Seriously ZOS what have you got against support roles??

Ozby

Looking at the patch notes Tank & Healer Monster set's Nerfed again!! Why are you doing this to the support classes. Content is already hard enough to complete for the majority of the player base without these nerfs. I'm starting to think you really only care about DPS players. Maybe you all need to go into VAS+2 on a tank and a healer to see using these sets just how useful they are and to see that they are not OP.

Kesstryl

Agree, not happy for my PVE tanks next patch.

FakeFox

At least for trials support has been buffed with Masterstaff and Sympony buffs and two new support sets.

Ozby

True that new set is at least nice.

Hooded_1

Ozby wrote: »

Looking at the patch notes Tank & Healer Monster set's Nerfed again!! Why are you doing this to the support classes. Content is already hard enough to complete for the majority of the player base without these nerfs. I'm starting to think you really only care about DPS players. Maybe you all need to go into VAS+2 on a tank and a healer to see using these sets just how useful they are and to see that they are not OP.

I’m assuming you’re talking about Bloodspawn... They haven’t nerfed the tank role, they have just moved the goalposts. Instead of running Bloodspawn tanks will now aim at obtaining Tremorscale and/or still run Symphony, depending on who runs what. And instead of running Stonekeeper, they can now run Grundwulf (they still could have done that before, and imo Grundwulf was better than stonekeeper anyway) or the new heavy mythic item.

Kurat

Hooded_1 wrote: »

Ozby wrote: »

Looking at the patch notes Tank & Healer Monster set's Nerfed again!! Why are you doing this to the support classes. Content is already hard enough to complete for the majority of the player base without these nerfs. I'm starting to think you really only care about DPS players. Maybe you all need to go into VAS+2 on a tank and a healer to see using these sets just how useful they are and to see that they are not OP.

I’m assuming you’re talking about Bloodspawn... They haven’t nerfed the tank role, they have just moved the goalposts. Instead of running Bloodspawn tanks will now aim at obtaining Tremorscale and/or still run Symphony, depending on who runs what. And instead of running Stonekeeper, they can now run Grundwulf (they still could have done that before, and imo Grundwulf was better than stonekeeper anyway) or the new heavy mythic item.

OP is talking about pve tanks not pvp. No one wears Bloodspawn in trials.
The nerfs are once again done because of pvp. This time because heavy tank meta.

Kesstryl

All Tank masks have been nerfed, including PVE ones like Lord Warden. And yes some PVE tanks do run Bloodspawn for ulti regen on Warhorn

BalticBlues

PVE TANKS NEED the full Magicka and Stamina regen of monster sets in DLC dungeons and trials.
ZOS, why don't you just cut all monster sets to 50% in PvP instead of making PVE TANKS SUCK?
There still are not enough tanks in the game - and these core nerfs are not making TANKING easier

John_Falstaff

It's like they -love- kicking supports in the teeth. Okay, mitigation too strong? We were running Bloodspawn in pve for ultimate generation, why touch that? It's like ZOS isn't even aware of PvE state of things. Lord Warden was a good set, it wasn't even ran that often, only on stacked fights and it wasn't providing that much mitigation, it was situational by now, and now they're just murdering it. Bloody hell, Stonekeeper wasn't used much outside of new tanks and holding axes in vAA, and now you're making the learning way for new tanks longer. It's turning into a proverbial circus.

BalticBlues

John_Falstaff wrote: »

It's like ZOS isn't even aware of PvE state of things.

Yes, I also have the feeling that the new ZOS crew only cares about PvP.
PvE Tanks HATE asking Healers for Synergies to get resources in vet DLC,
but with the new -50% regen nerfs tanks will become SYNERGY SUCKERS

Mumbles_the_Tank

Kesstryl wrote: »

All Tank masks have been nerfed, including PVE ones like Lord Warden. And yes some PVE tanks do run Bloodspawn for ulti regen on Warhorn

BS is bottom of the barrel, wear it if there’s nothing better, PvE tank helm. It was a helm you get to wear while you farm the better ones. Way too RNG in the majority of PvE scenarios and for optimized raiding you want reliable helms that you can depend on.

Hooded_1 wrote: »

And instead of running Stonekeeper, they can now run Grundwulf.

Precisely what kind of PvE tank build has enough crit to make Grundwulf reliable?

