Sould a build be 10% offense, 90% DEFENSIVE. Be rewarded with 100%burst combo kills?

phoenixkungfu

Let's be honest. The average build is tanking massive damage especially depending on the classes or weapon being used.
The very definition of tank is the amount of damage absorbed.

The definition of dps it the amount of damage done per second.

The definition of healer is the amount of damage heal per second.

This past patch builds that can tank massive damage and burst 100% of your hp. IS AT A ALL TIME HIGH. in 5 years of playing I have never seen it this bad.

If you honestly look at the damage done in advantage pvp gameplay. Being aggressive, offense will still get you killed. My advantage ratio is honestly 90%aggressive damage done to 10% damage done to the new meta builds of tanking.
Not only on advantage is these set ups out tanking executes but they are also bursting for 100%of hp(unreachable DAMAGE).

Making the same build that is a better tank by definition a better DPS.

So the question is is not honestly about dps, tanking or healing. It's about gameplay. And rewarding experience.

Should aggression be rewarded over defense?

As of gameplay right now the answer is no.

If being aggressive is to be rewarded I'm going to be honest the number value are completely off. That value of being a max damage build vs a combination of all three role is not balance. IS OFF THE CHARTS MORE effective past player choice to be a combination of all three roles in pvp...

These gameplay is creating a experience that simply but is bad for gameplay. Bad for pvp..
I main a pet sorcerer for 5 plus years. And I'm the biggest example as who the gameplay effects. I'm almost always aggressive doing damage. And the damage total against my opponents are high. It a 90% damage done to and 10% damage received ratio. However on average the 10% damage ratio equal 100% hp loss even with defense up.

I ask who should be rewarded in pvp the aggressive or defensive....With killing other as a damage dealer?

kargen27

It has often been said a good defense is the best offense.

Surviving a burst of damage then timing a retaliation should be a viable strategy. If you put everything into the initial attack and fail to get the kill there should be consequences. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to overwhelm someone quickly if you catch them without full defenses and you hit them hard. Just saying defense has its place.

ssewallb14_ESO

It's the other way around. The meta builds you think are tank focused are running medium armor, bloodspawn, and 2 damage sets with infused damage glyphs. They seem tanky because damage is so low at this point that everyone is tanky by default. You feel squishy because they're stacking so much damage.

phoenixkungfu

kargen27 wrote: »

It has often been said a good defense is the best offense.

Surviving a burst of damage then timing a retaliation should be a viable strategy. If you put everything into the initial attack and fail to get the kill there should be consequences. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to overwhelm someone quickly if you catch them without full defenses and you hit them hard. Just saying defense has its place.

I can agree with a playstyle of all 3 role of tank,healing and dps. Which is ultimately what you said BUT at what ratio is it EXTREME. Right now it's at a tanking and healing ratio of 90%. With 100% hp burst

The all three role set up can be almost never be aggressive or offensive. It's like 10% offense to 90%defense.

jaws343

DPS isn't really a thing in PVP. You can't define the pvp side of things with the definition from PVE. In PVP, you aren't trying to do DPS, or sustained damage over time. You are trying to line up burst combos to take down opponents. Burst combos have nothing to do with DPS and can be performed by healers or even tanky characters given the right circumstances.

ArchMikem

It's the 1H&S backbar that is the culprit. If the burst fails they just swap bars, kite away while spamming their heals and buffs again while using the extra block mitigation. It's so annoying how 1H&S is on the majority of PvP builds.

phoenixkungfu

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

It's the other way around. The meta builds you think are tank focused are running medium armor, bloodspawn, and 2 damage sets with infused damage glyphs. They seem tanky because damage is so low at this point that everyone is tanky by default. You feel squishy because they're stacking so much damage.

If what you say is true then you are looking at it WRONG.... take damage, sets gear off. And now let's look at moves being done to create damage done by the play.....this concept is BE AGGRESSIVE. It you look at that it 90%being aggressive to 10% being defensive ratio. Against builds design to maximize at all three roles.
THIS IS PROOF the gameplay takes the choice of being effective at a role out of the players hands and makes being all three Roles OFF THE CHARTS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN being aggressive.

ssewallb14_ESO

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

It's the other way around. The meta builds you think are tank focused are running medium armor, bloodspawn, and 2 damage sets with infused damage glyphs. They seem tanky because damage is so low at this point that everyone is tanky by default. You feel squishy because they're stacking so much damage.

If what you say is true then you are looking at it WRONG.... take damage, sets gear off. And now let's look at moves being done to create damage done by the play.....this concept is BE AGGRESSIVE. It you look at that it 90%being aggressive to 10% being defensive ratio. Against builds design to maximize at all three roles.
THIS IS PROOF the gameplay takes the choice of being effective at a role out of the players hands and makes being all three Roles OFF THE CHARTS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN being aggressive.

