I tried Cyrodiil last night

SickleCider

Wow. Wow. It's kind of awful, isn't it?

Disclaimer: I'm not upset about getting ganked or anything. I went in with a PVE build, avoided 1v1 encounters, got deleted several times and teabagged surprisingly only once. It's more or less what I expected. I actually felt like I contributed a fair amount, because I was able to quickly crunch up NPCs and capture resources.

I'm not feeling well today so I'll be doing this post in list format. I'll try to be succinct.

• Sieges and conquest. Good idea on paper, uninspired implementation. It's a lot of running between unnecessarily distant map points, all of which are identical to other like locations on the map. Kill some NPCs, some players, maybe break down a door, and stand on a flag. Rinse, repeat.
• There's nothing interesting to look at. The map is massive, empty, and the same structures are repeated. It feels very unfinished, or like it hasn't been updated since beta.
• I know part of that is on account of the performance. Mine wasn't that bad. I was in a less packed campaign. That being said, the frequent loading screens were a real pain in my patoot. There was about ten minutes where I had one every few feet I rode. I also had a long one when I first approached Bruma.
• Fights work out one of two ways. They're either really fast, because someone gets zerged down. (I felt a little dirty for being part of the zerg.) Or, they're worryingly long, because the person facing the zerg actually knows what they're doing and the zerg can't seem to drop them. This isn't necessarily a flaw in the design but on the players, but it's still pretty dumb.
• That situation with the transmute geodes is ridiculous. You either have to pace your AP gain or deal with an inventory nightmare. I was shocked at how quickly I accumulated Rewards for the Worthy (which was awesome!), but now I have to keep them in my mail or inventory for optimum transmutation crystal management. I don't understand why the geodes aren't bankable. I don't understand why there's a crystal cap. I don't understand any of this.
• Speaking of things I don't understand, critical resistance. I understand that players have oodles of critical damage (ahem, me), and I understand that it's smart to be resistant to it. What I don't understand is why critical damage is only a danger in PVP situations. The fact that there are armor traits and a CP star that are only relevant in PVP, and absolutely essential in PVP, vexes me. I don't know what it's adding.

I don't know, I just don't get it. I do feel sympathy for PVP players now, though.

Anyway, I'll probably go back, because I'm 5k AP away from Legionairy and it seems silly not to at least pop that rank. It would be nice to get to Legate and unlock that dye, but I don't know if I'm going to be able to maintain the interest. If you have something to say that might change my mind, I'll hear it!

EDIT: Lots of good points, suggestions, and interesting explanations made. Thanks, guys! I'll give it another shake.

LasrRed

Gear up properly and set your cp for pvp. You’ll have more fun that way.

SickleCider

@LasrRed Oh, I'm sure that would help and certainly wouldn't hurt. I'm sure a big part of the appeal is squaring off with other players, which you don't really get to do when you're just tooling around like I was.

Stx

I dont pvp very often, but when I do, the server performance turns me off from it. Its amazing to me how this game can be so old but they haven't spent the time to fix the performance.

Taleof2Cities

The "mini-load screens" are supposed to be getting fixed with Update 27, @Versispellis.

At least that's what the ZOS Engineering article says.

Hoping for the best ... but planning for something in-between.

Ilsabet

Versispellis wrote: »

What I don't understand is why critical damage is only a danger in PVP situations.

This one's an easy answer. Non-player enemies can't crit.


I'm not going to take it upon myself to try to persuade you one way or another, but I'm a PvE player who enjoys going to Cyrodiil and potatoing around. I actually prefer keep sieges, because they're clear objectives where people can work together, and they're either easy AP or fairly exciting battles where I can (generally) contribute without having to be the leetest kid on the block. I don't feel too bad about being a zergling, because teamwork makes the dream work. Or something.

Having a fast horse and Rapids will make getting around a lot easier, and just knowing how stuff works and where to show up helps a lot. It's also 100% more fun if you don't take it too seriously.

As far as the map, it's actually kind of fun to ride around and look for the little vignettes and NPCs scattered around that each tell their own little story. Maybe the terrain in between isn't that exciting, but you may have different tolerances for that than I do.

