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Malacath's Band of Brutality, Crits, Proc Sets and p2w

  • MusCanus
    MusCanus
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    have the ring make the Crit Damage Modifier = 1, rather than Crit Chance = 0, so that Sorcs and NBs can use it effectively.

    While Sorcs will be able to use Surge in that case, for Nbs Crit Damage Modifier = 1 and Crit Chance = 0 for attacks mean almost the same. Next time make sure you have a clue what you're talking about before discussing classes, balance, diversity or anything else for that matter.
    keep proc sets which require a Crit to proc relevant, in the interest of Intra-Class Diversity.
    Let's play a game. Caluurion's Legacy. Now name the next good for pvp set tied to crits.
    Edited by MusCanus on May 4, 2020 7:17AM
  • Urzigurumash
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    What are you talking about, the Hemorrhage passive? Are you sure this wouldn't proc if the Crit Damage Modifier was 1? You may well still deal "Crit Damage", it would just have the same value as non-Crit Damage. How would anybody even know whether or not that's the case, since the Crit Damage Modifier has never been 1? Besides that, if everybody's in the Malacath ring, who cares about Hemorrhage, Stam Healers? Or is there some other thing about NBs and Crit Damage that upsets you? I'm not sure how you've confused "I'm not sure about how it might affect Inter-Class Balance" with "having a clue", but I understand your contempt may have overwhelmed you. You mention NB in your first post, by all means if there is some reason why NBs absolutely need a Crit Damage Modifier > 1 to function, enlighten me.

    As for Calurion's, sure that's the main one. I don't know whether anybody's in Vicecannon or Defiler or whatever or not, but this gets back to my point, what's the issue exactly? Why do you care whether Malacath buffs proc sets?

    You'll do better in communication if you dispense with the derision. It does you no favors. It always pays to be polite, especially to rude people.
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Urzigurumash
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    I agree, regardless of the Malacath ring, that proc sets should crit, as it is clearly inequitable for NBs that they do not, so much of their class budget being devoted to Crit. I suppose Caluurion's may solve this for MagNB, but Vicecannon, Defiler, etc., may not be strong enough to compensate for StamNB.

    Since we are headed into a high damage patch, I don't see what the downside is to increase damage even further by allowing procs to crit. It also isn't advertised anywhere that they do not, to my knowledge, so there may well be many newer players taking the Shadow or putting points into Precise Strikes thinking it will buff their proc sets. Unless you tested whether or not your procs can crit, you would probably assume they do. Likewise, I don't see the downside to allowing Malacath to buff procs, regardless of whether procs crit. It means you can't run certain builds or sets, so like I said, in my view it will engender intra-class build diversity. I anticipate, in other words, it would diminish the number of players running NMA frontbar and Potatoes / BRP DW backbar.

    In this regard I expect your issue is that the Malacath ring will expand the gap between NB and other classes, but I think you may perhaps be thinking too myopically. By your own admission you haven't really contemplated the impact of the other Mythic items. My impression is that NBs do in fact benefit the least from the array of Mythic items, but I'm a clueless fool.

    If your issue is strictly that it won't make sense to wear the Malacath ring and invest into Crit for the purposes of Crit Healing, ok, don't use it? Granted my bias as a StamDK means I don't care about Crit Healing whatsoever, since to my knowledge for years our class heal scaled off of Spell Crit, rather than Weapon Crit. I believe this has been changed now, but old habits die hard, and also I'm a poorly informed idiot scratching in the dirt.

