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Pre-50 PvP Stealth Issue
Sange13
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I've been leveling a Necro in the pre-50 BGs and it's been pretty good for the most part, but I've encountered one key point of frustration that doesn't really happen in 50+ (generally speaking, but it still can). This issue is that stealth spam doesn't have a lot of great counters in the early levels for stam builds. Basically, my options are:
Expert Hunter (somewhat deep into Fighter's Guild tree)
Revealing Flare (quite deep into Alliance - Support tree)
Inner Light (easy access, but requires you to lose a bar slot to be a bad Expert Hunter)
Poisons (lose my enchants or option for better poisons--also gets expensive)
Note that this is not a "stealth is OP" complaint, but rather, the counterplay options require me to give up a lot more than it costs the other player in order to do anything about it. In fact, it provides them so much benefit that saying it costs them anything is a bit of a stretch, beyond the slot on the skill bar. Right now the stealth spam just feels cheesy. Having to grind Fighter's Guild means I also don't get to enjoy as much pre-50 PvP because I will be leveling too fast and out-scaling my gear to quickly, and it's a bad solution to a problem that has an easy fix available.
What I would like to see changed would actually be extremely easy--Just swap the Fighter's Guild level requirements (and position in tree) between Expert Hunter and Silver Bolts. This has a minimal effect on overall game balance, but makes leveling PvP somewhat more fair while providing and encouraging the counterplay elements that make PvP what it is.
Expert Hunter (somewhat deep into Fighter's Guild tree)
Revealing Flare (quite deep into Alliance - Support tree)
Inner Light (easy access, but requires you to lose a bar slot to be a bad Expert Hunter)
Poisons (lose my enchants or option for better poisons--also gets expensive)
Note that this is not a "stealth is OP" complaint, but rather, the counterplay options require me to give up a lot more than it costs the other player in order to do anything about it. In fact, it provides them so much benefit that saying it costs them anything is a bit of a stretch, beyond the slot on the skill bar. Right now the stealth spam just feels cheesy. Having to grind Fighter's Guild means I also don't get to enjoy as much pre-50 PvP because I will be leveling too fast and out-scaling my gear to quickly, and it's a bad solution to a problem that has an easy fix available.
What I would like to see changed would actually be extremely easy--Just swap the Fighter's Guild level requirements (and position in tree) between Expert Hunter and Silver Bolts. This has a minimal effect on overall game balance, but makes leveling PvP somewhat more fair while providing and encouraging the counterplay elements that make PvP what it is.
IGN: Sange-13
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Sange13✭✭✭Every build has its opposition costs. As you pointed out, you could slot inner light.
Since Expert Hunter does the same thing, but in Stam, it doesn't make sense that a stam build should have to slot Inner Light. As I said, there is an easy fix for this. Something else worth pointing out is that in leveling PvP you have to consider that bar space is further constrained by needed to have class skills on the bar to level them.IGN: Sange-131 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What I would like to see changed would actually be extremely easy--Just swap the Fighter's Guild level requirements (and position in tree) between Expert Hunter and Silver Bolts. This has a minimal effect on overall game balance, but makes leveling PvP somewhat more fair while providing and encouraging the counterplay elements that make PvP what it is.
That's a hard no. Silver Bolts is essential for PvE Tanking for any class that isn't magDK and the sooner people have access to it the better. They could perhaps make Expert Hunter second, ahead of Circle of Protection although that comes with cost as well as. Because stam builds would get a stun later which I think is more universal than the niche of de-stealthing targets. And not to mention that you have an alternative in Radiant Magelight from early on.
The best option is detect pots actually. And if those are CP-locked the best thing they could do is unlock their use to any level char. Then you don't have to waste skills.
EU | PC | AD0 -
Sange13✭✭✭I've honestly found Silver Bolts to not be that essential. The pull morph can be nice for tanking, sure, but it has very short range and there aren't any leveling dungeons that actually requires that mechanic. Expert Hunter is actually more universal since there are significantly more dps builds than tank builds out there and it provides Major Savagery. Beyond that, dps is usually the preferred build type for non-group content as well. Putting Expert Hunter first and Silver Bolts second would make sense too, but repeating the Magelight point (which is extremely weak) doesn't mean that Expert Hunter should be so deep into FG.IGN: Sange-130
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I've honestly found Silver Bolts to not be that essential. The pull morph can be nice for tanking, sure, but it has very short range and there aren't any leveling dungeons that actually requires that mechanic. Expert Hunter is actually more universal since there are significantly more dps builds than tank builds out there and it provides Major Savagery. Beyond that, dps is usually the preferred build type for non-group content as well. Putting Expert Hunter first and Silver Bolts second would make sense too, but repeating the Magelight point (which is extremely weak) doesn't mean that Expert Hunter should be so deep into FG.
