Abysmal Decline in Skill Line Development

Gnortranermara

Back to continue this discussion, but I'll put my kid gloves on.

When Chapters were introduced, they were billed as uber-DLC with new features that warranted a purchase separate from ESO Plus. And at first ZOS delivered. In Morrowind, the game’s first new class and battlegrounds were both innovative new additions. And in Summerset, we got a creative new guild skill line and the long-awaited Jewelry Crafting. Plus a few ability-altering weapons and other various goodies here and there in the regular DLC’s. Cool. So far so good.

Then Elsweyr dropped, and sometime around then ZOS standards dropped with it – specifically in the area of skill line development. Necromancer was meh, buggy, and has frankly ridiculous pet behavior. We got no guild line for existing characters, even though an amazing 6-passive Dragonguard guild line (like DB/TG…) could’ve been slapped together with very minimal effort* and delivered at the end of the year with Dragonhold. There’s nothing difficult about it at all; it would just require a tiny spark of [heart, soul, direction, creativity] from whoever is deciding the roadmap for skill development. This glaring omission is exacerbated by deep flaws in the content: virtually impossible achievements like Godslayer (especially on console) that could’ve been attainable with some modest dragonslaying boosts from a Dragonguard line. Done right, it would’ve given compelling in-game purpose to the whole cat/dragon charity gimmick. But there was no heart, no soul, no direction, and no creativity steering the ship for skill line development. There is nothing worse for fans than the missed opportunities when devs could do something awesome, obvious, and beneficial to the health of the game (absolutely unattainable achievements are unhealthy, if any devs are wondering), but deliver a half-hearted, half-finished, incomplete product instead. The Year of the Dragon remains an incomplete, half-told story without a Dragonguard guild passive line to complement and counteract the difficulty of the content.

*Too easy

Field Dressing - Double all alchemy reagent drops from dragons.
Flightless Hunter - Eliminates your Sprint cost when out of combat.
Honed Pursuit - Aggression radius from hostile monsters is decreased by 50% on foot.
Dragonslayer (4 ranks) - Deal 5/10/15/20% more damage to dragons under 25% health.
Guardian (4 ranks) - Take 5/10/15/20% less damage from dragons.
Emboldened Predator - After killing a dragon, gain Major Berserk for 1 minute.

And now it looks like it’s happening again in Greymoor. Antiquities/scrying/excavating is a fine addition. Count me among those who don’t want gear locked behind an excessively grindy, potentially obnoxious mobile phone minigame, but whatever. Maybe some lore fans will dig it. But in the area of combat skill development, the ball is being dropped hard. A Vampire rework is not a terrible direction, but the execution is little more than 3 skills and a low-budget polymorph. (No, I’m not referring to the obvious placeholder character art models seen in the previews. I have no doubt the final graphics will be amazing, because the art team is amazing.) “Low-budget polymorph” is a jab at the limited functionality of the transformation: it changes your character’s physical appearance, but not your skill bar. Unlike Werewolf and TESV Vampire Lord, you continue using your normal skills. So essentially the combat team copy/pasted Goliath, added a few skills to the Vampire line, and tweaked some passives. Maybe the revamp would be enough if Blood Scion got its own unique skill bars, but 3 skills and a polymorph falls very short of the combat skill development subscribers expect to be delivered in a paid Chapter.

So what more is coming? Crickets. Maybe ZOS is sitting on a big surprise (Dawnguard, Vigilants of Stendarr, Spellcrafting, Spellsword, Sun Damage, Alteration Staff, total Frost rework, something, anything, to justify the shameless inadequacy of skillless Blood Scion polymorphs), but history gives plenty of reason to doubt it.

Of course, the predictable excuse will be performance improvements. That may be a valid excuse for an understaffed team in way over their heads, but it’s not an excuse for ZOS as a company. Greymoor is a paid Chapter, and performance improvements are a base game update. Hire more talent to do both. More than any other element of "combat", skill line development needs its own creative genius calling the shots and an adequately staffed, competent team implementing those directions and contributing improvements. Some part of that equation is missing, and it shows.

Microsoft has refused to cancel my Greymoor preorder, but I regret buying this game in its current state. Performance is in the trash can and the most generous interpretation is that ZOS management assigned people with tasks that were beyond their capabilities, or stretched them too thin. So ZOS should take the money and hire an extra dev (or three). Stop pinching pennies and spend the money.

