Add a Life Drain to Blood Frenzy

Vevvev

Blood Frenzy is designed so you don't keep it on 100% of the time which is fine, but in its current iteration it forces you to waste time healing yourself with non-vampiric abilities. Be nice if the base version of the ability gave you a very small health drain effect where you get healed for a small amount of the damage that you do. It'll keep you on the offensive, which is the primary goal of this ability, and gives you a longer window of time to be attacking your foe before you need to use other heals or turn the thing off.

wild_kmacdb16_ESO

It seems to me they are trying to shoehorn in some sort of mandatory interaction with Drain Essence.

Alpheu5

They said they want there to be a synergy with the melee spammable, but if that's the case I don't see why they don't apply a heal to it à la Swallow Soul. I don't see anybody having a health drain using a skill that costs health, and for what? A single guaranteed crit before you have to heal since you're now below 50%?

Before the change I was able to sustain the non-scaling morph on a Nightblade DPS with Swallow Soul and found the scaling morph nice on a healer, but now it's only ever feasible on a healer.

Mortiis13

wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »

It seems to me they are trying to shoehorn in some sort of mandatory interaction with Drain Essence.

Would be okay if this skill would be a competitive heal with low dmg and a shorter duration. 3 sec channel in a fast combat system like eso is a design fail for me. That are 3 la, 3 skills for a useless skill.

Max 1.5 sec. channel. Heal power of a full burst heal under 50% health, half the dmg of a spamable.

Heal increase on higher stages to 1.25 heal power of a burst heal on stage 4.

And unholy **** make the animation like the npc ones without the air lift...

Sephyr

wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »

It seems to me they are trying to shoehorn in some sort of mandatory interaction with Drain Essence.

It does, but they also did that poorly. It's not all that powerful and I don't think CP could help with that. Especially since in any PvP scenario, all they have to do is bash you to cancel that out. Meanwhile Magicka Nightblades via Swallow Soul? Way more of a benefit and there's really no need to use Drain Essence with them, even with the morph that adds ult.

DarkPicture

So u want to buff for never ending dps (weapon and spell dmg) buff + life drain to keep it forever? Yea sounds balanced

Vevvev

Browart wrote: »

So u want to buff for never ending dps (weapon and spell dmg) buff + life drain to keep it forever? Yea sounds balanced

That's physically impossible even if they added a life drain. I'm only asked for a very small value because eventually the skill will cost so much it'll equal your entire health pool or cost just enough to leave you open for an execution.

DarkPicture

Vevvev wrote: »

Browart wrote: »

So u want to buff for never ending dps (weapon and spell dmg) buff + life drain to keep it forever? Yea sounds balanced

That's physically impossible even if they added a life drain. I'm only asked for a very small value because eventually the skill will cost so much it'll equal your entire health pool or cost just enough to leave you open for an execution.

Skill is already OP, life drain would make it slot or go home.

Paradisius

Browart wrote: »

So u want to buff for never ending dps (weapon and spell dmg) buff + life drain to keep it forever? Yea sounds balanced

With the recent changes, there isnt a cap. So you cannot ever have this up more than 90% of the time (I tested this by using sated fury until it killed me, healed me back up, and reapplied) so adding a source of life steal to the ability does increase the uptime, but never forever. If anything, it makes it reasonable for it to have an uncapped cost increase of +20% per second, life drain would make it sustain longer than 10 seconds.

Even the prior iteration of Frenzy, Simmering would only reach a 50~60% uptime in a real fight because of how hard it is to make sure you dont kill yourself in a fight with the health drain going on, and Sated Fury was only marginally higher in uptime. Besides, its not like Vampiric drain is going to sustain you like they showed off in their "cool" Vampire trailer.

DarkPicture

Paradisius wrote: »

Browart wrote: »

So u want to buff for never ending dps (weapon and spell dmg) buff + life drain to keep it forever? Yea sounds balanced

With the recent changes, there isnt a cap. So you cannot ever have this up more than 90% of the time (I tested this by using sated fury until it killed me, healed me back up, and reapplied) so adding a source of life steal to the ability does increase the uptime, but never forever. If anything, it makes it reasonable for it to have an uncapped cost increase of +20% per second, life drain would make it sustain longer than 10 seconds.

