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What if crafting allowed us to change the weight of a piece of armor?

JinMori
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This is basically a proposition to zos, what if we could change the weight of a piece of armor through crafting, i think it's a good idea personally, nothing too dramatic, just a nice thing to have.

It would also allow to have setups that at the moment are impossible to have with 5 1 1, for example, let's say that i want to try a succ sorrow both on body setup, with 5 1 1, well, at the moment that is impossible.


And let's also consider this for pvp, some may make the argument that you could change a dps setup to heavy armor and run around doing immense damage while having a lot of defense, well for one that is already happening, second, it's still a dps setup, even if you change it to heavy, it's still a dps setup, you are bound to lose a lot of defense, so it will be just another ganker setup with less damage and more defense.

I don't think such a thing would bring any drawbacks to the game.
Edited by JinMori on March 28, 2020 2:20PM
  • vgabor
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    When I heard about transmutation way back, first I though the weight change what it is doing :D
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  • JinMori
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    vgabor wrote: »
    When I heard about transmutation way back, first I though the weight change what it is doing :D

    This would just add on top, the transmute was a good thing, but this would also be good.
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  • MJallday
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    How do you make metal in to leather?

    Or vice versa?
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  • Mindcr0w
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    The same way you make a piece of metal or leather make you run faster or make your Zodiac sign "stronger"?
    Edited by Mindcr0w on March 28, 2020 3:44PM
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  • FierceSam
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    I imagine that this will have exactly the opposite effect than you think.

    It will not result in more varied builds.

    Instead it will reduce the number of trade offs players have to make to ensure their build is as good as possible. This will reduce variety of builds and reinforce the meta build. Every single build will be heavy armoured.

    For instance, Alkosh will immediately become a heavy set, easy to acquire and use. Fewer players will need to do vMoL. Every monster set from every dungeon will effectively be whatever weight you want, again reducing the need to repeat content in search of the desired weight.

    This will create a much more homogenous, cookie cutter build system, which is everything ZOS are trying (desperately) to avoid.

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  • JinMori
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    MJallday wrote: »
    How do you make metal in to leather?

    Or vice versa?

    How do you change a sapphire into a ruby? Are we seriously asking such a stupid question when magic exist?


    We can use souls to make enchantments, we have meteors levitating above cities, and transmuting leather into metal is where you draw the line?

    And if we wanna get even more specific, because i'm sure someone will think, well a sapphire and a ruby are both inorganic stones, leather isn't, so it's not the same thing.

    Ok let's see what is the difference, all matter is consisted of atoms, to change the final material you have to change the composition of said materials, so you would have to introduce or remove protons, electrons and neutrons to change the atomic weigh of the atom, and as a result change what the atom is into whatever you want, so, it's irrelevant whether it is leather or iron, you just need to change the composition to arrive at the result you want, it makes no difference whether you start with a stone and get metal or start with leather and get metal, all you have to do is change the atomic composition.

    You could technically do this irl, it's just so costly and complicated that nobody will probably ever do it, not right now, that's for sure, but here we have magic.

    [Edit to remove flame]
    Edited by [Deleted User] on March 28, 2020 8:31PM
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  • JinMori
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    FierceSam wrote: »
    I imagine that this will have exactly the opposite effect than you think.

    It will not result in more varied builds.

    Instead it will reduce the number of trade offs players have to make to ensure their build is as good as possible. This will reduce variety of builds and reinforce the meta build. Every single build will be heavy armoured.

    For instance, Alkosh will immediately become a heavy set, easy to acquire and use. Fewer players will need to do vMoL. Every monster set from every dungeon will effectively be whatever weight you want, again reducing the need to repeat content in search of the desired weight.

    This will create a much more homogenous, cookie cutter build system, which is everything ZOS are trying (desperately) to avoid.

    The point was never that. Also, i think you are incorrect, at the end of the day you have more choice, but some are better, but you are the one who choose, keep that in mind. It's not that there is less choice, it's just that a specific set is better compared to another, nobody forces you to use it, you do because either the group requires it, or because you want to use that set, if you don;t like being forced to run a set, find another group, that's about it.

