Before I watched this, I knew it would sound familiar. As it is the way MMORPGS are managed.

LuxLunae

This is not an eso problem. It is an MMORPG problem. You will see in my forum history, I have brought this type of stuff up. I wanted to make YT vids on MMO economies and lifecycles. However, I am too lazy to fully write a script and make the vid. I said in one of my post, "If someone finds the formula to keep an MMO alive, they may be given an nobel prize" because, at that point they would have solved an age old economic problem. NO MMO has found this solution. NONE. At 50 years, they might have something. At 100 years, they are close. At 200 years, pass out the nobel prize.

Now here is the video I was talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLYQxdRbDes

Change the b-word (lol) with ZoS and see if it hears familiar.

Since MMOs can't have an end....holy crap...wait a minute is this an MMO problem or an internet engagement problem?
Think about it, even facebook can be seen to be the same....

You see, facebook, they keep you engaged by chaining you to a never ending scroll of data. They use things like likes, notifications, etc to keep feeding your brain short highs. You sustain the short highs by continuing to scroll down the endless texts and photos. Your brain is trying to consume it all but it can't. Your brain get's use to grabbing these short highs and it spills out into the real world. Facebook IS a DRUG....

Why do you think tiktok is so popular? Instead of watching 30 min vids, you can consume the short vid, get the high, and move on to the next....who has tiktok here? Who has facebook here?

I quit social media way back in 2014. MMOs will incorporoate what facebook did to our brains and look to make short term goals to give us a high. Then remove it and switch it to another.

The intenet, has made our brains more impulsive. Facebook is gathering the data we happily give away to create the ultimate use case for advertising. This will then be able to predict more than what you want to buy. Facebook will sell this persona (i don't know what it's called a human representation of data) to other companies and it will be incorporated into MMOs, Vid Games, Movies, EVERYTHING!!! Sorry I forgot google is doing the same as well....

Facebook created their dating app for that, google created stadia for that reason as well. It's all for your data. Once they have that persona, they can start making the MMO lifecycle extend passed 200 yrs. They won't need your feedback, they got the feedback from your raw unfiltered comments, thoughts, lust off the internet. (google was speaking to a prominent adult site for their data. They probably made a deal to use their YT algorithms to see what parts people are interested in)

When they obtain what you lust for, what you pay for and what you think....They have your decision making as a human....

Oh and I forgot, simply getting off the internet won't stop this. They have cameras in supermarkets that track peoples movements. AI can spot your face. Walmart, BestBuy, WholeFoods, etc will share the data with each other mark my words.

Presidential polls will be a thing of the past. They will predict easily with the persona.

I can't believe I didn't see how this all ties together...

They called me a madman...

Derra

All the devs do it because they fail to come up with long term engaging/working endgame content.

If ZOS or Blizzard had managed to put in meaningful pvp content allowing for participation on all skill levels (this only works with chaotic open world large scale pvp imo) they wouldn´t have the issues trying to raise participation and player engagement with unfun/unhealthy grinds or rgn lotteries.

Why does that guy come around with pvp again?
It´s quite simple. PvP is the only endgame (in terms of char progression) content that is player created. Meaning IF it works it´s low maintenance for the developers - with at the same time HUGE engagement potential (it´s one of the last gameplay elements that requires the social aspect of mmos which keeps people hooked playing - with and against other players that become friends and mortal enemies).
PvE can´t provide that amount of content unless it´s unreasonably difficult to complete - which doesn´t fit for their playerbase - because it requires dev time to create.

What´s hard about that is providing a pvp environment that:
a) simply works
b) allows a large portion of the playerbase to participate in a meaningful way

ESO and virtually any game since daoc failed horribly at point a).
They did reasonably well regarding point b) in the beginning apart from obvious mistakes like huge grps, crown on grplead, mappin on group members (organisation reduces the ability to participate).
Which they then ironically managed to make worse by reducing population caps and massively increasing ttk over the course of the game (less pop means it´s easier to organize large parts of the remaining playerbase - see above about organisation // higher ttk meaning that lucky wins or wins on an unaware player become less frequent/likely resulting in a "never die" mentality instead of "die => better luck next time").

Sange13

Been awhile since I've seen this much effort put into a [snip] post. Well done.