    If your issue is simply that since proc sets cannot crit, there is no trade-off for proc builds to use the Malacath ring, that is quite logical, but countered by the fact that proc builds are outperformed by flat damage builds on live - to my benighted perception.
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • MusCanus
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    The ability to proc Minor Savagery from Hemorrhage is the sole reason I wrote "almost", otherwise it'll be exactly the same, were it Crit Damage Modifier = 1 or Crit Chance = 0.
    if there is some reason why NBs absolutely need a Crit Damage Modifier > 1 to function, enlighten me.
    NB has the most crit related kit out of all classes, it's:
    • +10% to Crit Damage Modifier from Hemorrhage passive
    • Guaranteed crit from cloak
    • More crit chance from Pressure Points passive
    All that becomes useless with either Crit Damage Modifier = 1 or Crit Chance = 0.
    Other classes have far less crit related passives/abilities, so NBs suffer the most.
    For sorcs Crit Damage Modifier = 1 would be preferable to Crit Chance = 0 because of Surge, but that's it.

    The thread is not about NBs or Sorcs though, it's just another point.
    Why do you care whether Malacath buffs proc sets?
    As an apology for being derisive or rude to you, I'll reiterate the point of my opening post.
    Malacath's allows you to do deal more damage on average (thus pressure) and comparable or higher burst even without proc sets. If you add proc sets to that, it just becomes absurd.
    Edited by MusCanus on May 4, 2020 10:15AM
  • Urzigurumash
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    MusCanus wrote: »
    Other classes have far less crit related passives/abilities, so NBs suffer the most.

    There's no doubt about that, see my above post which I probably made at the same time you made this post. What do you think would better resolve this issue, allowing all procs to crit, disallowing Malacath from buffing procs, or doing as I said, making Malacath so it just means there is no actual added damage from crits, but they still "crit" and "do crit damage" for the purposes of activating passives, etc.
    MusCanus wrote: »
    Malacath's allows you to do deal more damage on average (thus pressure) and comparable or higher burst even without proc sets. If you add proc sets to that, it just becomes absurd.

    Sure, but why not? It sounds fun to me, maybe we will come to see more procs in our recaps than Caluurion's and Grothdarr. Granted, I think proc sets are amusing to use, I enjoy their pleasing visuals and sound effects, and I tend to build for aesthetics as much as performance.
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • MusCanus
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    I agree, regardless of the Malacath ring, that proc sets should crit, as it is clearly inequitable for NBs that they do not, so much of their class budget being devoted to Crit. I suppose Caluurion's may solve this for MagNB, but Vicecannon, Defiler, etc., may not be strong enough to compensate for StamNB.

    Since we are headed into a high damage patch, I don't see what the downside is to increase damage even further by allowing procs to crit. It also isn't advertised anywhere that they do not, to my knowledge, so there may well be many newer players taking the Shadow or putting points into Precise Strikes thinking it will buff their proc sets. Unless you tested whether or not your procs can crit, you would probably assume they do. Likewise, I don't see the downside to allowing Malacath to buff procs, regardless of whether procs crit. It means you can't run certain builds or sets, so like I said, in my view it will engender intra-class build diversity. I anticipate, in other words, it would diminish the number of players running NMA frontbar and Potatoes / BRP DW backbar.

    In this regard I expect your issue is that the Malacath ring will expand the gap between NB and other classes, but I think you may perhaps be thinking too myopically. By your own admission you haven't really contemplated the impact of the other Mythic items. My impression is that NBs do in fact benefit the least from the array of Mythic items, but I'm a clueless fool.

    If your issue is strictly that it won't make sense to wear the Malacath ring and invest into Crit for the purposes of Crit Healing, ok, don't use it? Granted my bias as a StamDK means I don't care about Crit Healing whatsoever, since to my knowledge for years our class heal scaled off of Spell Crit, rather than Weapon Crit. I believe this has been changed now, but old habits die hard, and also I'm a poorly informed idiot scratching in the dirt.

    If your issue is simply that since proc sets cannot crit, there is no trade-off for proc builds to use the Malacath ring, that is quite logical, but countered by the fact that proc builds are outperformed by flat damage builds on live - to my benighted perception.

