Do you agree that the skill gap is too wide and some sort of change must be done to combat?

Knowledge

olsborg

Yes

Kill the tankmeta/heavymeta. Thats all i want

Langeston

No

olsborg wrote: »

Kill the tankmeta/heavymeta. Thats all i want

That has nothing to do with a skill gap.

jadarock

No

No everyone doesnt deserve a trophy

kylewwefan

I believe I shouldn’t be doing %80 of the damage in a dungeon with combined group dps of 20k while I’m que as a healer. Still crushing it btw.

I also think it’s ridiculous that someone would beat a target dummy to the tune of 70k dps then find themselves doing <~20k in a dungeon.

I also think is silly that a class that requires skillful gameplay and precise execution of rotation can be easily outshined by A two button smash broke af opaf class/build. And I’m all about button smashing builds.

Royaji

Yes

Yes, the skill gap undeniably is a thing, especially if we were to look at the complete playerbase from the very bottom to the very top. Designing content which will be both engaging for 80k DPS players and not impossible for 10k DPS ones is problematic. This argument absolutely has merit.

The "sort of change" ZOS is trying to address the problem is where I have issues though. I'd like to see the problem addressed from both ends. Not just "decreased LA damage by 78%" to "lower the ceiling" and decrease damage output at the top (while also wrecking it at the bottom too, but that's an argument for another thread). I'd like to see more action towards "raising the floor".

And not the "floor" some of you might be thinking about. I'm talking about the absolute bottom. The "5k bow LA spam from the bush" heroes. I'd really like to see some work done towards establishing the idea that minimal thinking about your build and understanding some very basic DPS concepts like rotation, DoT management, AoE vs. ST and so on are a requirment to play the game in general. Including overland content. Your "spam-one-button-to-do-damage" journey should end the moment you encounter your first quest boss. This is a moment where a player should be stopped and made to think why hitting just one button when you have two bars of five skills which you can fill with tons of different stuff is not a viable strategy.

In short, the gap istelf can use a little shrinking from both sides, sure. But there is a much bigger problem with the fact that this gap is a lot more akin to a straight cliff somewhere between overland/normal and basic veteran content and you need a bunch of climbing tools and ideally a sherpa to get up there, instead of it being an even incline which you can gradually walk all the way to the top. Ideally with steps and a nice scenic route provided by ZOS via tutorials.

Lumsdenml

Yes

I suppose the answer depends on what you consider "skill." In this game, skill = speed. If you have the internet speed and can mash out an 8 skill rotation weaving LA in 1.5 seconds, then that is skill. There are, however, other skills in the game, but they don't really matter much in the DPS war...

Dusk_Coven

Yes. Skills are just there to cancel the animation of a Light Attack, allowing it to do damage with no resource cost and virtually no time. Compared to an actual Skill that has animation and cooldown time, Light Attack has too much of an advantage gap over Skills.

colossalvoids

No

Honestly just can't. It's super accessible compared to most games i played and yet have things to work for. But i also think that more more options could be a nice thing for ones that can't access core mechanics for some reason be it physical limitations or else, but surely not to cater for a lazy or not that smart crowd.

Iskiab

Yes

Yes, something needs to be done, no idea what.

Queuing as a tank is painful, healer’s fine for easy stuff. I think the average player qualifies as a fake dps these days.

I’d like to be able to queue as a tank and not look at 10k group dps. I won’t play one because of it.

Skjaldbjorn

Yes

Yes, and I have proposed solutions that actually address that gap repeatedly. The proposed changes from Zenimax don't actually help to bridge the gap. Many of the "low skill" players this addresses are LA spammers, who are going to lose massive chunks of their DPS. This won't hit end-game players because they'll just transition to bash weaving. That aside, the gap isn't necessarily in the LA damage but in the sustain garnered from properly weaving.

To give an example, when I parse on a Stam Sorc currently, even with Lavafoot, I noticed when my weaves were poor. Toward the end of my parse (raid dummy), I will run out of stam and either have to heavy attack or wait a second to finish my rotation. When I weave properly, my rotation is clean and finishes easily. There's your DPS loss. There's your gap.