[Edited to remove potential Bashing]

Tommy_The_Gun

Good video. I suggest to watch it to the end as this guy is talking about stuff that although is a part of other mmo, is suspiciously similar to ESO and recent changes. Like for example adding stuff later on to make people re-do old content they already done...

Tammany

Daily reminder. Wow does not have 5 seconds delay in pvp.

Op is a little lier and turning tables.
"Oh look, in this country people complain about goverment too! Just change names!|"
But in fact in one country people complain because they dont have money to eat, and in another country they complay they dont have moneys to gas their muscle cars too often.

Moonsorrow

Derra wrote: »

What´s hard about that is providing a pvp environment that:
a) simply works

I laughcried (is that even a word) to that part.. because of years of traumas.

But yes, your message was full of wisdom and so true. Well said Master Derra.

Kiralyn2000

Derra wrote: »

Why does that guy come around with pvp again?
It´s quite simple. PvP is the only endgame (in terms of char progression) content that is player created.

Which is why we're stuck with this plague of high-profit yearly shooter releases (CoD, Battlefield, etc), because it frees the devs from actually having to work at making content, because they get all the free "content" that is "player created".


Personally, though, I find pvp (ignoring the Horrible Toxic Player problem) to be mind-numbingly repetitive. Two or more people hitting/shooting each other til they fall down, over and over and over, same as it ever was. An endless Groundhog Day of identical repetitive death & respawn.

(Did some Counterstrike / Quake / Unreal Tournament back when they were relatively new. I did the battleground pvp rank grind in WoW, back before Arenas, to rank 9 or 10. I stepped a foot in the pvp modes of a handful of games since then - Neverwinter, Secret World, Dark Zone in the Division, etc. Haven't set foot in pvp since. It's obnoxious. And, as I mentioned, stupidly repetitive, beyond the dreams of PvE content.)

LuxLunae

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Personally, though, I find pvp (ignoring the Horrible Toxic Player problem) to be mind-numbingly repetitive. Two or more people hitting/shooting each other til they fall down, over and over and over, same as it ever was. An endless Groundhog Day of identical repetitive death & respawn.

If you read my main post, remember I said that Facebook, tiktok, social media in general lets you scroll down endlessly. They let you see the like/videos/images and lets the user get the short high over it and move on to the next one easily.Feeding into the short term goals. Sustaining it by staying on it and continuing to scroll more endlessly. It's a drug....Not only that, it has trasformed the brain to mostly wanting short term rewards. Instead of going for the long term ones. Now social media can use this impulsiveness to effectively get us to buy whatever they want.

Now that you said tha quotet, I now realize why FPS are so popular.... essentially each kill gives a short high.. and it's on to the next one... sustaining the short high over and over agian....

I never understood KD ratio....it's stupid...Your goal is to STOP the opposing team from accomplishing their goal....who cares about KD? This is why even sometimes in BGs these fools killing me and I just keep spawning and going straight to the flags... and then i have 0 kills 10 deaths and the highest points....

Ignotus

OP wrote:

They have cameras in supermarkets that track peoples movements. AI can spot your face. Walmart, BestBuy, WholeFoods, etc will share the data with each other mark my words.

I find this amusing with the current situation in our country (the US anyway) where people are being asked to wear a mask. I know a lot of people that complain about it and refuse to do it. I don't know how widespread facial tracking is in the US as of yet, but I know it's fairly common in China. You know what one of the side effects of mask wearing is? Facial tracking either won't work or will be much less effective. Not only that, but who as a kid didn't think it would be cool to walk around in public wearing a mask? Before now, some banks wouldn't let you walk in with a hat or sunglasses, but now you're asked to wear a mask! The kid in me thinks it's great that I can wear a ninja mask in public and not only get odd looks, but people will now give me those looks if I DON'T wear one.

Neophyte

WoW is a pure grinding game. I played through every tier of the latest expansion. ESO has got rid of a lot of the grind you need to do to make it more casual. It’s hard to fall behind in ESO gearing wise. Is easy to level new characters and jump straight into end game. I have one major issue with pvp (obviously performance) but there’s nothing cyrodiil can give you to show you are good at the game and there’s nothing to work towards apart from farming a currency which gives allows you to buy trash you probably already have. ESO doesn’t force you to do any content and none of the dungeons are pressuring you with timers (mythic+) to get better gear. If ESO bring out systems on top of systems that are required to make you relevant before you start endgame they will kill their game 100% . It’s designed for casuals. Never mind buffs/nerfs happens all the time. But since a started ESO a few months after launch the most disgusting change I’ve seen is the recent change to master weapons and vma weapons.

mavfin

Ignotus wrote: »

Before now, some banks wouldn't let you walk in with a hat or sunglasses, but now you're asked to wear a mask!