    As a rude and horrible person, I'm glad there is finally a comment I can mostly agree with.
    That was my point from the start: either make proc sets crit or make Malacath's not work on them. I still think it'll be kinda OP noCP, but at least bearable.
  • Urzigurumash
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    I masochistically enjoy trying to compete in trash meme builds, as my thousands of lost Battlegrounds attest, so I am unquestionably biased towards favoring more proc damage from any source. I may have disagreed before adapting to the Sload's meta, or resigning myself to insurmountable inferiority during the Bugged Pet Sorc meta.
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
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    MusCanus wrote: »
    That was my point from the start: either make proc sets crit or make Malacath's not work on them. I still think it'll be kinda OP noCP, but at least bearable.

    In light of my bias towards proc sets, I'm all for letting it play out on live. The patch notes don't always convey how things will manifest on live. However, I have no idea how, say 4 piece NMA + Malacath compares to 5 piece NMA on most builds. I don't think Heem-Ja's is an abundantly popular set in Cyro, certainly not as popular as NMA, so maybe this 25% buff isn't as vicious as it sounds in the end?
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • MusCanus
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    I don't think Heem-Ja's is an abundantly popular set in Cyro, certainly not as popular as NMA, so maybe this 25% buff isn't as vicious as it sounds in the end?

    +25% for 5 secs when somebody in the vicinity dies is a little bit less uptime and damage than +25% all the time. Even if your crits aren't completely mitigated by someones crit resist.
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
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    MusCanus wrote: »
    I don't think Heem-Ja's is an abundantly popular set in Cyro, certainly not as popular as NMA, so maybe this 25% buff isn't as vicious as it sounds in the end?

    +25% for 5 secs when somebody in the vicinity dies is a little bit less uptime and damage than +25% all the time. Even if your crits aren't completely mitigated by someones crit resist.

    True. I'm definitely ignorant as to how some of these percentile buffs work. People always ragged on the old Nord passive, but now say Minor Protection is OP, I'm skeptical that the 2% difference is the reason why.

    Edited by Urzigurumash on May 4, 2020 11:14AM
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    MusCanus wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    MusCanus wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    OP? Yes. Gives to proc set +/- same damage they would deal in PVP right now if they could crit, except with 100% chance.
    P2W? No. Nearly everything in the game is behind some paywall, thats how games works. If we call this p2w then that 'term' lost any meaning anymore as it would apply to almost every online game.

    It is OP and it is behind a paywall contradicts it is not p2w. For it not to be p2w at least one the first two statements has to be false.
    That's called logic and claiming the opposite is called denial.

    It only contradicts it if you consider any form of paywall between yourself and item of stronger nature pay2win. That would be incorrect and very washed out meaning of pay2win. In this definition of pay to win the game has been pay to win since start and therefore adding one more item does not change nature of this game in any way and you are playing wrong game.
    You agreed that the Ring is OP. "Item of stronger nature" doesn't equal "overpowered". Can you name another item that is both OP and behind a paywall?
    I don't think it really has to be spoon-fed like that further, but imagine there are two items behind a paywall, one gives you 1% more damage, another one gives 100% more. The first one isn't p2w cause the advantage is hardly noticeable, the second one surely is (or are you gonna argue that as well?). Now, where are you ready to draw the line between them?

    Neither is p2w if both come from DLC to the game. Both would be p2w if they appeared on crown store. Simple enough for ya or still struggling to grasp the concept here?
  • MusCanus
    MusCanus
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    MusCanus wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    MusCanus wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    OP? Yes. Gives to proc set +/- same damage they would deal in PVP right now if they could crit, except with 100% chance.
    P2W? No. Nearly everything in the game is behind some paywall, thats how games works. If we call this p2w then that 'term' lost any meaning anymore as it would apply to almost every online game.

    It is OP and it is behind a paywall contradicts it is not p2w. For it not to be p2w at least one the first two statements has to be false.
    That's called logic and claiming the opposite is called denial.