By eliminating attacks entirely from the sustain war and placing sustain back in kits and racials, bumping CP sustain, bumping food sustain and presenting new options (such as more sets with stam/mag recovery, as they've been doing), the gap can be bridged and attacks can be left exclusively as a damage source.

If that happens, the gap shrinks purely because players can build their setup around sustaining their personal rotation, and not fret so much over sustain. Clean skill casts will lead to more clean weaving organically. It will allow players to focus more on their actual rotation and encounter less frustration and suddenly having to adjust their entire rotation because they ran out of stam on back bar.

LA damage being nerfed is reasonable, but by 20-30% or so, not the 78% being proposed. That is absurd. Heavy attack damage being buffed is a tremendous idea and I support that 200%.

TL;DR: If you actually care about bridging the gap, lower LA damage a bit, eliminate bash weaving and unchain sustain from attacking. This opens the combat system up for all players.

TheFM

No

I feel it's fine. 2 clicks per second is not asking a lot.

Kaysha

Yes

Now imagine what the result of this question would be in a starting town. You already get more than one third „Yes“ in a place with mostly veteran players...

Xologamer

No

Knowledge wrote: »

skill gap can't be wide enought u shoudn't get rewared for being bad

Kaysha

Yes

Xologamer wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

skill gap can't be wide enought u shoudn't get rewared for being bad

With your attitude the game would die within a few months. New players need a fair chance without being slautered

Kaysha

Yes

And beside that it‘s nearly impossible to create new PvE content now, that the whole playerbase can play without being frustrated or bored

SmukkeHeks

No

I don’t have an issue with skill gap. It makes sense that a 2014’er would destroy a 2020. Six years ahead is an advantage.

But I’m onboard that something has to be done. Especially if you are a new player venturing into pvp. It’s no fun to be utterly destroyed over and over again. And those capable aren’t always the wise teacher we should be. Could be.

And with that said, the something that needs to be done, also includes the meta, the exploitation and what else been going on.

YandereGirlfriend

No

Lumsdenml wrote: »

I suppose the answer depends on what you consider "skill." In this game, skill = speed. If you have the internet speed and can mash out an 8 skill rotation weaving LA in 1.5 seconds, then that is skill. There are, however, other skills in the game, but they don't really matter much in the DPS war...

I grow exceedingly weary of reading this particular genre of reply.

Those who equate DPS with "mindless button-mashing" and "spamming" heavily imply that they know little of which they speak.

There is certainly no "mindless mashing" going on in high-end parses and even less "spamming." Much care goes into the crafting and execution of a rotation, especially a dynamic rotation, and every button press has been weighed and optimized for maximum damage and resource efficiency.

This is an action MMORPG not a turn-based JRPG or strategy game, so some degree of manual dexterity, reflexes, and quick mental processing is basically implied by the format.

It's certainly true that there are other skills that one can apply in ESO (e.g. being a master trader) but trying to condescend to the raiding community for being good at the mechanics of the game that they play is an odd and fundamentally misguided gambit.

idk

Yes

What we "believe" to be the case is just an opinion and we lack the actual facts to create a truly informed opinion. Each of us has a very limited view of the game in this aspect.

MyPrist

No

There is no skill GAP.

Only no BRAINers and people who do not want to learn to play.

I made custom build for people with 5 FPS and 260 ping - and after 2 days training with me they did 40 k DPS on 3 kk hp dummy.

40 k dps is enough to close all vetDLC dunguan content on HM easely ! We do most of it in just 1 tank and 1 dd.

What skill GAP are you talking about - if you just watch Alcast - put on top gear for players with 40 ping 180 fps and that was made for perfect rotation - that do damage only with perfect timeing ?

It is not strange that you have 20 k dps with it if youu are noob. But if it is possible to put on 4 sets (2 sets + 1 arena + 1 monster helmet), if calculate that 1 set do 4 k DPS by itself - 4*4=16 only on sets.