BalticBlues wrote: »

PVE TANKS NEED the full Magicka and Stamina regen of monster sets in DLC dungeons and trials.
ZOS, why don't you just cut all monster sets to 50% in PvP instead of making PVE TANKS SUCK?
There still are not enough tanks in the game - and these core nerfs are not making TANKING easier

No - yet again - stop it. Tanking has been made easier and easier every patch for more than a year.

If you NEED those sets to get by in PvE - you are not learning to sustain the fight yourself. The nerfs are heavy handed and I don’t doubt will see some further tuning but regardless you should not be crutching on these types of sets. They’re a fine buffer while you learn but the end goal should always be removing those sets for something that helps the group - not yourself. There are very, very few true solo tanking scenarios that require these selfish sustain setups.

And again - the numbers don’t really matter versus what is now over a year long effort to continually remove options for tanking setups and provide almost nothing new in exchange. Maybe ZOS believes this will make tanking more accessible or something?

I’d love to know the true reasoning behind this year long assault on our role’s already limited options @ZOS_BrianWheeler.

John_Falstaff

@Mumbles_the_Tank , I'll tell you a surprising thing now: everyone learning to tank crutches on something at some period of that process, and yes, people are using Bloodspawn for higher warhorn or while learning, people use Stonekeeper while learning, people use Lord Warden in some places where it's best given the current group (I used it on last stage of vBRP for instance), it was a -choice- we had, please don't tell "just use different sets, they're better anyway" - for one, they're not better for all people and all groups and all situations, and for another, choice matters (this is where I agree with you). I'll take ten sets that perform nicely in some situations or for some people/groups over one set that is good but generic.

kojou

The main problem IMO is that things that are good for tanking get abused used in PvP. PvP players have the same needs as PvE tanks and are willing to make sacrifices to damage potential to get better sustain and mitigation.

It sure feels like they went down the list and destroyed everything that was good for tanking though.

Mumbles_the_Tank

@John_Falstaff No surprise at all. I actually completely agree with everything you said - I simply don’t agree the sustain set nerfs specifically are something to get fixated on the way @BalticBlues has versus the blanket removal of choices for all possible tanking scenarios and various levels of group competence.

Stonekeeper and Engine are honestly a little too strong on live in the few instances I use them. Again the nerfs are heavy handed and I would expect some easing on the numbers by week 3 or 4 anyway.

But this overall removal of choice has been ongoing for some time and there is either a specific goal that remains completely opaque to me or they simply don’t understand what is already enjoyable about tanking in their own game.

I’ll not back down on BS being overrated tho - horn uptime is fine without it the majority of places and it’s too RNG to be a reliable choice for anyone to rely on as a source for resists. Different strokes, different folks - I’ve always accepted that about tanking - but I won’t ever take RNG over reliability for myself or my groups.

TheSeraphim

ZOS has a very interesting idea on how to make people want to play tanks.

BalticBlues

TheSeraphim wrote: »

ZOS has a very interesting idea on how to make people want to play tanks.

I will stop pugging as a Tank with these -50% regen changes.
Because when the group finder places a Tank into a 3-man-DD group without healer,
the nerfed monster masks will no longer be able to sustain tanking without healer's synergies.

SodanTok

ZOS: this patch we will adjust all sets to one standard of how monster set should be powerful

People on this forum: PVP AGAIN NERFING MY SETS ZOS ONLY CARES ABOUT PVP (the laggy unplayable mess 90% of population already left)

John_Falstaff

@Mumbles_the_Tank , true, I'll agree, it's less about loss of sustain and more about choice. For 3DD runs, I wear Symphony/Yoln/Olorime backbar, I seldom gear up for selfish defense or sustain aside from certain places, but I absolutely despise the fact that people learning tanking (in general or specific content - nothing bad in getting sturdy first time tanking axes, or being extra rugged learning vBRP) are forced into fewer sets, even if they'll be new meta.

I strongly suspect that ZOS nerfs monster helms to force people into building more around their new mythics. Loss of a slot is a worse choice than wearing monster helm? Easy, just nerf monster helms until they're worse than wearing one or two mythics instead.

Mumbles_the_Tank

@John_Falstaff I feel I should clarify I’m not one of the end gamers who just disparages a sustain helm for the sake of it.

Way it was taught to me is that you can make those selfish choices to learn a fight but it’s best for your group to keep that window as brief as possible. Otherwise when you take the sustain set off - you’re essentially learning the fight all over again.

Sadly right now I’m eyeing everything besides Tremorscale and Symphony and wondering why not just wear Grothdarr for some extra damage when I don’t need either of those two! Arguably more impactful than any of the remaining choices after these notes.