    It only contradicts it if you consider any form of paywall between yourself and item of stronger nature pay2win. That would be incorrect and very washed out meaning of pay2win. In this definition of pay to win the game has been pay to win since start and therefore adding one more item does not change nature of this game in any way and you are playing wrong game.
    You agreed that the Ring is OP. "Item of stronger nature" doesn't equal "overpowered". Can you name another item that is both OP and behind a paywall?
    I don't think it really has to be spoon-fed like that further, but imagine there are two items behind a paywall, one gives you 1% more damage, another one gives 100% more. The first one isn't p2w cause the advantage is hardly noticeable, the second one surely is (or are you gonna argue that as well?). Now, where are you ready to draw the line between them?

    Neither is p2w if both come from DLC to the game. Both would be p2w if they appeared on crown store. Simple enough for ya or still struggling to grasp the concept here?
    So, whatever it is, if it has to be unboxed first, then it's ok, if it comes without package, then it's not. Lol, ok, I got it, thanks. No more questions for ya. I wonder why did I even bother.
  • Joinovikova
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    MusCanus wrote: »
    In noCP PvP basic crit damage modifier is 50-60% depending on class.
    You can increase said modifier by Shadow mundus, certain sets, Minor force and Khajiit passives, but all of them are rightfully considered far from optimal and only work on certain niche builds.
    The majority of players run 7 impen which gives 1806 (27%) crit resist, in the new patch you can push it even higher.
    That leaves 23-33% crit damage modifier or lower.
    Crit chance for most builds is around 40% at best or lower, if you're not willing to sacrifice most of other stats.
    So on average you can get around 9-13% additional damage through crits, or lower.

    Malacath's Band of Brutality increases all damage done by 25% all the time.
    On average it's 12-16% more damage than through crits.
    Theoretically you can still deal around 8% more burst damage with crits, but if your combo consists of at least 3 damage instances, the chance of that happening is around 6% or less. So in most cases you burst will be comparable or higher with Band of Brutality than with crits.

    But that is without proc sets. Proc sets damage can't crit but can be increased by Band of Brutality. Thus you can not only deal 12-16% more damage on average with you abilities but also deal 25% more damage with any proc set cheese you prefer. That allows an absurd amount of burst and pressure in comparison to builds without the Band.
    And all that is in expense of 1 equip slot. Given that most popular monster sets got nerfed in the new patch, it won't be much of a sacrifice in a lot of cases. Very convenient, huh?

    Said all that, I think it is only fair and logical to make proc sets crit again OR make Band of Brutality not work on them. It would still outperform most builds without it, and by far, but at least not by such absurd amounts. Otherwise it can be rightfully considered pure p2w since it requires both the Greymoor expansion and Orsinium DLC to acquire.

    P.S.: Certain classes (NB and Sorc) are in even worse situation. Even if they opt to use Band of Brutality, they'll be at disadvantage still, cause parts of their kits dedicated to crits will become useless.

    P.P.S.: Before people start arguing that proc sets are bad for the game and shouldn't be even a thing. Well, those sets are already here and won't go anywhere, so the issue should be addressed one way or another.

    #MakeProcSetsCritAgain
    The main problem which I see all mythic items are locked not only P2W wall but mainly stupid boring farming for no lifers like metin 2 or line age 2 or other games where skill has zero influcnce on your performance but no life farm to win...but this is even worst. strongest items in game
    PVE challenge .. no...
    PVP
    challenge no...

    cheap mobile farming game yes..
  • olsborg
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    Malacath brought back proccmeta 2.0 and I dont rly like it.

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • Lughlongarm
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    If we have a "Malacath " meta, we also will have no impen meta, and crit builds value increases.
  • preevious
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    This again?

    Is malacath's band powerfull in no-cp PvP? Yeah, sure, very.

    Is it pay to win? No.

    In EVERY MMO EVER, you get the extention stuff ONLY IF you get the extention. I repeat : it's like this in EVERY-EVERLOVING-FRIGGING MMO EVER MADE.

    That's not pay to win.

