Sthun's 6.0.2

Davadin

Sthun’s Favor: This set now grants 5312 Physical and Spell Penetration for 10 seconds when you damage an Off Balance enemy, rather than passively granting 11,130 of each versus Off Balance targets. This allows the set to be reined in much tighter in power by not being bound to the Off Balance cooldown since it can refresh at any time you meet the conditions, similarly to Armor of Truth.

Ok. Let's discuss.

I honestly thought the initial nerf in 6.0.1 is good. lets try it out and see.

now it's cut in half but triggers everytime you DAMAGE an OB enemy. so from ~7 sec (does stun remove OB status?) window to go absolutely nuts, you get 10 sec against anyone, but half the pen.

So in PvP, if I'm spamming Dizzying and suddenly my target went OB, I get a 10 sec buff against anyone. So, like, Dizzying, proc OB, DK Leap.

I don't know guys, I don't know..........

technohic

So running numbers on the UESP calculator I see it near 400 effective weapon damage below Spriggans when not proc. About 250 more with. That's not enough when talking a single target IMO as you will go 12 seconds without, and you would only be down 2 seconds against 2 targets but it hardly seems worth the effort. Especially when that's about where New moon is at albeit with the 5% cost increase

I'd also note that the UESP calculator has plenty of issues right now trying to run the PTS setting, but it seems about where it is.

Taleof2Cities

technohic wrote: »

I'd also note that the UESP calculator has plenty of issues right now trying to run the PTS setting, but it seems about where it is.

There's a big green banner on the UESP that says they're still working on the changes, @technohic ... so, yes, it's going to have issues if you check the box for "PTS 6.0.0".

Davadin

technohic wrote: »

So running numbers on the UESP calculator I see it near 400 effective weapon damage below Spriggans when not proc. About 250 more with. That's not enough when talking a single target IMO as you will go 12 seconds without, and you would only be down 2 seconds against 2 targets but it hardly seems worth the effort. Especially when that's about where New moon is at albeit with the 5% cost increase

I'd also note that the UESP calculator has plenty of issues right now trying to run the PTS setting, but it seems about where it is.

but I wanna wear it with New Moon, replacing Spriggan...

does stun remove off-balance status? anyone knows?

FirmamentOfStars

Offbalance doesnt get removed anymore by heavy attacks, stuns or other things. Its a set time you can exploit to restore more resources and deal more damage.

About stuhns: in a 1v1 situation the set can get a max uptime of like 17 seconds, since you get the penetration as soon as you set the enemy offbalance and do damage, but the uptime gets prolonged while damaging the enemy further during the offbalance effect. So in the last second of offbalance you still can refresh the penetration buff for 10 seconds. If you face several enemies you actually can get an 100% uptime on the increased penetration.

Therefore i think the 5th bonus now is a in a good spot conpared to spriggan with a higher effect, but not necessarely a 100% uptime (only if play it right against several enemies).

Still i think providing a percentage number of penetration similar to mauls and maces would make the set fulfill its role as an antitank set much better.

Giljabrar

I would also still like to see percent pen on the set, but in its current state it out performs Spriggan's.

It should have roughly 70% uptime in a 1v1, with potentially higher against multiple targets.

70% uptime is more than enough to work with. At minimum you're spending the other 30% healing/buffing.

Yes, the 6.0.2 version is weak compared to the 14k pen of the 6.0.0 - But 14k pen, was ludicrous.

technohic

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I'd also note that the UESP calculator has plenty of issues right now trying to run the PTS setting, but it seems about where it is.

There's a big green banner on the UESP that says they're still working on the changes, @technohic ... so, yes, it's going to have issues if you check the box for "PTS 6.0.0".

I'm aware. I just wanted to make it known that numbers were not perfect before even human error like the below

SavageChain wrote: »

Offbalance doesnt get removed anymore by heavy attacks, stuns or other things. Its a set time you can exploit to restore more resources and deal more damage.

About stuhns: in a 1v1 situation the set can get a max uptime of like 17 seconds, since you get the penetration as soon as you set the enemy offbalance and do damage, but the uptime gets prolonged while damaging the enemy further during the offbalance effect. So in the last second of offbalance you still can refresh the penetration buff for 10 seconds. If you face several enemies you actually can get an 100% uptime on the increased penetration.

Therefore i think the 5th bonus now is a in a good spot conpared to spriggan with a higher effect, but not necessarely a 100% uptime (only if play it right against several enemies).