If you put 2 different damage enchants on each bar - 4 k DPS from each bar - just by 2 skills active !!! One skill on back and 1 skill on main bar ! 16+8= 24 k DPS !!! With doing nothingonly 2 skills and panel swap. All other think you need just spam 1 ability or ability + light attack to get 5 k dps from LA and 10 for example from spamable skill.39 k dps already !!!

Yes you will newer do 50+ k dps on 3 kk dummy with it but 30 k is enough for all content if you do not die ! Like dromatra destroer always do in each dunguan last days )))

Is it problem with GAP or DPS ? No it is not.

It is problem with your brains and knowing of game mechanicks.

Already hate change gear each 3 month after changes of new combat team.

You will newer play better if you will not learn. No changes will make you play better. The only way to play better - play with all even bad groups in hard content. And try to pass it with each group and each new problem you get.

If some people lose money on changing gear - each 3 month - it do not make you play better. It just make good players hate the game and leave it. Your skills will not go up from it. You will only got game with low skilled players - where no one who play good will never go in future - becouse if you nerf it to much it will be just booring for them.

If all problems i have is just - to change gear each 3 month to play the same - is this game for people with unlimited time and money ? Or do you think that what ever changes will be made - people with skill will play worse then a noobs with no games EXP ? [snip]

[edited for baiting]

arun_rajputb16_ESO

Yes

Ask a bunch ofDD's if they're happy to have their numbers reduced... what did you expect the answer to be.

This is the best thing ESO could do. The current trend was to swap out healers for another high dps dd. That was putting off a lot of people. This would have resulted in very few healers which would be very detrimental to the game. If this dps ceiling is reduced then it's not possible to burn bosses and healers/tanks will be needed again. The group dynamic returns.

This is a good change for the game.

I've quit ESO (not because of this... this annoucement nearly made me come back - I'm wasn't low dps; my dd's all hit around 70k) and swtiched to FF XIV. They have a tutorial on how to play as DD/Healer/Tank. ESO should introduce something like that.

Sanguinor2

No

The skillgap is so huge because those at the Bottom either dont know the Combat or dont care to know the Combat, not because it is so incredibly difficult or taxing to click left click with each ability.
We dont Need Combat changes to adress that rather we Need Zos to explain all parts of Combat better ingame. If someone doesnt know what a Rotation is or what a build is and he is running around in lets say Phoenix and Endurance because he thinks having more survivability is great then he will have incredibly low dps and not because he doesnt LA weave well but because he doesnt have any idea what he is doing.

MyPrist

No

arun_rajputb16_ESO wrote: »

Ask a bunch ofDD's if they're happy to have their numbers reduced... what did you expect the answer to be.

This is the best thing ESO could do. The current trend was to swap out healers for another high dps dd. That was putting off a lot of people. This would have resulted in very few healers which would be very detrimental to the game. If this dps ceiling is reduced then it's not possible to burn bosses and healers/tanks will be needed again. The group dynamic returns.

This is a good change for the game.

I've quit ESO (not because of this... this annoucement nearly made me come back - I'm wasn't low dps; my dd's all hit around 70k) and swtiched to FF XIV. They have a tutorial on how to play as DD/Healer/Tank. ESO should introduce something like that.

Useless party member will newer be needed.

Party needs only those who do some thing in it. If DPS go down - they just take 3 DD and tank - what for healer is needed ?

Just as example 3 players veteran Scalecaller Peak NAKED. (1 year ago when it was not even nerfed)

https://youtu.be/Fn_eCR5gfzE

Healer for what ? I can do mutagen mutagen mutagen - and do damaging rotation with this.

Naked run veteran DLC dunguqan - naked tank and 2 dds.

Damage go down and what ? We just take 3rd naked DD.

And all be fine.

I like good healers and i always take 3-rd group member as healer if he plays good and do not only spam mutagen, but if he do nothing - what is a point ?