    People are already running things like elfbane because they are very good on specific setups, doesn't matter that it's heavy.

    Also, every build on heavy? Please, that is just false.

    Also, obviously to avoid it becoming too easy, you would have to spend quite a few resources to change the weight, like transmuting, it's not something you can do willy nilly.
    Edited by JinMori on March 28, 2020 4:42PM
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  • Taleof2Cities
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    This has been brought up many times before, @JinMori.

    The reason it won’t happen is that it would be a nightmare for the devs in terms of re-balancing combat.
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  • JinMori
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    I see, disappointing.

    Not gonna lie it just seems like an excuse, with that kind of mentality why even add anything?

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  • Noxavian
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    MJallday wrote: »
    How do you make metal in to leather?

    Or vice versa?

    Through transmutation. This is Elder Scrolls. Not the real world.

    The alteration skill tree would be perfect for this.
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  • SeaGtGruff
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    My first inclination is to say "No way," because even in a fantasy game you can't just wave a wand and change a robe made out of ancestor silk into a cuirass made out of rubedite.

    On the other hand, there are certain dropped sets which I'd love to use for their set bonuses, but they come exclusively in light, medium, or heavy armor. It would be cool to take a set that's exclusively in medium armor and convert it into heavy armor.

    But no. As cool as it would be, I still think it would be a bad idea overall.
    I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!
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  • JinMori
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    SeaGtGruff wrote: »
    My first inclination is to say "No way," because even in a fantasy game you can't just wave a wand and change a robe made out of ancestor silk into a cuirass made out of rubedite.

    On the other hand, there are certain dropped sets which I'd love to use for their set bonuses, but they come exclusively in light, medium, or heavy armor. It would be cool to take a set that's exclusively in medium armor and convert it into heavy armor.

    But no. As cool as it would be, I still think it would be a bad idea overall.

    You mean in a fantasy world where we can create stuff out of thin air? Wouldn't you already draw the line there then?

    You can literally conjure a set of armor in the elder scrolls, but changing the physical properties of materials is too much? When we quite literally have a school of magic called alteration?

    [Edit to remove flame]
    Edited by [Deleted User] on March 28, 2020 8:24PM
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  • thorwyn
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    The game already gives you a flexible spot via jewelry and weapons to gain the advantage of using a set that is actually not designed for that armor type. That's what keeps players farming. Alkosh and Advancing Yokeda springs to mind (yes, I know, Yokeda is a bit outdated... doesn't change my point though).
    I don't know if it would make a lot of difference meta wise. Probably not. Just out of interest: do you have a combination of sets in mind that is impossible under the current circumstances?
    And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
    And if there is no room upon the hill
    And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
    I'll see you on the dark side of the moon
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  • JinMori
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    thorwyn wrote: »
    The game already gives you a flexible spot via jewelry and weapons to gain the advantage of using a set that is actually not designed for that armor type. That's what keeps players farming. Alkosh and Advancing Yokeda springs to mind (yes, I know, Yokeda is a bit outdated... doesn't change my point though).
    I don't know if it would make a lot of difference meta wise. Probably not. Just out of interest: do you have a combination of sets in mind that is impossible under the current circumstances?

    It's mostly the 5 1 1 setup, for example, it's impossible to have both succ and bsw or sorrow on body while also having a 5 1 1 setup.

    Things like that.

    And also, it's a problem for sets like elfbane, you can run a heavy set on front bar, but if you wanna run it on body you will have to use at least 2 pieces of heavy.
    Edited by JinMori on March 28, 2020 7:55PM
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  • daemonor
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    So your agenda is running BSW and mother's sorrow with an asylum staff?
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  • John_Falstaff
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    This has been brought up many times before, @JinMori.

    The reason it won’t happen is that it would be a nightmare for the devs in terms of re-balancing combat.