I will assure you that the bank(s) I work for will ask you to show your face if you come in. You can put your mask back on *after* the cameras and people got a good look at you. Not until.

Thoragaal

LuxLunae wrote: »

This is not an eso problem. It is an MMORPG problem. You will see in my forum history, I have brought this type of stuff up. I wanted to make YT vids on MMO economies and lifecycles. However, I am too lazy to fully write a script and make the vid. I said in one of my post, "If someone finds the formula to keep an MMO alive, they may be given an nobel prize" because, at that point they would have solved an age old economic problem. NO MMO has found this solution. NONE. At 50 years, they might have something. At 100 years, they are close. At 200 years, pass out the nobel prize.

Now here is the video I was talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLYQxdRbDes

Change the b-word (lol) with ZoS and see if it hears familiar.

Since MMOs can't have an end....holy crap...wait a minute is this an MMO problem or an internet engagement problem?
Think about it, even facebook can be seen to be the same....

You see, facebook, they keep you engaged by chaining you to a never ending scroll of data. They use things like likes, notifications, etc to keep feeding your brain short highs. You sustain the short highs by continuing to scroll down the endless texts and photos. Your brain is trying to consume it all but it can't. Your brain get's use to grabbing these short highs and it spills out into the real world. Facebook IS a DRUG....

Why do you think tiktok is so popular? Instead of watching 30 min vids, you can consume the short vid, get the high, and move on to the next....who has tiktok here? Who has facebook here?

I quit social media way back in 2014. MMOs will incorporoate what facebook did to our brains and look to make short term goals to give us a high. Then remove it and switch it to another.

The intenet, has made our brains more impulsive. Facebook is gathering the data we happily give away to create the ultimate use case for advertising. This will then be able to predict more than what you want to buy. Facebook will sell this persona (i don't know what it's called a human representation of data) to other companies and it will be incorporated into MMOs, Vid Games, Movies, EVERYTHING!!! Sorry I forgot google is doing the same as well....

Facebook created their dating app for that, google created stadia for that reason as well. It's all for your data. Once they have that persona, they can start making the MMO lifecycle extend passed 200 yrs. They won't need your feedback, they got the feedback from your raw unfiltered comments, thoughts, lust off the internet. (google was speaking to a prominent adult site for their data. They probably made a deal to use their YT algorithms to see what parts people are interested in)

When they obtain what you lust for, what you pay for and what you think....They have your decision making as a human....

Oh and I forgot, simply getting off the internet won't stop this. They have cameras in supermarkets that track peoples movements. AI can spot your face. Walmart, BestBuy, WholeFoods, etc will share the data with each other mark my words.

Presidential polls will be a thing of the past. They will predict easily with the persona.

I can't believe I didn't see how this all ties together...

They called me a madman...

I just thought this video might interest you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmXcjvL9VSc
Sam Vaknin is an author and known for self-help material on narcissistic personality disorder. In this video he brings up a lot of material related to social media and what it does to our brains. And yes, what social media is doing is the very same thing game companies have started tapping into as well. Achievements in games is one of those things for example.

Ri_Khan

This is what happens when you let gambling industry types make video games.

rfennell_ESO

mavfin wrote: »

Ignotus wrote: »

Before now, some banks wouldn't let you walk in with a hat or sunglasses, but now you're asked to wear a mask!

I will assure you that the bank(s) I work for will ask you to show your face if you come in. You can put your mask back on *after* the cameras and people got a good look at you. Not until.

You either don't work for any bank(s) or are just making things up.

They will remand you if you aren't wearing a mask and they won't ask you take it off at all.