Damage goes down - healers will be needed ? Nice joke> for dunguans that can be pass with 3 naked people - naked tank / naked 2 dd s >?

And you always cry that it is too hard you to pass in full gear and nerf it each update ?

arun_rajputb16_ESO

Yes

MyPrist wrote: »

Useless party member will newer be needed.

Party needs only those who do some thing in it. If DPS go down - they just take 3 DD and tank - what for healer is needed ?

Just as example 3 players veteran Scalecaller Peak NAKED. (1 year ago when it was not even nerfed)

Healer for what ? I can do mutagen mutagen mutagen - and do damaging rotation with this.

Naked run veteran DLC dunguqan - naked tank and 2 dds.

Damage go down and what ? We just take 3rd naked DD.

And all be fine.

I like good healers and i always take 3-rd group member as healer if he plays good and do not only spam mutagen, but if he do nothing - what is a point ?

Damage goes down - healers will be needed ? Nice joke> for dunguans that can be pass with 3 naked people - naked tank / naked 2 dd s >?

And you always cry that it is too hard you to pass in full gear and nerf it each update ?

I'm going to try and wade through your comments - I guess you're trying to be helpful but in reality it just looks like you're attempting to show off. Why you still play a game where you can do all the hardest 4 man content naked is beyond me...

Party needs only those who do some thing in it. If DPS go down - they just take 3 DD and tank - what for healer is needed ?

This doesn't make sense. The first sentance isn't related to the second sentance. I get that you're first language isn't English, and that's absolutely fine - I commend you, your English is definitely better than my other language skills.

Just as example 3 players veteran Scalecaller Peak NAKED. (1 year ago when it was not even nerfed)

These naked runs exist purely because of the OP high damage. If they reduce the damage, you'll need to focus on the mechanics, and then you'll need a healer/buffer.

Healer for what ? I can do mutagen mutagen mutagen - and do damaging rotation with this.

It's a shame I don't play anymore. I'd show you what an actual healer/buffer does.

Naked run veteran DLC dunguqan - naked tank and 2 dds.

Damage go down and what ? We just take 3rd naked DD.

And all be fine.

i don't know what you're trying to say...

I like good healers and i always take 3-rd group member as healer if he plays good and do not only spam mutagen, but if he do nothing - what is a point ?

When healing is useful again, and this update should do that, then you'll see healers return to the game. Then, you'll see what proper healers do. Spamming Regen is not healing - I count buffing as part of healing, so I use the term homogeneously.

Damage goes down - healers will be needed ? Nice joke> for dunguans that can be pass with 3 naked people - naked tank / naked 2 dd s >?

The naked runs exist because the damage is so high. You won't be naked if the boss fight takes longer and you have to actually deal with the mechanics.
I'll give you a real world example - Go to do vCP HM. Now, when the frost giants spawn, only kill them with heavy attacks. It'll take a few seconds to kill them. See how much damage you take?

If you can do vSCP HM naked with no healer and only using heavy attacks (to simulate the reduction in damage) on the frost giant phase, I'll concede that this update is pointless.

MyPrist

No

arun_rajputb16_ESO wrote: »

MyPrist wrote: »

Useless party member will newer be needed.

Party needs only those who do some thing in it. If DPS go down - they just take 3 DD and tank - what for healer is needed ?

Just as example 3 players veteran Scalecaller Peak NAKED. (1 year ago when it was not even nerfed)

Healer for what ? I can do mutagen mutagen mutagen - and do damaging rotation with this.

Naked run veteran DLC dunguqan - naked tank and 2 dds.

Damage go down and what ? We just take 3rd naked DD.

And all be fine.

I like good healers and i always take 3-rd group member as healer if he plays good and do not only spam mutagen, but if he do nothing - what is a point ?

Damage goes down - healers will be needed ? Nice joke> for dunguans that can be pass with 3 naked people - naked tank / naked 2 dd s >?

And you always cry that it is too hard you to pass in full gear and nerf it each update ?