Still i think providing a percentage number of penetration similar to mauls and maces would make the set fulfill its role as an antitank set much better.

I had no idea it refreshed. If that's the way it works, its definitely a viable spriggans replacement. I wont replace NM with it though

I haven't been on most update 25 because the performance. I assume off balance is being purged?

Mayrael

Yes, OB can be purged. Set is in a perfect spot right now, just one more thing, magicka classes need realizable source of OB. Remove the condition from crushing shock and we are good to go.

technohic

Mayrael wrote: »

Yes, OB can be purged. Set is in a perfect spot right now, just one more thing, magicka classes need realizable source of OB. Remove the condition from crushing shock and we are good to go.

NB, templar, DK all have a source. Not sure about the others but pretty sure they are ok for what they are except magcro.

MartiniDaniels

Seems fine right now. Probably you can now build more or less viable pure hybrid.
Something like:
- Stuhn's
- NMA 2H Greatsword
- dunmer or nord
- malacath
- 1 piece with double resources
- lover
- bewitched skulls
- jewelry triune with recovery enchants
- pierce armor for double penetration
- all attributes in stamina or magicka depending on build/class

Perfected VMA S&B backbar for sustain+armor pots+heavy armor to have some protection...

MartiniDaniels

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Seems fine right now. Probably you can now build more or less viable pure hybrid.
Something like:
- Stuhn's
- NMA 2H Greatsword
- dunmer or nord
- malacath
- 1 piece with double resources
- lover
- bewitched skulls
- jewelry triune with recovery enchants
- pierce armor for double penetration
- all attributes in stamina or magicka depending on build/class

Perfected VMA S&B backbar for sustain+armor pots+heavy armor to have some protection...

Just answering myself - this really may work
Because main hybrid problems were always lack of double crit and lack of double penetration. Now with malacath you can ignore crit and stuhn's+nma+lover+pierce armor will grant 5312+1487+1487+2752+5120=16k double pen in NO-CP. Not bad imo

MartiniDaniels

We may get our "stam" whip finally
To be honest, from the moment I started playing ESO, using flame whip&embers on stamina DK was always my dream and purpose...

technohic

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

We may get our "stam" whip finally
To be honest, from the moment I started playing ESO, using flame whip&embers on stamina DK was always my dream and purpose...

Gives a bit more meat in the bone for magicka to use melee weapons as well

MartiniDaniels

technohic wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

We may get our "stam" whip finally
To be honest, from the moment I started playing ESO, using flame whip&embers on stamina DK was always my dream and purpose...

Gives a bit more meat in the bone for magicka to use melee weapons as well

Yes, I never understood why ZOS decided to shelf one of the most amazing TES features - ability to combine magicka and melee with no restrictions. I guess it is too hard to balance for whole game, but with "crutches" like sthuns, NMA and malacath, pure hybrids may be back. Under "pure hybrid" I mean builds where both magicka and stamina are used for damage.

Davadin

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Seems fine right now. Probably you can now build more or less viable pure hybrid.
Something like:
- Stuhn's
- NMA 2H Greatsword
- dunmer or nord
- malacath
- 1 piece with double resources
- lover
- bewitched skulls
- jewelry triune with recovery enchants
- pierce armor for double penetration
- all attributes in stamina or magicka depending on build/class

Perfected VMA S&B backbar for sustain+armor pots+heavy armor to have some protection...

wait. pierce armor for double pen? what is this? trait?

technohic wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I'd also note that the UESP calculator has plenty of issues right now trying to run the PTS setting, but it seems about where it is.

There's a big green banner on the UESP that says they're still working on the changes, @technohic ... so, yes, it's going to have issues if you check the box for "PTS 6.0.0".

I'm aware. I just wanted to make it known that numbers were not perfect before even human error like the below

SavageChain wrote: »

Offbalance doesnt get removed anymore by heavy attacks, stuns or other things. Its a set time you can exploit to restore more resources and deal more damage.

About stuhns: in a 1v1 situation the set can get a max uptime of like 17 seconds, since you get the penetration as soon as you set the enemy offbalance and do damage, but the uptime gets prolonged while damaging the enemy further during the offbalance effect. So in the last second of offbalance you still can refresh the penetration buff for 10 seconds. If you face several enemies you actually can get an 100% uptime on the increased penetration.