Just went to two banks in the last week on a POA thing for a deceased relative and at no point did they even remotely do what you claimed. Keep in mind this was to facilitate the release of no small amounts of money...

rfennell_ESO

LuxLunae wrote: »

This is not an eso problem. It is an MMORPG problem. You will see in my forum history, I have brought this type of stuff up. I wanted to make YT vids on MMO economies and lifecycles. However, I am too lazy to fully write a script and make the vid. I said in one of my post, "If someone finds the formula to keep an MMO alive, they may be given an nobel prize" because, at that point they would have solved an age old economic problem. NO MMO has found this solution. NONE. At 50 years, they might have something. At 100 years, they are close. At 200 years, pass out the nobel prize.

Now here is the video I was talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLYQxdRbDes

Change the b-word (lol) with ZoS and see if it hears familiar.

Since MMOs can't have an end....holy crap...wait a minute is this an MMO problem or an internet engagement problem?
Think about it, even facebook can be seen to be the same....

You see, facebook, they keep you engaged by chaining you to a never ending scroll of data. They use things like likes, notifications, etc to keep feeding your brain short highs. You sustain the short highs by continuing to scroll down the endless texts and photos. Your brain is trying to consume it all but it can't. Your brain get's use to grabbing these short highs and it spills out into the real world. Facebook IS a DRUG....

Why do you think tiktok is so popular? Instead of watching 30 min vids, you can consume the short vid, get the high, and move on to the next....who has tiktok here? Who has facebook here?

I quit social media way back in 2014. MMOs will incorporoate what facebook did to our brains and look to make short term goals to give us a high. Then remove it and switch it to another.

The intenet, has made our brains more impulsive. Facebook is gathering the data we happily give away to create the ultimate use case for advertising. This will then be able to predict more than what you want to buy. Facebook will sell this persona (i don't know what it's called a human representation of data) to other companies and it will be incorporated into MMOs, Vid Games, Movies, EVERYTHING!!! Sorry I forgot google is doing the same as well....

Facebook created their dating app for that, google created stadia for that reason as well. It's all for your data. Once they have that persona, they can start making the MMO lifecycle extend passed 200 yrs. They won't need your feedback, they got the feedback from your raw unfiltered comments, thoughts, lust off the internet. (google was speaking to a prominent adult site for their data. They probably made a deal to use their YT algorithms to see what parts people are interested in)

When they obtain what you lust for, what you pay for and what you think....They have your decision making as a human....

Oh and I forgot, simply getting off the internet won't stop this. They have cameras in supermarkets that track peoples movements. AI can spot your face. Walmart, BestBuy, WholeFoods, etc will share the data with each other mark my words.

Presidential polls will be a thing of the past. They will predict easily with the persona.

I can't believe I didn't see how this all ties together...

They called me a madman...

Reality is that staying open is more important than anything else.

ZOS has tried the only likely method that works, story updates and new zones.

The only issue with ZOS is they have not basically addressed pvp in a very long time, at least not in the context of new content. Massive pvp has been dormant in development for years now.

Blizzard's method has been similar. But it requires a constant grind of gear as they are constantly adding new levels (or squishing old levels down and adding new levels).

MEBengalsFan2001

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Why does that guy come around with pvp again?
It´s quite simple. PvP is the only endgame (in terms of char progression) content that is player created.

Which is why we're stuck with this plague of high-profit yearly shooter releases (CoD, Battlefield, etc), because it frees the devs from actually having to work at making content, because they get all the free "content" that is "player created".


Personally, though, I find pvp (ignoring the Horrible Toxic Player problem) to be mind-numbingly repetitive. Two or more people hitting/shooting each other til they fall down, over and over and over, same as it ever was. An endless Groundhog Day of identical repetitive death & respawn.

(Did some Counterstrike / Quake / Unreal Tournament back when they were relatively new. I did the battleground pvp rank grind in WoW, back before Arenas, to rank 9 or 10. I stepped a foot in the pvp modes of a handful of games since then - Neverwinter, Secret World, Dark Zone in the Division, etc. Haven't set foot in pvp since. It's obnoxious. And, as I mentioned, stupidly repetitive, beyond the dreams of PvE content.)

I like game companies where the developer provides the development tool to its community for community generated content. Some of the better designed content came from the community and not the developer. NWO had this until last year and some of the best content was developed by players and not the developer. I see no issues with developers using player created content to extend their game, especially if the content is FREE. When content is package and cost us players money than it becomes a problem.