Also, speaking as someone who thought I'd never get to Legate Black and is now one rank away, don't lust after it too much if you're feeling burnt out after one night in Cyro. 30 million AP is a loooooong road.

Daffen

Try to get at least 2.5-3k crit resistance. Having 3k gives you around 50% crit mitigation meaning the base crit damage multiplier is negated. The reason crit resist is only worth in pvp is because mobs in PvE cant crit.

the1andonlyskwex

Ilsabet wrote: »

This one's an easy answer. Non-player enemies can't crit.

Daffen wrote: »

The reason crit resist is only worth in pvp is because mobs in PvE cant crit.

Maybe I'm dense, but I read the original question as "why can't NPC enemies crit?", which is a good question, in my opinion.

Guyle

I'll respond to your bullet points accordingly:

- The board quests are what they are - bland objective based missions. That said, there are several towns, including but not limited to the 3 obvious ones, which offer some more interesting story based quests. There are also random quest givers strewn about the entire map of Cyrodil, and you can pick up some good ole hunt some goblins or bandit style quests available from FG reps at one of your home bases.

- There is a lot more in Cyrodil than you may initially realize. You can go see places from previous ES games like Cloudruler temple, Weynon Priory, and there is even a particular statue that you can encounter that is from another game. Do some exploring, it's a lot of empty space, but there are some interesting things out there.

- Load screens are a plague, which they have said they would get rid of in the past and didn't. They are saying it will be fixed in the upcoming patch, but seeing as how they've been saying improvements are coming, and then things are usually worse when the improvements arrive, this is probably gonna be status quo in Cyrodil forever.

- There's all ranges of skill, playstyles, and builds that come into account. Some ppl build like glass canons, and get zerged down instantly, others have tankier burst damage builds that can 1 v X for seemingly forever. Also, the fact that you can't even use you skills at times means fights can be lopsided. It is what it is.

- Everything in this game is designed to make inventory management a royal pain. It's the driving force behind selling ESO+ subs. That said, you have options for inventory mgmt, make some alts, have them hold onto geodes.

- I don't understand this statement.... you understand that critical resistance is important in PvP, and is necessary, but don't understand why it is so important and relevant in PvP? Well, for starters, no monster in PvE can crit against you, so crit resist is an absolute waste in PvE, and the damage modifier for crit damage is such that you can get mowed down pretty easily if you don't have any crit resist. Beyond that, I am not sure what you want to know.

SickleCider

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Ilsabet wrote: »

This one's an easy answer. Non-player enemies can't crit.

Daffen wrote: »

The reason crit resist is only worth in pvp is because mobs in PvE cant crit.

Maybe I'm dense, but I read the original question as "why can't NPC enemies crit?", which is a good question, in my opinion.

Yes, you're right, that was my question. I'm aware that NPC enemies don't crit. It's probably a scary notion to PVE players, the idea of NPC enemies critting, but I do wonder about the deliberate choice that's been made. Again, I'm just not sure what it's adding.

Thanks for all the answers, guys. I'll get some impen gear and see how close that gets me to the crit resist soft cap, and I'll try to look for the little things in the environment, pick up some quests, and look for some of those landmarks. Something about the experience is sticking in my head.

the1andonlyskwex

My guess as to why NPC enemies can't crit, by the way, is that some dev early in the game's lifecycle thought NPC crits randomly one-shotting people would cause too many players to rage quit. It's a little ironic now though, with the number of one-shot mechanics in dungeons these days.

Dojohoda

I hope you feel better soon.

Cyrodiil is generally more enjoyable on a full campaign because cyrodiil is about playing with and against others. The keeps and other buildings are simply where we start trouble and hope someone shows up. In a full campaign, more players are likely going to appear. We also fight in the field between keeps, at gates, on bridges, at resources, and sometimes in a barn or building. I play on both no-cp and the locked cp. Game performance is not perfect anywhere, but consistently better on the no-cp campaign. The locked cp campaign is mostly okay for me, it goes haywire sometimes. (pc-na)

Regarding those loading screens- here is a tip. After mounting, engage Autorun. Autorun has to be bound to a key to use. Autorun does not stop the screens, but when the screen is over, you will resume moving without that complete stop you get if you don't use autorun.