Don’t let the Dark Heart of Skyrim be as incomplete, underwhelming, and disappointing as the Year of the Dragon.

Noxavian

I can agree immensely. Personally, I feel like whoever designed Necromancer needs to take a look at their own game. The irony is that Necros didn't get a single NPC ability normie necromancer mobs have had in the game since launch. Which is pathetic. The fact that they literally said they didn't want a mage that specializes in raising the dead to....specialize in raising the dead, is very concerning.

But that's then, let's talk about now. I like the new vampire changes, however I think the fact that the Blood Scion ult is just a bone Goliath re-skin is absolutely horrible. At the VERY LEAST give us a new heavy/light attack. I don't want my big vampiric boi wielding a tiny stick while he's in this epic form. Especially since the NPCs that can turn into a Blood Scion (it was shown in one of the preview videos) don't carry their weapons over into the form. It is beyond dumb for this vampiric creature with access to claws the size of daggers and magic that drains life, summons night creatures, etc. is forced to use a staff/sword/shield. I really hope they just copy/paste the skill on the NPCs, I genuinely do NOT want to see my Blood Scion wielding a weapon. Even more so if NPCs don't have to.

In a perfect world we'd get a new vampire-themed ability bar while in Blood Scion form, but I would be willing to make due with a new heavy/light attack that wouldn't show you wielding your weapon. At least it'd show that they didn't just copy bone goliath.

Everest_Lionheart

I take it you have been around a while in ESO. I’ve been there before in so many games where add ins and changes become the norm and the game becomes more of a chore to play because it either feels uninspired, unnecessary, cash grabby or game breaking. Admittedly I’m still playing one of those games on a mobile platform 4 years later trying to find a way out and I just can’t. Even massive p2w mechanics the whole way still hasn’t driven me off, but I digress.

I’m actually new to ESO and as a new player there is a ton to learn, so much it’s a little overwhelming at first. Further complicating matters for me it’s my first real MMORPG to boot so that’s a whole other ballgame to learn.

So I read literally a ton of guides and watched hours of video before even purchasing the game, and countless hours since. When I’m not playing I am reading a guide or these forums to learn and understand more. In fact I’m taking a break now after 2 hours researching CP because my first char hit lv50 today and it’s another mechanic to learn in order to optimize my character.

Having experienced both ends of the spectrum now I understand where the veteran players are coming from and the issues they have with the game. Us beginners have our own obstacles too. ZOS seems to be trying to find that balance to appeal to the veteran and noobie alike. Is it possibly a bit contrived? Aren’t things always contrived with all developers in all games anyway? The developers still have to answer further up the food chain also, give them a choice and you would probably have smoother mechanics and better features but they are forced inside a box to create a game that strays from their initial mission.

Still they are still pumping out content and tweaking their game for better or for worse. I’ve seen plenty of studios just give up and other get bought out and put into a monetization model. Been there, done that. Actually worked for one of the competitors for a while. Customer service, support and also managing that games forums and sub forums. A thankless job but a job no less, with a nasty non disclosure agreement that I was still under for a year after they canned everyone on the dev side. I followed them out the door because the devs were the only good thing about that particular game, but I digress again.

From what I see of the team here they seem to care enough and for a new player there is more content than my mind can process. Will I be here for a year or more? It’s likely and eventually I’ll probably have the same ups and downs over decisions that many vet players are expressing today, but as with other games I’ll adapt and overcome until I become bored and move on. For now though I’m happy with my purchase.

Thevampirenight

Here is the thing, Greymoor is introducing two new skill lines. Given from a new in game antiquities guild that is an npc guild.
They are revamping and overhauling the vampire but they are also revamping the Werewolf as I discovered but we don't know the full details on that but its clear the are doing it.
So the new skill lines.
Scrying
Excavation
Revamped Skill Lines
Vampire
Werewolf

Vampires and Werewolves are going to be a heavy theme of the new chapter. So they have been working on them as well.
So we will likely see a new werewolf experience alongside the new vampire experience. So just because they didn't invest in a new combat skill line doesn't mean anything as Werewolves and Vampires are receiving much needed attention.