As for what the OP said, you can avoid quite a bit of being tracked by using smaller mom and pop stores and avoid purchasing items online or in larger retailers. The thing with tracking us though they are using that info to ensure that the companies are making and offering products that we are more incline to buy to reduce their overhead and increase their profits. It has been done for years now and it is only getting easier with increase in data that is available.

I play MMOs to escape reality for a bit. Living in the fake world isn't living; it is hiding. Hiding is fine in colder months if you don't enjoy the colder weather but with summer and warmer weather my time on the game will be minimal as there is just so much to do outside and that to me is living, enjoying the sun, the beaches, lakes, biking, walking, jogging, running, drives, camping, family, BBQ's, etc...

LuxLunae

Thoragaal wrote: »

I just thought this video might interest you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmXcjvL9VSc
Sam Vaknin is an author and known for self-help material on narcissistic personality disorder. In this video he brings up a lot of material related to social media and what it does to our brains. And yes, what social media is doing is the very same thing game companies have started tapping into as well. Achievements in games is one of those things for example.

That guy is on point although I do disagree with some of the stuff he said. I am halfway through. I stopped using social media back in 2014. I never owned a phone until 2017 (I barely use it lol as if it was made for social media or something.) Coming in june, I will be limiting my time on the internet/ random entertainment to 3-4 hrs per day. The other time will be used to learn and build stuff. I realized that I felt happy building software and seeing it work.Sitting down and thinking about the problem and making a solution was really fun. Now I want to go back and fire up my math and art skills. I almost forgot how good it felt to solve problems using my two hands because I was on the internet constantly wasting my time on it. Of course I couldnt do cold turkey. Honestly, I am a jack of all trades type of person. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. Now that I see how I can build software to sate my need to know all, I have decided this year to put my main knowledge into software/computer science.(I already had the degree but still wasn't going to commit) Now my ACM subscription allows me to use the internet for learning purposes, the way I should have been using it for.

Tapio75

One of the big things that has kepy me playing STO(Star Trek Online), is the fact that every mission can be done as many times you want with same character by yourself OR by others and all this with just one character.

Every other game i played has failed to give me this as well as enough freedom to create my character from scratch.

Mixing PVP and competitive gaming to the mix makes it wordse for the game, because that prevents quite a bit of freedom and forces players to endless cycle of "That is OP nerf it" cycle and then developers are in endless circle of "We need to balance this". It is all futile.

Games are also too easy now. You play through them to fast, because there is no learning curve to slowyou down or risk of death to slow you down.

Back in Classic WoW, i still have quests to do and levels to gain because its slow. Same was true on Wrath era. EvE online also delivers quite a bit of mental challenge and punishment mechanics to give risk vs gain scenarios. Risk vs gain scenario though, does not require PvP or competitive playing. It is just gradual increase of challenge and mechanics that change to give more difficulty and death penalty needs to be hars to give meaning to success.

That is my wiev. No end game as such, should ever exist, the game and character progression should never end but should not be a barrier either.

Thoragaal

LuxLunae wrote: »

I realized that I felt happy building software and seeing it work.Sitting down and thinking about the problem and making a solution was really fun. Now I want to go back and fire up my math and art skills. I almost forgot how good it felt to solve problems using my two hands because I was on the internet constantly wasting my time on it. Of course I couldnt do cold turkey. Honestly, I am a jack of all trades type of person. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. Now that I see how I can build software to sate my need to know all, I have decided this year to put my main knowledge into software/computer science.(I already had the degree but still wasn't going to commit) Now my ACM subscription allows me to use the internet for learning purposes, the way I should have been using it for.

I'm happy for you. Best of luck!

robertthebard

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Why does that guy come around with pvp again?
It´s quite simple. PvP is the only endgame (in terms of char progression) content that is player created.

Which is why we're stuck with this plague of high-profit yearly shooter releases (CoD, Battlefield, etc), because it frees the devs from actually having to work at making content, because they get all the free "content" that is "player created".


Personally, though, I find pvp (ignoring the Horrible Toxic Player problem) to be mind-numbingly repetitive. Two or more people hitting/shooting each other til they fall down, over and over and over, same as it ever was. An endless Groundhog Day of identical repetitive death & respawn.