If you take sets off everyone is a tank and nothing dies. The problem is/was the never ending nerfs to kill mechanics, as well as CP favoring healing. The only option is to stack as much damage as possible so underwhelming damage mechanics have better kill potential, simply by virtue of being so damage stacked.

xXMeowMeowXx

ArchMikem wrote: »

It's the 1H&S backbar that is the culprit. If the burst fails they just swap bars, kite away while spamming their heals and buffs again while using the extra block mitigation. It's so annoying how 1H&S is on the majority of PvP builds.

Honestly 2h is in the majority. I have no problem melting peeps with dizzy at all.

@phoenixkungfu There are too many factors that go into playing PvP.

If you’re having trouble you should look at your build and what you can change to deal with the problems.

Since you play a sorc main I believe. You do have the best mobility offered in the game, not to mention some juicy damage. Sorcs have a wonderful kit to outplay other players.

When played right, you can frustrate multiple opponents into making a mistakes, so you can burst them down.

How are you running your sorc if I may ask?

phoenixkungfu

jaws343 wrote: »

DPS isn't really a thing in PVP. You can't define the pvp side of things with the definition from PVE. In PVP, you aren't trying to do DPS, or sustained damage over time. You are trying to line up burst combos to take down opponents. Burst combos have nothing to do with DPS and can be performed by healers or even tanky characters given the right circumstances.

You basically CONFIRM what I said...you just said it differently. If a build can create effectiveness at all three roles. No matter how AGGRESSIVE YOU ARE DOESN'T MATTER. Taken the CHOICE out the player hand to be effective at any ONE ROLE.

My example is the DESIGN OF PET SORC. No matter how hard I try to be effective as a pet sorcerer, maximize dps and and effectively specialize at being a dps. IM OUT CLASS BY THE DESIGN of the OFF THE CHART EFFECTIVENESS of build maximize at all 3 roles. No matter HOW AGGRESSIVE I AM. It's the very definition of having no chance. Wait I have about a 10% CHANCE TO WIN

Jakx

Why do you play CP? Real pvpers are in No-CP.

and on the Convenant.

Thogard

This is a dynamic game. Thinking you can only be one or the other is a learn to play issue. Improve more and focus on learning WHEN to use tanky skills and WHEN to use burst damage skills.

xXMeowMeowXx

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

DPS isn't really a thing in PVP. You can't define the pvp side of things with the definition from PVE. In PVP, you aren't trying to do DPS, or sustained damage over time. You are trying to line up burst combos to take down opponents. Burst combos have nothing to do with DPS and can be performed by healers or even tanky characters given the right circumstances.

You basically CONFIRM what I said...you just said it differently. If a build can create effectiveness at all three roles. No matter how AGGRESSIVE YOU ARE DOING MATTER. Taken the CHOICE out the player hand to be effective at any ONE ROLE.

My example is the DESIGN OF PET SORC. No matter how hard I try to be effective as a pet sorcerer, maximize dps and and effectively specialize at being a dps. IM OUT CLASS BY THE DESIGN of the OFF THE CHART EFFECTIVENESS of build maximize at all 3 roles. No matter HOW AGGRESSIVE I AM. It's the very definition of having no chance. Wait I have about a 10% CHANCE TO WIN

That is not true at all @phoenixkungfu well maybe for you. I mean that in the way that don’t know your play style or build.

Though as a counter there are many 1 v Xer sorcs destroying people. I myself have done this to empress without pets and with one pet.

Are you by chance running two pets? If you want to be more competitive drop one Cx.

Also, check around because the sorc burst combo is still pretty much the same. Except with ya flex spots.

Make sure to stay out of melee range. Soon as your ground is lost re-adjust and start your focusing on the weaker targets till gone. If you’re lucky someone will try to rez which is free ap. The sorcs kit has everything you need.

Cx, check around @phoenixkungfu it is probably your build and playstyle. With a few adjustments you will see some nice progress eventually. Keep at it.

I like to mutliclass it and currently I am playing magblade again for the challenge.

phoenixkungfu

Thogard wrote: »

This is a dynamic game. Thinking you can only be one or the other is a learn to play issue. Improve more and focus on learning WHEN to use tanky skills and WHEN to use burst damage skills.

Thogard wrote: »

This is a dynamic game. Thinking you can only be one or the other is a learn to play issue. Improve more and focus on learning WHEN to use tanky skills and WHEN to use burst damage skills.

K but at what % is preforming any 1 role extreme at what effective efficiency is doing aggressive damage and keeping a opponent on the defensive on a build design for maximizing being effective at 3 roles extreme. Is it realistic balance to say. That number of balance is at 90% of your damage done to there 10%damage done...or 10% of their damage done should equal 100%of your hp. IS THIS REAL GAMEPLAY BALANCE. This is honestly the everyday numbers of it.

