Are we looking at Light Attacks wrong?

llBlack_Heartll

Light Attacks Generally account for roughly (avg) 15% of damage done (80k) (depending Stam or Mag) the other 85% is all skills.
Of course light attacks are going to be 15% because they are cast in between every skill and some times not all skills are attacking skill. Is 15% really too much?

Now taking a look at Xynode parse on his Easy Sorc, Heavy Attacks account for 13% of the damage (77k) almost exactly the same? LA was 6%. Now you are only going to HA on the front bar, so that 13% is in a shorter time frame, then over a full parse with LA weaving.


So is there really a problem here? Easy solution was to just buff HA a little and keep the resources returned, because ppl will still need to LA weave to get resources with the changes.
There are a couple of HA improvements that I like, moment speed being one of them.

Knowledge

15% is a lot

Skjaldbjorn

Knowledge wrote: »

15% is a lot

It is and it isn't. Reducing LA damage by 25-30% would be fine. That would be a significant reduction to bridge the gap while not completely bending over players who LA spam.

TheFM

Knowledge wrote: »

15% is a lot

That is not a lot by any measure of anything.

Dracane

Knowledge wrote: »

15% is a lot

For base attacks/auto attacks, that is not a lot at all. It is reasonable.
No nerfing was needed.

Septimus_Magna

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Light Attacks Generally account for roughly (avg) 15% of damage done (80k) (depending Stam or Mag) the other 85% is all skills.
Of course light attacks are going to be 15% because they are cast in between every skill and some times not all skills are attacking skill. Is 15% really too much?

Now taking a look at Xynode parse on his Easy Sorc, Heavy Attacks account for 13% of the damage (77k) almost exactly the same? LA was 6%. Now you are only going to HA on the front bar, so that 13% is in a shorter time frame, then over a full parse with LA weaving.


So is there really a problem here? Easy solution was to just buff HA a little and keep the resources returned, because ppl will still need to LA weave to get resources with the changes.
There are a couple of HA improvements that I like, moment speed being one of them.

I dont think 15% is too much for LA in normal dps parses but it is a fairly large part of the damage. In comparison, on stam builds Endless Hail with vMA bow is roughly 15% of the total damage.

The Easy Sorc build was created to buff LA/HA and nothing else, Undaunted Infiltrator/Infallible Aether/vMA desto all have roughly the same focus. In that case 13% for HA and 6% for LA is actually pretty low. So its a good thing HA are getting buffed. With the removal of resource return on HA I do think it will be a little harder to sustain for player low CP or less experienced players.

Why not make it more intuitive and cause all normal attacks to restore resources? LA could return something like 50, scale that up with the duration for MA and give the final pop of the HA a little extra resource return.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

15% is a lot

It is and it isn't. Reducing LA damage by 25-30% would be fine. That would be a significant reduction to bridge the gap while not completely bending over players who LA spam.

Exactly, a nerf of no more than 30% would be acceptable.

actosh

u could just leave light attacks as they are and the dmg they do right now, and just add a small cost to it.

Highly optimized teams still put out the same dmg as before and maybe could sustain it with slight changes to the setup.

Heavys u can still leave to do the ressource return and buff their dmg a bit so the ppl that cant keep a rotation in their head or weave still do a bit more dmg.


Was just a thought, still like it the way it is on live right now.

But in my small opinion keeping dmg for a small cost (since u use them a lot and you should do them) is way better then cripple la dmg and add more sustain wich isnt rly needed.

Still after all dont think there is a need to change it after all.

JinMori

Forget it, just buff heavy and give sustain to both, or none, and increase the baseline sustain.

End of story, please don't *** it up like you always do zos.

kylewwefan

What if sustain wasn’t tied to attacks in the first place.

What if there had to be a thoughtful decision made between food and jewelry enchantments, possibly gear and load outs.

How it is now, you can go full weapon damage, low recovery, BiS race, NEVER heavy attack, and be fine. TF difference is this gonna make?

What if you had to make one jewelry harmony to help sustain? Or infused with a recovery glyph. Maybe 7 light armor because the recovery was more needed than undaunted extra resource passives.

Gilliam had a video way back long time ago showing how full weapon damage enchantments was more efficient than anything else. What if it weren’t. If sustain had to be factored in to your build, not necessarily your play style.

katorga

Objectively, neither LA or HA should do competitive damage with a resource costing ability nor provide direct sustain.

LA should be filler, while you recover resources through regen or other methods.

HA should do slightly more damage, but primarily be a reactive attack to trigger a condition: stun after block, stagger, etc.

I can understand where ZOS went with these attacks returning resource....they overnerfed sustain a couple of years ago and are using LA/HA to increase your normal regen rate while using them. So it does make sense that LA and spamming LA effectively boosts your regen by 200ish per second. It is easier to bolt sustain onto LA/HA than to re-tune sets, glyphs and passives.

At the end of the day, this will probably make my sustain very high and allow me to either drop a sustain race or set.

Skjaldbjorn

katorga wrote: »

Objectively, neither LA or HA should do competitive damage with a resource costing ability nor provide direct sustain.