Anyron

BalticBlues wrote: »

PVE TANKS NEED the full Magicka and Stamina regen of monster sets in DLC dungeons and trials.
ZOS, why don't you just cut all monster sets to 50% in PvP instead of making PVE TANKS SUCK?
There still are not enough tanks in the game - and these core nerfs are not making TANKING easier

They arent doing it because of pvp.. Nobody asked about this change.. Read patchnotes
Its because they want to have monster set and 5 piece sets same strength

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

The lead combat director....over all combat...was the former pvp director. Of course he's going to nerf pve tanking and healing because of pvp whining about tank meta. Pve has only ever been hurt continuously by pvp metas, and I'm so very sick of it. It's not like they could adjust resistance or tankiness through BATTLE SPIRIT or anything. Nope. Nerf it all.

BalticBlues

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

they could adjust resistance or tankiness through BATTLE SPIRIT

Indeed. It sucks the fun out of Greymoor for me that ZOS is unable to balance PvP tanking via BattleSpirit, so they nerf Tanks in PvP AND PvE to the point that PvE tanking is becoming a resource management nightmare. While DDs and Healers just can throw in a HA when their resources are low, Tanks can die easily if doing this in the wrong moment, sometimes it is even dangerous to lose a block for a synergy. I wonder if the dev who is responsible for the -50% regen of monster sets EVER tanked some of the latest vDLC dungeons...

John_Falstaff

BalticBlues wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

they could adjust resistance or tankiness through BATTLE SPIRIT

Indeed. It sucks the fun out of Greymoor for me that ZOS is unable to balance PvP tanking via BattleSpirit, so they nerf Tanks in PvP AND PvE to the point that PvE tanking is becoming a resource management nightmare. While DDs and Healers just can throw in a HA when their resources are low, Tanks can die easily if doing this in the wrong moment, sometimes it is even dangerous to lose a block for a synergy. I wonder if the dev who is responsible for the -50% regen of monster sets EVER tanked some of the latest vDLC dungeons...

Pretty sure PvP is a reason, but not the only one. They need to push their mythics with new update, and what kind of sale it would be if they're worse for a slot than using a monster set. It's marketing. People want money. Usual thing, nothing to be surprised about.

Mumbles_the_Tank

BalticBlues wrote: »

PvE tanking is becoming a resource management nightmare. While DDs and Healers just can throw in a HA when their resources are low, Tanks can die easily if doing this in the wrong moment, sometimes it is even dangerous to lose a block for a synergy.

Cripes! The entire point and nuance of tanking is resource management - that is the bulk of being a good tank.

The more you post the less bothered I am about the sustain set nerfs - if this is what current tanks think about actually having to work for their sustain - then nerf away ZOS.

Olupajmibanan

FakeFox wrote: »

At least for trials support has been buffed with Masterstaff and Sympony buffs and two new support sets.

Symphony change is a big buff. However, my concern now is that even after Rkugamz buff, there is no reason to pick it over Sympony.

usmcjdking

BalticBlues wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

they could adjust resistance or tankiness through BATTLE SPIRIT

Indeed. It sucks the fun out of Greymoor for me that ZOS is unable to balance PvP tanking via BattleSpirit, so they nerf Tanks in PvP AND PvE to the point that PvE tanking is becoming a resource management nightmare. While DDs and Healers just can throw in a HA when their resources are low, Tanks can die easily if doing this in the wrong moment, sometimes it is even dangerous to lose a block for a synergy. I wonder if the dev who is responsible for the -50% regen of monster sets EVER tanked some of the latest vDLC dungeons...

If resources are not the issue then what is the difficulty of tanking?

Facing the right way? Hitting the taunt button and synergy button every so few seconds?

Tanking too simple to begin with.

John_Falstaff

usmcjdking wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

they could adjust resistance or tankiness through BATTLE SPIRIT

Indeed. It sucks the fun out of Greymoor for me that ZOS is unable to balance PvP tanking via BattleSpirit, so they nerf Tanks in PvP AND PvE to the point that PvE tanking is becoming a resource management nightmare. While DDs and Healers just can throw in a HA when their resources are low, Tanks can die easily if doing this in the wrong moment, sometimes it is even dangerous to lose a block for a synergy. I wonder if the dev who is responsible for the -50% regen of monster sets EVER tanked some of the latest vDLC dungeons...

If resources are not the issue then what is the difficulty of tanking?

