ZOS: Stamcros and Magblades shouldn't even exist within the same game in their current states.

mav1234 · May 15

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

mav1234 wrote: »

I would accept that you think stamblade is 10/12, magblade 11/12, with magcro at 12/12. is that what you are saying?

What I'm saying is that aside from MagSorc, MagPlar, and maybe StamCro, everyone else is so close that it's hard to even make a ranking.

The reason I got involved in this thread at all is because I'm tired of Nightblades claiming their class is D or F rank when it's really more like a B (along with most of the other classes).

it is hard to make a ranking in any game, but what is easy to do is to place magblade and stamsorc at or near the bottom of their respective class types.

every. single. class. has players that say their class is D or F rank. even mag sorcs. the reason you see more of them from nbs is that their class is in a very bad place relative to other classes and to where it used to be; they got hit with significant buff/debuff pruning that nobody bothered to apply to other classes.

the1andonlyskwex · May 15

No other classes got buff/debuff pruning because no other classes had multiple sources of the same buffs.

mav1234 · May 15

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

No other classes got buff/debuff pruning because no other classes had multiple sources of the same buffs.

what were the multiple sources that nightblades had of minor beserk?
edit: or minor vitality?

the1andonlyskwex · May 15

mav1234 wrote: »

what were the multiple sources that nightblades had of minor beserk?

Oh, I thought you were referring to the change where they got rid of all the duplicate sources of major expedition and minor maim.

Sometimes they just nerf skills because they're overpowered. The specific language from the patch notes appears to be:

Nightblades traditionally, while masters of high single target damage and a wide toolkit, were given too many potent tools on skills they'd continue using even without added bonuses. We've removed the Minor Berserk bonus from this ability since its overall performance is roughly where it should be comparatively to other abilities, and we've introduced a healing bonus to it to help the Nightblade class gain access to more high-risk staying power. Now, the caster will want to ensure their target hasn't prepared themselves with defenses, otherwise the heal will return an unsubstantial amount. Additionally, they must be in the range of their opponent where they are most susceptible to risk.

So they didn't just take away minor berserk, they replaced it with a heal. Additionally, they gave Lotus Fan minor vulnerability (which is actually better for team play) in the same patch, so it's not like it was all nerfs.

Nightblades have had a lot of perplexingly powerful abilities over the years. I'll never forget when I realized that Funnel Health was healing more than Mutagen (now Radiating Regeneration), while dealing the same amount of damage as other ranged spammables and costing half as much as either. That's obviously been changed though.

Czekoludek · May 15

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

@mav1234 I don't have my own tier list, but here's a recent one from someone I think is fairly well respected:

He has magblade at a close 11/12 and stamblade at 8/12.

If you were to make a list based on the nightblades posting in this forum, stamblade would be 11/12 and magblade would be a distant 12/12, which is just nonsense.

Also, keep in mind that there's always going to be someone at the bottom of these kinds of rankings, and that doesn't necessarily make them bad. As things stand right now, things are pretty balanced, compared to what they could be.

I don't like this ranking as it have a lot of really weird ratings (stamden so low when they actually are op af). @Isth3reno1esle did great ranking splited into 3 categories. @Unified_Gaming had another quite good.

Drdeath20 · May 15

Vanos444 wrote: »

Btw, OP.
Stamcros are good in PvE but Magblade is still below average in PvE. Compared to other classes.

I dont think that bcz a class can run and hide amazingly in BGS it should be nerfed but Magblade will be BiS damage dealers when harrowstrom drops.

Certain other class specs should recieve small pve buffs to get within an acceptable 5-10% range.

ZOS_AntonioP · May 15

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for baiting and flaming, content that is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment or action on one's own account.

Thank you for understanding.

MartiniDaniels · May 16

LMAO, people are seriously comparing magblade to stamcro

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

No other classes got buff/debuff pruning because no other classes had multiple sources of the same buffs.