Thogard

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

This is a dynamic game. Thinking you can only be one or the other is a learn to play issue. Improve more and focus on learning WHEN to use tanky skills and WHEN to use burst damage skills.

Thogard wrote: »

This is a dynamic game. Thinking you can only be one or the other is a learn to play issue. Improve more and focus on learning WHEN to use tanky skills and WHEN to use burst damage skills.

K but at what % is preforming any 1 role extreme at what effective efficiency is doing aggressive damage and keeping a opponent on the defensive on a build design for maximizing being effective at 3 roles extreme. Is it realistic balance to say. That number of balance is at 90% of your damage done to there 10%damage done...or 10% of their damage done should equal 100%of your hp. IS THIS REAL GAMEPLAY BALANCE. This is honestly the everyday numbers of it.

Whatever % it needs to be in order to win. Being able to change that based on who you’re fighting is what makes this combat dynamic.

xXMeowMeowXx

Thogard wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

This is a dynamic game. Thinking you can only be one or the other is a learn to play issue. Improve more and focus on learning WHEN to use tanky skills and WHEN to use burst damage skills.

Thogard wrote: »

This is a dynamic game. Thinking you can only be one or the other is a learn to play issue. Improve more and focus on learning WHEN to use tanky skills and WHEN to use burst damage skills.

K but at what % is preforming any 1 role extreme at what effective efficiency is doing aggressive damage and keeping a opponent on the defensive on a build design for maximizing being effective at 3 roles extreme. Is it realistic balance to say. That number of balance is at 90% of your damage done to there 10%damage done...or 10% of their damage done should equal 100%of your hp. IS THIS REAL GAMEPLAY BALANCE. This is honestly the everyday numbers of it.

Whatever % it needs to be in order to win. Being able to change that based on who you’re fighting is what makes this combat dynamic.

This is true. It is not one thing but also having a well rounded build and being experienced in PvP is important.

I am still not seeing your issues though with playing a sorc....You’re sort of all over the place to me.

If you want a constructive feedback or advise to help you. Perhaps you should ask for help on your build, rather than how you have put things in the OP.

I think then you will get the better results you are looking for.

idk

kargen27 wrote: »

It has often been said a good defense is the best offense.

Surviving a burst of damage then timing a retaliation should be a viable strategy. If you put everything into the initial attack and fail to get the kill there should be consequences. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to overwhelm someone quickly if you catch them without full defenses and you hit them hard. Just saying defense has its place.

Yea, but also OP is speaking in very generalized terms.

phoenixkungfu

I DIED TO A BUILD AFTER DOING A MILLION DAMAGE. The dk did 80k total damage.

THE GAME IS NOT ENJOYABLE. LIKE THIS, ITS BAD GAMEPLAY. TERRIBLE DESIGN

This is what all of the changes lead too.

Sneaky-Snurr

OP, what class and specs do you play? Are you a magicka DK?

phoenixkungfu

I'm play max damage in every way pet sorcerer. My pet is summon twilight. So I have only dark conversion as a heal. After nerfs i couldn't kill anybody. So I try more damage option.


My total burst
daedric prey 13k
Summoning twilight 6tick(4k) total 24k
Summoning volatile 6tick (2k) total 12k volatile abilitie 3 tick (3k)total 9k

Burst option ultimate
Soul assault 6 tick (17k) total 102,456

Shooting star 20k
Endless fury 16k 20% 4Ik on hit
Streak 7k

160,514 over 6 sec for soul assault
47k burst shooting star combo

The sets I'm wearing is necromancer and crafty kjalnar( I honestly try to time this set but it lags out.) So I'm alway light attacking.
I have all damage glyph.

I'm open to any suggestions.
Any builds. Anything competitive to a build that can tank 7 soul assault plus light attack damage plus random monster sets
And do two dk leap and win for about 80kish total damage.

Cathexis

If you honestly look at the damage done in advantage pvp gameplay. Being aggressive, offense will still get you killed. My advantage ratio is honestly 90%aggressive damage done to 10% damage done to the new meta builds of tanking.
Not only on advantage is these set ups out tanking executes but they are also bursting for 100%of hp(unreachable DAMAGE).

I have a theory about why this is, and why we are continuously forced into a tank meta. In essence, orientations are correspondent to stats and armor. Damage orrientations don't offer adequate survival, and survival orrientations are typically the opposing trade off.