I'm going to try and wade through your comments - I guess you're trying to be helpful but in reality it just looks like you're attempting to show off. Why you still play a game where you can do all the hardest 4 man content naked is beyond me...

Party needs only those who do some thing in it. If DPS go down - they just take 3 DD and tank - what for healer is needed ?

This doesn't make sense. The first sentance isn't related to the second sentance. I get that you're first language isn't English, and that's absolutely fine - I commend you, your English is definitely better than my other language skills.

Just as example 3 players veteran Scalecaller Peak NAKED. (1 year ago when it was not even nerfed)

These naked runs exist purely because of the OP high damage. If they reduce the damage, you'll need to focus on the mechanics, and then you'll need a healer/buffer.

Healer for what ? I can do mutagen mutagen mutagen - and do damaging rotation with this.

It's a shame I don't play anymore. I'd show you what an actual healer/buffer does.

Naked run veteran DLC dunguqan - naked tank and 2 dds.

Damage go down and what ? We just take 3rd naked DD.

And all be fine.

i don't know what you're trying to say...

I like good healers and i always take 3-rd group member as healer if he plays good and do not only spam mutagen, but if he do nothing - what is a point ?

When healing is useful again, and this update should do that, then you'll see healers return to the game. Then, you'll see what proper healers do. Spamming Regen is not healing - I count buffing as part of healing, so I use the term homogeneously.

Damage goes down - healers will be needed ? Nice joke> for dunguans that can be pass with 3 naked people - naked tank / naked 2 dd s >?

The naked runs exist because the damage is so high. You won't be naked if the boss fight takes longer and you have to actually deal with the mechanics.
I'll give you a real world example - Go to do vCP HM. Now, when the frost giants spawn, only kill them with heavy attacks. It'll take a few seconds to kill them. See how much damage you take?

If you can do vSCP HM naked with no healer and only using heavy attacks (to simulate the reduction in damage) on the frost giant phase, I'll concede that this update is pointless.

OP high damage ? 10 k dps in video is to high damage for you >? Oh my god i just walk away from this topick - it only make me angry like this game already.

Have a nice day.

MyPrist

No

Dr_Ganknstein

No

Everything has a skill gap. There should be a skill gap. Even monopoly has a skill gap. I think a skill gap is fine if it is based off player skill. When there is a gap due to levels or CP it makes it tough for players to jump into the action. That kind of gap sucks and is discouraging for new players.

Septimus_Magna

Yes

Iskiab wrote: »

Yes, something needs to be done, no idea what.

Queuing as a tank is painful, healer’s fine for easy stuff. I think the average player qualifies as a fake dps these days.

I’d like to be able to queue as a tank and not look at 10k group dps. I won’t play one because of it.

Tell me about it, as a tank my Elemental Blockade sometimes deals 25% of the group dps.
For regular vet dungeons I am willing to be patient, explain mechanics and stuff but often people just dont want to hear it.

The game needs to have either an Undaunted College to teach people how to perform their role.
Or form groups based on CP, gear quality or something else.

I completely agree that there is a big skill gap, some of this can be reduced by making HA stronger but that wont solve it.
Teach players in-game how to perform the core mechanics of their role and everyone will be happier.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime
-Maimonides

Juhasow

Yes skill gap exist. The size of it fuelled though by people who spend their time to master DPS rotation and get the best setups possible on the one hand and people who wants to run in green items found in bushes , refuse to train their role and expect to be competitive on the other hand. ZoS wants to change how first group performs while doing nothing to the other.

technohic

No

Im not sure I get it at all. Skill gap is huge but for those of use who want to get better; you can work on it and get there. And for those that dont want to try so hard; isnt just playing the game and socializing what they are more into? I mean how is it a problem if everyone has their own ways of having fun?

Luede

No

the skill gap would only be great if it existed between people who both make equal efforts to get better. Now there is only a skill gap between people who want to improve and players who do not want to invest any work in improving their skills