What are you even talking about?
The range of Silver Leash is 22m, same as DK chains. Outside of that range mobs aren't even aggro'ed. And grouping mobs is an essential job of the tank in any dungeon otherwise it takes forever to kill the the ranged mobs 1-by-1. And how is Radiant Magelight with its 12m radius detection "extremely weak" but Expert Hunter with its 6m radius is somehow the solution to your problems?
From those statements alone I can tell you don't know or understand the skills well enough. Not to mention that the lack of tanks out there and abundance of dps when you want to form a group, only means the game needs to cater more for tanks and less to DPS. Instead of catering to DPS even more.Edited by Maulkin on May 18, 2020 12:54PMEU | PC | AD1 -
Zer0_CooL✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dear customer,
We gladly receive your criticism regarding early game counter play to cloak. While we have not the slightest interest to change basic game settings based on one players feedback, we highly reccomend you to have a look in to our crown store.
Besides plenty of exciting offers like mounts and surprise mechanics, you can find purchaseable skillines aswell as the required skillpoints/skyshards.
Greetings1 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They will not fulfill your request ever, not only because of the above listed reasons, but because every weapon/guild/world skill line with a traditional spammable was changed to have the spammable available in the first slot for the skill tree.
It should be obvious why.
The only skill tree that didnt follow this rule was annoyingly the psijic order.
Even with the new vampire spammable, they purposely chose to put it as the first available skill instead of the live equivalent.0 -
Sange13✭✭✭I've honestly found Silver Bolts to not be that essential. The pull morph can be nice for tanking, sure, but it has very short range and there aren't any leveling dungeons that actually requires that mechanic. Expert Hunter is actually more universal since there are significantly more dps builds than tank builds out there and it provides Major Savagery. Beyond that, dps is usually the preferred build type for non-group content as well. Putting Expert Hunter first and Silver Bolts second would make sense too, but repeating the Magelight point (which is extremely weak) doesn't mean that Expert Hunter should be so deep into FG.
What are you even talking about?
The range of Silver Leash is 22m, same as DK chains. Outside of that range mobs aren't even aggro'ed. And grouping mobs is an essential job of the tank in any dungeon otherwise it takes forever to kill the the ranged mobs 1-by-1. And how is Radiant Magelight with its 12m radius detection "extremely weak" but Expert Hunter with its 6m radius is somehow the solution to your problems?
From those statements alone I can tell you don't know or understand the skills well enough. Not to mention that the lack of tanks out there and abundance of dps when you want to form a group, only means the game needs to cater more for tanks and less to DPS. Instead of catering to DPS even more.
You misunderstand. The argument to use Magelight was weak--not the skill itself. The detection range differential is fine because most stam are melee anyway, but the difference in the buff it provides is the main point. Also, for tanking, you don't have to group every single mob. Most people--even in pvp gear--can easily kill ranged mobs quickly. You can also use LOS and aggro the melees into the ranged. There are lots of reasons pull isn't required to tank well.IGN: Sange-130 -
Sange13✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »They will not fulfill your request ever, not only because of the above listed reasons, but because every weapon/guild/world skill line with a traditional spammable was changed to have the spammable available in the first slot for the skill tree.
It should be obvious why.
The only skill tree that didnt follow this rule was annoyingly the psijic order.
Even with the new vampire spammable, they purposely chose to put it as the first available skill instead of the live equivalent.
I don't find it obvious that these should be first considering they don't rank up through exp the way class skills do. It makes sense why class skills would be this way, but these other skills? A passive buff actually makes more sense than a spammable.IGN: Sange-130 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The best option is detect pots actually. And if those are CP-locked the best thing they could do is unlock their use to any level char. Then you don't have to waste skills.
^This.^
The radius on the stealth detect pots is still generous at low levels (see level 30 example below) ... so @Maulkin's suggestion is a good one.
Whether you want to replace whatever pots you're running now, @Sange13, is up to you.
Getting the skill points to level up alchemy is not difficult (other than being time-consuming). Skyshards are the best option since they require little XP to get them.
Don't forget the game has skill line and skyshard purchases in the Crown Store. So, as long as you have at least one character with completed zone skyshards or Fighter's Guild, the purchase option is there. That way you don't use any XP in the process.
One note of caution with all of this: When players start asking advanced questions about the nuances of stealth and their counterplay, slow XP burn, and skill options between Fighter's Guild and Mages Guild ... that's usually a sign that the player needs to graduate to Veteran PvP Battlegrounds.