Since groups essentially overpower lesser groups, or solo players as a base rule, players are forced to either skirt opposing groups with high damage/kite, or go balls deep and push hard defense for maximum multi-enemy resistance. Since damage individual damage is generally competitively ineffective at toe to toe and the risk of engaging outnumbered with a high damage spec is high, most players opt for the spec that keeps them alive the longest. This in turn, generates a widespread tank meta, because the benefit of group focus makes up for the lost damage (again advantaging groups over solo).

All of that said...

VIVEC IS COMING.

Fur_like_snow

Swap prey for curse. Drop the volatile pick up RR and frags. Seems like a lot of the issue is play style. Switch it up OP.

angelofdeath333

Something tells me your "burst-combo" is pets/prey and lightning-heavy attacks...

phoenixkungfu

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Swap prey for curse. Drop the volatile pick up RR and frags. Seems like a lot of the issue is play style. Switch it up OP.

Thx you but my pet sorcerer passion comes out sometimes... what is your opinion on. A build that tank/ absorb 90% the time and attacks 10% of the time. Should this build be about to full hp burst.

Fur_like_snow

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Swap prey for curse. Drop the volatile pick up RR and frags. Seems like a lot of the issue is play style. Switch it up OP.

Thx you but my pet sorcerer passion comes out sometimes... what is your opinion on. A build that tank/ absorb 90% the time and attacks 10% of the time. Should this build be about to full hp burst.

Are you taking about stamDKs again? I personally have no issue with that play style. Switch up your build. Try different morphs as I suggested earlier.

Fur_like_snow

angelofdeath333 wrote: »

Something tells me your "burst-combo" is pets/prey and lightning-heavy attacks...

His combo has no burst it’s all sustained no wonder he struggles to close a kill. The set up is more like a PvE build than a competitive PvP build.

Sarousse

Removing shield ultimate, problem fixed.

Daffen

Sustained damage is much easier to deal with than burst damage. This means counting pets as source of burst is wrong and therefore daedric prey is a bad morph. Soul assault is easily countered by block, los and healing with vigor or rapid regen. Reccomend changing it with overload. Same with meteor, it is a good ultimate but way too predictable by experienced players and easily countered, reccomend having temporal guard or resto ultimate backbar. Having 2 pets makes you only have 6 skill slots to use for damage and shields. You need 2 shields, dark conversion, streak, armor buff, frags, endless fury, curse and a spammable. This is 9 slots and too many slots to be able to use a pet. Best way to fit everything is to use mighty chudan so you dont need an armor buff so you can slot a pet. You lose too much damage slotting 2 pets.

phoenixkungfu

Daffen wrote: »

Sustained damage is much easier to deal with than burst damage. This means counting pets as source of burst is wrong and therefore daedric prey is a bad morph. Soul assault is easily countered by block, los and healing with vigor or rapid regen. Reccomend changing it with overload. Same with meteor, it is a good ultimate but way too predictable by experienced players and easily countered, reccomend having temporal guard or resto ultimate backbar. Having 2 pets makes you only have 6 skill slots to use for damage and shields. You need 2 shields, dark conversion, streak, armor buff, frags, endless fury, curse and a spammable. This is 9 slots and too many slots to be able to use a pet. Best way to fit everything is to use mighty chudan so you dont need an armor buff so you can slot a pet. You lose too much damage slotting 2 pets.

I really dont want to get off topic but your just display given up alot for a little. It's a huge nerf. Well but to the op. What is your opinion on a builds that on average absorb 90% more damage than they put out...BUT HAVE HIGH PLAYER KILLS.

SilencedPanda

What daffen suggested is actually probably your best bet. Don’t play sorc so I wouldn’t know what exactly works well with the class however. He is right. Sustained damage isn’t as good as burst damage. Soul assault is easily counterable. Your thinking with max mag and damage is why you can’t kill anyone. You can in fact deal damage and not use what daffen suggested. Definitely not a nerf in the slightest. You can’t help someone fix their problems when they don’t want to change their playstyle. Technically you’re the one that’s giving up a lot for a little. Adjust your playstyle.

I_killed_Vivec

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I DIED TO A BUILD AFTER DOING A MILLION DAMAGE. The dk did 80k total damage.

THE GAME IS NOT ENJOYABLE. LIKE THIS, ITS BAD GAMEPLAY. TERRIBLE DESIGN

This is what all of the changes lead too.

Presumably you're not being entirely serious, but I don't see a problem with your example.

If someone can absorb the million damage that you do and kill you with the paltry 80k that they put out then maybe they earnt that kill, and maybe you didn't deserve to live.

Also, while you might say it's not enjoyable and bad gameplay, consider what your victor thought - they'll be laughing all the way back to their guild with tales of a "noob" who dished out a million damage but fell to just 80k.

Counter-punching is a valid tactic, it's why boxing is more than just a slugfest.

Nobody should get an "I win" button solely because they can hit hard.