Therefore i think the 5th bonus now is a in a good spot conpared to spriggan with a higher effect, but not necessarely a 100% uptime (only if play it right against several enemies).

Still i think providing a percentage number of penetration similar to mauls and maces would make the set fulfill its role as an antitank set much better.

I had no idea it refreshed. If that's the way it works, its definitely a viable spriggans replacement. I wont replace NM with it though

I'm using it WITH NM... but need more testing. Honestly I'm using NM + titanborn for the raw wep damage plus penetration now in CP Cyro.

MartiniDaniels

Davadin wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Seems fine right now. Probably you can now build more or less viable pure hybrid.
Something like:
- Stuhn's
- NMA 2H Greatsword
- dunmer or nord
- malacath
- 1 piece with double resources
- lover
- bewitched skulls
- jewelry triune with recovery enchants
- pierce armor for double penetration
- all attributes in stamina or magicka depending on build/class

Perfected VMA S&B backbar for sustain+armor pots+heavy armor to have some protection...

wait. pierce armor for double pen? what is this? trait?

technohic wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I'd also note that the UESP calculator has plenty of issues right now trying to run the PTS setting, but it seems about where it is.

There's a big green banner on the UESP that says they're still working on the changes, @technohic ... so, yes, it's going to have issues if you check the box for "PTS 6.0.0".

I'm aware. I just wanted to make it known that numbers were not perfect before even human error like the below

SavageChain wrote: »

Offbalance doesnt get removed anymore by heavy attacks, stuns or other things. Its a set time you can exploit to restore more resources and deal more damage.

About stuhns: in a 1v1 situation the set can get a max uptime of like 17 seconds, since you get the penetration as soon as you set the enemy offbalance and do damage, but the uptime gets prolonged while damaging the enemy further during the offbalance effect. So in the last second of offbalance you still can refresh the penetration buff for 10 seconds. If you face several enemies you actually can get an 100% uptime on the increased penetration.

Therefore i think the 5th bonus now is a in a good spot conpared to spriggan with a higher effect, but not necessarely a 100% uptime (only if play it right against several enemies).

Still i think providing a percentage number of penetration similar to mauls and maces would make the set fulfill its role as an antitank set much better.

I had no idea it refreshed. If that's the way it works, its definitely a viable spriggans replacement. I wont replace NM with it though

I'm using it WITH NM... but need more testing. Honestly I'm using NM + titanborn for the raw wep damage plus penetration now in CP Cyro.

Pierce Armor is morph of Ransack. That one which gives both major fracture+breach but doesn't provide minor protection.
So idea is like:
- dizzy main spammable
- deep slash - aoe spammable + maim + massive help in sustain from VMA set
- pierce armor - instead of noxious breath and ele drain, 2 in 1
- embers - dot + healing + burning
- molten whip as delayed burst+extra SD/WD (build up with foo-cauterize/embers)

So rotation will be like (foo/cauterize precast)-dizzy-embers-dizzy(stun)-leap-molten-executioner.
Of course all of it will require a lot of testing and tweaking. But coming from Pelinal+Shacklebreaker experience (which was somewhat ok in U23, but unplayable after U24 nerfs), NMA+Stuhn's+Malacath will be way more powerful.

Gilvoth

the set is now useless.
and ill even go as far as to say that it's possible that if people catch someone wearing this set and Golding it out they will probably be laughed at and booted from their group.

mav1234

Has some potential. It is very similar to Truth in set bonus equivalents now (both are ~3.5X of a normal set bonus), which is strong given how much damage penetration adds in PvP. Because the buff can be refreshed before OB falls, this could have a very high uptime on a class that is constantly refreshing OB. But, it doesn't contribute to healing and so I imagine it'll be less favored than Truth, which is already far behind NMA. So I don't know. We'll see, I guess.

Aedaryl

mav1234 wrote: »

Has some potential. It is very similar to Truth in set bonus equivalents now (both are ~3.5X of a normal set bonus), which is strong given how much damage penetration adds in PvP. Because the buff can be refreshed before OB falls, this could have a very high uptime on a class that is constantly refreshing OB. But, it doesn't contribute to healing and so I imagine it'll be less favored than Truth, which is already far behind NMA. So I don't know. We'll see, I guess.

Sthun's + new Moon + balrog = RIP

Use it on stamcro if you really want ez mode

Davadin

Gilvoth wrote: »

the set is now useless.
and ill even go as far as to say that it's possible that if people catch someone wearing this set and Golding it out they will probably be laughed at and booted from their group.

what group?

who in their right mind would use this for PvE?