Gnortranermara

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vampires and Werewolves are going to be a heavy theme of the new chapter. So they have been working on them as well.
So we will likely see a new werewolf experience alongside the new vampire experience. So Just because they didn't invest in a new combat skill line doesn't mean anything as Werewolves and Vampires are receiving much needed attention.

That would be enough for a paid Chapter if the uninfected were getting the same attention through a Dawnguard or similar uninfected guild line, but with no such thing in sight this year looks uninspired, and uninspiring. History (Dragonguard) gives us no reason to expect such a development, so for now it looks like Dark Heart is following the same underwhelming trajectory. I'd love to be proven wrong.

Noxavian

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vampires and Werewolves are going to be a heavy theme of the new chapter. So they have been working on them as well.
So we will likely see a new werewolf experience alongside the new vampire experience. So Just because they didn't invest in a new combat skill line doesn't mean anything as Werewolves and Vampires are receiving much needed attention.

That would be enough for a paid Chapter if the uninfected were getting the same attention through a Dawnguard or similar uninfected guild line, but with no such thing in sight this year looks uninspired, and uninspiring. History (Dragonguard) gives us no reason to expect such a development, so for now it looks like Dark Heart is following the same underwhelming trajectory. I'd love to be proven wrong.

This game desperately needs a mortals-only skill line.

Doesn't have to be Dawnguard, but something like it would be really nice. It'd feature sun magic and crossbows, plus some armor sets that help when fighting vampries/werewolves.

Vevvev

Noxavian wrote: »

This game desperately needs a mortals-only skill line.

Doesn't have to be Dawnguard, but something like it would be really nice. It'd feature sun magic and crossbows, plus some armor sets that help when fighting vampries/werewolves.

This!

I know there are some people who are already developing strategies and things to deal with the new vampire rework and they feel like what they saw in the WIP reveal is going to be too overpowered. Especially that one skill that gives that whopping 900+ weapon/spell damage. Of course we've never gotten our hands on it yet in the PTS so its all theory crafting right now.

If they added sets or a skill line to help deal with werewolves and vampires that would be cool and make an interesting balance between the three (mortal, vampire, werewolf).

Thevampirenight

Noxavian wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vampires and Werewolves are going to be a heavy theme of the new chapter. So they have been working on them as well.
So we will likely see a new werewolf experience alongside the new vampire experience. So Just because they didn't invest in a new combat skill line doesn't mean anything as Werewolves and Vampires are receiving much needed attention.

That would be enough for a paid Chapter if the uninfected were getting the same attention through a Dawnguard or similar uninfected guild line, but with no such thing in sight this year looks uninspired, and uninspiring. History (Dragonguard) gives us no reason to expect such a development, so for now it looks like Dark Heart is following the same underwhelming trajectory. I'd love to be proven wrong.

This game desperately needs a mortals-only skill line.

Doesn't have to be Dawnguard, but something like it would be really nice. It'd feature sun magic and crossbows, plus some armor sets that help when fighting vampries/werewolves.

Thing is the player isn't a mortal. Why would a non mortal benefit from a mortals only skill line?
The Vestige is an immortal being, something a lot like the bee from Secret World Legends that comes back from the dead each time its slain,
The vestige for all intents and purposes is immortal. A daedric vestige with anuic qualities that allows it to return from the grave and reform anywhere near its location that would allow for it.

Vevvev

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Thing is the player isn't a mortal. Why would a non mortal benefit from a mortals only skill line?
The Vestige is an immortal being, something a lot like the bee from Secret World Legends that comes back from the dead each time its slain,
The vestige for all intents and purposes is immortal. A daedric vestige with anuic qualities that allows it to return from the grave and reform anywhere near its location that would allow for it.

You know exactly what he means.

Stop nitpicking this kind of stuff when we all pretend we're normal in a RP anyway, or we're the hero and the other players are the supporting characters. As far as we know the vestige after getting their soul back will die of old age. ((Or maybe they will die of old age anyways without the soul.)).

No use arguing over this.

Gnortranermara

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Thing is the player isn't a mortal. Why would a non mortal benefit from a mortals only skill line?

The suggestion I made is a guild for the uninfected, mortal or not. IDK why you think you can decide the membership criteria for an in-game guild. ::shrug::

[snip]
[edited to remove bait]

Thevampirenight

Vevvev wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Thing is the player isn't a mortal. Why would a non mortal benefit from a mortals only skill line?
The Vestige is an immortal being, something a lot like the bee from Secret World Legends that comes back from the dead each time its slain,
The vestige for all intents and purposes is immortal. A daedric vestige with anuic qualities that allows it to return from the grave and reform anywhere near its location that would allow for it.

