The balancing problem (pvp) and what if it's the racial liabilities that are the cause of it all?

Khatou

I am asking myself this question more and more and having changed race for my NB stam I have already felt a blatant change...

Wouldn't the problem come from there before the class????

itscompton

Khatou wrote: »

I am asking myself this question more and more and having changed race for my NB stam I have already felt a blatant change...

Wouldn't the problem come from there before the class????

Simply, no. Any class can be any race if you don't mind which home alliance you are or you can buy the upgrade for any race any alliance if you do mind.
Some races may be better than others for certain classes/roles but at worst that just means most people choose the same 3-4 races depending on whether they are magic or stam based and it takes a bit of variety away from builds. For example most playing any magica class will choose Altmer or Breton as their strengths work with any DD magica class. But even if you choose Argonion or Nord you don't have to radically change how you play the class.
Classes on the other hand have completely different play-styles from one another with unique strengths and weaknesses and if they are not balanced correctly a class can dominate all others no matter what race the opposition might choose.

ShawnLaRock

Plus - the problem is the archaic engine.

S.

Dusk_Coven

When PvP needs "Battle Spirit", which involves HUGE adjustments like -60% healing... the underlying mechanics of PvP in ESO are complete nonsense to begin with. Everything else is just more bandaids.

Stx

Nope.

Thinly veiled remove racials thread.

Kittytravel

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

When PvP needs "Battle Spirit", which involves HUGE adjustments like -60% healing... the underlying mechanics of PvP in ESO are complete nonsense to begin with. Everything else is just more bandaids.

This is likely exactly what PvP needs for ESO; fine tuning done to classes directly rather than relying on overarching changes to balance both sides. You tune PvE first (because it makes the most money lets not kid ourselves, if PvP made more money I'd say tune that first) and then after PvE is tuned you use the overarching damage buffs/healing buffs or damage buffs/healing debuffs directly onto classes abilities to take care of PvP. Like you said it can just be the buff called "Battle Spirit" that automatically applies to you whenever in a PvP enabled zone.

Even things like "Proc sets deal 50% less damage against players" would immediately solve everyones oncoming worry about proc sets overtaking the PvP scene; which would allow ZOS to freely use proc sets to raise the skill floor without touching the ceiling.

Ryuvain

Race should be picked because of how liked they are. Hate seeing meta guides choose your race for you.

Karmanorway

Play whatever race you want👍
I play Dark Elf stamina sorcerer, but the best stamrace is Orc. Yet i still win and lose 50/50 when fighting them. I personally dont think its race imbalances that are the issue, more like Class balance... Yes i am looking at u Necromancer 🤨

Luckylancer

Karmanorway wrote: »

Play whatever race you want👍
I play Dark Elf stamina sorcerer, but the best stamrace is Orc. Yet i still win and lose 50/50 when fighting them. I personally dont think its race imbalances that are the issue, more like Class balance... Yes i am looking at u Necromancer 🤨

You play a correct race. Breton or a altmer stam is way much worse than a proper stam race for a stam class.

Kadoin

Doubt it. The real balance issues come from cases where you don't have to give up damage for sustain, or sustain for damage in the game. When you don't have to sacrifice one or the other, it allows you to be able to build or sacrifice a little for something else (like a tank build).

The biggest contributors to balance problems are actually proc sets that either deal damage or heal too much with poor conditions (just look at venomous smite and winter's respite for a good example of proc sets that contribute to PvP balance problems).

Other contributing factors are a general lack of balance between mag and stam builds because of the way break free, block, and dodge work, "rule breakers" that seem to be concentrated on two classes, overloaded skills that also seem to be concentrated on two classes, and finally balance goes down the toilet when new gear is released on the PTS (or gear is updated) and apparently feedback gets completely ignored about sets that anyone should be able to see are OP.

In PvP I have found race to matter little because you literally CAN take advantage of any race's passives if you wanted to.

BXR_Lonestar

Khatou wrote: »

I am asking myself this question more and more and having changed race for my NB stam I have already felt a blatant change...

Wouldn't the problem come from there before the class????

Not really, tbh. It's all about your build. Every race brings something to the table (i.e, more survivability, sustain, damage, etc.). You can have a build that is not optimized or not the meta race and do well, but you have to incorporate things into the build to make up the difference between two hypothetical races of the same class and similar build. For instance, if your comparing Orc vs. a Woodelf or Redguard, the Orc has superior Weapon Dmg, but has less sustain. So if your a race with better sustain, you can afford to put a little more focus on damage and ignore sustain, whereas an Orc would need to incorporate a little more sustain to achieve a similar damage output.

