What is your reason for low APM (if you consider yourself to be on this side of the equation)

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

None of the above

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Some of you really need a gaming mouse and it shows.

Yah, let me just.... *stares at console*

TheFM

None of the above

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

@TheFM I don't think OP's point was a call for having ZOS' horrible idea to move forward, rather to see various reasons why some of us are low/med APM. I myself am medium, and at most times the very low end of medium APM, and I'm fully against ZOS' proposed changes. Don't assume that just because we can't fluidly AC and be able to weave flawlessly, that we'd want combat mechanics to be turned on it's head. I really don't think that's the point of this thread.

Then all they would need to do is change the star for light attacks, and make heavy builds slightly more viable. Done. Finished. Basta. Finito.

TheFM

None of the above

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Some of you really need a gaming mouse and it shows.

Yah, let me just.... *stares at console*

I play on controller with arthritis. So.....

Kesstryl

I mostly use abilities (and few basic attacks)

I have carpal tunnel and that's why I don't DPS vet content. To be honest, the proposed changes will hurt me because I mainly tank and heal, and needing to light attack weave to get resources will kill my hands. I prefer getting resources from heavy attacks. I don't want my hard work to get good at healing and tanking get shipwrecked.

TheFM

None of the above

Kesstryl wrote: »

I have carpal tunnel and that's why I don't DPS vet content. To be honest, the proposed changes will hurt me because I mainly tank and heal, and needing to light attack weave to get resources will kill my hands. I prefer getting resources from heavy attacks. I don't want my hard work to get good at healing and tanking get shipwrecked.

This.

Nord_Raseri

I mostly use Light Attacks in combat (and few abilities/potions)

TheFM wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

@TheFM I don't think OP's point was a call for having ZOS' horrible idea to move forward, rather to see various reasons why some of us are low/med APM. I myself am medium, and at most times the very low end of medium APM, and I'm fully against ZOS' proposed changes. Don't assume that just because we can't fluidly AC and be able to weave flawlessly, that we'd want combat mechanics to be turned on it's head. I really don't think that's the point of this thread.

Then all they would need to do is change the star for light attacks, and make heavy builds slightly more viable. Done. Finished. Basta. Finito.

Again, I'm not pushing for ZOS to do anything, let alone the proposed changes. I like my light attacks the way they are on live(Except in werewolf form, i have better dps in human form right now). Actually, the only change I want from zos is to un-nerf werewolves.

Edit: If anyone thinks I'm for these changse, for pve I main a nord stamsork werewolf with molag kena. These changes brutally nerf my main "spamable"(LAs) by 78%, my passive LA buff (bound armaments), AND the monster set that makes it somewhat viable- Molag Kena(100% nerf). Yeah, trust me, 100% against all of this.

Cage_Lizardman

None of the above

This question runs into the Dunning-Kruger problem, it's often difficult for someone who is not good at something to explain why. It's about as meaningful as asking a stupid person why they are stupid, even if they don't just punch you in the face you're still not likely to get a sensible answer.

People might explain this by saying they haven't practiced enough, but it's difficult of find out exactly what you need to practice on, exactly what you're doing wrong, this can be very individual. The game doesn't help you much, and it's more or less necessary to already be good at it in order to understand how to get there.

The reverse isn't true though, you can be a good player while having no verbal understanding whatsoever of how you got there, since much of it is instinctive and some people are more naturally inclined to learn these sorts of things, hand-eye coordination etc... And that's how we get the "git gud" crowd. Many of them don't understand their own improvement, and far fewer how to assist anyone else.

I'd also like to know more about how the gap looks in detail. Sure there are a lot of people at the bottom who don't know about or can't handle rotations and weaving, everyone starts out that way, but knowing about those things and practicing doesn't necessarily ever get you 70k dps (or whatever). Plenty of us get stuck somewhere along the way, and some of us don't know exactly why.

You can look at esologs and tell there's usually a difference in dps between players with low casts per minute and high. And the people with low CPM do not necessarily just spam one thing. Would be nice to get some real data on how the gap looks like from that.

Ye_Olde_Crowe

None of the above

Well, I certainly have a working rotation for my only DD built for DPS, and it works. Changing LA weaving would change the rotation, of course, but I'm sure I would adapt.
I do main a PvE tank, however, I'm definitely a better tank than I am a DD, and he doesn't rely on weaving.
We'll see.

vestahls

None of the above

Do I count as low APM if I click and nothing happens?

Is the APM on the player's side or on the game's side?

If an APM happens and nobody sees it, was it ever real?

newtinmpls

None of the above

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

It would be useful for ZOS to know why people have low APM and why they choose to.