What buffs/debuffs has to do with cast time on class bread-and-butter ultimate?

Ysbriel · May 16

I like how people here say “just use cloak”. everything in this game breaks you out of the cloak, up to and including skeever farts.
Anybody who thinks that Magblades are a serious threat in PvP are the ones who built their characters wrong and those are the ones i love the most. Every time i get one of those on BGs i get hungry eyes because i know when they end in my kill count is a express ticket for them to come here to cry. If you been watching videos of someone doing 1vs X with a Magblade and getting lots of kills, well guess what little Jimmy, he’s farming kills on people with bad builds. That astral bow you get after five light attacks that were dodged, will either miss, be dodged or land in a totally different enemy you weren’t even targeting. Magblades are in such a horrible position that i even had to put Maw of the infernal as a monster set to have the daedroth keep people away from me and that is getting the nerf hammer.

A class that relies on stealth but the stealth is easily broken, its been nerfed into being a “brawler” but the class skills are slow , provide no burst and are totally hit and miss.
I can chase down an oponent with my MagDk and land each and every single Whip cracked at them but will miss 4 out of five swallow soul.
Trying to be a melee magblade is only a dream come true when facing low MMR horribly built enemies. And less not forget how horrible the execution skill is 🤮

Karmanorway · May 16

Stamsorc 5 years here, and i wholeheartedly agree.

Put on TrK and BRP dualwield backbar, then NMA + Fury, then you will be fine. Still forced to use slowswing though, so stamblades will still be a problem... Yeah magsorcs got all the good stuff hope they change it someday, until then im sticking with red dead online, this game is dead to me lol

Draevik · May 16

So all of you who play Nightblades die constantly to good players??? Did all of you NB mains quit your NB, what are you playing now?

I would love to see all of you NB hunters post videos of you against good NBs in BGs demonstrating how to beat them. And no I don't want to see videos from other players. I want to see them from all of you awesome NB hunters.

Vanos444 · May 16

Draevik wrote: »

So all of you who play Nightblades die constantly to good players??? Did all of you NB mains quit your NB, what are you playing now?

Templar

Drdeath20 · May 16

Vanos444 wrote: »

Draevik wrote: »

So all of you who play Nightblades die constantly to good players??? Did all of you NB mains quit your NB, what are you playing now?

Templar

Oof!

Czekoludek · May 16

Draevik wrote: »

So all of you who play Nightblades die constantly to good players??? Did all of you NB mains quit your NB, what are you playing now?

MagDk for PvE, stamcro PvP

BlueRaven · May 16

Draevik wrote: »

So all of you who play Nightblades die constantly to good players??? Did all of you NB mains quit your NB, what are you playing now?

I would love to see all of you NB hunters post videos of you against good NBs in BGs demonstrating how to beat them. And no I don't want to see videos from other players. I want to see them from all of you awesome NB hunters.

And I would love to see NB discussion involve more then just pvp.

When I do trials I use absolutely zero of the nb kit. When I am on my sorc I use plenty. Dk? A lot of useful stuff.

But on these forums all I see is pvp discussions. I don’t care if someone in pvp feels a class is overpowered or not. As far as I am concerned most pvp players feel all other classes are op and theirs is underpowered. That’s all I see, a circular discussion that goes nowhere. What’s more they push for changes without care about how they effect pve.

Well I am sick of it. I am sick of useless racial passives. I am sick of useless class abilities. I am sick of seeing complaints about snipe and cloak that in the end have absolutely nothing to do with the snipe or cloak!

All of these horrible combat changes because pvp players need to feel invincible all the time.

Draevik · May 16

Czekoludek wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Incorrect. The way to use Magelight and Camou Hunter correctly is to cast those skills while the nightblade is right in your face. All skills internally run on a pulse. I think it's probably a one second pulse for those ones. If a nightblade attempts to cloak while you have Magelight / Camou running, they are exposed a fraction of a second later when the skill pulses. They suibsequently can't cloak for 3 seconds, even if your Magelight / Camou Hunter was just running out.