    Pay to win is more like
    "hey, you play our game? How about you buy this armor? Only $99 ! Unobtainable in game ! Be stronger, buy"

    [snip]

    [edited for bait]
    Edited by ZOS_FalcoYamaoka on June 11, 2020 12:37PM
  • butterrum222
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    Make malacaths band instead of increasing damage done by 25%, it enables proc set crits
  • Rianai
    Rianai
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    Make malacaths band instead of increasing damage done by 25%, it enables proc set crits

    No. Proc sets do not need any buffs whatsoever.
  • Zabagad
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    preevious wrote: »

    I brought it?

    It's in the OP.
    It's in the thread's title, for god's sake -_-'
    OFc - I can read - but the thread was sleeping for a long while and brought back to the top NOT because of P2W. (Maybe I missunderstand your "This again"?)

    But anyway - you have nothing to say to my real argument? You just react on the little introduction?

    Edit: To answer your edit:
    So basically you say: If a P2W item comes behind a small grind part - its no longer P2W?
    I bought that mystic which I had to grind a bit for - I didnt do anything else with that chapter.
    For me even inconvenienced P2W is P2W - but I'm out here - makes anyway no sence....


    Edited by Zabagad on June 11, 2020 12:06PM
    PC EU (noCP AD) Grey/Grau AD
  • Rianai
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    preevious wrote: »
    You buy a DLC. The DLC comes with stuff in it, because if not .. why bother having a DLC in the first place?

    Maybe ... for the quests, story, exploration, cosmetics, ...an overall new experience? There are plenty of ways to implement new and worthwhile content without making it P2W. Even new items aren't P2W if they don't offer an upgrade for builds or are also accessible to players who haven't spend money (via trading for example) or only useful within the new content itself.

    The decision to lock powerful items behind payed content does not improve the content itself. It does not make players pay for the content itself. It makes players pay for the items. And that's the intention behind this deliberate decision.
    Edited by Rianai on June 11, 2020 12:29PM
  • preevious
    preevious
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    Zabagad wrote: »
    preevious wrote: »

    I brought it?

    It's in the OP.
    It's in the thread's title, for god's sake -_-'
    OFc - I can read - but the thread was sleeping for a long while and brought back to the top NOT because of P2W. (Maybe I missunderstand your "This again"?)

    But anyway - you have nothing to say to my real argument? You just react on the little introduction?

    Edit: To answer your edit:
    So basically you say: If a P2W item comes behind a small grind part - its no longer P2W?
    I bought that mystic which I had to grind a bit for - I didnt do anything else with that chapter.
    For me even inconvenienced P2W is P2W - but I'm out here - makes anyway no sence....


    First, please, stop calling it mystic, it's .. oddly unnerving :D (ok, ok, that's a joke to lighten the atmosphere ;) )

    But seriously ..
    You didn't do anything else in that chapter? Your choice, and yours only.
    You bought the extention for what you wanted to buy it.
    I did, too ! It just turns out I had a little more reason that you to do so.

    No matter.

    The grind part is not relevant, again.
    The game is not P2W because you think that a dlc is only good for an item. That's, like .. an opinion.
    A game is not P2W because a full dlc brings, among other things, something that might be a bit stronger.
    I mean, DLC are meant to bring progression.

    Now, if you want, I'll admit that the 5-inv items pet are walking on the thin line between P2W and not P2W.
    I hope it won't go further than a few inventory spaces here and there.
    Edited by preevious on June 11, 2020 12:30PM
  • Dracane
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    No, proc sets should not be allowed to crit again. This was toxic and removed for good reasons.
    Prevent Malacath's from affecting proc sets and it will be fine again.
    Auri-El is my lord,
    Trinimac is my shield,
    Magnus is my mind.
  • Zabagad
    Zabagad
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    preevious wrote: »

    First, please, stop calling it mystic, it's .. oddly unnerving :D (ok, ok, that's a joke to lighten the atmosphere ;) )

    But seriously ..
    You didn't do anything else in that chapter? Your choice, and yours only.
    You bought the extention for what you wanted to buy it.
    I did, too ! It just turns out I had a little more reason that you to do so.

    No matter.

