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ZOS. You need to balance your skills better.

Stx
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Specifically spammables, and major buffs.

One thing I love about this game is the character and build customization. Making a combo of sets and skills to tweak a character how you want it. However, in some cases, your skill balance is so poor that it forces us into choices we don't want to take.

For example... my main is a templar. Originally, I envisioned him as a warrior knight who basically used all weapon skills with some group support skills like ritual, echoing vigor etc. But due to how poorly skills in this game are balanced, I cant use weapon spammables. The amount of damage and buffs I would lose by using 2 handed skills over biting jabs is INSANE. Not only does jabs deal more base damage, it also deals splash damage! It also procs minor protection for me, it also procs major savagery for me, and it also procs burning light, a class passive, making the damage gap even more ridiculous.

Another example... I recently made a warden. And I wanted to play him as a sort of ranger with a bear who uses dual wield skills, bow skills, his bear, and maybe a few nature themed abilities. Well as it turns out.. the netch, the creepy laser beam bug jelly thing native to MORROWIND, (my character is nord btw) is not only my main recovery skill, it also provides cleanses, a free heal, and major brutality... I want to drop this skill so bad because I loath the way it looks, but I cant. It's just too good. The weapon skill sources of major brutality just dont compare.

I'm not even looking at this from a min/max point of view. I have no problem sacrificing SOME performance to enjoy my characters theme. But some skills are just too good, and some too poor.

To summarize, you need to do a lot better job at looking at your skills in a vacuum, looking at the passives they interact with, and making sure that every skill line has upsides to it that make it at the very least a competitive option to class skills. Also, some class skills are simply bonkers. I love this game and all the skill options we have, please let us actually use them!
  • iCaliban
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    Roleplay should not influence balance decisions. Drop the skill if it offends your sensibilities.

    Skills with multiple effects are the keystones of eso combat. Templar jabs gives minor protection, heals or gives major savagery, and is aoe. Sorc steak acts as a mobility tool + aoe stun, dk whip acts a strong self heal and damage skill. Etc etc.
    Edited by iCaliban on April 8, 2020 5:53PM
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  • Stx
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    iCaliban wrote: »
    Roleplay should not influence balance decisions. Drop the skill if it offends your sensibilities.

    Skills with multiple effects are the keystones of eso combat. Templar jabs gives minor protection, heals or gives major savagery, and is aoe. Sorc steak acts as a mobility tool + aoe stun, dk whip acts a strong self heal and damage skill. Etc etc.

    This has little to do with role play. This has to do with skill balance, specifically comparing skills from different trees that fill the same role.
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  • iCaliban
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    Stx wrote: »
    iCaliban wrote: »
    Roleplay should not influence balance decisions. Drop the skill if it offends your sensibilities.

    Skills with multiple effects are the keystones of eso combat. Templar jabs gives minor protection, heals or gives major savagery, and is aoe. Sorc steak acts as a mobility tool + aoe stun, dk whip acts a strong self heal and damage skill. Etc etc.

    This has little to do with role play. This has to do with skill balance, specifically comparing skills from different trees that fill the same role.

    You said and I quote " I want to drop this skill so bad because I loathe the way it looks"

    Your dislike for the visuals of a skill and wanting it nerfed for that reason is entirely due to roleplay reasons

    Your post is clearly about roleplay preferences over actual balance. Wardens and other classes require skills like those to function at a high level. Wasting a GCD per buff is unreasonable.

    You can drop netch and use 2h spammable over jabs. You can clear any content in the game with those choices as long as you compensate
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  • zvavi
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    iCaliban wrote: »
    Sorc steak

    Delicious.

    On a more serious note, warden was introduced during morrowind, therefore has morrowind elements. Don't want netch? Your problem. Heavy attack more.
    Templar is using weapon for jabs, since it is part of the "aedric spear" skill line.

    While I do believe some balance changes to make classes feel more unique, and templar jabs are indeed over preforming, your take on it is subjective and based on how you "feel" like playing, which everyone has a different take on. Therefore, nope.
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  • Stx
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    iCaliban wrote: »
    Stx wrote: »
    iCaliban wrote: »
    Roleplay should not influence balance decisions. Drop the skill if it offends your sensibilities.

    Skills with multiple effects are the keystones of eso combat. Templar jabs gives minor protection, heals or gives major savagery, and is aoe. Sorc steak acts as a mobility tool + aoe stun, dk whip acts a strong self heal and damage skill. Etc etc.

    This has little to do with role play. This has to do with skill balance, specifically comparing skills from different trees that fill the same role.