LA should be filler, while you recover resources through regen or other methods.

HA should do slightly more damage, but primarily be a reactive attack to trigger a condition: stun after block, stagger, etc.

I can understand where ZOS went with these attacks returning resource....they overnerfed sustain a couple of years ago and are using LA/HA to increase your normal regen rate while using them. So it does make sense that LA and spamming LA effectively boosts your regen by 200ish per second. It is easier to bolt sustain onto LA/HA than to re-tune sets, glyphs and passives.

At the end of the day, this will probably make my sustain very high and allow me to either drop a sustain race or set.

Which creates the problem no one wants to talk about it seems - a dev enforced Orc/High Elf meta. Playing anything else at all in PVE would have you laughed out of the room. Race diversity, what little remains, is buried with these changes.

JinMori

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Objectively, neither LA or HA should do competitive damage with a resource costing ability nor provide direct sustain.

LA should be filler, while you recover resources through regen or other methods.

HA should do slightly more damage, but primarily be a reactive attack to trigger a condition: stun after block, stagger, etc.

I can understand where ZOS went with these attacks returning resource....they overnerfed sustain a couple of years ago and are using LA/HA to increase your normal regen rate while using them. So it does make sense that LA and spamming LA effectively boosts your regen by 200ish per second. It is easier to bolt sustain onto LA/HA than to re-tune sets, glyphs and passives.

At the end of the day, this will probably make my sustain very high and allow me to either drop a sustain race or set.

Which creates the problem no one wants to talk about it seems - a dev enforced Orc/High Elf meta. Playing anything else at all in PVE would have you laughed out of the room. Race diversity, what little remains, is buried with these changes.

In my opinion they should just change how the passives are acquired, it will not be necessarily lore friendly, but it's better than what we have at the moment where if they buff sustain, sustain races become useless, and if they nerf it, sustain becomes required.

The idea is to let us choose our passives as long as they "make sense" for the race.

By make sense i mean, orc should not get elemental talent, or high elf should not get swift warrior, basically, stamina races, have stam passives shared, and magicka races have magicka passives shared.

For the hybrid races, i guess they have to pick and choose which passives make sense for each race, but don't be too restrictive, otherwise we will always run into this problem of, i wanna play this race, but this other one is so much stronger.

Or, just scrap passives entirely make them way less stronger and give the stats back through other means. For magicka, stam and health it's easy, just make it so each level grants you more of those resources than before, for weapon spell damage, crit etc, it's a bit more tricky, and i don't know exactly what they could do.

SHANKS_63

How about make race passives a skill line with limitations in appropriate categories (weap/spell dmg, regen, etc.,.) to avoid the obvious. Maybe we could make them morphs. Then we would be permitted to play a Breton or High Elf stam build or Orc mag build (for example) and when race passives or other game altering designs change, we can just go modify the "passives" skill tree at the respec station instead of being hobbled by race. I always wished race was chosen for aesthetics, not the current META passives.

Jeremy

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Light Attacks Generally account for roughly (avg) 15% of damage done (80k) (depending Stam or Mag) the other 85% is all skills.
Of course light attacks are going to be 15% because they are cast in between every skill and some times not all skills are attacking skill. Is 15% really too much?

Now taking a look at Xynode parse on his Easy Sorc, Heavy Attacks account for 13% of the damage (77k) almost exactly the same? LA was 6%. Now you are only going to HA on the front bar, so that 13% is in a shorter time frame, then over a full parse with LA weaving.


So is there really a problem here? Easy solution was to just buff HA a little and keep the resources returned, because ppl will still need to LA weave to get resources with the changes.
There are a couple of HA improvements that I like, moment speed being one of them.

I doubt the real intent of these changes was to close the "skill gap" between players who weave light attacks and those who don't. So that's probably why they didn't opt to take your advice and implement an easier and more effective solution. I believe the true goal here was to remove the resource gain from heavy attacks so players could not recover their resources as fast. In other words: what they wanted was to remove the spike in resource gain and make it more steady and decided to accomplish that through light attack weaving.

Skjaldbjorn

Jeremy wrote: »

I doubt the real intent of these changes was to close the "skill gap" between players who weave light attacks and those who don't. So that's probably why they didn't opt to take your advice and implement an easier and more effective solution. I believe the true goal here was to remove the resource gain from heavy attacks so players could not recover their resources as fast. In other words: what they wanted was to remove the spike in resource gain and make it more steady and decided to accomplish that through light attack weaving.

@Jeremy What players are these that they're targeting? Because most non-supports I know sustain through good LA weaving. They don't need to heavy, like...ever. Unless something goes real wrong (death), supports are garbo or I'm just lagging/having a bad day, I almost never HA in an actual trial environment.

Jeremy

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I doubt the real intent of these changes was to close the "skill gap" between players who weave light attacks and those who don't. So that's probably why they didn't opt to take your advice and implement an easier and more effective solution. I believe the true goal here was to remove the resource gain from heavy attacks so players could not recover their resources as fast. In other words: what they wanted was to remove the spike in resource gain and make it more steady and decided to accomplish that through light attack weaving.