You know exactly what he means.

Stop nitpicking this kind of stuff when we all pretend we're normal in a RP anyway, or we're the hero and the other players are the supporting characters. As far as we know the vestige after getting their soul back will die of old age. ((Or maybe they will die of old age anyways without the soul.)).

No use arguing over this.

Thing is they could make an anti vampire skill line like the Dawnguard give it the benefits like recovery that was taken away from the vampire and make vampires unable to access it.
The thing is Zenimax would have to make a choice to do that or not.
They instead choose to add those elements to the Fighters Guild but made it accessible for everyone and I doubt they would take it away.
I mean being mortal means being mortal having no special boons they are not supernatural. Sure they could give boons for staying clean. Isn't the point of being mortal to live out your life and not getting rewarded just for being alive but instead your deeds and actions?

Also the lore disputes the vestige is mortal he/she is not.
Lore Daedra are immortal they can die but reform. Aedra are mortal they still keep their immortality like a vampire in a way however death means death.
That was the price they payed to make the mundus if someone slays an aedra that aedra would likely stay dead.

The vestige say he/she retires and then ages normally till the day he/she dies on a death bed what happens? They likely reform to the very age they started when being turned into a soul shriven so a hero died at the age of 109 they became a vestige at 20 years old they reform as a 20 year old even if a vestige still is able to age they cannot die they will always come back. The very nature of the soul shriven is they suffer a fate worse then death as they reform and come back only for the torment to continue. That makes them more Daedric then mortal and that is the true curse of the vestige. They likely will never ever reach and receive a peaceful afterlife in Aetherius as they are condemned to always come back after expiring.

Sylvermynx

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Thing is the player isn't a mortal. Why would a non mortal benefit from a mortals only skill line?

The suggestion I made is a guild for the uninfected, mortal or not. IDK why you think you can decide the membership criteria for an in-game guild. ::shrug::

[snip] [edited to remove bait]

[snip]

My characters are mortal. I don't care what the (long past now) MQ says. Once I've done the MQ to completion on my mains, I'm not paying lip service to something that was canon 6 years back on my alts.

I have never had any use for weres and vamps in any game, which includes this one. In fact, I've never had any use for them in TES as a whole. I have no idea why they were ever a thing (well, probably because the creator was fixated on them, and I'm not going to go any farther than that).

My enjoyment of games is predicated on being able to do what I want to do (questing, without being required to do "end game" crap that's 1: impossible on my satellite connection; and 2: absolutely nothing I want to spend time on in any case) - so if I enjoy a game that fits my very narrow parameters, I'm perfectly happy to pay for it. Forever. Or for as long as "forever" exists in MMOs...

So yeah. Time for some love for mortals. I hope ZOS hears us. But of course, having had so much interaction with game devs beginning with BG1, I am NOT holding my breath.

[edited to remove unconstructive response to removed content]

phaneub17_ESO

I think with every major change they make to the game it sets back their design of the Champion Point system, assuming they're actually revamping it. I do miss the extra 30 point increment spending.

Thevampirenight

Sylvermynx wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Thing is the player isn't a mortal. Why would a non mortal benefit from a mortals only skill line?

The suggestion I made is a guild for the uninfected, mortal or not. IDK why you think you can decide the membership criteria for an in-game guild. ::shrug::

Useless tangent is useless, and tangential.

Yeah, well, that's what that poster does - expand on the "I need to be Harkon" garbage, while dissing everyone who's not into weres or vamps....

My characters are mortal. I don't care what the (long past now) MQ says. Once I've done the MQ to completion on my mains, I'm not paying lip service to something that was canon 6 years back on my alts.

I have never had any use for weres and vamps in any game, which includes this one. In fact, I've never had any use for them in TES as a whole. I have no idea why they were ever a thing (well, probably because the creator was fixated on them, and I'm not going to go any farther than that).

My enjoyment of games is predicated on being able to do what I want to do (questing, without being required to do "end game" crap that's 1: impossible on my satellite connection; and 2: absolutely nothing I want to spend time on in any case) - so if I enjoy a game that fits my very narrow parameters, I'm perfectly happy to pay for it. Forever. Or for as long as "forever" exists in MMOs...

