What is your reason for low APM (if you consider yourself to be on this side of the equation)

JohnOfMarkarth

This is a question for those who consider themselves low APM, not for those who have high APM [snip] Thank you.

To help this whole situation... It would be useful for ZOS to know why people have low APM and why they choose to. Rather then jumping to conclusions.

So, give your reasons why too, please, thanks.

[Edited for baiting]

Qbiken

None of the above

Bad performance

IxSTALKERxI

None of the above

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

This is a question for those who consider themselves low APM, not for those who have high APM [snip]. Thank you.

To help this whole situation... It would be useful for ZOS to know why people have low APM and why they choose to. Rather then jumping to conclusions.

So, give your reasons why too, please, thanks.

Can't CC break for 5 minutes or crash before able to cast a second consecutive ability.

Irfind

I mostly use abilities (and few basic attacks)

I dont know where i belong

When i try weaving i noticed that i klick often too fast, the LA dosn't register.
In other MMOs i dont have this problem since they have auto attack.

JohnOfMarkarth

I mostly use abilities (and few basic attacks)

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Can't CC break for 5 minutes or crash before able to cast a second consecutive ability.

Oh buoy thats on a whole another level ... thats 'running crysis on a toaster' level mayhem With that instability its easier to play Mortal Kombat on a banana. Sorry to hear that

Fiktius

I mostly use heavy attacks in combat (and few abilities/potions)

My reason: I'm running PvP builds which has been designed around increasing sustaining with heavy attacks.

And this is one big reason why I'm not fan of these changes developers proposed, especially changes which are suggested for heavy attacks:

"Heavy Attacks no longer restore any resources."

This of course can be countered that I will just have to change my builds and start throwing in some light attacks, but it feels very punishing for someone whose many builds are entirely build around heavy attack sustaining.
As a return I will get of course more damage into my dizzy > medium/heavy attack > Onslaught > Executioner combo, but rendering heavy attack sustaining entirely useless sounds and feels very bad.

Which leads to my second point. At suggested changes to champion points they mentioned this:

"Tenacity: This Champion Point passive now increases the Magicka and Stamina restore of your Light Attacks by up to 20%, rather than increasing the Magicka and Stamina Restore of your fully charged Heavy Attacks by up to 15%."

Another terrible change from heavy attack build perspective. That's another CP which I can no longer rely on.
I could of course compensate and put more points soon to other CP stars instead, but that won't still help former heavy attack tenacity builds.

And from perspective of someone whose been playing with heavy attacks anyway, this passive effect of Bound Arnaments removal made me only laugh:

"Bound Armaments: This ability no longer increases the damage of your Light Attacks by 10% while slotted, since the ability already provides a strong bonus and active."

Possible light attacking Sorcs in PvP are receiving another nerf, which nobody asked for.
It's not like this class would be already strongest PvP classes among every possible other stam spec on the board.
Nerfing Stam Sorcs even further just feels bad and unjustified.
But hey, perhaps they could compensate somewhere and give Stam Sorcs a bone and for example rework class passives and give us reasons to put skill points on every class passive? One can only hope.

Also last quote from suggested changes:

"We’d like to emphasize the possibility of these changes never actually going into the game – we are simply testing and gathering feedback right now."

It is very nice that you are communicating with community, but many of us are already tired of constant changes what comes with in-game combat. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam Please reconsider.

LadyNalcarya

None of the above

Sometimes I'm lagging so hard that my skills do not work. Does this count?

TheFM

None of the above

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

This is a question for those who consider themselves low APM, not for those who have high APM [snip] Thank you.

To help this whole situation... It would be useful for ZOS to know why people have low APM and why they choose to. Rather then jumping to conclusions.

So, give your reasons why too, please, thanks.

I used to be low apm, but I practiced and changed input device, and viola, now high APM.

Be like this guy, don't [snip] expect the game to change.

https://youtu.be/N2SNwKvWiVc

[edited for baiting]

JohnOfMarkarth

I mostly use abilities (and few basic attacks)

TheFM wrote: »

used to be low apm, but I practiced and changed input device, and viola, now high APM.

Be like this guy, don't [snip] expect the game to change..

[snip]

i would like to refer you to the text i highlighted. For reasons obvious. (if you note. the poll is about why is it low and thats where it is.)
This is a poll for those specifically. Thanks.



Also. its funny how you refer to a fighting game. I am... or was... a veeery active, albeit learning MK11 player. So I know how "git gud" works in a game that feels rewarding for it--- but that IS NOT THE TOPIC AT HAND. thanks

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

None of the above

Personal choice.

First of all, a team worked hours to give us these animations, I am not about to disrespect their work by using an accidental mechanic.