I stand corrected on that one. I'm not sure how spending 5k resources and a GCD to preemptively defend against a skill that only costs 4k resources works out favorably for anybody though. It seems like using a reveal preemptively just makes it a lot less likely for the Nightblade to need Cloak at all.

Also, it seems kind of broken that according to nightblades, the only way to beat them is to specifically equip capabilities that are ONLY useful against nightblades.

I wonder what would happen if Dragonknights had an ability that could only be countered by specially equipping an ability that's not otherwise useful (e.g. by equipping non-projectile attacks).

Since when aoe skills are useless? Or camo Hunter that gives you berserk? Or inner light that increase your max magicka?
The problem is, most counters of Nb main defence will be something that you have normaly on bar. No sacrfice is needed to specialize in Nb killing.

Except camo hunter doesn't even work when you are right on top of them

BlueRaven wrote: »

Draevik wrote: »

So all of you who play Nightblades die constantly to good players??? Did all of you NB mains quit your NB, what are you playing now?

I would love to see all of you NB hunters post videos of you against good NBs in BGs demonstrating how to beat them. And no I don't want to see videos from other players. I want to see them from all of you awesome NB hunters.

And I would love to see NB discussion involve more then just pvp.

When I do trials I use absolutely zero of the nb kit. When I am on my sorc I use plenty. Dk? A lot of useful stuff.

But on these forums all I see is pvp discussions. I don’t care if someone in pvp feels a class is overpowered or not. As far as I am concerned most pvp players feel all other classes are op and theirs is underpowered. That’s all I see, a circular discussion that goes nowhere. What’s more they push for changes without care about how they effect pve.

Well I am sick of it. I am sick of useless racial passives. I am sick of useless class abilities. I am sick of seeing complaints about snipe and cloak that in the end have absolutely nothing to do with the snipe or cloak!

All of these horrible combat changes because pvp players need to feel invincible all the time.

Fair enough I feel you there. ZoS should take the smarter approach and have a toggle on abilities and gear so they can independently be balanced. They did this in EQ2 and it worked fairly well... god I miss that games PVP lol.

Drdeath20 · May 16

BlueRaven wrote: »

Draevik wrote: »

And I would love to see NB discussion involve more then just pvp.

When I do trials I use absolutely zero of the nb kit. When I am on my sorc I use plenty. Dk? A lot of useful stuff.

But on these forums all I see is pvp discussions. I don’t care if someone in pvp feels a class is overpowered or not. As far as I am concerned most pvp players feel all other classes are op and theirs is underpowered. That’s all I see, a circular discussion that goes nowhere. What’s more they push for changes without care about how they effect pve.

I mean maybe your playing nightblade wrong? In trials i have only 3/4 non nightblade skills/ultimates (wall of ele, barbed trap, shooting star, force pulse) Plus next patch magblades just got a massive buff when pets/shades will get affected by jewelry. Thats atleast a 7% bump in dps.

Sneakers · May 16

fred4 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Maybe the problem is people play the wrong play-style, I assume most Mageblades you fight are Light Armor wearers? ever fought an Immovable using Heavy Armor wearing Mageblade? that is a different ballgame when the Nightblades defenses are actually high enough that they can out-heal your damage with Swallow Soul which at the same time will deal damage to you.

This is the setup that I use and I encountered a Sorcerer in Cyrodiil who panicked and retreated when they realized their "Streak + Haunting Curse + Mage's Wrath Combo" did nothing against me because I was unable to be stunned which means they could not knock me down and thus I was able to keep up my Health Siphoning with they could not withstand.

They didn't panic. They copped on that you were a tank and left in disgust.

There are several really strong mag blades out there that will surprise and kill 99% of cyro population.

Same goes with stamina blades, super STRONG burst combo and tanky.