Davadin

Aedaryl wrote: »

mav1234 wrote: »

Has some potential. It is very similar to Truth in set bonus equivalents now (both are ~3.5X of a normal set bonus), which is strong given how much damage penetration adds in PvP. Because the buff can be refreshed before OB falls, this could have a very high uptime on a class that is constantly refreshing OB. But, it doesn't contribute to healing and so I imagine it'll be less favored than Truth, which is already far behind NMA. So I don't know. We'll see, I guess.

Sthun's + new Moon + balrog = RIP

Use it on stamcro if you really want ez mode

I'm on Spriggan/NMA/Balrog now. But Balrog will be nerfed though...

Aedaryl

Davadin wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

mav1234 wrote: »

Has some potential. It is very similar to Truth in set bonus equivalents now (both are ~3.5X of a normal set bonus), which is strong given how much damage penetration adds in PvP. Because the buff can be refreshed before OB falls, this could have a very high uptime on a class that is constantly refreshing OB. But, it doesn't contribute to healing and so I imagine it'll be less favored than Truth, which is already far behind NMA. So I don't know. We'll see, I guess.

Sthun's + new Moon + balrog = RIP

Use it on stamcro if you really want ez mode

I'm on Spriggan/NMA/Balrog now. But Balrog will be nerfed though...

Balrog got buffed

The penetration + spell damage > 2x spell damage

HankTwo

Davadin wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

mav1234 wrote: »

Has some potential. It is very similar to Truth in set bonus equivalents now (both are ~3.5X of a normal set bonus), which is strong given how much damage penetration adds in PvP. Because the buff can be refreshed before OB falls, this could have a very high uptime on a class that is constantly refreshing OB. But, it doesn't contribute to healing and so I imagine it'll be less favored than Truth, which is already far behind NMA. So I don't know. We'll see, I guess.

Sthun's + new Moon + balrog = RIP

Use it on stamcro if you really want ez mode

I'm on Spriggan/NMA/Balrog now. But Balrog will be nerfed though...

Do you mean you think balorg will be nerfed on the last pts/live patch, or do you think it got nerfed with PTS patch 6.0.0? Because it got buffed by a lot...

And its pretty funny to see people on the forums thinking that a set with an easy to proc 5k+ penetration 5-piece as well as 2 weapon/spell damage + 1 penetration 2-4 piece boni is useless, just because they saw the ridiculous 13k pen on pts 6.0.0.

Gilvoth

Davadin wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

the set is now useless.
and ill even go as far as to say that it's possible that if people catch someone wearing this set and Golding it out they will probably be laughed at and booted from their group.

what group?

who in their right mind would use this for PvE?

pvp
not pve

Sluggy

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

We may get our "stam" whip finally
To be honest, from the moment I started playing ESO, using flame whip&embers on stamina DK was always my dream and purpose...

ZoS gave us our stam whip about this time last year then took it away the very next patch XD I've been playing a hybrid DK since Murkmire and this is probably the best patch for them since then. Still not sure it's going to be great but it will at least be back in the realm of mildly viable.

technohic

Davadin wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

mav1234 wrote: »

Has some potential. It is very similar to Truth in set bonus equivalents now (both are ~3.5X of a normal set bonus), which is strong given how much damage penetration adds in PvP. Because the buff can be refreshed before OB falls, this could have a very high uptime on a class that is constantly refreshing OB. But, it doesn't contribute to healing and so I imagine it'll be less favored than Truth, which is already far behind NMA. So I don't know. We'll see, I guess.

Sthun's + new Moon + balrog = RIP

Use it on stamcro if you really want ez mode

I'm on Spriggan/NMA/Balrog now. But Balrog will be nerfed though...

I've got sprig/NMA/Bloodspawn. Im not sure about running without a defensive set. I might switch to Bal if it goes as is, and then run bastion of the heartland. Can 4 piece it and run band of malacath or whatever your flavor 1 piece and still back bar potentates. If balorg gets nerfed, may try selenes.

Wuuffyy

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Seems fine right now. Probably you can now build more or less viable pure hybrid.
Something like:
- Stuhn's
- NMA 2H Greatsword
- dunmer or nord
- malacath
- 1 piece with double resources
- lover
- bewitched skulls
- jewelry triune with recovery enchants
- pierce armor for double penetration
- all attributes in stamina or magicka depending on build/class

Perfected VMA S&B backbar for sustain+armor pots+heavy armor to have some protection...