    You said and I quote " I want to drop this skill so bad because I loathe the way it looks"

    Your dislike for the visuals of a skill and wanting it nerfed for that reason is entirely due to roleplay reasons

    Your post is clearly about roleplay preferences over actual balance. Wardens and other classes require skills like those to function at a high level. Wasting a GCD per buff is unreasonable.

    You can drop netch and use 2h spammable over jabs. You can clear any content in the game with those choices as long as you compensate

    You could clear any content using the two worst 5 piece sets in the game, but does that mean they should ignore fixing the bad sets? I'm not sure what your argument is if you even have one. My reasoning for wanting better balance is irrelevant. What is relevant is that there IS imbalance.
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  • Stx
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    zvavi wrote: »
    iCaliban wrote: »
    Sorc steak

    Delicious.

    On a more serious note, warden was introduced during morrowind, therefore has morrowind elements. Don't want netch? Your problem. Heavy attack more.
    Templar is using weapon for jabs, since it is part of the "aedric spear" skill line.

    While I do believe some balance changes to make classes feel more unique, and templar jabs are indeed over preforming, your take on it is subjective and based on how you "feel" like playing, which everyone has a different take on. Therefore, nope.

    How can you agree that jabs are over performing and then call it subjective? It's literally fact....
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  • Donny_Vito
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    The skills do seem balanced. You want them balanced around a certain RP play-style (yours) which is the real problem.

    Edit: I will say the Burning Light passive is too strong. Jabs is not the issue, it's the Burning Light passive which can account for 25-30% of your jab damage.
    Edited by Donny_Vito on April 8, 2020 6:25PM
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  • Jeremy
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    Stx wrote: »
    Specifically spammables, and major buffs.

    One thing I love about this game is the character and build customization. Making a combo of sets and skills to tweak a character how you want it. However, in some cases, your skill balance is so poor that it forces us into choices we don't want to take.

    For example... my main is a templar. Originally, I envisioned him as a warrior knight who basically used all weapon skills with some group support skills like ritual, echoing vigor etc. But due to how poorly skills in this game are balanced, I cant use weapon spammables. The amount of damage and buffs I would lose by using 2 handed skills over biting jabs is INSANE. Not only does jabs deal more base damage, it also deals splash damage! It also procs minor protection for me, it also procs major savagery for me, and it also procs burning light, a class passive, making the damage gap even more ridiculous.

    Another example... I recently made a warden. And I wanted to play him as a sort of ranger with a bear who uses dual wield skills, bow skills, his bear, and maybe a few nature themed abilities. Well as it turns out.. the netch, the creepy laser beam bug jelly thing native to MORROWIND, (my character is nord btw) is not only my main recovery skill, it also provides cleanses, a free heal, and major brutality... I want to drop this skill so bad because I loath the way it looks, but I cant. It's just too good. The weapon skill sources of major brutality just dont compare.

    I'm not even looking at this from a min/max point of view. I have no problem sacrificing SOME performance to enjoy my characters theme. But some skills are just too good, and some too poor.

    To summarize, you need to do a lot better job at looking at your skills in a vacuum, looking at the passives they interact with, and making sure that every skill line has upsides to it that make it at the very least a competitive option to class skills. Also, some class skills are simply bonkers. I love this game and all the skill options we have, please let us actually use them!

    I think the better way to approach your problem would be to figure out what option in the game best suits what it is you are trying to do with your character. In other words: if you want to be a warrior knight who uses two handed weapon skills (Dragon Knight comes to mind) experiment or research to decide what class would be the most effective at it. Perfect balance is never going to happen (nor should it in my opinion) as certain play styles are going to be more effective with certain classes. Otherwise classes would be pointless and all the abilities would essentially be the same just with different animations. In other words: it would end up being a bland combat system with very little variety (see final fantasy 14 for an example).
    Edited by Jeremy on April 8, 2020 6:26PM
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  • regime211
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    Stx wrote: »
    Specifically spammables, and major buffs.

    One thing I love about this game is the character and build customization. Making a combo of sets and skills to tweak a character how you want it. However, in some cases, your skill balance is so poor that it forces us into choices we don't want to take.

    For example... my main is a templar. Originally, I envisioned him as a warrior knight who basically used all weapon skills with some group support skills like ritual, echoing vigor etc. But due to how poorly skills in this game are balanced, I cant use weapon spammables. The amount of damage and buffs I would lose by using 2 handed skills over biting jabs is INSANE. Not only does jabs deal more base damage, it also deals splash damage! It also procs minor protection for me, it also procs major savagery for me, and it also procs burning light, a class passive, making the damage gap even more ridiculous.