If anything they need to fix servers and network performance before they even do any balancing or touch any skills.

Moose_Scout · May 16

Sneakers wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Maybe the problem is people play the wrong play-style, I assume most Mageblades you fight are Light Armor wearers? ever fought an Immovable using Heavy Armor wearing Mageblade? that is a different ballgame when the Nightblades defenses are actually high enough that they can out-heal your damage with Swallow Soul which at the same time will deal damage to you.

This is the setup that I use and I encountered a Sorcerer in Cyrodiil who panicked and retreated when they realized their "Streak + Haunting Curse + Mage's Wrath Combo" did nothing against me because I was unable to be stunned which means they could not knock me down and thus I was able to keep up my Health Siphoning with they could not withstand.

They didn't panic. They copped on that you were a tank and left in disgust.

There are several really strong mag blades out there that will surprise and kill 99% of cyro population.

Same goes with stamina blades, super STRONG burst combo and tanky.

If anything they need to fix servers and network performance before they even do any balancing or touch any skills.

Nice statistic! 99%! Wow...This whole thread is because nightblades lose 1 in 100 duels!?!
Get a job.

Any serious PVPer knows that nightblades are a joke right now. The only reason there is an uptick in gank attempts is that nightblades are in too bad of a spot to actually duel or fight.

fred4 · May 18

Draevik wrote: »

So all of you who play Nightblades die constantly to good players???

In open world? No. You recognise good players by name or because you just saw them fight someone else, before you even engage. You can recognise a fully levelled character by the speed of their horse. You can recognise a good player simply by how they move and whether they keep their buffs up. I will gank anyone, but if that doesn't make a dent, I don't even bother trying anymore. A "failed" gank tells me a lot. In CP I cannot outright kill any decent, fully levelled, alert and not otherwise pressured player (unlike possibly certain Snipe builds). That's fair, but I can brawl only a little after that. The typical squishy nightblade survives by damage avoidance. More than on any other class you choose what fights to participate in and you may choose to disengage before you die. In fact, you should. A nightblade's survival is in their own hands. When other classes draw a duel, it's because they can't kill each other. A typical nightblade can always be killed, except if they choose to withdraw in time.

The problem is that survival doesn't equal success in BGs. If you have to tuck your tail between your legs because you know from experience that a decent stamcro laughs at your damage, but will kill you if you let them, it's a problem. That, I suppose, is the premise of this thread. I don't really feel qualified to judge, since I don't participate in competitive duelling nor in BGs, but I suppose I agree with the gist of it.

Did all of you NB mains quit your NB, what are you playing now?

I play mostly IC. Cyro is usually too laggy or too zergy. This arguably hits squishy builds, such as mine, more than tankier ones. It also makes it more difficult for single target builds. Builds that include AOE have it easier. I hardly ever play BGs.

In open world there is usually a steady supply of inexperienced players you can kill. While I usually don't attack below vet or very low CP players in CP, nor players that are obviously questing or fishing, you still rack up a fair amount of AP. Having played in no CP recently (I normally don't) I also have to admit that my build, at least, is more effective there. Whether that's because it's a proc build and sustain build or because there are more inexperienced players there or because no CP makes kills easier for everyone or because it favors the initial aggressor (and hence NBs), I'm not sure. Probably a bit of everything. I do find time to kill quicker in no CP lately (I'm back on a full Caluurion + Zaan build

), but I also find that I can die extremely quickly to a counter-attack. Situational awareness is even more important than in CP.

That's open world, though. BGs reward kills and don't really punish death. A typical NB hangs back in cloak until it can surgically strike. At least that's my playstyle, but even though I've had good kill / death ratios, you don't rack up a good score that way. Also, something I haven't cracked is fighting tight ball groups. What NB is good at are disorganised fights with players in loose formation. When BGs allowed group queuing and I queued solo, I found little success. You referenced BGs in your initial post and a lot of people have strong feelings that NBs do not fit in with the BG meta and are underperforming there.

fred4 · May 18

Sneakers wrote: »

If anything they need to fix servers and network performance before they even do any balancing or touch any skills.

