[PVE Issues] Stam dps disparity from Mag dps increased even further in PTS 6.1.0

QQKimchi

Edit: Ignore below lol. Spoke too early, misinterpreted the utility from alkosh and War machines... I am a derp and I should feel derp

In any end-game pve composition mag dps compositions are both desired for performance (Dps), sustain and survivability. Not only can magdps deal just as much or more damage than stam dps in single target (even more in aoe), but they can also do it safely and reliably from a ranged perspective (except magDK and sometimes magplars). End game compositions run pfg, hollowfang, elemental drain, and worm for magicka sustain, with the only mirror stam equivalents being hircines for worm, and vicious serpent for stam. But the lackluster damage from vicious serpent isn't enough to compensate the sustain, so it's really just a hircines equivalent. This allows magicka players to have the luxury of using bi-stat foods without sustain issues, resulting in more health/survivability and damage benefits from a higher resource pool. The builds to combat the range disadvantage on stam is the bow/bow build, which does even less dps than their melee 2h or dw builds.

I can go on about other differences for example stam dps having to use 7 medium armor pieces or lack innate weapon penetration, unlike the light armor skill line, resulting into excessive CP allocation into piercing. This can be compensated a bit with tremorscale changes in the last patch, but with the reign of mag dps why bother sacrificing a monster helm set for it?

The problem with the current PTS patch for stam dps is that their relevant hard-hitting sets have been nerfed significantly more than mag dps sets. Sure pfg lost its 5 piece bonus of spell damage and max magicka, but comparably relequens 5 piece received a 25% dps loss (20 to 15 stacks) and lokkestiiz 5 piece had a a 33% dps loss. It's already difficult to keep lokkestiiz at a high uptime even in more optimized pve groups. Other alternative sets like tzogs also received a 40% 5-piece crit nerf, which makes advancing yokeda's buff(heavy armor set) the only compensation for these nerfs. However, with all the stam dps sets I've mentioned, they require certain proc conditions (relequen, tzog, and AY stacks need to be reapplied within 5s) to actually perform effectively. Lokkestiiz also requires synergy procs (now needs to rotate 4 synergies perfectly compared to 3 pre-6.1.0). This is compared to the conventional endgame 5-piece bonuses of magdps of mother's sorrow which is just a flat 5 piece bonus.

If there is a goal of balancing mag/stam dps tradeoffs, then this upcoming PTS 6.1.0 stam set nerfs severely widens the gap of mag and stam dps. If there isn't a goal to do so, why isn't there?

tl;Dr stam dps are less viable than mag dps in end-game compositions atm and the gap will be widened further with these stam dps set nerfs. But hey at least we might see alkosh stam debuffers in end-game comps now. Nope jk it was a prank, torugs will perform pretty similarly to alkosh (just below) now with the .9 enchant boost from 0.3.

Azyle1

This stuff changes all the time. In 4 months, stam may be the best, who knows. Don't fret. Just play what the meta wants. Unfortunately, that is the only thing you can do.

ToxicFireWolf

I totally agree, stamdps sets got hit harder than magdps. But the worst ting is, they ruined bloodthirsty trait too, before 6.1.0 bloodthirsty was a good trade off from having more overall damage (with infused + damage enchantment) to having execute damage, now its useless and running 3 infused will be much better. I seriously hope that zos changes their mind about these nerfs (BRING BACK THE GOOD OLD BLOODTHIRSTY) or at least that they dont nerf the sets too hard (maybe add bit more damage per tick to rele, and a few more seconds, like 2 extra for 12 seconds in total, to lokke).

BattleAxe

QQKimchi wrote: »

In any end-game pve composition mag dps compositions are both desired for performance (Dps), sustain and survivability. Not only can magdps deal more damage than stam dps, but they can also do it safely and reliably from a ranged perspective (except magDK and sometimes magplars). End game compositions run pfg, hollowfang, elemental drain, and worm for magicka sustain, with the only mirror stam equivalents being hircines for worm, and vicious serpent for stam. But the lackluster damage from vicious serpent isn't enough to compensate the sustain, so it's really just a hircines equivalent. This allows magicka players to have the luxury of using bi-stat foods without sustain issues, resulting in more health/survivability and damage benefits from a higher resource pool. The builds to combat the range disadvantage on stam is the bow/bow build, which does even less dps than their melee 2h or dw builds.