    Another example... I recently made a warden. And I wanted to play him as a sort of ranger with a bear who uses dual wield skills, bow skills, his bear, and maybe a few nature themed abilities. Well as it turns out.. the netch, the creepy laser beam bug jelly thing native to MORROWIND, (my character is nord btw) is not only my main recovery skill, it also provides cleanses, a free heal, and major brutality... I want to drop this skill so bad because I loath the way it looks, but I cant. It's just too good. The weapon skill sources of major brutality just dont compare.

    I'm not even looking at this from a min/max point of view. I have no problem sacrificing SOME performance to enjoy my characters theme. But some skills are just too good, and some too poor.

    To summarize, you need to do a lot better job at looking at your skills in a vacuum, looking at the passives they interact with, and making sure that every skill line has upsides to it that make it at the very least a competitive option to class skills. Also, some class skills are simply bonkers. I love this game and all the skill options we have, please let us actually use them!

    Naw
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  • zvavi
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    Stx wrote: »
    zvavi wrote: »
    iCaliban wrote: »
    Sorc steak

    Delicious.

    On a more serious note, warden was introduced during morrowind, therefore has morrowind elements. Don't want netch? Your problem. Heavy attack more.
    Templar is using weapon for jabs, since it is part of the "aedric spear" skill line.

    While I do believe some balance changes to make classes feel more unique, and templar jabs are indeed over preforming, your take on it is subjective and based on how you "feel" like playing, which everyone has a different take on. Therefore, nope.

    How can you agree that jabs are over performing and then call it subjective? It's literally fact....

    My "subjective" was pointed mainly at that
    "Another example... I recently made a warden. And I wanted to play him as a sort of ranger with a bear who uses dual wield skills, bow skills, his bear, and maybe a few nature themed abilities. Well as it turns out.. the netch, the creepy laser beam bug jelly thing native to MORROWIND, (my character is nord btw) is not only my main recovery skill, it also provides cleanses, a free heal, and major brutality... I want to drop this skill so bad because I loath the way it looks, but I cant. It's just too good. The weapon skill sources of major brutality just dont compare."

    And this
    Originally, I envisioned him as a warrior knight who basically used all weapon skills with some group support skills like ritual, echoing vigor etc.

    Netch on the other hand, is not overperforming, it is the major buffs from weapon skill lines are under preforming (especially since in pve u get major buffs from potions, making netch mainly resource buff, and major buffs from weapon skill lines just bad skills.) Other than sorc, all resources skills in classes are "over preforming".
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  • Iskiab
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    You could get by without jabs and use dizzy swing. It’s not like you’re downgrading to poop fist or something.
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
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  • SpLaTTyDaDDy
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    Play how you want. If you do trials/dungeons and the majority of ppl think you stink and kick you. Then so be it. No one breaking your neck to run class abilities or weapon abilities.
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  • Stx
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    You could get by without jabs and use dizzy swing. It’s not like you’re downgrading to poop fist or something.

    If I'm not mistaken, the difference between jabs + burning light and wrecking blow with empower is... massive. I think it's like over 10k dps difference. And then theres the free major savagery and minor protection which matter.
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  • worrallj
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    I agree on warden skills that you don't want cuz they clash with the theme your going for but are just too dang good to give up.

    For me it was an argonian and I was having such a hard time dropping frost fortress. Minor protection + group major resolve? I feel a fool to pass that up. But a tree minder argonian from the swamps is covered in ice because....? The problem is the warden class identity is a little schizophrenic.

    *But* I don't really agree this is a problem with balance generally. People always complain about one class or another being underpowered, but in general I think it's impressive that such an open ended class system is as balanced as it is. Jabs takes the cake for raw damage in your case, but other spammsbles are useable in different circumstances, proc other effects, etc.
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  • Gnortranermara
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    Brace for incoming Jabs nerf. Thanks, Stx.