Even the prior iteration of Frenzy, Simmering would only reach a 50~60% uptime in a real fight because of how hard it is to make sure you dont kill yourself in a fight with the health drain going on, and Sated Fury was only marginally higher in uptime. Besides, its not like Vampiric drain is going to sustain you like they showed off in their "cool" Vampire trailer.

The idea of this skill is to get short dmg buff for consume your health, if u want to keep long time its not a good idea. People want to cheese this skill as much as possible and then go to forums and crying thats it drains too much hp.

Paradisius

Browart wrote: »

The idea of this skill is to get short dmg buff for consume your health, if u want to keep long time its not a good idea. People want to cheese this skill as much as possible and then go to forums and crying thats it drains too much hp.

I fully understand the purpose of the skill. Its just that it fails at it. This is coming from someone who has spent hours testing 6.0.3 Simmering Frenzy, it can work. That much is not being questioned. What is being questioned is the risk reward. Is the weapon and spell damage, the requirement of slotting a self heal to spam instead of a dps ability worth it? The answer is no. I can make it to where I only toggle Simmering on during my front bar rotation, turn it off when I switch to my back bar, turn it back on when I switch back. But why should I? the end result was me having only marginally better dps than just dropping the ability and slotting a dps skill.

So in short, If I get around the same dps as just slotting a dps ability, without the need to slot a self heal or prismatic cost reduction in hopes of lessening the risk, why should I even use blood frenzy? Adding a life drain would make it sustain long enough to not be a hindrance. You would still need a self heal, and you would still need to toggle it off, but you could have it up long enough to make a more meaningful difference. If im paying such a large health cost for a buff I want it to not end up just "marginally better" (side note: this is at stage 4 vampirism costs, so I cant reduce it further unless I wear Vampire Lord, which just isnt worth it.)

DarkPicture

Paradisius wrote: »

Browart wrote: »

The idea of this skill is to get short dmg buff for consume your health, if u want to keep long time its not a good idea. People want to cheese this skill as much as possible and then go to forums and crying thats it drains too much hp.

I fully understand the purpose of the skill. Its just that it fails at it. This is coming from someone who has spent hours testing 6.0.3 Simmering Frenzy, it can work. That much is not being questioned. What is being questioned is the risk reward. Is the weapon and spell damage, the requirement of slotting a self heal to spam instead of a dps ability worth it? The answer is no. I can make it to where I only toggle Simmering on during my front bar rotation, turn it off when I switch to my back bar, turn it back on when I switch back. But why should I? the end result was me having only marginally better dps than just dropping the ability and slotting a dps skill.

So in short, If I get around the same dps as just slotting a dps ability, without the need to slot a self heal or prismatic cost reduction in hopes of lessening the risk, why should I even use blood frenzy? Adding a life drain would make it sustain long enough to not be a hindrance. You would still need a self heal, and you would still need to toggle it off, but you could have it up long enough to make a more meaningful difference. If im paying such a large health cost for a buff I want it to not end up just "marginally better" (side note: this is at stage 4 vampirism costs, so I cant reduce it further unless I wear Vampire Lord, which just isnt worth it.)

Well in pvp u always have self heal so u not wasting any slot e.g. surge, ritual, also u can always use reduce glyph cost on your jewels ( they added tristat btw). About prismatic in the past not a lot of people were using it even if most of people were vampire.

Jeremy

wild_kmacdb16_ESO wrote: »

It seems to me they are trying to shoehorn in some sort of mandatory interaction with Drain Essence.

Possibly. But if that was their intention I would contend it failed miserably.

Because the problem with that approach is Drain Essence does such ____ damage it's not worth using offensively, not even with Blood Frenzy up. So basically all it ends up doing for Drain Essence is making it less effective as a heal - which is risky enough now that they took away its stun effect, especially in PvP. So basically all combining Blood Frenzy and Drain Essence does is get you killed, because you'll be doing crap damage and crap healing essentially making you fodder.