(Did some Counterstrike / Quake / Unreal Tournament back when they were relatively new. I did the battleground pvp rank grind in WoW, back before Arenas, to rank 9 or 10. I stepped a foot in the pvp modes of a handful of games since then - Neverwinter, Secret World, Dark Zone in the Division, etc. Haven't set foot in pvp since. It's obnoxious. And, as I mentioned, stupidly repetitive, beyond the dreams of PvE content.)

I like game companies where the developer provides the development tool to its community for community generated content. Some of the better designed content came from the community and not the developer. NWO had this until last year and some of the best content was developed by players and not the developer. I see no issues with developers using player created content to extend their game, especially if the content is FREE. When content is package and cost us players money than it becomes a problem.

As for what the OP said, you can avoid quite a bit of being tracked by using smaller mom and pop stores and avoid purchasing items online or in larger retailers. The thing with tracking us though they are using that info to ensure that the companies are making and offering products that we are more incline to buy to reduce their overhead and increase their profits. It has been done for years now and it is only getting easier with increase in data that is available.

I play MMOs to escape reality for a bit. Living in the fake world isn't living; it is hiding. Hiding is fine in colder months if you don't enjoy the colder weather but with summer and warmer weather my time on the game will be minimal as there is just so much to do outside and that to me is living, enjoying the sun, the beaches, lakes, biking, walking, jogging, running, drives, camping, family, BBQ's, etc...

You mean the things like "hey, you're standing on the edge of a pit, and there's a bunch of mobs in it that can't hit you so you can level up" mods that were in NWO? Yeah, not exactly "quality" content, but was the type of exploitive content that got the system neutered. Too bad though, it was a great idea, but like all things, let a bunch of gamers get around it, and BOOM. I've got some friends that did some fantastic things in Neverwinter Nights, the BioWare version, and I would have loved to see what they came up with.

LuxLunae

It's funny how there are problems with greymoor. As was to be expected lol.

UppGRAYxDD

Wait....

K, continue...

Kiralyn2000

robertthebard wrote: »

You mean the things like "hey, you're standing on the edge of a pit, and there's a bunch of mobs in it that can't hit you so you can level up" mods that were in NWO? Yeah, not exactly "quality" content, but was the type of exploitive content that got the system neutered. Too bad though, it was a great idea, but like all things, let a bunch of gamers get around it, and BOOM. I've got some friends that did some fantastic things in Neverwinter Nights, the BioWare version, and I would have loved to see what they came up with.

Yeah, saw the same thing in the various 'create your own mission" systems in Star Trek Online and City Of Heroes (gee, all those games were from the same devs). XP farms, loot farms, when those got nerfed Achievement farms ("oh, you want the 'Killed 5000 Klingons' Achieve? Run my mission that has 10 consecutive rooms of Klingons standing around a pile of explosive barrels!"), etc.

Really fits the definition of "this is why we can't have nice things." :P

NeillMcAttack

Derra wrote: »

All the devs do it because they fail to come up with long term engaging/working endgame content.

If ZOS or Blizzard had managed to put in meaningful pvp content allowing for participation on all skill levels (this only works with chaotic open world large scale pvp imo) they wouldn´t have the issues trying to raise participation and player engagement with unfun/unhealthy grinds or rgn lotteries.

Why does that guy come around with pvp again?
It´s quite simple. PvP is the only endgame (in terms of char progression) content that is player created. Meaning IF it works it´s low maintenance for the developers - with at the same time HUGE engagement potential (it´s one of the last gameplay elements that requires the social aspect of mmos which keeps people hooked playing - with and against other players that become friends and mortal enemies).
PvE can´t provide that amount of content unless it´s unreasonably difficult to complete - which doesn´t fit for their playerbase - because it requires dev time to create.

What´s hard about that is providing a pvp environment that:
a) simply works
b) allows a large portion of the playerbase to participate in a meaningful way

ESO and virtually any game since daoc failed horribly at point a).
They did reasonably well regarding point b) in the beginning apart from obvious mistakes like huge grps, crown on grplead, mappin on group members (organisation reduces the ability to participate).
Which they then ironically managed to make worse by reducing population caps and massively increasing ttk over the course of the game (less pop means it´s easier to organize large parts of the remaining playerbase - see above about organisation // higher ttk meaning that lucky wins or wins on an unaware player become less frequent/likely resulting in a "never die" mentality instead of "die => better luck next time").

Most intelligent post I have read on the forums in a long while.