I have an average dex, slightly less than average now, as I am over 5 decades old.

You seem to have missed the point. Having a "low APM" is not about choice. It's about typing speed, dexterity, whatever you want to call it.

Edit: I have and use a gaming mouse. Yes, that does help some.
.

D0PAMINE

Qbiken wrote: »

Bad performance

Im sitting here like "is this a real thread lol" glad im not the only one.

Banana

None of the above

Connecting from half a world away with a variable ping.

oxygen_thief

None of the above

i use la, ha, abilities but they dont work because of bad performance and european overloaded network. game doesnt work so i guess they want to slow combat down a little bit to make it more forgiving for mistakes caused by bad performance. i think its much cheaper than actually fixing bugs

Stevie6

I mostly use abilities (and few basic attacks)

Low APM can also be associated with the ability to aim and hit the target. I think the current "hit box" on targets is way too small to make an accurate connection with a damage ability or weapon. Sometimes I find myself at point blank range and use a LA and nothing. Move the mouse just a fraction then it will hit. By making the hit box bigger by 50% might help with overall dps. Just saying.

TheFM

None of the above

Stevie6 wrote: »

Low APM can also be associated with the ability to aim and hit the target. I think the current "hit box" on targets is way too small to make an accurate connection with a damage ability or weapon. Sometimes I find myself at point blank range and use a LA and nothing. Move the mouse just a fraction then it will hit. By making the hit box bigger by 50% might help with overall dps. Just saying.

The hit boxes are a mess. Sometimes I aim way off to the side and hit them, and sometimes I am pointing right at the center mass and the ability hits the enemy three meters to the left of them 😬

Pourekos

I mostly use abilities (and few basic attacks)

Before I left ESO a few months ago, I tried to learn how to use weaving and AC, but I found them to be extremely unfun. So I accepted that my DPS ceiling would be X and I only did content that was within that number. The problem is though that what was supposedly my level of content (normal dungeons) became more and more difficult to the point that was simply not for me anymore. So between using a playstyle that I tried and I did not like at all (never mind changing it every few moths with all the rollercoaster class changes) or doing only overland content, I chose option C and took an extended break from ESO.

Stevie6

I mostly use abilities (and few basic attacks)

TheFM wrote: »

Stevie6 wrote: »

Low APM can also be associated with the ability to aim and hit the target. I think the current "hit box" on targets is way too small to make an accurate connection with a damage ability or weapon. Sometimes I find myself at point blank range and use a LA and nothing. Move the mouse just a fraction then it will hit. By making the hit box bigger by 50% might help with overall dps. Just saying.

The hit boxes are a mess. Sometimes I aim way off to the side and hit them, and sometimes I am pointing right at the center mass and the ability hits the enemy three meters to the left of them 😬

Aoe hit boxes are ok for the moment, but direct damage hit box sucks. Heh, maybe there should make direct damage hit box as big as the aoe hit box.

ZOS_FalcoYamaoka

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nublife01

None of the above

I voted none of the above dunno how yall showed it maybe I'm just new.

Well anyways I voted none of the above for one reason centrally: my utter devout hatred for stamblades. As of now we have managed to have each of their core abilities nerfed/"reworked" into utterly clunky incoherence and gave back half of their ultimate as some sort of sick joke. I mean even shadowy disguise only works half the time with the recent update (thank god I don't have to buy detect pots anymore). We have also nerfed almost everything outside of their core skill mechanics that the stamina class is more dependent upon than other stamina classes including blocking and tactician stun. However, recently we have discovered that stamina nightblades utilize light attack damage in their pressure damage excessively more than any other stamina class. I think once we nerf light attack damage we will have completely gutted the entire class. It just makes me smile and proud of ZOS seeing these nerfs to this annoying obnoxious class every other month on the forums.

VirtualElizabeth

Okay I asked this on another thread but no one seems to really know. What the heck is APM? I have been gone for a while FYI.

VirtualElizabeth

Found it! Actions Per Minute. So is there a meter for this or is all self reported?

Dusk_Coven

None of the above

I've tried it just to see what it's about and I still don't like it. Mostly because it really makes no sense.
Imagine if monsters used it. There'd be bug reports every minute. "The monster didn't even finish its swing and instead block-bashed me. And somehow I got hit three times! WTH?" "That archer didn't finish his draw and instead went into a block? When I didn't shoot anything at it? And I still got hit? WTH?"

Thevampirenight

I mostly use abilities (and few basic attacks)

Depends, Sometimes I don't even light attack at all, times I do sometimes I do use animation canceling but because there are times I just cast some abilties at a target. Yeah I would have to say option number three here.