If you ever have time to explore, you will find some interesting scenes in cyrodiil. They are off the beaten path.

Guyle

Honestly, I think that the reason NPC enemies can't crit is because it injects too much RNG into the PvE side of the game. Pugging would be practically impossible, and it'd make an even wider gap between skilled players being able to complete content and newbs that don't understand why monsters are 1 shot critting them. We already have to deal with too many bugs and other strange factors in completing content, it'd suck that no death runs would be ruined because someone died from a crit.

ArchMikem

Reading OP is like looking in a mirror, I whole heartedly empathize with your experience, yet I've been going into Cyrodiil for a couple years and my Main StamBlade is a Praetorian Grade 2 atm.

Everything you've explained about Cyrodiil is 100% truth and It seems like it's never going to change, or else they would've done a PvP content update years ago after Imperial City, but PvP isn't where the money comes in. The PvE playerbase is much larger and they know it's the adventure zones, dungeons, and the Trials that draw in players and thus, revenue. Also collectibles and cosmetics via Crown Store. The only changes I remember ZOS doing to Cyrodiil are some edits to the Towns, making them capture points, as well as creating additional Outposts like Winter's, Harluns, and that other one on the West side who's name I forget cause the Pact never gets that far across the map...

LasrRed wrote: »

Gear up properly and set your cp for pvp. You’ll have more fun that way.

OP can learn overtime through experience to maximize the use of their PvE build though. Yeah playing a glass cannon in Cyrodiil is sometimes a nightmare but it's still possible and saves the time and resources creating a second set of PvP specific gear.

tsaescishoeshiner

Crits:

Player health is VERY low in PvP, and they can be killed very quickly. Being hit by 3 crits in a row, which is just RNG, can easily down a player that could have survived otherwise. So Crit resistance reduces your chance of being burst down by consecutive crits, reducing average damage from DoTs, and just increases your build's consistency. Consistency is so important in how chaotic and fast-paced ESO PvP can be. Without crit resistance, people would have to build tankier for RNG reasons.

ZOS made Impen less necessary in Update 26 by nerfing it and adding base Critical Resistance. Crit resistance offers some interesting build choices - for example, I only play all-Divines glass cannons in PvP : p Ideally with Shadow Stone & Minor Force.

Having crits in PvE would mean dying in vMA because you got bad RNG and got crit 3 times in a row. It would mean tanks dying from powerful heavy attacks critting. It would just require people to build tankier in order to deal with RNG, which IMO isn't that fun.

Sidenote, crit resistance works subtractively. So if someone deals 150% critical damage to someone with 10% crit resistance, they only deal 140% critical damage. Weirdly, this means that builds that focus on high crit damage (not high crit chance) do better against high-crit-resistance targets. If you only deal 120% critical damage to someone, an extra +10% critical damage is 10/120 extra % damage, as opposed to 10/150 against someone without it. Still less damage overall, but a higher damage increase. That's why I run a 200% Critical Damage build for no-CP PvP. Rev up that Shadow Stone!!

SickleCider

Thanks, guys. I think you all are probably right about the reasoning behind lack of crit in PVE, it'd be too frustrating for players. I don't mind the idea of critical damage, personally, as long as it was attached to some conditions you could control. (For example, to cite a game that's vastly different, Bloodborne has damage multipliers based on the actions you were performing when you got hit. It adds interesting things to consider in gameplay, like deciding whether it's worth the risk to perform a heavy attack in certain situations, or to consider when it's actually appropriate to dodge.) But, no crit really does streamline things.

I'll try a more populated campaign when I go back. Gray Host was full, and admittedly, it was a little late in the evening. I have a fully upgraded mount and rapids (legitimately earned, now!), unfortunately, I'm on console so I have no autorun toggle. No loadouts, either. I feel like loadouts would really make this all more convenient.