    I'll assume you're tracking PTS. It doesn't seem like devs are afraid of nightmares. On the contrary, I think they're nightmare addicts.
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  • JinMori
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    daemonor wrote: »
    So your agenda is running BSW and mother's sorrow with an asylum staff?

    It's hardy bis anyway, and if i wanted to why not?

    So who cares, there aren't really many drawbacks. At worse we get some sets which now are meta, which is a worse only on a subjective level, at best we get new comps to play around, which may be fun.

    At the end of the day it's all subjective, some people get really triggered at meta, i don't really care to be honest, i just like having as much freedom of choice as i can.

    And let';s take the worst case scenario, now you can run damage sets in pvp as heavy, ok, so what? You get some better defenses but you have to sacrifice damage, and it's not like wearing a defense heavy set anyway, so at worse you create some new gank setups which do less damage but have better defense. Which you can already do.
    Edited by JinMori on March 28, 2020 8:10PM
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  • thissocalledflower
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    It's easy to do. It requires the origional armor plus the amount it would take of the material you wish to use if you were crafting it, plus 100 trandmute gems - 50 to transmute the trait base you wish to copy and 50 more for the set base you wish to transfer to the new material. The old armor item is destroyed in the process... Also, if it isn't the correct trait you have to change it to the correct trait you wish it to have before ou transmute the set. So in total that could run you as much as 150 transmute gems per item.


    Problem solved...


    Next!
    After careful consideration (and oh! so much deliberation) we have concluded that you circumstance sounds too much like a l2p issue for it to be just a mere coincidence.
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  • yodased
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    fury medium with new light attack meta giving no damage? No thanks.
    light armor ebon? with shields? no thanks


    There are reasons that they created tradeoffs of armor weights , passives, stat boosts and 5piece effects. They are meant to try and balance things.

    Balance comes from restriction not from more options in this game.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
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  • Dusk_Coven
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    How about just changing the Undaunted monster set shoulder boxes again? 10 keys to specifically identify what shoulder you want, but random weight.
    I still hear of people spending over 100 keys and not getting the correct type/weight combination. That's almost worse than the single-random-shoulder boxes, which are 1 key only and give you lots of other loot besides.
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  • idk
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    JinMori wrote: »
    I see, disappointing.

    Not gonna lie it just seems like an excuse, with that kind of mentality why even add anything?

    What would be disappointing is a games developers that change things on the whims of players without thinking it through.

    To2C has the right thought. Balance is likely an issue. I realize you have been angling to find different ways to get your 5/1/1 easier but Zos clearly designed some things so we had to make choices. While they may accept your idea it is very likely they will not as it has been discussed more than once before this thread.

    Also, players do not seem to what it. I came across a poll on the subject and 2/3s felt it was not needed.
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  • JinMori
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    yodased wrote: »
    fury medium with new light attack meta giving no damage? No thanks.
    light armor ebon? with shields? no thanks


    There are reasons that they created tradeoffs of armor weights , passives, stat boosts and 5piece effects. They are meant to try and balance things.

    Balance comes from restriction not from more options in this game.

    You mean the set where you need to take damage in order for it to increase your weapon damage? You are gonna be dead long before it's useful.

    Also, light armor ebon set? Yea? So what, what's the big deal? You get more health, and you give more health to your allies, there really are not a lot of reasons to run it in anything other than heavy, but if you wanted to run it light, at least now you have a choice.

    You are gonna be a light armor tank with better damage less survivability, so? What's the big deal. What's the big smoking gun?

    You have to consider that to reach the shield cap you also have to have quite a bit of max magicka, which you will probably will not have, unless you stack shields, but at that point you are just a tank basically.
    Edited by JinMori on March 28, 2020 8:42PM
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  • idk
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    JinMori wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    fury medium with new light attack meta giving no damage? No thanks.
    light armor ebon? with shields? no thanks


    There are reasons that they created tradeoffs of armor weights , passives, stat boosts and 5piece effects. They are meant to try and balance things.