I can go on about other differences for example stam dps having to use 7 medium armor pieces or lack innate weapon penetration, unlike the light armor skill line, resulting into excessive CP allocation into piercing. This can be compensated a bit with tremorscale changes in the last patch, but with the reign of mag dps why bother sacrificing a monster helm set for it?

The problem with the current PTS patch for stam dps is that their relevant hard-hitting sets have been nerfed significantly more than mag dps sets. Sure pfg lost its 5 piece bonus of spell damage and max magicka, but comparably relequens 5 piece received a 25% dps loss (20 to 15 stacks) and lokkestiiz 5 piece had a a 33% dps loss. It's already difficult to keep lokkestiiz at a high uptime even in more optimized pve groups. Other alternative sets like tzogs also received a 40% 5-piece crit nerf, which makes advancing yokeda's buff(heavy armor set) the only compensation for these nerfs. However, with all the stam dps sets I've mentioned, they require certain proc conditions (relequen, tzog, and AY stacks need to be reapplied within 5s) to actually perform effectively. Lokkestiiz also requires synergy procs (now needs to rotate 4 synergies perfectly compared to 3 pre-6.1.0). This is compared to the conventional endgame 5-piece bonuses of magdps of mother's sorrow which is just a flat 5 piece bonus.

If there is a goal of balancing mag/stam dps tradeoffs, then this upcoming PTS 6.1.0 stam set nerfs severely widens the gap of mag and stam dps. If there isn't a goal to do so, why isn't there?

tl;Dr stam dps are less viable than mag dps in end-game compositions atm and the gap will be widened further with these stam dps set nerfs. But hey at least we might see alkosh stam debuffers in end-game comps now. Nope jk it was a prank, torugs will perform pretty similarly to alkosh (just below) now with the .9 enchant boost from 0.3.

With a strong enough stam build alkosh can probably nearly give all the penetration stam needs as its armor shred is now based off the initial hit so viably you can have an optimized stam raid at full pen almost solely off alkosh

QQKimchi

[/quote]

With a strong enough stam build alkosh can probably nearly give all the penetration stam needs as its armor shred is now based off the initial hit so viably you can have an optimized stam raid at full pen almost solely off alkosh[/quote]

Yeah I'm not denying that an optimized stam dps group can't reach max pen or clear end-game pve content. It's just significantly more difficult and the differences are more noticeable. Penetration is just one of the aforementioned factors. Sure alkosh can get you max pen, but you'll still need about 60 points unto piercing unless you tradeoff a sharpened weapon, or use tremorscale. Even then you'll still require a higher allocation of cp than an equivalent magdps.

I don't even know if alkosh will be used in the next patch. Infused crusher is 2108 + torugs 90% boost is 4006 penetration. Crusher is 3010 penetration. The difference between infused crusher + torugs and aklosh + torugs is about 1.1k

Volktair

Tired of getting my stamdk nerfed and gears changing every damn patchs. Now i'm just running my old vicious snake + kragh + twice fanged.

Works well (vbrp, vma, vkyne... ). No lack of ressources, permanent speed, huge aoe, correct single target (around 40k if i remenber).

BattleAxe

QQKimchi wrote: »

With a strong enough stam build alkosh can probably nearly give all the penetration stam needs as its armor shred is now based off the initial hit so viably you can have an optimized stam raid at full pen almost solely off alkosh[/quote]

Yeah I'm not denying that an optimized stam dps group can't reach max pen or clear end-game pve content. It's just significantly more difficult and the differences are more noticeable. Penetration is just one of the aforementioned factors. Sure alkosh can get you max pen, but you'll still need about 60 points unto piercing unless you tradeoff a sharpened weapon, or use tremorscale. Even then you'll still require a higher allocation of cp than an equivalent magdps.