I'm sorry there hasn't been a significant content or performance upgrade in aeons. I didn't know how bad it was before.

Dojohoda wrote: »

I hope you feel better soon. [. . .]

Thank you!

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

[. . .] Sidenote, crit resistance works subtractively. So if someone deals 150% critical damage to someone with 10% crit resistance, they only deal 140% critical damage. Weirdly, this means that builds that focus on high crit damage (not high crit chance) do better against high-crit-resistance targets. If you only deal 120% critical damage to someone, an extra +10% critical damage is 10/120 extra % damage, as opposed to 10/150 against someone without it. Still less damage overall, but a higher damage increase. That's why I run a 200% Critical Damage build for no-CP PvP. Rev up that Shadow Stone!!

That's really interesting! Thank you for sharing that. It gives me some wicked ideas.

kargen27

"Sieges and conquest. Good idea on paper, uninspired implementation. It's a lot of running between unnecessarily distant map points, all of which are identical to other like locations on the map. Kill some NPCs, some players, maybe break down a door, and stand on a flag. Rinse, repeat."

This is better when not in an empty or close to empty campaign. The distance is there to introduce strategy to controlling the map. If the distances were shorter there would be no real point to cutting off keeps to allow superior numbers at other keeps.

The map was created with PvP in mind. Open spaces that are separated by choke points. Those choke points are usually where the fun battles take place. I've been in some incredible fights trying to control a bridge or a gate. There is still plenty of other things to do though. Yeah the PvE related content is spread out more but it is worth doing.

As others have suggested there is a lot of cool stuff to see. Often we miss it as we sprint from objective to objective.

SickleCider

kargen27 wrote: »

"Sieges and conquest. Good idea on paper, uninspired implementation. It's a lot of running between unnecessarily distant map points, all of which are identical to other like locations on the map. Kill some NPCs, some players, maybe break down a door, and stand on a flag. Rinse, repeat."

This is better when not in an empty or close to empty campaign. The distance is there to introduce strategy to controlling the map. If the distances were shorter there would be no real point to cutting off keeps to allow superior numbers at other keeps.

The map was created with PvP in mind. Open spaces that are separated by choke points. Those choke points are usually where the fun battles take place. I've been in some incredible fights trying to control a bridge or a gate. There is still plenty of other things to do though. Yeah the PvE related content is spread out more but it is worth doing.

As others have suggested there is a lot of cool stuff to see. Often we miss it as we sprint from objective to objective.

Oh, I see. Thank you for explaining the logistics. That makes the map make a ton more sense. I attributed too much of the vastness and emptiness to performance. I'll take a trip to a fuller campaign for PVP, and keep to the less populated ones to look for some of that PVE stuff.

Myrddin1357

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Crits:

Sidenote, crit resistance works subtractively. So if someone deals 150% critical damage to someone with 10% crit resistance, they only deal 140% critical damage. Weirdly, this means that builds that focus on high crit damage (not high crit chance) do better against high-crit-resistance targets. If you only deal 120% critical damage to someone, an extra +10% critical damage is 10/120 extra % damage, as opposed to 10/150 against someone without it. Still less damage overall, but a higher damage increase. That's why I run a 200% Critical Damage build for no-CP PvP. Rev up that Shadow Stone!!

How can 200 percent be achieved? Base is 50 percent and shadows is like 20 (with all divines). I know there are a few skills and armor that raise crit damage but those only raise it by about 10. How do you even get to 100 percent without CPs?

SickleCider

I misread something. Ignore this post! Carry on!

TequilaFire

We got you now, you are hooked!
Just wait till you group with some guildies or new friends that is what it is all about for me.

SickleCider

TequilaFire wrote: »

We got you now, you are hooked!
Just wait till you group with some guildies or new friends that is what it is all about for me.

Y'all comin' at me like Roadhog.