So yeah. Time for some love for mortals. I hope ZOS hears us. But of course, having had so much interaction with game devs beginning with BG1, I am NOT holding my breath.

Mortals don't need any special boon, maybe a guild that grants a unique mechanic so long as your not a vampire. However the thing is its very likely given their business model they don't want to leave out any type of player.
There is many that play characters that have neither condition that is fine I've got characters that are vampires, werewolves and even a couple of uninfected.
The thing is that one can go be a vampire or werewolf hunter in this game, yep they can go seek out mobs of them and slay them if one wanted too do so.
Anyone can do this and even player guilds can be formed around it as well. So the Player base could get creative and make their own Dawnguard/Holy Group mortals only guild. Game has that type of freedom so why not do that until the time Zenimax gives the vampire hunter/werewolf hunter players a guild dedicated towards this.

idk

Did Zos actually say there would be a new skill line with every chapter or is OP making a huge assumption here? If the former then please link it.

Just because the chapter is supposed to come with more than a DLC does not mean a new skill line IMO. Granted, we can read a lot into pretty much anything. It just seems like a lot to keep skill lines decent if they added new ones every year. I prefer quality over crap but that is a different discussion.

Gnortranermara

.

idk wrote: »

Did Zos actually say there would be a new skill line with every chapter or is OP making a huge assumption here?

No. Neither. They haven't said it (obviously, they're not going to create a legal obligations for themselves). Nor am I "assuming" it. I'm observing a decline in standards and quality of the products being delivered. We're getting less quality and effort in the area of skill additions in each Chapter. Nothing was "assumed".

Vevvev

idk wrote: »

Did Zos actually say there would be a new skill line with every chapter or is OP making a huge assumption here? If the former then please link it.

Just because the chapter is supposed to come with more than a DLC does not mean a new skill line IMO. Granted, we can read a lot into pretty much anything. It just seems like a lot to keep skill lines decent if they added new ones every year. I prefer quality over crap but that is a different discussion.

I have no idea but there are 2 new skill lines but they are with the antiquities system, and by the looks of it, they are all passives.

Thevampirenight

Yeah the chapter model does seem to include some type of class, new system or skill line.
They went with a new system this time around that has two unique skill lines for the system.
So antiquities is the new system that will be the main feature of the chapter like Jewelry crafting was with Summerset. Its also part of a new in lore guild and this Antiquities guild will introduce the new system to us.

Nemesis7884

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Here is the thing, Greymoor is introducing two new skill lines. Given from a new in game antiquities guild that is an npc guild.
They are revamping and overhauling the vampire but they are also revamping the Werewolf as I discovered but we don't know the full details on that but its clear the are doing it.
So the new skill lines.
Scrying
Excavation
Revamped Skill Lines
Vampire
Werewolf

Vampires and Werewolves are going to be a heavy theme of the new chapter. So they have been working on them as well.
So we will likely see a new werewolf experience alongside the new vampire experience. So just because they didn't invest in a new combat skill line doesn't mean anything as Werewolves and Vampires are receiving much needed attention.

antiquities is the most boring uninspired grindy mobile nonsense i have seen in a "AAA" game in a loooooooooong time...probably only rivaling the gambling casino mechanics in style and quality from the 2k NBA game

xXMeowMeowXx

Noxavian wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vampires and Werewolves are going to be a heavy theme of the new chapter. So they have been working on them as well.
So we will likely see a new werewolf experience alongside the new vampire experience. So Just because they didn't invest in a new combat skill line doesn't mean anything as Werewolves and Vampires are receiving much needed attention.

That would be enough for a paid Chapter if the uninfected were getting the same attention through a Dawnguard or similar uninfected guild line, but with no such thing in sight this year looks uninspired, and uninspiring. History (Dragonguard) gives us no reason to expect such a development, so for now it looks like Dark Heart is following the same underwhelming trajectory. I'd love to be proven wrong.

This game desperately needs a mortals-only skill line.

Doesn't have to be Dawnguard, but something like it would be really nice. It'd feature sun magic and crossbows, plus some armor sets that help when fighting vampries/werewolves.

Quote “This game desperately needs a mortals-only skill line.”