    The grind part is not relevant, again.
    The game is not P2W because you think that a dlc is only good for an item. That's, like .. an opinion.
    A game is not P2W because a full dlc brings, among other things, something that might be a bit stronger.
    I mean, DLC are meant to bring progression.

    Now, if you want, I'll admit that the 5-inv items pet are walking on the thin line between P2W and not P2W.
    I hope it won't go further than a few inventory spaces here and there.

    First, please, stop calling it DLC, it's .. oddly unnerving :D (ok, ok, that's a joke to lighten the atmosphere ;) )
    Second - it's not my first language and in my language all sets/items etc. called different.

    Third - I payed to win - How much proof can you need to accept that this is a fact.
    Ofc it,s my choise and ofc I could do a lot in Skyrim-Area (maybe I will do that sometime)
    And last time - I accept "a bit stronger" like I accepted it and didn't buy Morrowind and Elsweyr, because there was nothing inside I needed to win.

    But est. 8% is not a bit.

    BTW: For me the 5pc pets are not P2W - that just convinence like bigger bank space and so on.
    But nobody will kill me, or get not killed by me, because of that 5pc more space.
    The arguments u can carry one more set are .... - trully I never said eso is P2W before.
    And again - I really don't care much - just if they add now in every DLC(! yes I mean DLC - not chapter) a new P2W-item.

    And now back to the (actual) topic pls - stop procsets be 25% stronger now :) (and ofc let them not crit too)
    Edited by Zabagad on June 11, 2020 1:10PM
    PC EU (noCP AD) Grey/Grau AD
  • Kadoin
    Kadoin
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    Sharrum wrote: »
    So are WoW expansions p2w? It locks new zone/raids gear out of players who dont buy the newest exp after all :shrug

    You know, every time someone throws the argument "but WoW..."

    I just think this: if you want to make that argument, then why ESO?

    Something for you and the management of the game that wants to follow WoW into oblivion to ponder.
  • ZOS_Volpe
    ZOS_Volpe
    admin
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  • katorga
    katorga
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    olsborg wrote: »
    Malacath brought back proccmeta 2.0 and I dont rly like it.

    The healing nerf, defensive monster set nerf, and increase in base crit resistance is what brought back the proc meta.

    It is also bringing back health regen as a defense.
  • Kadoin
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    katorga wrote: »
    olsborg wrote: »
    Malacath brought back proccmeta 2.0 and I dont rly like it.

    The healing nerf, defensive monster set nerf, and increase in base crit resistance is what brought back the proc meta.

    It is also bringing back health regen as a defense.

    Don't forget since damage reduction was untouched, as expected the tank meta is stronger than ever.
  • YandereGirlfriend
    YandereGirlfriend
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    katorga wrote: »
    olsborg wrote: »
    Malacath brought back proccmeta 2.0 and I dont rly like it.

    The healing nerf, defensive monster set nerf, and increase in base crit resistance is what brought back the proc meta.

    It is also bringing back health regen as a defense.

    Wait, isn't health regeneration also impacted by Battle Spirit? I thought that it was only long ago when it escaped it.
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
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    Wait, isn't health regeneration also impacted by Battle Spirit? I thought that it was only long ago when it escaped it.

    Nope, you're thinking of Defile.

    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    Rianai wrote: »
    preevious wrote: »
    You buy a DLC. The DLC comes with stuff in it, because if not .. why bother having a DLC in the first place?

    Maybe ... for the quests, story, exploration, cosmetics, ...an overall new experience? There are plenty of ways to implement new and worthwhile content without making it P2W. Even new items aren't P2W if they don't offer an upgrade for builds or are also accessible to players who haven't spend money (via trading for example) or only useful within the new content itself.

    The decision to lock powerful items behind payed content does not improve the content itself. It does not make players pay for the content itself. It makes players pay for the items. And that's the intention behind this deliberate decision.

    No it does not improve it. It promotes it and that is the whole point in the first place. They are not going to put garbage items in their new content as that would disincentivize people from buying it. That doesn't make the items p2w. They are still part of the game.
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