    Balance comes from restriction not from more options in this game.

    You mean the set where you need to take damage in order for it to increase your weapon damage? You are gonna be dead long before it's useful.

    Also, light armor ebon set? Yea? So what, what's the big deal? You get more health, and you give more health to your allies, there really are not a lot of reasons to run it in anything other than heavy, but if you wanted to run it light, at least now you have a choice.

    You are gonna be a light armor tank with better damage less survivability, so? What's the big deal. What's the big smoking gun?

    You have to consider that to reach the shield cap you also have to have quite a bit of max magicka, which you will probably will not have, unless you stack shields, but at that point you are just a tank basically.

    If anything, this is a great example of why this is a bad idea. It would be a bad tank with bad damage.

    Also, it is irrelevant to the suggestion in the OP. We can equip a full set of Ebon via jewelry and weapons.
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  • JinMori
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    idk wrote: »
    JinMori wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    fury medium with new light attack meta giving no damage? No thanks.
    light armor ebon? with shields? no thanks


    There are reasons that they created tradeoffs of armor weights , passives, stat boosts and 5piece effects. They are meant to try and balance things.

    Balance comes from restriction not from more options in this game.

    You mean the set where you need to take damage in order for it to increase your weapon damage? You are gonna be dead long before it's useful.

    Also, light armor ebon set? Yea? So what, what's the big deal? You get more health, and you give more health to your allies, there really are not a lot of reasons to run it in anything other than heavy, but if you wanted to run it light, at least now you have a choice.

    You are gonna be a light armor tank with better damage less survivability, so? What's the big deal. What's the big smoking gun?

    You have to consider that to reach the shield cap you also have to have quite a bit of max magicka, which you will probably will not have, unless you stack shields, but at that point you are just a tank basically.

    If anything, this is a great example of why this is a bad idea. It would be a bad tank with bad damage.

    Also, it is irrelevant to the suggestion in the OP. We can equip a full set of Ebon via jewelry and weapons.

    Yea, it would be a bad setup. Which is why i pointed it out as a non problem

    But that was not the actual point, the point is that you have more choice, and some of those choices may be very good.
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  • rexagamemnon
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    If this happened, i foresee everyone getting a full set of rattlecage and “crafting” it to light armor.
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  • John_Falstaff
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    If this happened, i foresee everyone getting a full set of rattlecage and “crafting” it to light armor.

    No amount of weight changes can help Rattlecage become anything other than deconstruction material. :)
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  • idk
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    JinMori wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    JinMori wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    fury medium with new light attack meta giving no damage? No thanks.
    light armor ebon? with shields? no thanks


    There are reasons that they created tradeoffs of armor weights , passives, stat boosts and 5piece effects. They are meant to try and balance things.

    Balance comes from restriction not from more options in this game.

    You mean the set where you need to take damage in order for it to increase your weapon damage? You are gonna be dead long before it's useful.

    Also, light armor ebon set? Yea? So what, what's the big deal? You get more health, and you give more health to your allies, there really are not a lot of reasons to run it in anything other than heavy, but if you wanted to run it light, at least now you have a choice.

    You are gonna be a light armor tank with better damage less survivability, so? What's the big deal. What's the big smoking gun?

    You have to consider that to reach the shield cap you also have to have quite a bit of max magicka, which you will probably will not have, unless you stack shields, but at that point you are just a tank basically.

    If anything, this is a great example of why this is a bad idea. It would be a bad tank with bad damage.

    Also, it is irrelevant to the suggestion in the OP. We can equip a full set of Ebon via jewelry and weapons.

    Yea, it would be a bad setup. Which is why i pointed it out as a non problem

    But that was not the actual point, the point is that you have more choice, and some of those choices may be very good.

    Cherry-picking situations does nothing to support your argument.