JohnOfMarkarth

I mostly use abilities (and few basic attacks)

newtinmpls wrote: »

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

It would be useful for ZOS to know why people have low APM and why they choose to.

I have an average dex, slightly less than average now, as I am over 5 decades old.

You seem to have missed the point. Having a "low APM" is not about choice. It's about typing speed, dexterity, whatever you want to call it.

Edit: I have and use a gaming mouse. Yes, that does help some.
.

it is a question posed. because the solution offered by devs sounds and reads like if it was based on choice rather then technicality. (which, in some cases is a choice. but not by majority (And not for "i wanna stay noob" reasons that many vets presume)) When someone chooses to do so, why? when they dont choose to, why it still is like that.

But there is quite a few people who have either physiological or mental reason for low APM. Or mere gameplay preference, while many others see, and reasonably so, that performance is more bogus then latrines in medieval era, or that, and this is true, hit boxes were for some time... kindof a skyrim-level mess.

I do agree that this question can inevitably lead to the "bad people think they good, good think that everyone is or can be like them" paradox... but, while that is true... any information, in this turbulent time... could be useful imo.

Kinetiks

None of the above

my low apm is due to uncoordination between my left and right fingers on my right hand - as well as nervous impulse on my left thumb forcing me to repeatedly mash space bar. Sometimes in big fights in cyrodiil I get so anxious I even press C and open up my character sheet! I'm so happy to not worry about using mouse hand to attack because I can now use some of that processing power to concentrate on WASD!

jadarock

Am I the only one that feels like Zos reduced the apm the server even recognizes . Feels like it puts skills in a que half the time now. Hmmm...

thadjarvis

@JohnOfMarkarth
good poll

It appears that LA/HA balancing would have little to no effect for low APM.

From this limited poll data buffing ability damage and improving performance would seem to do more than LA/HA balancing (which isn't even clear as both are used by low APM).

RaptorRodeoGod

None of the above

I have mediumish-highish APM at the moment because dps. HOWEVER, I prefer low APM so I can focus on mechanics easier.

Edit: would probably go back to a heavy attack build of it were viable.

KMarble

None of the above

I suck at hitting the dummies, but am (becoming) less mediocre at dungeons and trials. I think the reason for my low APM while facing a dummy and higher APM in "real" game conditions has to do with the fact that I cannot maintain a rhythm.

I've created a rotation for my char, can keep that rotation up during fights, and still move around, roll dodge and/or block, which, according to the parameters given to measure APM, increases it for me during fights.

On a dummy, where I don't need to move/block/roll, my discombobulate-ness gets in the way and my APM goes down by a lot.

Merlin13KAGL

I have a couple thoughts to throw at this one.

First, there is still no good indicator in the game how to perform a weave well, nor any as to why it sometimes works and sometimes does not. When a LA doesn't "go off," it leaves newer people wondering if there's an issue with their network, their client, the server, or one of a dozen other arbitrary (and likely unrelated) items. A simple trainer, in the form of an NPC with actual feedback, would go miles towards remedying this.

It takes more than the load screen hint, the level up hint, or endless hours in front of a target dummy, likely doing the wrong thing repeatedly until it hopefully, magically clicks. The end result of this, most of the time, is the assumption one is not going fast enough, leading to increased click speed, leading to more missed attacks.

Other games manage to factor in reaction time without requiring perfected pace in a rotation. Games like Witcher and God of War allow visual cues with a limited timeframe that will boost your DPS or perform certain special actions. This allows quick reaction times to get boosted DPS or additional skill, thus providing a skill gap, without having timing set in stone.

You click a button or do a certain thing, based on the on-screen cue provided (which could be dynamic, truly requiring some level of 'skill' to perfect) and you get benefit. The better you're able to hit the cue, the better your character performs.

As it stands right now, for anyone having less than perfect APM, it's ridiculously hard to distinguish what the real cause is and how to improve it. Player trainers that assist with this sort of thing are great and much appreciated, but should not be necessary for all but the finest tuning of someone's DPS, once they are well beyond the basics and average DPS.

It takes more than a suggestion on the screen for someone to be able to achieve the high end, and a well built game will have an in game method with feedback to help players work towards that goal.

I don't even think it's about light's vs heavy's so much. The people that are higher end cannot remember not knowing how to do what probably comes naturally at this point, yet you can take two different people with otherwise identical builds, and they will produce a wide range of different results.

The Devs need to provide a better way to point out what those differences are, in game, and allow people to progress towards their own personal bests, without blindly hoping some "Eureka" moment will take place and their DPS will double.