I don't even know if alkosh will be used in the next patch. Infused crusher is 2108 + torugs 90% boost is 4006 penetration. Crusher is 3010 penetration. The difference between infused crusher + torugs and aklosh + torugs is about 1.1k
[/quote]

ZOS_GinaBrunoZOS_GinaBruno
Community Manager
Hi all, this will be adjusted to 45% in a future PTS incremental; it wasn't intended to be at 90%.

Skjaldbjorn

I actually think Stam got buffed, but the meta shifted. WM/AY/Yandir got significant buffs.

BattleAxe

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I actually think Stam got buffed, but the meta shifted. WM/AY/Yandir got significant buffs.

I’ll have to wait and run numbers but viably a stam raid group may likely hit pen cap with tank taunt tremor scale and alkosh. If your initial hit of alkosh proc hits for at least 8-10k with 1 piece of sharpened trained weapons you are at pen cap if it’s still 18500 with tremorscale and pierce armor.

Skjaldbjorn

BattleAxe wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I actually think Stam got buffed, but the meta shifted. WM/AY/Yandir got significant buffs.

I’ll have to wait and run numbers but viably a stam raid group may likely hit pen cap with tank taunt tremor scale and alkosh. If your initial hit of alkosh proc hits for at least 8-10k with 1 piece of sharpened trained weapons you are at pen cap if it’s still 18500.

Don't forget the Stam Sorc 1k armor debuff now from their new spammable. We can easily free CP.

BattleAxe

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I actually think Stam got buffed, but the meta shifted. WM/AY/Yandir got significant buffs.

I’ll have to wait and run numbers but viably a stam raid group may likely hit pen cap with tank taunt tremor scale and alkosh. If your initial hit of alkosh proc hits for at least 8-10k with 1 piece of sharpened trained weapons you are at pen cap if it’s still 18500.

Don't forget the Stam Sorc 1k armor debuff now from their new spammable. We can easily free CP.

Looks like 61 points of cp just got free to allocate else where for stam dps

QQKimchi

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I actually think Stam got buffed, but the meta shifted. WM/AY/Yandir got significant buffs.

oh Yandir never caught my eyes. Yandir would be viable with 5*74 = 370 weapon next patch, but it still performs weaker than new moon acolyte which has 480 weapon damage. Not to mention that the 4th line of yandir is stam recovery not a dps line.. so no Yandir's buffs isn't significantly apparent to me to say that stam dps got buffed.

What is WM?

Celestro

War Machine.

BattleAxe

QQKimchi wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I actually think Stam got buffed, but the meta shifted. WM/AY/Yandir got significant buffs.

oh Yandir never caught my eyes. Yandir would be viable with 5*74 = 370 weapon next patch, but it still performs weaker than new moon acolyte which has 480 weapon damage. Not to mention that the 4th line of yandir is stam recovery not a dps line.. so no Yandir's buffs isn't significantly apparent to me to say that stam dps got buffed.

What is WM?

War Machine I think.

QQKimchi

Celestro wrote: »

War Machine.

Oh thanks.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I actually think Stam got buffed, but the meta shifted. WM/AY/Yandir got significant buffs.

How did war machine get buffed? War machine and master's architect went from 10s duration to 5s, with the bonus that it affects 2 more people. In additive terms, it means that at a 70 ult cost (magblades or stamblades which has the fastest ult generation), it's now 5s * 5 people or 25s worth of uptime from previously 10s * 3 people or 30s worth of uptime per cast. Indivual uptime is significantly lower, dropping its utility in 4 man content.

CleymenZero

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I actually think Stam got buffed, but the meta shifted. WM/AY/Yandir got significant buffs.

I agree man, stam got a buff if anything and I'm super happy to get rid of Relequen... no more losing stacks when you need to help your teammates out of sanguine prison for example.

I hate Relequen. Crutch set with no aoe utility.

I don't know how Alkosh will scale but I see a stamblade running it in PvE now with constant incap for higher damage proc (not 100% but pretty sure incap increases damage of proc sets). It all depends on how it scales.

CleymenZero

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I actually think Stam got buffed, but the meta shifted. WM/AY/Yandir got significant buffs.