This would be horrible idea, even messing endgame Pve and PvP up more.

Combat mechanics should not be changed for RPing.

Lots of people in PvP and endgame PvE are getting things taken away every update and given bugs and dumbed down combat. The ‘dot change’ was a prime example of the combat devs killing skill in PvP for that period.

Also, the fighters guild skill line is based off of the Dawnguard loosely and some Templars skills....such as Vampire's Bane. ZOS’ also changed the ‘Turn Undead’ skill.

Silver Bolts

Fire a Dawnguard Vampire Hunter's crossbow bolt to strike the enemy for 739 Physical Damage

But a morph of this was used in PvP for a nice combo.

As you can see it was already biased with how It was worded, missing anti WW skills written in.

ESO also has multiple Weapon Skill lines....If ZOS made these skill lines unable to be used by players that have WW or Vampire added into their builds, it would be highly unbalanced.

In the the end it would punish min maxers and PvPers for knowing the game. Which ZOS has done enough.

There are already particular skills, certain enchants, and pots that affect Vamps’ and WWs’ already.

You can easily create an anti vampire build with those. WWs on the other hand are only at a disadvantage when in WW form.

TLTR

Combat mechanics should not be changed for RPing.

Noxavian

xXMeowMeowXx wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Vampires and Werewolves are going to be a heavy theme of the new chapter. So they have been working on them as well.
So we will likely see a new werewolf experience alongside the new vampire experience. So Just because they didn't invest in a new combat skill line doesn't mean anything as Werewolves and Vampires are receiving much needed attention.

That would be enough for a paid Chapter if the uninfected were getting the same attention through a Dawnguard or similar uninfected guild line, but with no such thing in sight this year looks uninspired, and uninspiring. History (Dragonguard) gives us no reason to expect such a development, so for now it looks like Dark Heart is following the same underwhelming trajectory. I'd love to be proven wrong.

This game desperately needs a mortals-only skill line.

Doesn't have to be Dawnguard, but something like it would be really nice. It'd feature sun magic and crossbows, plus some armor sets that help when fighting vampries/werewolves.

Quote “This game desperately needs a mortals-only skill line.”

This would be horrible idea, even messing endgame Pve and PvP up more.

Combat mechanics should not be changed for RPing.

Lots of people in PvP and endgame PvE are getting things taken away every update and given bugs and dumbed down combat. The ‘dot change’ was a prime example of the combat devs killing skill in PvP for that period.

Also, the fighters guild skill line is based off of the Dawnguard loosely and some Templars skills....such as Vampire's Bane. ZOS’ also changed the ‘Turn Undead’ skill.

Silver Bolts

Fire a Dawnguard Vampire Hunter's crossbow bolt to strike the enemy for 739 Physical Damage

But a morph of this was used in PvP for a nice combo.

As you can see it was already biased with how It was worded, missing anti WW skills written in.

ESO also has multiple Weapon Skill lines....If ZOS made these skill lines unable to be used by players that have WW or Vampire added into their builds, it would be highly unbalanced.

In the the end it would punish min maxers and PvPers for knowing the game. Which ZOS has done enough.

There are already particular skills, certain enchants, and pots that affect Vamps’ and WWs’ already.

You can easily create an anti vampire build with those. WWs on the other hand are only at a disadvantage when in WW form.

TLTR

Combat mechanics should not be changed for RPing.

Do explain to me how having a mortal skill line would change your precious combat mechanics. It would only add in new ones, more options.

Also you seemed to of missed the part of my post where I said "or lock off the fighter's guild"/ rework it with the addition of this new group.

Combat mechanics shouldnt be changed for RPing? Again, what would be changing? You mean, making mortals have an option of their own? I fail to see how that does anything but add new options.

idk

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

.

idk wrote: »

Did Zos actually say there would be a new skill line with every chapter or is OP making a huge assumption here?

No. Neither. They haven't said it (obviously, they're not going to create a legal obligations for themselves). Nor am I "assuming" it. I'm observing a decline in standards and quality of the products being delivered. We're getting less quality and effort in the area of skill additions in each Chapter. Nothing was "assumed".

So you are reading into things the way you are talking about the skill lines. The chapter having added value is not specific to a skill line. You are reading into it by specifically wanting an actual skill line one way or another. Ofc, we are getting the antiquities system, as has been pointed out. I do not know if that is part of the base game or if it will require owning/having access to the new chapter. Either way, it is added value.