I remember the earlier days on PS4, PvP was so accessible not just because of its nature, but it was also the only group content that didn’t require a set number of players. You could grab anyone, traverse the overland or sewers, always on edge, always looking for the next exciting engagement, wether with PvE mobs or players, we are all newer and everything was a greater achievement. Friends and Guildies could drop in and out any time, go make a cuppa, sort dinner for the little ones whatever, no stress, no elitism, just fun and engaging gameplay. These are things endgame PvE just can’t offer the larger masses.

What I would love to see from Zeni, is for them to offer up map making tools, API’s, UI tools, PvE mob tools, whatever is required, to members of the community. So that people that understand and care could actually create an engaging and functioning mode of PvP.
Imagine a scaled down Cyro map with more intricate keeps, faster attack and defend games, VIP goals, or collect and deliver objectives, while fighting off enemy groups whilst pushing for victory. Cyro May have worked on its current scale when you could have 1200 players on the map, pre lighting patch.
Or imagine a MOBA type game mixed with a dungeon delver PvEvP experience, PvE mobs that drop upgrades, like mythic items, whilst trying to be first team to unlock some tomb for the power to clean up the remaining enemies. The possibilities are endless really.

So many of the best and most successful PvP games were built by actual players. DOTA a Warcraft III MOD started the MOBA genre. Arma MOD’s popularised the battle royale genre.

Alas we appear to be simply moving toward the Minimum Viable Product that keeps players more addicted than engaged.....

MEBengalsFan2001

robertthebard wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Why does that guy come around with pvp again?
It´s quite simple. PvP is the only endgame (in terms of char progression) content that is player created.

Which is why we're stuck with this plague of high-profit yearly shooter releases (CoD, Battlefield, etc), because it frees the devs from actually having to work at making content, because they get all the free "content" that is "player created".


Personally, though, I find pvp (ignoring the Horrible Toxic Player problem) to be mind-numbingly repetitive. Two or more people hitting/shooting each other til they fall down, over and over and over, same as it ever was. An endless Groundhog Day of identical repetitive death & respawn.

(Did some Counterstrike / Quake / Unreal Tournament back when they were relatively new. I did the battleground pvp rank grind in WoW, back before Arenas, to rank 9 or 10. I stepped a foot in the pvp modes of a handful of games since then - Neverwinter, Secret World, Dark Zone in the Division, etc. Haven't set foot in pvp since. It's obnoxious. And, as I mentioned, stupidly repetitive, beyond the dreams of PvE content.)

I like game companies where the developer provides the development tool to its community for community generated content. Some of the better designed content came from the community and not the developer. NWO had this until last year and some of the best content was developed by players and not the developer. I see no issues with developers using player created content to extend their game, especially if the content is FREE. When content is package and cost us players money than it becomes a problem.

As for what the OP said, you can avoid quite a bit of being tracked by using smaller mom and pop stores and avoid purchasing items online or in larger retailers. The thing with tracking us though they are using that info to ensure that the companies are making and offering products that we are more incline to buy to reduce their overhead and increase their profits. It has been done for years now and it is only getting easier with increase in data that is available.

I play MMOs to escape reality for a bit. Living in the fake world isn't living; it is hiding. Hiding is fine in colder months if you don't enjoy the colder weather but with summer and warmer weather my time on the game will be minimal as there is just so much to do outside and that to me is living, enjoying the sun, the beaches, lakes, biking, walking, jogging, running, drives, camping, family, BBQ's, etc...

You mean the things like "hey, you're standing on the edge of a pit, and there's a bunch of mobs in it that can't hit you so you can level up" mods that were in NWO? Yeah, not exactly "quality" content, but was the type of exploitive content that got the system neutered. Too bad though, it was a great idea, but like all things, let a bunch of gamers get around it, and BOOM. I've got some friends that did some fantastic things in Neverwinter Nights, the BioWare version, and I would have loved to see what they came up with.

NWN and NWN2 both had the toolset to do the same and those were quality mods. Another game, Legends of the Sword Coast, also tried but it was just a flop with the toolset. The campaign for that game wasn't bad for $20 game.

I mean some games for sale that were created by non gaming studio are really good mostly because the players creating them have a really good vision for the game and the tools now available to create these visions are very easy to take that vision and make a game from it.