I think the only area you may have an argument is that some races ARE equipped to deal burst damage better, but again, that is only if that is how they are built. I have a bow ganker that completely sacrifices all sustain for extra damage. So he's optimized to do a large amount of damage in a small window, and it works when I can isolate, hit a priority target, and get away from the fight. It doesn't work well when I'm in a large scale sustained battle, as I'm hanging back trying to recover my resources between kills (or getting swamped).

Every single race/build has pros/cons - strengths/ weaknesses and the OP PvP players out there are those that know their class and build so well that they can cover up their weaknesses through playstyle.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Op was playing an argonian before race changing. Only thing argonians are best at in eso is swimming and somehow even that I question. I mean surely there must be a way to increase swim speed on other races and if they can then argonians get btfo in water too.
Not even the best healer race and they have a racial that ONLY increases healing. Even khajiits can heal better then argonians and their racial gives crit damage as well. Stupid balance
Argonians only exist in eso for fans and to sell race changes.

amm7sb14_ESO

Ryuvain wrote: »

Race should be picked because of how liked they are. Hate seeing meta guides choose your race for you.

You could have stopped this thought at "Hate seeing meta guides" and I'd still 100% agree.

I cannot stand meta guides and people trying to tell me how I should be building and playing my character. No, thank you.

VaranisArano

If all other things are equal and you move to a race better suited to your build, you'll probably notice an improvement.

That doesn't mean that racial inequalities are the foundation of your problems in PVP. It's just that you chose that particular method to address your issues, as opposed to practicing more or changing your gear/playstyle to compensate.

Karmanorway

Luckylancer wrote: »

Karmanorway wrote: »

Play whatever race you want👍
I play Dark Elf stamina sorcerer, but the best stamrace is Orc. Yet i still win and lose 50/50 when fighting them. I personally dont think its race imbalances that are the issue, more like Class balance... Yes i am looking at u Necromancer 🤨

You play a correct race. Breton or a altmer stam is way much worse than a proper stam race for a stam class.

Correct race yes, but not the best for stamsorc. Then Orc is better, im specificaly thinking about the 15% reduced sprint cost + 10% Speed bonus

Karmanorway

Karmanorway wrote: »

Luckylancer wrote: »

Karmanorway wrote: »

Play whatever race you want👍
I play Dark Elf stamina sorcerer, but the best stamrace is Orc. Yet i still win and lose 50/50 when fighting them. I personally dont think its race imbalances that are the issue, more like Class balance... Yes i am looking at u Necromancer 🤨

You play a correct race. Breton or a altmer stam is way much worse than a proper stam race for a stam class.

Correct race yes, Dark Elf is "Jack of all trade" but not the best for stamsorc. Then Orc is better, im specificaly thinking about the 15% reduced sprint cost + 10% Speed bonus

TequilaFire

Ah but our Dark Elf stamsorcs can streak though and grab scrolls out of lava.

itscompton

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Op was playing an argonian before race changing. Only thing argonians are best at in eso is swimming and somehow even that I question. I mean surely there must be a way to increase swim speed on other races and if they can then argonians get btfo in water too.
Not even the best healer race and they have a racial that ONLY increases healing. Even khajiits can heal better then argonians and their racial gives crit damage as well. Stupid balance
Argonians only exist in eso for fans and to sell race changes.

Maybe you're new but Argonians were OP meta for quite a while. Not as good now but making every pot a tri-pot is still nice.

idk

The race could not be an issue with the balance between classes as any race can be used for any class as itscompton pointed out already.

Further, a players skill level far outperforms anything a choice in race could provide.

Khatou

When I see some people saying that this has little impact on PVP, to me it's an abuse of a loophole in a deliberately integrated game, then yes, for PVP that's fine, but in PVP the difference is felt more than some people are trying to admit.

Otherwise, if you find that it has no impact on PVP, then why do some youtubers and others advise you to run for this role? You see, you can be wrong in saying that!

So yes, I guess that's not the only problem, but I'm sure it's a problem factor for the PVP.

idk

Khatou wrote: »

When I see some people saying that this has little impact on PVP, to me it's an abuse of a loophole in a deliberately integrated game, then yes, for PVP that's fine, but in PVP the difference is felt more than some people are trying to admit.

Otherwise, if you find that it has no impact on PVP, then why do some youtubers and others advise you to run for this role? You see, you can be wrong in saying that!