Further, if you do not think you are getting the value for what Zos is selling it for, then do not buy it. I strongly encourage anyone who feels the chapter lacks value can refuse to purchase the chapter. That is the vote Zos listens to before any of these threads talking on subjects like these. Any business hears that loud and clear.

BTW, the only people who need to buy the chapter are serious raiders. They will be wanting to get early clears and not have their team leave them behind. The rest can wait until it is on sale of becomes part of ESO+.

Noxavian

idk wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

.

idk wrote: »

Did Zos actually say there would be a new skill line with every chapter or is OP making a huge assumption here?

No. Neither. They haven't said it (obviously, they're not going to create a legal obligations for themselves). Nor am I "assuming" it. I'm observing a decline in standards and quality of the products being delivered. We're getting less quality and effort in the area of skill additions in each Chapter. Nothing was "assumed".

So you are reading into things the way you are talking about the skill lines. The chapter having added value is not specific to a skill line. You are reading into it by specifically wanting an actual skill line one way or another. Ofc, we are getting the antiquities system, as has been pointed out. I do not know if that is part of the base game or if it will require owning/having access to the new chapter. Either way, it is added value.

Further, if you do not think you are getting the value for what Zos is selling it for, then do not buy it. I strongly encourage anyone who feels the chapter lacks value can refuse to purchase the chapter. That is the vote Zos listens to before any of these threads talking on subjects like these. Any business hears that loud and clear.

BTW, the only people who need to buy the chapter are serious raiders. They will be wanting to get early clears and not have their team leave them behind. The rest can wait until it is on sale of becomes part of ESO+.

Chapters don't become a part of ESO plus.

Granicus

Completely agree with OP. For these and many other reasons I’m not buying Greymoor, spending any further money in the CS, and would have had zero interest in the mobile app looking thing they’ve dreamed up. ESO has many great aspects to it, but it certainly feels as if ZOS has little interest in actually improving or even fixing it anymore. This game feels to me like it is being slowly abandoned. I offer the Murkmire event as representative evidence. I’d truly like to be wrong about this but there are too many signs to the contrary.

MercilessnVexed

It seems that people have personal expectations about games, and then they get personally offended when the game designers don't do what THEY want. The hilarity of this is, the rest of us are perfectly happy with the game. The rest of us don't have expectations of someone else's game (which is where you're getting all turned around I might add) [snip]

On a life note, you will find that - in life - it is the very same lesson. Do not have expectations of things out of your control. Enjoy what you have. Enjoy what you are doing. Be grateful that you have the opportunity at all. It can be taken from you in a heartbeat. Life is too short for such grievances.

Have a nice day.

[Edited for Baiting]

idk

Noxavian wrote: »

idk wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

.

idk wrote: »

Did Zos actually say there would be a new skill line with every chapter or is OP making a huge assumption here?

No. Neither. They haven't said it (obviously, they're not going to create a legal obligations for themselves). Nor am I "assuming" it. I'm observing a decline in standards and quality of the products being delivered. We're getting less quality and effort in the area of skill additions in each Chapter. Nothing was "assumed".

So you are reading into things the way you are talking about the skill lines. The chapter having added value is not specific to a skill line. You are reading into it by specifically wanting an actual skill line one way or another. Ofc, we are getting the antiquities system, as has been pointed out. I do not know if that is part of the base game or if it will require owning/having access to the new chapter. Either way, it is added value.

Further, if you do not think you are getting the value for what Zos is selling it for, then do not buy it. I strongly encourage anyone who feels the chapter lacks value can refuse to purchase the chapter. That is the vote Zos listens to before any of these threads talking on subjects like these. Any business hears that loud and clear.

BTW, the only people who need to buy the chapter are serious raiders. They will be wanting to get early clears and not have their team leave them behind. The rest can wait until it is on sale of becomes part of ESO+.

Chapters don't become a part of ESO plus.

Not entirely correct as the zone and trial do get demoted to a DLC. I expect you are aware and just left out details for accuracy's sake to be a little coy with the response.

For accuracy sake, only the Warden is not accessible via ESO+ out of the two previous chapters. Most of what Morrowind added is part of ESO+ or base game and all of Summerset is. So yea. . . .