It's well-documented in the forums that new PvP players don't appreciate fighting Veteran player "twinks" in below-50 Battlegrounds.
You might be surprised how well you do in vet Battleground PvP, @Sange13.
For me, I just level new characters in the Cyrodill Alliance-locked campaign now ... because I enjoy the challenge. That's what my Khajiit Magicka Necromancer has been doing (currently low levels).
Edited by Taleof2Cities on May 18, 2020 5:59PM1 -
Sange13✭✭✭I think you took Maulkin's attempt at discrediting me a bit too seriously. I'm CP 500 on PC and nearly 400 on PS4. I'm familiar with the game. His argument was nonsense, except for the part that maybe having both EH and SB before COP might be a good idea.
As for using pots, it isn't that I couldn't do it, but I disagree it's the better option because it ruins my sustain and ability to burst heal if needed. That's why I was looking for another option, but most of the good options are actually quite deep into those skill lines and it feels terrible to have to use one that doesn't synergize with my build (Magelight). Meanwhile, stealth is accessible quite early, is spammable, and grants huge bonuses on the attack made from stealth. The option for better fitting counter-play earlier in the progression seems pretty reasonable, and I still haven't seen any good reason that shouldn't be the case.IGN: Sange-130 -
SebDeTyra✭✭✭You're a stamcro, the most broken class in the game , complaining about nightblades, the absolute worst class in the game? Seriously?3 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yeah, @Sange13, with 900 combined CP on both platforms it’s probably time to move on to Vet Battlegrounds ... don’t you think?2 -
Sange13✭✭✭You're still missing the point. Ad hominem all day, but there still isn't a good reason that Magelight is tier 1 and Exp Hunter isn't.IGN: Sange-130
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Sange13✭✭✭
It doesn't level when you're doing PvP and going out of your way to level it means you are spending your leveling experience on that instead of in PvP. Magelight also doesn't synergize with the build at all, which makes it a really awkward choice.IGN: Sange-130 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
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It doesn't level when you're doing PvP and going out of your way to level it means you are spending your leveling experience on that instead of in PvP. Magelight also doesn't synergize with the build at all, which makes it a really awkward choice.
Fighter's guild levels up amazingly fast. I leveled it up to max in less than an hour. For the skill we are talking about it would be much less.
I think @Maulkin said it best.
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Sange13✭✭✭
It doesn't level when you're doing PvP and going out of your way to level it means you are spending your leveling experience on that instead of in PvP. Magelight also doesn't synergize with the build at all, which makes it a really awkward choice.
Fighter's guild levels up amazingly fast. I leveled it up to max in less than an hour. For the skill we are talking about it would be much less.
I think @Maulkin said it best.
Again, leveling up FG that way costs you exp that you could be playing in PvP. Also, quoting Maulkin only shows a lack of proper evaluation of the argument or you would agree that the provided arguments are bad.IGN: Sange-130 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Again, leveling up FG that way costs you exp that you could be playing in PvP. Also, quoting Maulkin only shows a lack of proper evaluation of the argument or you would agree that the provided arguments are bad.
Your choice is clear, @Sange1:
a. You can accept forum-goers' advice in your thread here ... including my option of using detect pots.
OR
b. You get to lead the discussion with ZOS on why you want the game changed to cater to your specific playstyle. Where the underlying context is an experienced player with a combined 900CP still playing in under-50 Battlegrounds.0 -
Sange13✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Again, leveling up FG that way costs you exp that you could be playing in PvP. Also, quoting Maulkin only shows a lack of proper evaluation of the argument or you would agree that the provided arguments are bad.
Your choice is clear, @Sange1:
a. You can accept forum-goers' advice in your thread here ... including my option of using detect pots.
OR
b. You get to lead the discussion with ZOS on why you want the game changed to cater to your specific playstyle. Where the underlying context is an experienced player with a combined 900CP still playing in under-50 Battlegrounds.
a. That's a terrible option for obvious reasons.
b. My own experience isn't actually relevant beyond dispelling the attempt to ad hominem me as some "new" player. The issue is objectively there, regardless of the the experience of whomever wants to participate in those BGs.
It's precisely those sorts of fallacies which are why I keep saying the provided arguments so far are bad ones.IGN: Sange-130 -
Sange13✭✭✭I've been doing that where I can afford to, but it's *extremely* unreliable, especially as the stealth-in and stealth-out animations have a lag time that makes it so they can restealth immediately upon taking damage and never becoming visible to me, despite the damage readout showing a hit. It's a good workaround against ambushers, but it doesn't do anything against the stealth spammers.IGN: Sange-130