    You also mistake having more choice with having to make a choice. The two are not interchangeable.
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  • yodased
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    JinMori wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    fury medium with new light attack meta giving no damage? No thanks.
    light armor ebon? with shields? no thanks


    There are reasons that they created tradeoffs of armor weights , passives, stat boosts and 5piece effects. They are meant to try and balance things.

    Balance comes from restriction not from more options in this game.

    You mean the set where you need to take damage in order for it to increase your weapon damage? You are gonna be dead long before it's useful.

    Also, light armor ebon set? Yea? So what, what's the big deal? You get more health, and you give more health to your allies, there really are not a lot of reasons to run it in anything other than heavy, but if you wanted to run it light, at least now you have a choice.

    You are gonna be a light armor tank with better damage less survivability, so? What's the big deal. What's the big smoking gun?

    You have to consider that to reach the shield cap you also have to have quite a bit of max magicka, which you will probably will not have, unless you stack shields, but at that point you are just a tank basically.

    no you won't because of the upcoming changes to light attack and how people weave. You are going to be able to take a lot more individual hits to stack fury.

    Those are just two examples of sets that are weighted by design, if you allow the reweighting you would have to rebalance everything, which would be impossible because you can't balance without restriction.

    It seems like a great thing to have as many options as possible, but you are now getting into a multitude of edge case scenarios that can't be replicated by the team. They introduce meta's by creating over performing sets and skills every patch, allowing you to reweight as well as retrait i guess would allow for the playerbase to set the meta in a way, but at the same time you are going to homogonize the playerbase into X set for A role in Y weight and Q trait only.

    The problem here is the general ethos of this game competes with what it is. It wants to be a single player game giving you the ultimate hero experience, while being a player v player balanced game with a semi- rock paper scissors replica. You are asking to increase those variables exponentially.
    Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.
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  • JinMori
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    idk wrote: »
    JinMori wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    JinMori wrote: »
    yodased wrote: »
    fury medium with new light attack meta giving no damage? No thanks.
    light armor ebon? with shields? no thanks


    There are reasons that they created tradeoffs of armor weights , passives, stat boosts and 5piece effects. They are meant to try and balance things.

    Balance comes from restriction not from more options in this game.

    You mean the set where you need to take damage in order for it to increase your weapon damage? You are gonna be dead long before it's useful.

    Also, light armor ebon set? Yea? So what, what's the big deal? You get more health, and you give more health to your allies, there really are not a lot of reasons to run it in anything other than heavy, but if you wanted to run it light, at least now you have a choice.

    You are gonna be a light armor tank with better damage less survivability, so? What's the big deal. What's the big smoking gun?

    You have to consider that to reach the shield cap you also have to have quite a bit of max magicka, which you will probably will not have, unless you stack shields, but at that point you are just a tank basically.

    If anything, this is a great example of why this is a bad idea. It would be a bad tank with bad damage.

    Also, it is irrelevant to the suggestion in the OP. We can equip a full set of Ebon via jewelry and weapons.

    Yea, it would be a bad setup. Which is why i pointed it out as a non problem

    But that was not the actual point, the point is that you have more choice, and some of those choices may be very good.

    Cherry-picking situations does nothing to support your argument.

    You also mistake having more choice with having to make a choice. The two are not interchangeable.

    Didn't you just cherry pick a situation where a certain setup would be bad therefore the suggestion is bad?

    If anything, this is a great example of why this is a bad idea. It would be a bad tank with bad damage.

    Look, i don't really wanna prolong conversations with you, but at least try to be a little consistent.

    I never said that you cannot have bad setups with the ability to choose the weight of your set pieces, but you also can have good setups, i am not cherry picking anything, you are.

    My comment was simply a response to what the other person said, and i pointed out that it was a non problem.

    And that's it, i am not gonna continue this conversation with you, because i already know what it will end up with, and i just wanna avoid the headache.
    Edited by JinMori on March 28, 2020 11:59PM
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  • LuxLunae
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    well zos had something ...giving us options..but at the end, it all goes down one pigeon hole...before they implement that, they are looking for that pigeon hole.
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