The only use this ability has that I can tell is temporary boosting your offense against stunned or tanked enemies during moments you're not taking any damage. So it's realistic application out in the real video game world is so incredibly limited I don't believe it justifies its own existence.

Maybe on a game that didn't have such a limited capacity for skills it might be alright. But it's hard for me to imagine anyone giving up a precious skill slot for an ability that has such a limited function.

Paradisius

Browart wrote: »

Well in pvp u always have self heal so u not wasting any slot e.g. surge, ritual, also u can always use reduce glyph cost on your jewels ( they added tristat btw). About prismatic in the past not a lot of people were using it even if most of people were vampire.

The prismatic cost reduction is on the jewelry (thats what I was talking about), it helps but at that point you lose out on damage. If I fully invest into it sure my blood frenzy is cheaper, but i lost a spell damage enchant for each cost reduction I place on it. And in PvP this will be worse, because the battle spirit got changed to heal even less, so good luck upkeeping that on most characters. at stage 4 it drains 1.4k health on the tool tip, increased by 20% per tick without a cap. Now, a prismatic cost reduction glyph reduces all costs by 133 (213 with golden infused trait) So yeah you could put in a couple infused prismatic cost reduction glyphs. But now you lose out on 2 spell damage enchants, thus devaluing Blood Frenzy.

All of this is without even mention the second you get cced in Cyro pvp with this toggled on you will not recover (assuming you can even toggle it properly with the way cyro is right now)

navystylz_ESO

Paradisius wrote: »

Browart wrote: »

Well in pvp u always have self heal so u not wasting any slot e.g. surge, ritual, also u can always use reduce glyph cost on your jewels ( they added tristat btw). About prismatic in the past not a lot of people were using it even if most of people were vampire.

The prismatic cost reduction is on the jewelry (thats what I was talking about), it helps but at that point you lose out on damage. If I fully invest into it sure my blood frenzy is cheaper, but i lost a spell damage enchant for each cost reduction I place on it. And in PvP this will be worse, because the battle spirit got changed to heal even less, so good luck upkeeping that on most characters. at stage 4 it drains 1.4k health on the tool tip, increased by 20% per tick without a cap. Now, a prismatic cost reduction glyph reduces all costs by 133 (213 with golden infused trait) So yeah you could put in a couple infused prismatic cost reduction glyphs. But now you lose out on 2 spell damage enchants, thus devaluing Blood Frenzy.

All of this is without even mention the second you get cced in Cyro pvp with this toggled on you will not recover (assuming you can even toggle it properly with the way cyro is right now)

At this point we can only wait until this crap show goes live and people get to play with it intimately to see just how bad it is. If you're going to penalize the crap out of someone for having a skill line, the return for using that line has to exceed what you can get normally. Why would anyone take a bunch of penalties, make it so that a CC or a mistake might kill you, and more micromanagement of skills if they can achieve the same thing without any of that?

VoidCommander

What this ability NEEDS more than anything is to allow other players to heal you. Have it reduce the healing they give you by 80%,70%60%50% in line with increasing vamp stages. This would finally give end-game healers an actual reason to run lots of over-healing through abilities and armor sets. Imagine healers dropping olorime from their toolkits in favor of something like Hiti’s in order to support an entire group full of vampire masochists who are buffing their spell/weapon damage by ~1000.

Instead the ability is so costly, that if a magcro ran intensive mender before their spammable phase and activated blood frenzy, they would suffer a damage loss compared to if they just didn’t use blood frenzy at all. This is why magplars, in my opinion and testing, are the only class that can experience a net INCREASE in damage from using this ability.

This is because they can activate frenzy right before they start spamming puncturing sweeps, and not only heal themselves through the frenzy with extreme ease, but also any outside damage they might take. Once its time to reapply dots, simply turn off frenzy.