@Jeremy What players are these that they're targeting? Because most non-supports I know sustain through good LA weaving. They don't need to heavy, like...ever. Unless something goes real wrong (death), supports are garbo or I'm just lagging/having a bad day, I almost never HA in an actual trial environment.

Key word being "non-supports".

And that's basically what I'm saying to you. I don't believe these changes actually had anything to do with closing some "skill gap" between low or high APM players. Because as you just said - high "APM" DPS players in a trial environment didn't use heavy attacks to recover their resources anyway. So why change it?

So I believe this change was meant to even out sustain across the board and take away the ability of players to quickly recover their resources. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Because this "close the skill gap" argument makes no sense when compared to these changes.

Skjaldbjorn

Jeremy wrote: »

Key word being "non-supports".

And that's basically what I'm saying to you. I don't believe these changes actually had anything to do with closing some "skill gap" between low or high APM players. Because as you just said - high "APM" DPS players in a trial environment didn't use heavy attacks to recover their resources anyway. So why change it?

So I believe this change was meant to even out sustain across the board and take away the ability of players to quickly recover their resources. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Because this "close the skill gap" argument makes no sense when compared to these changes.

That still doesn't really make sense. I tank a ton. Most high-end end-game tanks I know LA weave between most of their abilities and only rarely heavy. The LA weaving will manage their sustain, and most tanks run Atro mundus and mag regen glyphs to sustain resources.

Unless this change is blanket-healer targeted, I have no earthly idea who this is targeted at, unless it's PVP-focused.

Jeremy

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Key word being "non-supports".

And that's basically what I'm saying to you. I don't believe these changes actually had anything to do with closing some "skill gap" between low or high APM players. Because as you just said - high "APM" DPS players in a trial environment didn't use heavy attacks to recover their resources anyway. So why change it?

So I believe this change was meant to even out sustain across the board and take away the ability of players to quickly recover their resources. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Because this "close the skill gap" argument makes no sense when compared to these changes.

That still doesn't really make sense. I tank a ton. Most high-end end-game tanks I know LA weave between most of their abilities and only rarely heavy. The LA weaving will manage their sustain, and most tanks run Atro mundus and mag regen glyphs to sustain resources.

Unless this change is blanket-healer targeted, I have no earthly idea who this is targeted at, unless it's PVP-focused.

Oh it's clear to me who it's targeted at. It's targeted at players who used heavy attacks to gain their resources back. That's fairly obvious to me. So be glad you aren't one of those.

What's also clear to me is this change had absolutely nothing to do with closing the skill gap between players who light attack weave and those who don't.

katorga

SHANKS_63 wrote: »

How about make race passives a skill line with limitations in appropriate categories (weap/spell dmg, regen, etc.,.) to avoid the obvious. Maybe we could make them morphs. Then we would be permitted to play a Breton or High Elf stam build or Orc mag build (for example) and when race passives or other game altering designs change, we can just go modify the "passives" skill tree at the respec station instead of being hobbled by race. I always wished race was chosen for aesthetics, not the current META passives.

You have to replace the passives somewhere, and the suggestions above to make the morphs is a good idea. Either way,

JinMori wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Objectively, neither LA or HA should do competitive damage with a resource costing ability nor provide direct sustain.

LA should be filler, while you recover resources through regen or other methods.

HA should do slightly more damage, but primarily be a reactive attack to trigger a condition: stun after block, stagger, etc.

I can understand where ZOS went with these attacks returning resource....they overnerfed sustain a couple of years ago and are using LA/HA to increase your normal regen rate while using them. So it does make sense that LA and spamming LA effectively boosts your regen by 200ish per second. It is easier to bolt sustain onto LA/HA than to re-tune sets, glyphs and passives.

At the end of the day, this will probably make my sustain very high and allow me to either drop a sustain race or set.

Which creates the problem no one wants to talk about it seems - a dev enforced Orc/High Elf meta. Playing anything else at all in PVE would have you laughed out of the room. Race diversity, what little remains, is buried with these changes.

In my opinion they should just change how the passives are acquired, it will not be necessarily lore friendly, but it's better than what we have at the moment where if they buff sustain, sustain races become useless, and if they nerf it, sustain becomes required.

The idea is to let us choose our passives as long as they "make sense" for the race.

By make sense i mean, orc should not get elemental talent, or high elf should not get swift warrior, basically, stamina races, have stam passives shared, and magicka races have magicka passives shared.

For the hybrid races, i guess they have to pick and choose which passives make sense for each race, but don't be too restrictive, otherwise we will always run into this problem of, i wanna play this race, but this other one is so much stronger.

Or, just scrap passives entirely make them way less stronger and give the stats back through other means. For magicka, stam and health it's easy, just make it so each level grants you more of those resources than before, for weapon spell damage, crit etc, it's a bit more tricky, and i don't know exactly what they could do.

There is a huge $$$ benefit to constantly shifting the meta races. Sells race change tokens. The developer is highly motivated to create imbalances and frequent meta shifts in a cash store game.