Facing the right way? Hitting the taunt button and synergy button every so few seconds?

Tanking too simple to begin with.

I'll just assume you never tanked vHoF. You really shouldn't make uninformed claims like those. Or off-tanked vAS+2, or... well, generally seems like you don't know a single thing about PvE tanking.

BalticBlues

usmcjdking wrote: »

If resources are not the issue then what is the difficulty of tanking?

Being tank, resource management is ALWAYS the issue.
But with the -50% monster regen nerfs it often will become a nightmare.

Being tank, you need to watch bosses precisely.
Since One-Shot-DLCs, one missed block - you are dead.

Even worse, sometimes blocking is not enough, so
one missed roll-dodge - you are dead.

With zero ressources you are also dead. So from now on with -50% monster regen
one missed synergy (or no synergies with 3DDs) - you are dead.

And here the nightmare begins: You see a one-shot AND a crucial synergy coming
no matter how you decide, block/dodge or synergy - you are dead.

Tanking is the most risky and most demanding role regarding mechs.
I am fine with that. But it should not become a nightmare.

YandereGirlfriend

I strongly agree with @John_Falstaff and his thesis that monster helms are primarily being undermined to make Mythic items look more desirable by comparison.

There is also undoubtedly an element of hubris with the current development team, that monster sets were conceived by the ancien regime and they are now working diligently to erase the highest profile vestiges of their work, somewhat akin to cropping Trotsky out of old photos.

Likely, too, there is an element of wanting to address the tank meta, but the combat team misunderstands the engine of the problem. Monster sets and most gear are not the problem, rather it is the easily available (especially in CP!), stacking sources of %-based mitigation. Just get rid of them, all of them! Or make them exclusive to PvE like Aegis. Do that and you can revert the overwhelming majority of the nerfs taken over the last year.

satanio

Ozby wrote: »

Looking at the patch notes Tank & Healer Monster set's Nerfed again!! Why are you doing this to the support classes. Content is already hard enough to complete for the majority of the player base without these nerfs. I'm starting to think you really only care about DPS players. Maybe you all need to go into VAS+2 on a tank and a healer to see using these sets just how useful they are and to see that they are not OP.

They are listening to the playerbase and as always, they cherrypick the worst thing from player feedback.
1. Recently, they've introduced new self sustain sets for DD, what did players say? "Sustain is not an issue, we don't need sustain sets." And why is not sustain an issue? Because of supports and the support sets.
2. They like to standardize things, so when they've introduced Mother Ciannait magicka recovery feature and everyone was like: "Hey, it's crap" they decided to standardize other sets that offer sustain to same "hey, it's crap" level, as usual.

My tank point of view:
Honestly, I don't think sustain will be big of an issue, the amount of times that Symphony buffed me was abysmal.
Bloodspawn recently, in it's live form, really dissapointed me, it is bad - maybe not on Ozara or other heavy trash fights. When I want more horns or necro atro ultis, I rather go for 5xTava, 5xAlkosh on Front, 3x Potentates on Back, 1x Chokethorn for magicka recovery - try that for AS+2 MT, works beautifully.
New Chokethorn, I may try it in vCR+3, for some solo portal heals, instead of Earthgore. Speaking of Earthgore, I'm not sure if I could "feel" the nerf.
Engine guardian, last time I used this set was three years ago in vAA. Set was good, but you could live without it.
Grundwulf... Legends speak of a tank that uses this set, but I am yet to see one with my own eyes.
I don't understand the nerf to 2nd Lord Warden set bonus, but again, I think it was because "WE DON'T NEED MORE ARMOR, you already have enough mitigation" crowd.
Rkugamz buff is always placed in a place where I should not or cannot be .
Stonekeeper nerf is sad, but I wasn't using this set very often, so I cannot express my opinion about this set sufficiently.
I used Thorvukuun for trash fights... so the nerf hurts a bit, when the waves of trash live more than 8 seconds. .
Tremorscale - I am happy that I tank in a group with 6+ magicka DDs and don't need to wear this ugly mask with ugly animation.
Troll king, now this may be an issue, I know for a fact, that there were situations when healers just equipped this set and it immediately solved our progression problem .

I would love to see some healers point of view that would go over the sets changes that affected healing in any way. Anyone?

JasonWangTaiwan

Nerf certain set because they are often used won't make other sets better.
Popular sets are used because most of them are reasonable choice,
forcing people to use sets have weird effects by nerfing regular ones is funny.