Magsorcs and magblades also have some nice passive healing that doesn’t require casting abilities that a dps wouldn’t otherwise run. The key reason why I would not reconmend anyone even trying to use blood frenzy with these classes in content is because of their limited scope of healing. If all they needed to heal through was a simple frenzy dot, they would be just fine. Problem is that there are dozens of things that will damage a dps, and healers need to be able to heal magblades and magsorcs to keep them alive (otherwise healers would be completely obsolete. Hence why frenzy should allow very limited outside healing).

Vanos444

Vevvev wrote: »

Browart wrote: »

So u want to buff for never ending dps (weapon and spell dmg) buff + life drain to keep it forever? Yea sounds balanced

That's physically impossible even if they added a life drain. I'm only asked for a very small value because eventually the skill will cost so much it'll equal your entire health pool or cost just enough to leave you open for an execution.

Ah! You are saying in terms of PvP. But the one you quoted is a PvE'er, hence his post.

Imo, the vampire abilities aren't suitable of any content but just RP.
Mist was my initial concern, but now I found a way to overcome it and that's CURING .

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. Please remember that while it’s alright to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable on our forums.

BattleAxe

Has anyone actually considered how these changes benefit support roles or is dps the only role that matters?

Hear me out the vampire changes frenzy in particular really benefits tanks and healers tanks will be able to sustain frenzy much longer than either dps or healer effectively. Say boss is not far from death and tank is only one alive and there is no time for tank to resurrect an ally the tank can activate frenzy and possibly finish off boss same in the case if healer is last alive. Also as a side bonus this allows both tank and healer roles the ability to solo more content. (Full tank clear vma anyone)

All I’m getting at is instead of looking at changes from only one angle perhaps step back and see how they can be beneficial to a role.

Vevvev

BattleAxe wrote: »

Has anyone actually considered how these changes benefit support roles or is dps the only role that matters?

Hear me out the vampire changes frenzy in particular really benefits tanks and healers tanks will be able to sustain frenzy much longer than either dps or healer effectively. Say boss is not far from death and tank is only one alive and there is no time for tank to resurrect an ally the tank can activate frenzy and possibly finish off boss same in the case if healer is last alive. Also as a side bonus this allows both tank and healer roles the ability to solo more content. (Full tank clear vma anyone)

All I’m getting at is instead of looking at changes from only one angle perhaps step back and see how they can be beneficial to a role.

Well Frenzy before 6.0.3 actually did help healers. The cost increase was not infinite and since they are the ones doing the healing they didn't have to worry about the "Only you can heal yourself" part. After the 6.0.3 change the cost increases by 20% infinitely at base and makes it so you cannot leave it on forever. A healer would benefit more from slotting another heal over time than putting this ability on their bar. Also healers like myself always have at least 1-2 damage dealing abilities just for those scenarios since healing and damage scale off the same stats.

As for tanks... I don't know. I have every tool to keep myself alive at my disposal instead abilities to dish out damage. Odds are you have abilities like puncture and inner fire slotted which are not damage dealing abilities by any stretch of the imagination. Blood Frenzy won't give you a whole lot of damage to these abilities at the cost of around 1,800+ health a second being drained.

thegreat_one

Worst part is u can still have people cast heals on u with this on, effectively wasting a heal.

Josira

Just replace the skill entirely with something else. holy *** this whole rework has been the laziest thing ive seen in eso.
Old rehashed animations that have bad visual bug(s),a lazy reskin of an existing ult,and then this abomination of a skill that is not vampiric at all.
no I will not get over that quote from Rich Lambert. I wont. its downright insulting both his intelligence if he has any and the viewers intelligence,having to hear about 'it ticking all the boxes'
what boxes?
what ones?

Vevvev

Didn't expect this thread of mine to get revived!

Josira wrote: »

no I will not get over that quote from Rich Lambert. I wont. its downright insulting both his intelligence if he has any and the viewers intelligence,having to hear about 'it ticking all the boxes'
what boxes?
what ones?

And I agree with you there. This ability is anything but vampiric, which is the reason I suggested adding a life drain to it. I have no qualms with it getting replaced completely though.