2017 Developer Comments About Master and Maelstrom Weapons: "Extraneous Stat Bonuses"

GrumpyDuckling

In September 2017, ZOS reworked Master and Maelstrom weapons. What they did was remove "unique enchantments" that the items possessed, and reclassified the skill-specific weapon modifiers as "sets." This allowed players to now put enchantments or slot poisons on their Master and Maelstrom weapons, while still maintaining the skill-specific weapon modifiers.

At the time, there was no such thing as a 1 pc bonus on Arena/Trial-style weapons. This led ZOS to say that the stat bonuses that were on the weapon enchantments (for example, Maelstrom 2H gave 189 weapon damage) were "extraneous stat bonuses," so they removed those stat bonuses from the weapons to maintain the standards at the time.

The Master and Maelstrom unique enchantments have been rebuilt as Item Sets, with the new Asylum Weapons following suit as an Item Set and not an enchantment. This means you can now safely enchant and re-enchant these weapons, and still gain the special ability-altering benefit.

Developer Comments:
Due to the fact these items can now be enchanted or poisoned normally, their extraneous stat bonuses have been removed. For example, the Maelstrom’s Greatsword no longer adds 189 Weapon Damage on top of the modifier to Critical Charge.

The Master and Maelstrom One Hand and Shield Item Sets now require you to use both the One Handed Weapon and Shield together. Since the shield did not need to be paired with the One Handed Weapon originally, a brand new shield will be mailed to you for each One Handed Weapon you currently possess.

It’s also worth noting that you will still be able to back bar weapons, such as the Maelstrom Bow or Inferno Staff, and still receive the bonus from them when their abilities are active.

Source:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/371878/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-0-clockwork-city/p1

At the time, ZOS could not have predicted the future and realized that they would be adding 1 piece bonuses to Master and Maelstrom weapons to bring them up to standard with other Arena/Trial weapons that contain 1 piece bonuses and, at the time, had yet to be added into the game. It is understandable, at the time, that ZOS would describe those stat bonuses on Master and Maelstrom weapons as "extraneous." But now, in 2020, stat bonuses are no longer "extraneous," as evidence of ZOS' intent to apply 1 piece bonuses to Veteran Master and Veteran Maelstrom weapons.

Simply put, ZOS, you removed stat bonuses from Master and Maelstrom weapons because you once described them as "extraneous," which they were for the standards at the time. But now that stat bonuses are no longer "extraneous," your decision not to update the existing weapons is inconsistent with the updating and balancing standards you have already established with current Master and Maelstrom weapons. If we have learned anything about your balancing/updating in the past year-plus, it is that you love standards. Follow your own standards and update the current Master and Maelstrom weapons.

olsborg

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Simply put, ZOS, you removed stat bonuses from Master and Maelstrom weapons because you once described them as "extraneous," which they were for the standards at the time. But now that stat bonuses are no longer "extraneous," your decision not to update the existing weapons is inconsistent with the updating and balancing standards you have already established with current Master and Maelstrom weapons. If we have learned anything about your balancing/updating in the past year-plus, it is that you love standards. Follow your own standards and update the current Master and Maelstrom weapons.

Agreed. Its like..

Did you do veteran dragonstar arena and got the master weapons of your desires? Yes, yes I did. Well did you do them after 25th of may 2020? No, no i did not. Well screw you, hah!

iCaliban

If you have already put in the time to farm them, then you shouldnt be penalized. Period.

Giljabrar

Well made post, bump

WrathOfInnos

In 2017 the 1pc bonus wasn’t really needed to make arena weapons competitive. Two handed weapons only counted as a single set piece, so 5-5-2 sets was not an option with staves, bows, or greatswords/battleaxes. The meta was to use a 5pc set, a 2pc monster helm, and 4 pieces of a set like IA (with Minor Slayer on the 3pc). So the only thing you’d lose running an arena weapon was the 4pc bonus of your front bar set.

Summerset changed this, allowing a single weapon to count as 2 set pieces, which created 5-5-2 builds. Now to use an arena weapon you’d be sacrificing the 4 and 5 piece set bonuses, which is over 3X the opportunity cost of the previous meta. This is when front bar arena weapons died, including Maelstrom and Master Daggers, Master and Asylum Staves (although this one has returned due to a favorable bug), Asylum 2H, and Master bow.

That was when we started requesting a 1pc bonus be added, with the new perfected gear setup being an ideal way to implement it. Note this is not the same thing as the first version of Master and Maelstrom weapons, since they had only a stat boost and no additional set bonus (as you mentioned, the unique effect was an enchant, and prevented using a Weapon or Spell Damage glyph). It’s also not the same as Perf Asylum weapons, since I would argue many of these also need a 1pc stat bonus to become viable.

Now 2 years later it seems we’ve convinced ZOS to give new life to many of these old arena weapons. However they choose to distribute these new versions, it is a win for players. You literally cannot be worse off after this goes live, it benefits everyone.

Lole

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In 2017 the 1pc bonus wasn’t really needed to make arena weapons competitive. Two handed weapons only counted as a single set piece, so 5-5-2 sets was not an option with staves, bows, or greatswords/battleaxes. The meta was to use a 5pc set, a 2pc monster helm, and 4 pieces of a set like IA (with Minor Slayer on the 3pc). So the only thing you’d lose running an arena weapon was the 4pc bonus of your front bar set.

Summerset changed this, allowing a single weapon to count as 2 set pieces, which created 5-5-2 builds. Now to use an arena weapon you’d be sacrificing the 4 and 5 piece set bonuses, which is over 3X the opportunity cost of the previous meta. This is when front bar arena weapons died, including Maelstrom and Master Daggers, Master and Asylum Staves (although this one has returned due to a favorable bug), Asylum 2H, and Master bow.