Faulgor

I disagree.

There was no decline because skill line development has always been terrible.

Warden was just as bugged if not more so than Necromancer at release. Psijic skill line is a joke, considering it's the only active skill line added to the game in 6 years. Any other MMO would be considered dead with that track record.

All of their skill development effort is funneled into redesigning old skills every 6 months because their original designs don't stand the test of time.

WhyMustItBe

It is no secret that ESO has been on a steady downhill slide. Most of the original creative team has left the company at this point, driven away at least in part by disagreements over the priorities of the CEO/board to push monetization and gambling over investment in higher quality content, diverting funds from development into their own bank accounts and bonus checks.

Blizzard/Activision has been going the same direction. The attenuation of quality in both games in parallel with this trend is painfully apparent and not at all coincidence.

It is sad that businesses today have become little more than a short term money grab for the 1% at the top, and pretty much everyone else that actually produces art and content just gets taken along for the ride.

As I am sure plenty will tell you, this is "just the way business works." It didn't used to be this way, so we know business CAN work based on creativity and passion and community and quality standing on its own merits. But too often people mistake "the way things are NOW" with "the way things HAVE to be," sometimes forgetting altogether "the way things COULD be" or WERE once upon a time.

It is all a byproduct of the YOLO generation. Everything for now, party like it's 1999. It is like mortal terror has regressed our modern civilization to the level of making hungry hungry hippos the dominant global economic strategy.

All you can really do is enjoy the ride for what it is and hope the people at the top are able to RELAX at some point, finally having padded the vaults to where they feel safe enough to risk actually doing things because they are cool again and not just because they might be able to bump up quarterly earnings.

How these types could still be so desperate and frantic with literally BILLIONS in the bank I will never understand. I guess for some chasing those tangible gains month after month becomes the central purpose of their lives.

I hope one day technology can help them to gain back whatever it is that has caused them to so lose touch with the bigger picture of what life can be about.

I suspect the only thing that could save them at this point would be advancement of radical longevity technology. Yet despite it being the "cure" good luck convincing any of them to actually invest in making it happen.

It is almost like "investment" has become a dirty word, even when it is in things ultimately in our own self interest. We humans... we really are a troubled lot.

EDIT:

That said I DID pre-order the new chapter. I am going to give ZOS a chance to pleasantly surprise me with some cool stuff in the future that doesn't exclusively revolve around the Crown Store.

Kalante

Wait they added a mobile phone game mode into the game? Hahah lmao have standards really dropped that low for eso.

WhyMustItBe

The interface for the new antiquities system could definitely use some work graphically. It has too much of a WoW Dwarf/cell phone archeology clone feel to it and not enough "elder scrollsiness."

The system itself could end up being interesting. I just know they can do better than the current alpha graphics (which may just be a placeholder?).

FierceSam

Good points well made.

On the vampire changes, I’ll just wait and see what they are on PTS before making up my mind. However, there is one massive difference between what’s desirable in a single player game and what even works, let alone is desirable in an MMO. Blood Lord in TES5 makes the player one of the most powerful characters in the game. That’s one of the reasons it’s fun. You absolutely cannot do that in an MMO. So the ESO vampire is never going to be overwhelming simply because the game doesn’t want/need overwhelming.

Necro development shows both the skills and weaknesses of the dev team. It is, by far, the most flexible class. You can easily and realistically play all roles (dd, healer and tank), have both mag and stam builds that actually utilise a majority of class skills, and some builds are top notch. It looks great for the most part. But it feels like looks have massively overridden function as it plays to the gallery rather than getting its abilities to actually work and almost a year after launch, there are many basic elements that just don’t work.

The challenge for developing guild skill lines is “why should we bother?”. For players, introducing new skill sets simply muddies the water when you can only have 10 skills in your bar. And if you’re not introducing skills and just adding a load of passives, they can’t be that overwhelming or some will instantly moan about ‘paywalls’. Moreover, if it is only a bunch of passives, you risk the entire line being impotent like both Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood.

It feels to me that ZOS are like a warring army from the Middle Ages, always on the move, rampaging ever onwards, each new content drop being a huge battle from which they emerge and move onward again, leaving the field scarred and burnt but never worrying who is going to repair it.. 99% of the energy is focussed on the next conflict, 1% on maintaining the kingdom they leave behind them.