Kinda pissed about Yandir though as the perfected version was amazing in PvP. You could toggle between recovery and burst. 4th piece being pen was really good.

I just wish thrassians had permanent stacks still so stam could benefit a lot too.

QQKimchi

CleymenZero wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I actually think Stam got buffed, but the meta shifted. WM/AY/Yandir got significant buffs.

I agree man, stam got a buff if anything and I'm super happy to get rid of Relequen... no more losing stacks when you need to help your teammates out of sanguine prison for example.

I hate Relequen. Crutch set with no aoe utility.

I don't know how Alkosh will scale but I see a stamblade running it in PvE now with constant incap for higher damage proc (not 100% but pretty sure incap increases damage of proc sets). It all depends on how it scales.

How... I don't see where these numbers are coming from. Yandir (6.1.0 buff) performs worse than New moons acolyte (NMA) in weapon damage. Also there's a stam recovery in the 4th line instead of a dps line. NMA already worse than rele and lokk (66% major slayer uptime on 21mil dummy), meaning yandir is significantly worrse. War machine definitely got nerfed, uptimes are worse than it was pre (6.1.0). Yes Advancing yokeda did get buffed, but it originally performed worse than both original rele and lokk. Even after the 1k weapon crit buff (like 5% extra weapon crit?), I don't suspect that it'll do better than the pre-nerfed rele and lokk.

Where are the justifications for stam dps being buffed?

BattleAxe

QQKimchi wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I actually think Stam got buffed, but the meta shifted. WM/AY/Yandir got significant buffs.

I agree man, stam got a buff if anything and I'm super happy to get rid of Relequen... no more losing stacks when you need to help your teammates out of sanguine prison for example.

I hate Relequen. Crutch set with no aoe utility.

I don't know how Alkosh will scale but I see a stamblade running it in PvE now with constant incap for higher damage proc (not 100% but pretty sure incap increases damage of proc sets). It all depends on how it scales.

How... I don't see where these numbers are coming from. Yandir (6.1.0 buff) performs worse than New moons acolyte (NMA) in weapon damage. Also there's a stam recovery in the 4th line instead of a dps line. NMA already worse than rele and lokk (66% major slayer uptime on 21mil dummy), meaning yandir is significantly worrse. War machine definitely got nerfed, uptimes are worse than it was pre (6.1.0). Yes Advancing yokeda did get buffed, but it originally performed worse than both original rele and lokk. Even after the 1k weapon crit buff (like 5% extra weapon crit?), I don't suspect that it'll do better than the pre-nerfed rele and lokk.

Where are the justifications for stam dps being buffed?

If alkosh works in pts as I believe it does from the wording of its change stam will be able to reallocate cp points and add even more damage instead of investing into penetration.

CleymenZero

QQKimchi wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I actually think Stam got buffed, but the meta shifted. WM/AY/Yandir got significant buffs.

I agree man, stam got a buff if anything and I'm super happy to get rid of Relequen... no more losing stacks when you need to help your teammates out of sanguine prison for example.

I hate Relequen. Crutch set with no aoe utility.

I don't know how Alkosh will scale but I see a stamblade running it in PvE now with constant incap for higher damage proc (not 100% but pretty sure incap increases damage of proc sets). It all depends on how it scales.

How... I don't see where these numbers are coming from. Yandir (6.1.0 buff) performs worse than New moons acolyte (NMA) in weapon damage. Also there's a stam recovery in the 4th line instead of a dps line. NMA already worse than rele and lokk (66% major slayer uptime on 21mil dummy), meaning yandir is significantly worrse. War machine definitely got nerfed, uptimes are worse than it was pre (6.1.0). Yes Advancing yokeda did get buffed, but it originally performed worse than both original rele and lokk. Even after the 1k weapon crit buff (like 5% extra weapon crit?), I don't suspect that it'll do better than the pre-nerfed rele and lokk.

Where are the justifications for stam dps being buffed?

OK, buff may not be the right word but see more utility might be a better qualifier.

Remember: Thrassians = dead, Blood for Blood = dead.

So it's not so much that stam got buffed outright but they got somewhat ZOS buffed which is essentially saying they nerfed everything else to make stam less trivial.