So yes, I guess that's not the only problem, but I'm sure it's a problem factor for the PVP.

This is not a loophole. Race choice having passives is a very deliberate part of the game design. It is a very deliberate part of TES since the early days of this IP.

Further, I doubt many die often because of their choice of race.

Taleof2Cities

idk wrote: »

Khatou wrote: »

When I see some people saying that this has little impact on PVP, to me it's an abuse of a loophole in a deliberately integrated game, then yes, for PVP that's fine, but in PVP the difference is felt more than some people are trying to admit.

Otherwise, if you find that it has no impact on PVP, then why do some youtubers and others advise you to run for this role? You see, you can be wrong in saying that!

So yes, I guess that's not the only problem, but I'm sure it's a problem factor for the PVP.

This is not a loophole. Race choice having passives is a very deliberate part of the game design. It is a very deliberate part of TES since the early days of this IP.

Further, I doubt many die often because of their choice of race.

^This.^

Nemesis7884

the only thing this craze for balance and the constant whining in pvp have achieved is completely destroy any class identity or differences - and we will never get class identity or the such - everything is the same now, might as well abandon all classes...and replace everything with skill lines

standardization is the death of identity and diversity - bland and boring

Bucky_13

Khatou wrote: »

When I see some people saying that this has little impact on PVP, to me it's an abuse of a loophole in a deliberately integrated game, then yes, for PVP that's fine, but in PVP the difference is felt more than some people are trying to admit.

Otherwise, if you find that it has no impact on PVP, then why do some youtubers and others advise you to run for this role? You see, you can be wrong in saying that!

So yes, I guess that's not the only problem, but I'm sure it's a problem factor for the PVP.

The thing with PvP is that off meta builds are far more common and successful compared to PvE. This includes races. While my main stamblade is a dark elf since before the racials overhaul, my 2nd PvP stamblade is a nord. The dark elf is better offensively due to passives, but the nord is better defensively. Both are efficient and more dependent on how I gear and play them than their racials. Player skill level will always be the most important factor to success in PvP, racials comes last after sets, skill setup and the knowledge of how to utilize them which are all of far greater importance.

VaranisArano

Khatou wrote: »

When I see some people saying that this has little impact on PVP, to me it's an abuse of a loophole in a deliberately integrated game, then yes, for PVP that's fine, but in PVP the difference is felt more than some people are trying to admit.

Otherwise, if you find that it has no impact on PVP, then why do some youtubers and others advise you to run for this role? You see, you can be wrong in saying that!

So yes, I guess that's not the only problem, but I'm sure it's a problem factor for the PVP.

It has an impact, sure. You noticed a difference because your skill and presumably your meta build remained the same.

Realistically, how often do you fight players of the same skill, gear, build, and class as you where the only difference is character race?

Having been the noob using the meta gear/build/race/class combo, IME, its player (in)experience that makes the biggest difference in player performance. And it's just nigh impossible to balance PVP that's originally designed for group play around 1v1s.

itscompton

Khatou wrote: »

When I see some people saying that this has little impact on PVP, to me it's an abuse of a loophole in a deliberately integrated game, then yes, for PVP that's fine, but in PVP the difference is felt more than some people are trying to admit.

Otherwise, if you find that it has no impact on PVP, then why do some youtubers and others advise you to run for this role? You see, you can be wrong in saying that!

So yes, I guess that's not the only problem, but I'm sure it's a problem factor for the PVP.

If you're rolling a race with bonuses that are completely useless to a magica toon such as being a Wood Elf MagSorc and you run into a Breton Magsorc with identical gear and skill bar set up, played by someone of equal skill, then yes you'd be at a definite disadvantage. But if you're more concerned with PvP than role playing you could just use a race change token to switch your Magsorc to a Breton as well, putting you on equal footing. Or alternatively you could choose to be an Altmer, a Dunmer, a Khajiit, an Argonian, or even a Nord. Any of which have racial bonuses that could be utilized to allow you to better match up to the Breton Magsorc, with minimal adjustments to your gear/playstyle,
But hypothetically lets imagine you're an experienced, fairly skilled player on a top-notch, ideally geared MagWarden and no matter what you get rolled by any halfway decent player running a Youtube meta StamCro build; that's a balance problem because there is nothing you can do at that point to compete unless the Devs update class skills and passives.

xXMeowMeowXx

Nopes, I don’t see this as an issue. The race picked can fit a build and the playstyle of that build to enhance it. Though peeps can pick what they were told was bis and drop fast.