Secondly, I paid for this tree-hugger, and I sure as heck want to see his animations lol (Warden)

But hey, if the situation calls for it (life or death), I will bust out a good weave, and when things calm down again return to my laid back playstyle. Usually only when a difficult mechanic pops up and no-one is staying out of red....

TheFM

None of the above

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

used to be low apm, but I practiced and changed input device, and viola, now high APM.

Be like this guy, don't be a whino and expect the game to change.

[snip]

i would like to refer you to the text i highlighted. For reasons obvious. (if you note. the poll is about why is it low and thats where it is.)
This is a poll for those specifically. Thanks.



Also. its funny how you refer to a fighting game. I am... or was... a veeery active, albeit learning MK11 player. So I know how "git gud" works in a game that feels rewarding for it--- but that IS NOT THE TOPIC AT HAND. thanks

And this game is known for its fast paced combat, it isnt wow, it isnt swtor, and thank sithis for that. These changes are not healthy for the game what so ever, and people that were bad before, will still be bad because they will still be required to weave for regen, otherwise they will lose out on dps because they will need to replace regen glyphs with damage glyphs in order to keep up wit hthe dps. Try to see the forest passed the trees.

JohnOfMarkarth

I mostly use abilities (and few basic attacks)

TheFM wrote: »

And this game is known for its fast paced combat, it isnt wow, it isnt swtor, and thank sithis for that. These changes are not healthy for the game what so ever, and people that were bad before, will still be bad because they will still be required to weave for regen, otherwise they will lose out on dps because they will need to replace regen glyphs with damage glyphs in order to keep up wit hthe dps. Try to see the forest passed the trees.

I have no problem repeating myself. Theres other posts that ask for "git gud input" and other threads that are already ripe with it.

not for those who have high APM and wanna bash down and call others "git gud". Go somewhere else for that. Theres plenty of those threads. Thank you.

This poll asks a question and wants to see answers to that question and why it is so. Not discuss vet's preferences on future changes. you have two tons of threads on the ready for that. So please respect the topic proposed by the threat. thanks. (not to mention that this poll doesnt mention if the changes are good, it merely asks a question)

And those who did answer rather then redirect, so far, thank you

Barbaran

None of the above

It's not low apm vs high apm.
The problem is preformance.
The game lags so bad that it registers 2-3 attacks to hit all at the same time and the less experienced player thinks that it was animation cancelling.
Fixing the real issue would solve a LOT of 'balance' issues

Hanokihs

None of the above

I'm probably lower-middle and play on console. I can do mechanics well after I've run the content a couple of times - if the mechanics decide to be visible. I largely duo with another person and, for the most part, the only content we haven't progressed through is vet dlc and trials. But holy cow is there a huge amount of combat lag.

Half the time, my light attacks don't register. I sometimes have to press the barswap two or three times, and in the meantime, I'm either not attacking or using the wrong abilities because they didn't switch. The game likes to eat my ultimate at the worst possible time. And when I'm using a character with a lightning staff, the heavy attack just doesn't start at all when I push the button.

I don't mind the proposed changes, but they have bigger issues to fix if they wanna help players like me who sometimes struggle to improve.

katorga

None of the above

Since the last major patch, I am finding skills and abilities fail to fire, even in PVE. It is noticiable how often I have to spam a button to get something to go off. So there is that. On the plus side, next patch when I accidentally do consecutive LA because skills failed to fire, I'll get sustain.

A minority of content and a minority of guilds require obessive levels of weaving play. Most of the pve content I can solo with a minimal, 1 bar heavy attack build. PVP is another animal, but performance is so bad there that you may be forced to be low APM against your will.

icefyer_ESO

None of the above

I have cerebral palsy, which gives me mild hand tremors and sometimes makes my fingers a bit stiff. I physically can't keep up with the required button-spam due to my condition. I usually play healers partially because I don't need to burn out my fingers to the point of aching and cramping just to get an acceptable level of DPS. I already had to bind half my ability bar to mouse thumb buttons because I have a hard time reaching past the number 4 on my keyboard.

mairwen85

icefyer_ESO wrote: »

I have cerebral palsy, which gives me mild hand tremors and sometimes makes my fingers a bit stiff. I physically can't keep up with the required button-spam due to my condition. I usually play healers partially because I don't need to burn out my fingers to the point of aching and cramping just to get an acceptable level of DPS. I already had to bind half my ability bar to mouse thumb buttons because I have a hard time reaching past the number 4 on my keyboard.

Have you tried one of these:

https://www.xbox.com/en-US/accessories/controllers/xbox-adaptive-controller

Ye_Olde_Crowe

None of the above

Well, three factors:

1) Age.
My reflexes aren't what they were in the mid-nineties to early 00s when I was a competitive gamer.

