inception of the game. Steel Tornado was the defacto stamina spammable prior to Thieves Guild patch which nerfed its range from 15m to 9m. Bombard was used as a spammable by a lot of ballgroups before Shadow of the Hist patch nerfed it's root.
3. A significant number of skills in the game have inbuilt AoE checks in them, even though they are not essentially used for AoE playstyles. Examples would be any ground cast skill including single-target skills like Trap Beast, any splash damage skills like Silver Shards, any skills with secondary buffs/effects on allies etc.
4. AoE makes up the core gameplay loop of certain classes. Out of 12 subclasses considering stamina and magicka separately, 11 of them depends significantly on skills with AoE effects. For example, the class kit of Templar entirely revolves around spamming AoEs, for both offense and defense. While other classes like Warden, Necro, StamSorc don't necessarily spam AoEs like Templar, a significant number of their class skills have AoE checks in-game.
5. It will be very bad for class identity going forward. Right now, there is only one subclass which can perform fully with a purely single-target skill setup, that being Stamina Nightblade. It is infact a core part of its identity as the premium single-target hard hitter. That would immediately if these changes are worked on, Stamblade will become relatively OP and hence nerfed again. However at the same time, if all other classes are converted to be viable pure single target classes, Stamblade will lose the last remaining parts of its identity.
6. A lot of AoE skills have single-target versions already. For example, Flurry is literally the single-target version of Jabs. Hence making Jabs single-target would make it virtually identical to Flurry. What I am trying is that trying to convert AoE based class kits to single-target variants would cause identity collision with existing single-target skills.

For these reason, I feel any sort of AoE cooldowns would be a bad idea. I would like to make it clear that I am not against AoE rework like changing the cost of AoE abilities as well as their effective power budget/opportunity costs. But care must be taken not to enforce any change that affects the core gameplay experience as a whole or affects the precarious class identities established in the game.

Daemons_Bane

susmitds wrote: »

The very appeal of ESO over other game is its active gameplay design. It is the main reason why inspite of all the lag and performance issues we still stick with ESO.

And here I was, thinking I stuck around because I love the world and the lore.. well, good thing that people are around to tell me why I keep playing

susmitds

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

The very appeal of ESO over other game is its active gameplay design. It is the main reason why inspite of all the lag and performance issues we still stick with ESO.

And here I was, thinking I stuck around because I love the world and the lore.. well, good thing that people are around to tell me why I keep playing

If that is your reason to play which is perfectly fine, any said changes to combat or their lack of should not affect you though.

ZarkingFrued

Hard cooldowns=uninstalled.

Rydik

Balancing game on a base of unwillingness to spend money on servers - is the way to the end...

Dovakhan

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Hard cooldowns=uninstalled.

Like if any would miss groups which are basically invincible without another such group to fight them. I ran thou one of them a while ago, and was able to observe them for a long time thanks to my stealth character. It was basically a cheap killing spree, even against other (less organized) groups.

Bye bye, and good riddance.

Rydik wrote: »

Balancing game on a base of unwillingness to spend money on servers - is the way to the end...

It's called "killing two birds with one stone", which is OK in my book.

Dovakhan

Edit: doublepost

VaranisArano

Part of the problem is that Cyrodiil's gameplay is designed to use AOEs.

Need to heal group members? Use an AOE.
Need to damage a group of players in a zone designed for large fights? Use an AOE.

You don't have to be in a ball group to be using AOEs frequently.

Dovakhan

VaranisArano wrote: »

Part of the problem is that Cyrodiil's gameplay is designed to use AOEs.

Need to heal group members? Use an AOE.
Need to damage a group of players in a zone designed for large fights? Use an AOE.

You don't have to be in a ball group to be using AOEs frequently.

And the thing with AoE's is that they better be inmediate effect, or they'll completely miss half of their effect cos people in PvP move like hamsters on coffee.

Frankly, I've had more success healing with Radiating Regen than with any AoE, unless my team is stuck bashing someone they just snared.

Oh, and of course, extremely well-compenetrated teams like ball groups are the exception. How convenient.

zaria

susmitds wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

The very appeal of ESO over other game is its active gameplay design. It is the main reason why inspite of all the lag and performance issues we still stick with ESO.

And here I was, thinking I stuck around because I love the world and the lore.. well, good thing that people are around to tell me why I keep playing

If that is your reason to play which is perfectly fine, any said changes to combat or their lack of should not affect you though.

Disagree, doing lots of delves for leveling alts trough summerset, for stamina it mostly hail, a shatter shot then spam steel tornado, in short I have cp 810 characters I do veteran trial with who need to change play style to not die in delves, no vigor will be disabled after steel tornado.
And yes done all the quests in ESO outside a few without quest zone markers I have not been able to track down
Destinations helps

Sarannah

Making combat one bar only, removes half the lag. And it makes the skills you choose alot more meaningful, while removing a large part of the player skillgap. Not to mention a lag player vs no-lag player gap.

Parasaurolophus

The AoE core has always been a big disaster for pvp. I don't know who might like it, but it's not right. I do not understand why the developers are only now paying attention to this, since it has long been required for the sake of balance. One of the reasons NB is the worst class for pvp is the lack of AoE.

redlink1979

Let's at least wait for the results of the test on live servers. As @ZOS_RichLambert wrote and as we know, players can make unique combinations of factors.

ZOS maybe have test bots in internal servers but bots will never behave like humans.

r3turn2s3nd3r

zaria wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

The very appeal of ESO over other game is its active gameplay design. It is the main reason why inspite of all the lag and performance issues we still stick with ESO.

And here I was, thinking I stuck around because I love the world and the lore.. well, good thing that people are around to tell me why I keep playing

If that is your reason to play which is perfectly fine, any said changes to combat or their lack of should not affect you though.

Disagree, doing lots of delves for leveling alts trough summerset, for stamina it mostly hail, a shatter shot then spam steel tornado, in short I have cp 810 characters I do veteran trial with who need to change play style to not die in delves, no vigor will be disabled after steel tornado.
And yes done all the quests in ESO outside a few without quest zone markers I have not been able to track down
Destinations helps

Where is your source stating this will affect PVE, is there an official statement on that? Asking seriously as the only legitimate statement I can find is from Rich's post:

"The first round of tests we are planning will focus on Area of Effect (AOE) abilities in Cyrodiil and will make it more difficult for AOE abilities to be the only abilities used, adjusting cooldown, cost and regen values of all AOEs (damage and healing).

Nirntrotter

This wouldn't be half as problematic if they did away with soft lock and made tab target a proper hard lock imho. Just let us actually hit what we're focussing, damnit.