No argument here. For my part I'm not asking for buffs, although I can understand players who'd like cast times of ults and Merciless reverted.

fred4 · May 18

Draevik wrote: »

I would love to see all of you NB hunters post videos of you against good NBs in BGs demonstrating how to beat them. And no I don't want to see videos from other players. I want to see them from all of you awesome NB hunters.

Define good NB? I don't usually play BGs, thus I am low MMR. That makes it hard for me to produce the footage you seek, but is this the type of thing you're looking for?

OWLTHEMAD · May 18

cheemers wrote: »

Magblade is in a god-awful place right now in terms of PvP strength. Sure there are some skilled players who can do decent things with it, and out of stubbornness or loyalty try and stick with it, but I guarantee they could do so much more on a non- D tier class.

Stubborness or loyalty eh? Some combination of the two. I love the class and the pvp experience is something you cant quite get anywhere else. Weve fallen on quite hard times but i stick with it in hopes well at least reach parity again at some point. Also, when you know your on a gimped class and manage to take out multiple decent oponents in short order its just all the more satisfying.

OWLTHEMAD · May 18

I get why some people think they are op though, it plays so differently compared to the other classes. You really do need to adjust your strategy against a nightblade, and some struggle with that adjustment more than others. Its just that, once you figure it out, most nightblades are pretty easy to take out.

fred4 · May 19

Moose_Scout · May 19

Who would you rather fight? A rank 25 nightblade or a rank 25 necro. I bet you chose nightblade.

Sange13 · May 19

Draevik wrote: »

So all these magblades I see dominating BGs is just my imagination??? Weird I am not in the lowest of the low. You guys must not fight any good ones.

Magblades and Magsorcs are most usually tops on PS4 BGs. 2nd runner ups are DKs and Stamcros.

I've seen this a lot on PC/NA as well. The people crying that NBs aren't good are just not good NBs. The good ones are almost untouchable.

Langeston · May 19

Sange13 wrote: »

Draevik wrote: »

So all these magblades I see dominating BGs is just my imagination??? Weird I am not in the lowest of the low. You guys must not fight any good ones.

Magblades and Magsorcs are most usually tops on PS4 BGs. 2nd runner ups are DKs and Stamcros.

I've seen this a lot on PC/NA as well. The people crying that NBs aren't good are just not good NBs. The good ones are almost untouchable.

So you're saying that Magblades usually dominate PC NA BGs?

Why am I the only magblade in almost every high MMR BG I play in then? If the class was so strong you'd think more high level players would play it.

Moose_Scout · May 19

Sange13 wrote: »

Draevik wrote: »

So all these magblades I see dominating BGs is just my imagination??? Weird I am not in the lowest of the low. You guys must not fight any good ones.

Magblades and Magsorcs are most usually tops on PS4 BGs. 2nd runner ups are DKs and Stamcros.

I've seen this a lot on PC/NA as well. The people crying that NBs aren't good are just not good NBs. The good ones are almost untouchable.

But an average stamcro or stamden is almost impossible to kill as a nightblade... this is a real issue. I have played nightblade for 5 years and they are the worst they have ever been.
Get out of here with your "get good" responses.

I get way more BG kills on my average-effort stamcro than I do on my totally dialed-in stamblade and magblade.

Moose_Scout · May 19

Draevik wrote: »

So all of you who play Nightblades die constantly to good players??? Did all of you NB mains quit your NB, what are you playing now?

I would love to see all of you NB hunters post videos of you against good NBs in BGs demonstrating how to beat them. And no I don't want to see videos from other players. I want to see them from all of you awesome NB hunters.

I am playing Necro now. 5 years of nightblade before that.