QQKimchi

I didn't realize the alkosh changes were such a huge buff. Then my aforementioned disparities between mag and stam didn't widen, but infact the opposite and this became a trash post whoopsies.

WrathOfInnos

Stamina ended up far better in 6.1.0 than Magicka. Magicka DPS lost over 40% damage from the changes to Blood for Blood and Thrassian Stranglers alone. Not to mention the minor nerfs to False God’s and Siroria.

The AY buff alone brings it from 9.1% to 13.9% crit on the 5-piece. This is massive, especially considering how important crit will be with the new Elemental Catalyst set providing 18% more crit damage to the group. The Lokkestiiz change shouldn’t affect DPS much, a synergy every 10s isn’t difficult. Orb alone will give 50% uptime. There’s also the option of putting 3 DPS in War Machine and getting average 60% Major Slayer uptime across the group, while 5 DPS get to slot another damage set. The increase to Alkosh will benefit Stam more than Mag, since it just puts Mag over the pen cap. Same with the new Stam Sorc armor debuff spammable, and the increase to Torugs Crusher. Add these to Tremorscale and Stamina reaching the pen cap requires little to no personal investment.

This is looking like better balance than anything we’ve seen in months.

Danksta

This gap is even wider on console without quick gear swaps.

Jaimeh

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Stamina ended up far better in 6.1.0 than Magicka. Magicka DPS lost over 40% damage from the changes to Blood for Blood and Thrassian Stranglers alone. Not to mention the minor nerfs to False God’s and Siroria.

The AY buff alone brings it from 9.1% to 13.9% crit on the 5-piece. This is massive, especially considering how important crit will be with the new Elemental Catalyst set providing 18% more crit damage to the group. The Lokkestiiz change shouldn’t affect DPS much, a synergy every 10s isn’t difficult. Orb alone will give 50% uptime. There’s also the option of putting 3 DPS in War Machine and getting average 60% Major Slayer uptime across the group, while 5 DPS get to slot another damage set. The increase to Alkosh will benefit Stam more than Mag, since it just puts Mag over the pen cap. Same with the new Stam Sorc armor debuff spammable, and the increase to Torugs Crusher. Add these to Tremorscale and Stamina reaching the pen cap requires little to no personal investment.

This is looking like better balance than anything we’ve seen in months.

I've run all trials since Greymmor, with organized, decent groups, not a single tank was wearing Tremourscale. I play stam, so I make a point to check, to adjust CP... it would be nice if stam could perform as well without necessitating the perfect group (not to mention sustain disparities). It seems to me they made these nerfs to stam sets, because they also nerfed mag skills and sets, but they didn't consider that stam was already behind mag... Everyone in end-game circles was playing mag, at least mid-game has more diversity, but in any case stam needed a boost not a nerf (while mag still has a BIS, easy to get overland flat stat set like MS in its kit).

Abyssmol

Just look at the first two new sets. For magicka get a 10% weakness to fire and fighter's guild with a mediocre spell damage. Stamina set - give your opponent a 20k dot within 5 seconds. Perfectly balanced. Why stamima sets have to be so much stronger on every patch?

RusevCrush

Even with harder hitting sets you rarely see stam, it's all mag. Just easier. Any serious guild requires more dps out of their stam players. Otherwise, what's the point of taking them?

Onefrkncrzypope

Abyssmol wrote: »

Just look at the first two new sets. For magicka get a 10% weakness to fire and fighter's guild with a mediocre spell damage. Stamina set - give your opponent a 20k dot within 5 seconds. Perfectly balanced. Why stamima sets have to be so much stronger on every patch?

That's a 4k dot. What's the uptime? Lowers dps. Granted that is huge in PvP but this is a pve discussion. Luckily PvP is already trash so this new proc set meta will just be a drop into that imbalance pit but there isn't room for Stam. They need so much just to perform on par with mag it's become a bit ridiculous.

I'm unsure about the crit buff though. Maybe it'll help cause Stam but idk yet. PvE set choice has become pretty miniscule for Stam and mag is locked too