It is the player....

Though with this upcoming patch, I do not see skill and experience being rewarded. *sigh*

Even what tests I have run are a very good indicator of that.

Sarannah

Racials are fine, they only make up about 2-3% of a character's total power.

The thing PvP'ers need to learn is that balance is impossible to achieve. The buffing and nerfing of skills is pointless, and always dictated by PvP. PvP'ers need to understand that PvP is fluid, and everchanging. There is always a counter to something, so when multiple players use one popular build or skill, another player will make a build to counter it. When more players make that counter build, another player will make a counterbuild to the counterbuild. And it goes on and on. Unless something is seriously broken, wasting development time on balance is pointless in my opinion.

And all the while PvP players will claim skill X from whoever they are up against is overpowered, simply because in their mind they need something to justify their loss.

The only thing this foolish balance-chasing achieves, is less and less interesting classes.

Wandering_Immigrant

itscompton wrote: »

Khatou wrote: »

When I see some people saying that this has little impact on PVP, to me it's an abuse of a loophole in a deliberately integrated game, then yes, for PVP that's fine, but in PVP the difference is felt more than some people are trying to admit.

Otherwise, if you find that it has no impact on PVP, then why do some youtubers and others advise you to run for this role? You see, you can be wrong in saying that!

So yes, I guess that's not the only problem, but I'm sure it's a problem factor for the PVP.

If you're rolling a race with bonuses that are completely useless to a magica toon such as being a Wood Elf MagSorc and you run into a Breton Magsorc with identical gear and skill bar set up, played by someone of equal skill, then yes you'd be at a definite disadvantage. But if you're more concerned with PvP than role playing you could just use a race change token to switch your Magsorc to a Breton as well, putting you on equal footing. Or alternatively you could choose to be an Altmer, a Dunmer, a Khajiit, an Argonian, or even a Nord. Any of which have racial bonuses that could be utilized to allow you to better match up to the Breton Magsorc, with minimal adjustments to your gear/playstyle,
But hypothetically lets imagine you're an experienced, fairly skilled player on a top-notch, ideally geared MagWarden and no matter what you get rolled by any halfway decent player running a Youtube meta StamCro build; that's a balance problem because there is nothing you can do at that point to compete unless the Devs update class skills and passives.

The thing with PvP though is even this example doesn't put you at a definite disadvantage. The Bosmer with their Stam sustain and roll passives are going to have better mitigation and mobility. Of course if your only defense is to stand there like a statue with your shields up never blocking and taking all the damage to the face, then yeah it's a disadvantage, you have to use your bonuses to benefit from them, but it still comes down to player skill. And that's with Bosmer who's passives are considered sub-par even on Stam builds.

Racials have far more impact in PvE where you're just a cog in the system and all of your build is targeted toward a singular function.

VaranisArano

Sarannah wrote: »

Racials are fine, they only make up about 2-3% of a character's total power.

The thing PvP'ers need to learn is that balance is impossible to achieve. The buffing and nerfing of skills is pointless, and always dictated by PvP. PvP'ers need to understand that PvP is fluid, and everchanging. There is always a counter to something, so when multiple players use one popular build or skill, another player will make a build to counter it. When more players make that counter build, another player will make a counterbuild to the counterbuild. And it goes on and on. Unless something is seriously broken, wasting development time on balance is pointless in my opinion.

And all the while PvP players will claim skill X from whoever they are up against is overpowered, simply because in their mind they need something to justify their loss.

The only thing this foolish balance-chasing achieves, is less and less interesting classes.

The other thing that balance-chasing achieves, and this is true of both PVE and PVP, is getting players to swap to the flavor of the month. It's a cheap way for ZOS to extend the lifespan of the game: "play ESO with a meta necro!" Then next update: "play ESO with a meta templar" and so on.

PVEers typically don't see why ZOS changes up the meta classes unless we're hitting situations where everyone wants to bring 8 Necromancers to a trial, but it's still true. The balance chasing is a cheap way to keep PVE and PVP from becoming stale and stagnant.

MincVinyl

In reality racial passives barely are a factor in most situations. For instance I have played a bosmer stamsorc since IC came out. Back then it was even worse, the racial changes helped to a degree. Unless I am trying to be competitive in duels, you can really work with most races.

Obviously running a breton stamdk might not go so well, but any stam race will do fine. If a player picks a general stam/mag race for what they are doing, player skill will have a much greater impact on the battle than the racial passives selected.