2) Health.
Might be related to 1). Sometimes my finger joints are killing me, sometimes they are not. And no, I don't want to play PC games with a controller, attribute that to being stubborn because of 1). I do, however, play console games with controllers; somehow my fingers don't think that's any better.

3) Potato.
My PC is pre-stone age, perhaps even triassic. At least my GPU is. All that's saving me from total destruction (i.e. not being able to play PC games at all) is a decent amount of RAM. The highest number of frames I have in ESO is ~35, and that's when I'm in one of my very own homes. In Rimmen, for example, my FPS oscillate between 15 (when I'm lucky) and 1 (in that very special corner of the Dragonguard Sanctum).

icefyer_ESO

None of the above

mairwen85 wrote: »

Have you tried one of these:

https://www.xbox.com/en-US/accessories/controllers/xbox-adaptive-controller

I actually have a Corsair mouse with 12 thumb buttons that works quite well, since I was pretty much raised on a keyboard and mouse, so I can use both hands to move / aim and activate abilities rather than having to stretch only my left hand.

icefyer_ESO

None of the above

Ye_Olde_Crowe wrote: »

3) Potato.
My PC is pre-stone age, perhaps even triassic. At least my GPU is. All that's saving me from total destruction (i.e. not being able to play PC games at all) is a decent amount of RAM. The highest number of frames I have in ESO is ~35, and that's when I'm in one of my very own homes. In Rimmen, for example, my FPS oscillate between 15 (when I'm lucky) and 1 (in that very special corner of the Dragonguard Sanctum).

Wow. May I ask why you haven't tried upgrading it?

mairwen85

icefyer_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Have you tried one of these:

https://www.xbox.com/en-US/accessories/controllers/xbox-adaptive-controller

I actually have a Corsair mouse with 12 thumb buttons that works quite well, since I was pretty much raised on a keyboard and mouse, so I can use both hands to move / aim and activate abilities rather than having to stretch only my left hand.

At least you have something (a fine sounding setup too). Many don't, or aren't even aware of the kit out there that can improve their enjoyment. I do a lot of promotional work for a charity that provides adapted and bespoke controllers for individuals with all kinds of disabilities. It's an area that is often overlooked, but now the big boys like MS are getting into it, there is a lot more interest and diversity in available range. The MS adaptive controller is great in that you can modify and extend it with all manner of adaptations and essentially build a controller specific to individual needs.

TheFM

None of the above

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

And this game is known for its fast paced combat, it isnt wow, it isnt swtor, and thank sithis for that. These changes are not healthy for the game what so ever, and people that were bad before, will still be bad because they will still be required to weave for regen, otherwise they will lose out on dps because they will need to replace regen glyphs with damage glyphs in order to keep up wit hthe dps. Try to see the forest passed the trees.

I have no problem repeating myself. Theres other posts that ask for "git gud input" and other threads that are already ripe with it.

not for those who have high APM and wanna bash down and call others "git gud". Go somewhere else for that. Theres plenty of those threads. Thank you.

This poll asks a question and wants to see answers to that question and why it is so. Not discuss vet's preferences on future changes. you have two tons of threads on the ready for that. So please respect the topic proposed by the threat. thanks. (not to mention that this poll doesnt mention if the changes are good, it merely asks a question)

And those who did answer rather then redirect, so far, thank you

Saying people should practice is not bashing by any measure.

Ye_Olde_Crowe

None of the above

icefyer_ESO wrote: »

Wow. May I ask why you haven't tried upgrading it?

Because I can still play all the games I want to play, and I'm used to these framerates. I even play R6S with a bunch of friends (PVE only, though), and while I experience some lag once in a while, my overall experience is decent.

Okay, so my son is laughing at my pretty basic visuals, but, hey, he has a brand-new gaming machine while my GPU is from 2008. And I bet if he had to play a tournament with a broken keyboard and broken sound card as I did back in ... uh ... pre-Source CS/pre-QW Team Fortress times, he wouldn't win. These pampered kids nowadays are so dependent on sound and the M key ...

I'll probably get a 'new' rig in May when hubby retires one of his data center servers.

Nord_Raseri

I mostly use Light Attacks in combat (and few abilities/potions)

Lots of nerve damage. I am actualy on the medium/lower medium spectrum and it took me a long time and a lot of fine tuning to get there. This is as it should be. Nerfing anyone or anything isn't going to change that. Especially when I'm actually taking a huge nerf, to the point where I'm not sure what I'd even do in this game anymore(Tanking dungeons/trials got a bit boring for me after a couple years). I guess I'll see when we get there.