    Virtually everyone playing this game tends to think that class skills should be a bit superior to generic skills, including weapons. That gives us a reason to choose them over the bland, boring stuff every other toon has equal access to. Otherwise, why even have classes? That's not just a rhetorical question: I've tried it, and even had a "Classless vMA" run with zero class skills or passives. Playing without class skills is kinda fun for a day or two, but then it starts to feel like dry humping a cardboard box. The combat devs have already spent the last few years sucking the fun out of our skills. Don't encourage them any more, please.
    D3N7157 wrote: »
    ooook roleplayer, this is why most of the community dislike you, you refuse to play the game as an mmo and still believe balance and entire game should be designed and balanced around your own rp perspective

    ESO is an MMORPG. Role-Playing is right there in the genre name. Skill design for this game is supposed to take roleplay into account. The RPG element and the MMO element are not contradictory. (At least, they don't have to be.) There's a dev article about balance and power fantasy somewhere on the site. OP is not wrong for wanting roleplay baked into combat; he's just wrong for thinking that there isn't a valid RP reason that class skills perform better. Classes represent a specialty, and weapons are just generic tools anybody can pick up. So there's a valid RP reason for the imbalance (among many other reasons). ZOS shouldn't change that. The gap between class skills and weapon skills is a good thing.

    What OP should really be asking for is buffs to the ability-altering item sets that stand ready-made to fulfill the "Weapon Master" niche he'd like to play.
    Edited by Gnortranermara on April 8, 2020 7:42PM
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  • Stx
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    Brace for incoming Jabs nerf. Thanks, Stx.

    Virtually everyone playing this game tends to think that class skills should be a bit superior to generic skills, including weapons. That gives us a reason to choose them over the bland, boring stuff every other toon has equal access to. Otherwise, why even have classes? That's not just a rhetorical question: I've tried it, and even had a "Classless vMA" run with zero class skills or passives. Playing without class skills is kinda fun for a day or two, but then it starts to feel like dry humping a cardboard box. The combat devs have already spent the last few years sucking the fun out of our skills. Don't encourage them any more, please.

    Fun is subjective. I personally find jabs super boring compared to wrecking blow.

    And honestly I dont want any one class nerfed or buffed lol. All I want is better balance between all the skills so players can choose what they want to use without taking massive performance losses. I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun.
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  • ZOS_FalcoYamaoka
    ​Greetings,
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  • karekiz
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    JABS IS FINE.

    NOBODY IS REROLLING STAMPLAR.

    MOVE ALONG.
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  • Universe
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    We can expect that ZOS will nerf Puncturing Strikes & morphs someday.
    This ability is a bit overperforming.
    It can be even more noticeable in a more challenging content, such as: veteran dungeons/PVP.
    Edited by Universe on April 8, 2020 9:08PM
    Some videos I recorded for fun: Main character:
    PC EU main: Universe - AD magicka Sorcerer, Former Emperor, Grand Overlord, The Merciless, Trial Bosses Solo Champion
    Top alts: Genius(stamina/sagicka Dragonknight) The Force(stamina Nightblade) and other chars.
    PC NA main: The Magic - AD magicka Sorcerer
    Started playing ESO in beta & early access
    User_ID: Daedric_Prince
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  • xXMeowMeowXx
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    Universe wrote: »
    We can expect that ZOS will nerf Puncturing Strikes & morphs someday.
    This ability is a bit overperforming.
    It can be even more noticeable in a more challenging content, such as: veteran dungeons/PVP.

    Templars have been heavily nerfed over the years.

    Puncturing strikes is at a good spot on par with many other class abilities.

    People just notice Templars more because of the Blitzkrieg Style and Flashy animations....that are not experienced in ESO

    With how the OP put things, he seems that he would not use Dark Cloak on a Magblade either. Since it wouldn’t fit his RPing desires.

    Balance changes never should come from an inexperienced player or from an RPing standpoint.
    Edited by xXMeowMeowXx on April 9, 2020 12:01AM
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  • GeorgeBlack
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    iCaliban wrote: »
    Roleplay should not influence balance decisions. Drop the skill if it offends your sensibilities.

    Skills with multiple effects are the keystones of eso combat. Templar jabs gives minor protection, heals or gives major savagery, and is aoe. Sorc steak acts as a mobility tool + aoe stun, dk whip acts a strong self heal and damage skill. Etc etc.

    [snip]

    So if bash weaving becomes the meta, no matter how lame it is, you will be happy as long as it gets the job done.

    So if SnB becomes the meta for mages and Staff becomes the meta for Fighters, as long as it keeps you competitive, it's all good.

    [edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]

    Edited by ZOS_RogerJ on April 9, 2020 4:12PM
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  • GeorgeBlack
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    OP

    This "character and build customization" never worked in any game in which there arent solid classes based on weapon/armor themes.

    It only works on overland. It will never change in eso, unless they equalize all skills to be reskins of each other.

    Give up your hope for Bow DW warden. Bow DW DK.
    Give up your hope for Weapon skills on a templar.

    Abilities in ESO arent a fighting style or a class combination.
    They are boring tools that you drop in a second as soon as a new patch comes.
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