Just answering myself - this really may work
Because main hybrid problems were always lack of double crit and lack of double penetration. Now with malacath you can ignore crit and stuhn's+nma+lover+pierce armor will grant 5312+1487+1487+2752+5120=16k double pen in NO-CP. Not bad imo

That sounds lit. Ngl

Davadin

Aedaryl wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

mav1234 wrote: »

Has some potential. It is very similar to Truth in set bonus equivalents now (both are ~3.5X of a normal set bonus), which is strong given how much damage penetration adds in PvP. Because the buff can be refreshed before OB falls, this could have a very high uptime on a class that is constantly refreshing OB. But, it doesn't contribute to healing and so I imagine it'll be less favored than Truth, which is already far behind NMA. So I don't know. We'll see, I guess.

Sthun's + new Moon + balrog = RIP

Use it on stamcro if you really want ez mode

I'm on Spriggan/NMA/Balrog now. But Balrog will be nerfed though...

Balrog got buffed

The penetration + spell damage > 2x spell damage

is it really? i dont have the math, but if it is, yaaay!

Gilvoth wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

the set is now useless.
and ill even go as far as to say that it's possible that if people catch someone wearing this set and Golding it out they will probably be laughed at and booted from their group.

what group?

who in their right mind would use this for PvE?

pvp
not pve

exactly. who group in PvP and kick people with the wrong set?

HankTwo wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

mav1234 wrote: »

Has some potential. It is very similar to Truth in set bonus equivalents now (both are ~3.5X of a normal set bonus), which is strong given how much damage penetration adds in PvP. Because the buff can be refreshed before OB falls, this could have a very high uptime on a class that is constantly refreshing OB. But, it doesn't contribute to healing and so I imagine it'll be less favored than Truth, which is already far behind NMA. So I don't know. We'll see, I guess.

Sthun's + new Moon + balrog = RIP

Use it on stamcro if you really want ez mode

I'm on Spriggan/NMA/Balrog now. But Balrog will be nerfed though...

Do you mean you think balorg will be nerfed on the last pts/live patch, or do you think it got nerfed with PTS patch 6.0.0? Because it got buffed by a lot...

And its pretty funny to see people on the forums thinking that a set with an easy to proc 5k+ penetration 5-piece as well as 2 weapon/spell damage + 1 penetration 2-4 piece boni is useless, just because they saw the ridiculous 13k pen on pts 6.0.0.

agree lol

i mean, 11k would be interesting because just like everything, people will adapt. i dont think it's going to be too game-breaking like that Necro when first released, or Sload when Summerset was out. so yeah, 5k a bit disappointing from that point of view... but hey, i feel it'll still be stronger than Spriggan in PvP.

technohic wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

mav1234 wrote: »

Has some potential. It is very similar to Truth in set bonus equivalents now (both are ~3.5X of a normal set bonus), which is strong given how much damage penetration adds in PvP. Because the buff can be refreshed before OB falls, this could have a very high uptime on a class that is constantly refreshing OB. But, it doesn't contribute to healing and so I imagine it'll be less favored than Truth, which is already far behind NMA. So I don't know. We'll see, I guess.

Sthun's + new Moon + balrog = RIP

Use it on stamcro if you really want ez mode

I'm on Spriggan/NMA/Balrog now. But Balrog will be nerfed though...

I've got sprig/NMA/Bloodspawn. Im not sure about running without a defensive set. I might switch to Bal if it goes as is, and then run bastion of the heartland. Can 4 piece it and run band of malacath or whatever your flavor 1 piece and still back bar potentates. If balorg gets nerfed, may try selenes.

i was using Bloodspawn, and that monster set is the defensive set lol.... nah, I was on 2H/2H with my backbar is 4 skill + ulti is defensive, + Carve (because back was using Master Axe) and I was pretty tanky/dodgy/survivable.

so i picked up Bal when it came to golden vendor and never looked back with my 7k~8k WD after a Leap... BUT just couple days ago I got a Potentate SnB on backbar, it's pretty crazy. still have 26k Leap tooltip even on front bar, without Titanborn proccing under 50% health.

i think in June i'll go 5-NMA, 5-Stuhn, Bal, and Potentates SnB backbar. i dunno about Malacath. it's hard to sacrifice 5-th piece bonus on any of those set.