That was when we started requesting a 1pc bonus be added, with the new perfected gear setup being an ideal way to implement it. Note this is not the same thing as the first version of Master and Maelstrom weapons, since they had only a stat boost and no additional set bonus (as you mentioned, the unique effect was an enchant, and prevented using a Weapon or Spell Damage glyph). It’s also not the same as Perf Asylum weapons, since I would argue many of these also need a 1pc stat bonus to become viable.

Now 2 years later it seems we’ve convinced ZOS to give new life to many of these old arena weapons. However they choose to distribute these new versions, it is a win for players. You literally cannot be worse off after this goes live, it benefits everyone.

No people want bis for free since they farmed the items 2 years ago...
If you want it then farm it, else you can keep your old weapon, end of story

idk

OP seems to mischaracterize what they quote. I see it as Zos removed the unique enchantments and had the weapon retain it's skill altering aspect and allowed us to enchant the weapon in place of the static stats. Heck, even in what OP quotes it pretty much says that.

Alucardo

iCaliban wrote: »

If you have already put in the time to farm them, then you shouldnt be penalized. Period.

Correct. I would look past this if the arenas were changed in someway, so that you're farming a new experience for a new weapon. But as it stands it's all the same, so they should just be upgraded.

GrumpyDuckling

idk wrote: »

OP seems to mischaracterize what they quote. I see it as Zos removed the unique enchantments and had the weapon retain it's skill altering aspect and allowed us to enchant the weapon in place of the static stats. Heck, even in what OP quotes it pretty much says that.

What is mischaracterized? Sentences 2 through 5 of the original post describe what you are talking about.

SirMewser

Lole wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In 2017 the 1pc bonus wasn’t really needed to make arena weapons competitive. Two handed weapons only counted as a single set piece, so 5-5-2 sets was not an option with staves, bows, or greatswords/battleaxes. The meta was to use a 5pc set, a 2pc monster helm, and 4 pieces of a set like IA (with Minor Slayer on the 3pc). So the only thing you’d lose running an arena weapon was the 4pc bonus of your front bar set.

Summerset changed this, allowing a single weapon to count as 2 set pieces, which created 5-5-2 builds. Now to use an arena weapon you’d be sacrificing the 4 and 5 piece set bonuses, which is over 3X the opportunity cost of the previous meta. This is when front bar arena weapons died, including Maelstrom and Master Daggers, Master and Asylum Staves (although this one has returned due to a favorable bug), Asylum 2H, and Master bow.

That was when we started requesting a 1pc bonus be added, with the new perfected gear setup being an ideal way to implement it. Note this is not the same thing as the first version of Master and Maelstrom weapons, since they had only a stat boost and no additional set bonus (as you mentioned, the unique effect was an enchant, and prevented using a Weapon or Spell Damage glyph). It’s also not the same as Perf Asylum weapons, since I would argue many of these also need a 1pc stat bonus to become viable.

Now 2 years later it seems we’ve convinced ZOS to give new life to many of these old arena weapons. However they choose to distribute these new versions, it is a win for players. You literally cannot be worse off after this goes live, it benefits everyone.

No people want bis for free since they farmed the items 2 years ago...
If you want it then farm it, else you can keep your old weapon, end of story

idk wrote: »

OP seems to mischaracterize what they quote. I see it as Zos removed the unique enchantments and had the weapon retain it's skill altering aspect and allowed us to enchant the weapon in place of the static stats. Heck, even in what OP quotes it pretty much says that.

Regardless of the enchantment being reallocated as a stat bonus so actual enchants can be put on them, why do we have variants of pre-nerfed arena weapons in veteran Blackrose Prison that contradicts the statement of stat bonuses being "extraneous"? The message they imposed seems very obfuscated, that's not debatable. It's insensitive.

You (wrongfully) assume that people want what is "BiS" which would presume that everyone is on some sort of bandwagon - that the weapons will be stronger than perfected Blackrose Prison weapons while also discounting the past nerf to arena weapons losing their status bonuses.

With the same perspective you could say for new players (or players who could not complete vMA to begin with) that there is literally no downside: you are getting Maelstrom weapons essentially for free.

The reality is; we don't know what stat bonuses we will get, if there will be revert/compensation, higher difficulty, or what the general implementation is. What we do know is what they once were.

Many will remember and I assure you, those people are neither inconsequential nor idiots.

Onefrkncrzypope

olsborg wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Simply put, ZOS, you removed stat bonuses from Master and Maelstrom weapons because you once described them as "extraneous," which they were for the standards at the time. But now that stat bonuses are no longer "extraneous," your decision not to update the existing weapons is inconsistent with the updating and balancing standards you have already established with current Master and Maelstrom weapons. If we have learned anything about your balancing/updating in the past year-plus, it is that you love standards. Follow your own standards and update the current Master and Maelstrom weapons.

Agreed. Its like..

Did you do veteran dragonstar arena and got the master weapons of your desires? Yes, yes I did. Well did you do them after 25th of may 2020? No, no i did not. Well screw you, hah!

My eyes....

GrumpyDuckling

A month has passed, we are getting close to the update, and all is still quiet on this front.

Zenimax Online Studios, I would like to again remind you that your decision not to update the existing Maelstrom and Master weapons is inconsistent with the updating precedent that has been established with these weapons. Stat bonuses are no longer "extraneous," and none of the content has changed to warrant making acquisition of "old" VMA weapons any different from "perfected" VMA weapons.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler , Please update the existing weapons to show that ZOS intends to remain consistent and maintain their standards.