SickleCider

Okay, guys. I shifted some CP around, and I was able to put some into crit resist, and now I hit harder and I have more defense in PVE too. I'm still wearing divines. I'm not quite at the suggested soft cap of 2.5k resist (2,426). I'll see how badly I'm wanting for survivability when I get in there. I feel like I'm in a better place now, though.

tsaescishoeshiner

Myrddin1357 wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Crits:

Sidenote, crit resistance works subtractively. So if someone deals 150% critical damage to someone with 10% crit resistance, they only deal 140% critical damage. Weirdly, this means that builds that focus on high crit damage (not high crit chance) do better against high-crit-resistance targets. If you only deal 120% critical damage to someone, an extra +10% critical damage is 10/120 extra % damage, as opposed to 10/150 against someone without it. Still less damage overall, but a higher damage increase. That's why I run a 200% Critical Damage build for no-CP PvP. Rev up that Shadow Stone!!

How can 200 percent be achieved? Base is 50 percent and shadows is like 20 (with all divines). I know there are a few skills and armor that raise crit damage but those only raise it by about 10. How do you even get to 100 percent without CPs?

10% from Khajiit passive
10% from Templar passive
10% from Minor Force (Channeled Acceleration)
19% from Shadow Stone with 7 Divines pieces

So yes, only 199% Critical Damage ... sue me lol

Nightblade will be able to get an extra 10% next patch if the current Grim Focus buff goes through

A stam character could get 5% more by wearing Archer's Mind

itscompton

There are actually quite a few interesting little areas on the map. Unfortunately most of those places are out of the way when it comes to campaign objectives. For example I've always been EP so after 4 years of playing in Cyrodiil I was surprised to find a vast, lush forest way down in AD territory that I had never been in because there were no objectives nearby.

Aznarb

Eyyy what you speak about ?
Cyro is smooth, I go to Ebonpact from daggerfall to get my last skyshard, it took me only 25 loading screen.
(nop, it's not a random or exaggerating number, that the exacte number !)

But they said next patch will help to reduce/fixe this, so I'll wait and see when the patch hit (well a bit after cuz at every patch many people are around, so high server stress anyway).

doomette

itscompton wrote: »

There are actually quite a few interesting little areas on the map. Unfortunately most of those places are out of the way when it comes to campaign objectives. For example I've always been EP so after 4 years of playing in Cyrodiil I was surprised to find a vast, lush forest way down in AD territory that I had never been in because there were no objectives nearby.

I love the random things I’ve come across getting skyshards/lorebooks. Like the necromancer and his family 😬

Mayrael

Most of PvPers plays Cyrodiil for PvP - fighting is the main goal, everything else is just background. We can say the same about IC and BGs.

Grianasteri

I had not attempted to enter Cyro for some time, due to unplayable performance, load screens, lag, skills not fire, players rubber banding about the screen etc. Id tried a few times recently and it was still pointless.

But I was pleasantly surprised last night, although lag and load screens were still present, I was actually able to engage in some fun and productive game play, including around some quite large zerg combat - although inevitably the more folk on screen the greater the lag and I had to disengage eventually and look for less busy fights.

Personally I think Cyro was and remains a great idea in concept, its just that in practice I really don't think it works as intended or as well as it could with a rebuild, revamp, rework.

Cyro could remain, but I think some lesser played campaigns and BG game modes should be removed, and a new pvp environment introduced. I think an attack/defend concept would work really well and still allow the use of siege and castle mechanics already in place. I am thinking each side has a certain number of tickets... each death removes a ticket and so on, until either the defenders win or the attackers win - the attackers having to progress though walls or stages. Battlefield implemented this concept really well. World of Tanks has added this kind of game mode also. There are loads of examples. Its more fast passed and dynamic with clear goals for each team to work towards on mass.

Just thinking out loud.

redlink1979

Versispellis wrote: »

Wow. Wow. It's kind of awful, isn't it?

Welcome to Cyrodiil, mate

Iarao

Aznarb wrote: »

But they said next patch will help to reduce/fixe this, so I'll wait and see when the patch hit (well a bit after cuz at every patch many people are around, so high server stress anyway).

the problem is that zos needs better servers to handle the high server stress? other parts of the game are now starting to do the load screen thing every few feet. i think they just need better servers capable of actually serving what is needed.