JohnOfMarkarth

I mostly use abilities (and few basic attacks)

TheFM wrote: »

Saying people should practice is not bashing by any measure.

the other part of my response explains other reasons...
There is many such threads already and there is 0 need to bring a broken vinyl record to every thread possible. We know opinion of the vets already. We all do. And it isnt the point, reason... or anything... that adds to this poll. Thank you yet again.

Also...

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

Lots of nerve damage. I am actualy on the medium/lower medium spectrum and it took me a long time and a lot of fine tuning to get there. This is as it should be. Nerfing anyone or anything isn't going to change that. Especially when I'm actually taking a huge nerf, to the point where I'm not sure what I'd even do in this game anymore(Tanking dungeons/trials got a bit boring for me after a couple years). I guess I'll see when we get there.

I agree with you. And am sorry to hear about nerve damage.



So far problem people have mostly lies in:

1) game performance (this should imply to the devs that combat changes should be on hold 'till this is resolved 99,99%)
2) Physical real life issues (cant help that but am sorry to hear it, in case of biological issues. in case of old hardware.. well)
3) then theres me and @Scion_of_Yggdrasil whom think alike. and some others in the abilities field

but technical ingame issues strongly prevail. I would like to point this out to ZOS:

So far... it is likely that the whole issue you wanna fix with lowering of ceiling... are, unnecessary and risky right now. Since performance is the issue

ZeroXFF

I mostly use abilities (and few basic attacks)

I'm not actually using just abilities. If you meet me in game, I'd look like a high APM player. But that is what my physical inputs are. I would much rather not do what I have to do to make up the difference.

RaunHunter

None of the above

Many people immediately associate not wanting to LA-weave or AC to inability or unwillingness to learn it. I did learn to weave and AC, because the game essentially demanded it and I didn't want to be a dead-weight when I entered a vDLC or vTrial.

However, I don't find it fun. When it is not necessary, I'm very much a low to mid-APM player by choice. I would rather I do an acceptable amount of damage without having to do either of those things. Not asking for the best damage; that can still be left to those who want to weave and AC to maximize their output. But something acceptable so that I don't feel like I'm swinging a wet noodle every time I'm not stress-testing my fingers.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

None of the above

RaunHunter wrote: »

Many people immediately associate not wanting to LA-weave or AC to inability or unwillingness to learn it. I did learn to weave and AC, because the game essentially demanded it and I didn't want to be a dead-weight when I entered a vDLC or vTrial.

However, I don't find it fun. When it is not necessary, I'm very much a low to mid-APM player by choice. I would rather I do an acceptable amount of damage without having to do either of those things. Not asking for the best damage; that can still be left to those who want to weave and AC to maximize their output. But something acceptable so that I don't feel like I'm swinging a wet noodle every time I'm not stress-testing my fingers.

I guess I should clarify, I also hate weaving because I do not like the way it feels. I too learned how and use it on occasion, but its not just out of respect/love of the animations that I most of the time refuse.

If I wanted to play bop it, I'd go buy it... but I bought ESO instead. Such a psychically demanding ACCIDENTAL feature should not be such a key part of the game. Hand eye coordination is always going to be a part of any video game, but asking players to subject their hands and fingers to such carpal tunnel ridden habits... thank you, next. I already type an unholy amount for work every day, the last thing I wanna do is put more strain on my hands when I am trying to enjoy a game.

JohnOfMarkarth

I mostly use abilities (and few basic attacks)

RaunHunter wrote: »

Many people immediately associate not wanting to LA-weave or AC to inability or unwillingness to learn it. I did learn to weave and AC, because the game essentially demanded it and I didn't want to be a dead-weight when I entered a vDLC or vTrial.

However, I don't find it fun. When it is not necessary, I'm very much a low to mid-APM player by choice. I would rather I do an acceptable amount of damage without having to do either of those things. Not asking for the best damage; that can still be left to those who want to weave and AC to maximize their output. But something acceptable so that I don't feel like I'm swinging a wet noodle every time I'm not stress-testing my fingers.

(couldnt agree more, myself actually)

Fur_like_snow

Some of you really need a gaming mouse and it shows.

Nord_Raseri

I mostly use Light Attacks in combat (and few abilities/potions)

@TheFM I don't think OP's point was a call for having ZOS' horrible idea to move forward, rather to see various reasons why some of us are low/med APM. I myself am medium, and at most times the very low end of medium APM, and I'm fully against ZOS' proposed changes. Don't assume that just because we can't fluidly AC and be able to weave flawlessly, that we'd want combat mechanics to be turned on it's head. I really don't think that's the point of this thread.